Charizard X [2/3]

[Srn]

I've used both offensive and bulky, and personally, I'd say its enough that A DD set in general is the first set. Yeah, bulky-wisp is some of the greatest shit of all time, but char-x is just so much better than other DD'ers it's a waste for it not to be the first set.

If we're talking about whether offensive or bulky should go first, i'd say bulky. Its decent defensive typing lets it set up on many electrics and char-y. Checking char-y is especially notable as char-x is not pursuit trapped, unlike lati@s.
In general, speed and power is gained slower with bulky zard-x, but now you get to use its typing and STABs to weaken its own checks and pivot and help check stuff in general. That kind of flexibility, with the set-up opportunities that bulky zard x has, is way too much to give up for getting speed and power quicker and hitting heatran.

 

[Swamp Link]

Just chirping that I also think Bulky DD is the most influential set in the metagame and the most effective.

 

[Oilpath99]

If Bulky DD is first, then Flare Blitz HAS to be a slash.

 

[Amaan]

If Bulky DD is first, then Flare Blitz HAS to be a slash.

This needs to happen, or at least be a mention in the description.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dont-use-that-use-this-xy-ou-edition.3499671/page-9
See post 234

 

[Baharoth]

Just a minor nitpick but the Willow Zard Set doesnt need 112 Speed EVs, 108 EVs equal a speed stat of 263 outspeeding Adamant Gyarados (261) and Jolly Bisharp (262).

Also i recommend you give Dragon Tail another thought for the set because its very good. There are so many things out there that cant touch Charizard at all (Hi Rotom-w) to get a free switch in and Dragon Tail is perfect to hit the opponent with when he switches out to a check or counter. Depending on RNG you can rack up incredible amounts of dmg on his team before the opponent gets something in that can stop you, especialy with rocks on the field. Flare Blitz is more than enough to punch holes into things (especialy fairys that think they can stop your Dragon Tail), the dragon coverage is rarely needed anyway as most of the things that resist Flare Blitz force you out no matter what like other Dragons and Watertypes like Keldeo and such.

 

[Subject 18]

Actually I was supposed to change the spread to hit Mega Tyranitar which is at 265.

As for Dragon Tail, I don't think its as great as you make it. With dragon tail, your main stab has a negative priority and leaves you more open to taking damage from things slower than you. Sure you phaze things in and out, but when stall doesn't stack hazards to be effective it's not really worth the trouble to get off 12% from Sr and the Dragon Tail damage.

If other qc members really want me to put it back on, I can. But I talked with both dice and cbb and it was decided that Dragon claw is much better.

Also Ill have this written up by tomorrow.

 

[Baharoth]

Well imo Dragon Tail should only be used together with Flare Blitz as your main stab attack. It wouldnt work to well with EQ or Fire Punch since you have nothing to realy deal immediate dmg if you need to and Fairys would simply stop your phazing attempts completely. I wouldnt call it an alternative to Dragon Claw because just changing one move isnt working to well, its more like a different set with different goals. The standard set from the analysis has DC as its main stab and EQ/Firepunch for coverage, the DT set has Flare Blitz as its main stab and DT for utility. I think its worth a mention in the move section. Slashing it is not a good idea anyway so I dont request that.

 

[dbzeenx]

It'd be nice if you mentioned Fire Punch and Thunderpunch for its moveset. Plus, it can learn some good moves like brick break, power-up punch, dragon tail, shadow claw, defog, seismic toss, mega kick, mega punch, body slam, crunch, or even a special move. It still has that 130 base special attack to attack phyisical walls, remember?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Are you sure that Dragon Tail doesn't at least deserve an Other Options mention? I've tried it on the bulky set before, and it's not too bad. I definitely prefer Dragon Claw most of the time, but it's pretty neat if you can keep hazards on the field.

Also, you have 4 too many EVs on the bulky set, so just dropping the SpD to 140 will fix that.

EDIT @ above: Most of those moves are terrible, though. Neither Brick Break, Crunch, nor Shadow Claw offer any noticeable coverage, and Power-Up Punch is outclassed as a boosting move by Dragon Dance. Mega Punch and Mega Kick are both terrible moves that should never be run on anything, much less Charizard, and they also do not offer any coverage that Charizard couldn't get otherwise. Seismic Toss is bad on a Pokemon with such a good damage output as Charizard. Defog is better pulled off by Pokemon that don't have a 4x Stealth Rock weakness, and Charizard doesn't have much room for it anyway. Special moves might have a little merit, but they're already mentioned in Other Options. Thunder Punch and Fire Punch are also mentioned in the analysis; heck, Fire Punch has a slash on two of the sets. Dragon Tail is the only one that hasn't already been mentioned that might deserve to be.

 

[Amaan]

It'd be nice if you mentioned Fire Punch and Thunderpunch for its moveset. Plus, it can learn some good moves like brick break, power-up punch, dragon tail, shadow claw, defog, seismic toss, mega kick, mega punch, body slam, crunch, or even a special move. It still has that 130 base special attack to attack phyisical walls, remember?

Most of those moves are awful on Zard X, IMO the only viable moves are:

- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Will-O-Wisp

 

[Srn]

Most of those moves are awful on Zard X, IMO the only viable moves are:

- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Roost
- Dragon Dance

You forgot Will-O-Wisp :]

 

[megabackingengar]

Why isn't HP grass getting a mentioned at all?It allows char x to beat that stupid quagsire.Not being on a main set is fine but not even OO?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

The only problem I have with HP Grass is that it's so insanely niche. It does well against Quagsire without locking yourself into Outrage, but that's about it. While using Outrage > Dragon Claw might render you setup bait for some Pokemon whenever you trap yourself into the move, it makes up for it with a 50% increase in power that honestly makes Charizard X even scarier for some teams. It also leaves a free moveslot open so that you don't have to give up Roost or Earthquake in order to get past Quagsire.

 

[Amaan]

Why is there a new spread all the sudden

 

[RotomPoison]

a few relevant Choice Scarf users (Excadrill, Landorus-T, Kyurem-B, Garchomp, etc) that can outrun and KO Charizard-X after a boost, and it appreciates the extra power to massacre through bulkier threats. Choosing the Jolly nature allows Charizard-X to win against the most of the aforementioned Scarf users

Should probably remove that

 

[Subject 18]

The old one was outdated and there is a better one. Don't worry, I'll write it up soon.

Also, I'm not mentioning HP Grass on this at all, there is no benefit to running it because you won't always see Quagsire. HP Grass on Zard X is equivalent to GK on Bisharp, its a counter team set for tournament play where you absolutely know they will bring Quagsire. Not to mention that you miss out on Roost or a coverage move which is sub-optimal.

Should probably remove that

Remove Garchomp as a check????? Why??????

 

[RotomPoison]

Remove Garchomp as a check????? Why??????

The way that's worded makes it sound like running Jolly would let you outspeed

 

[Amaan]

How is the old one outdated

 

[Jukain]

may as well go up to 108 evs in case of random jolly loom speed ties

 

[BurningMan]

may as well go up to 108 evs in case of random jolly loom speed ties

How about 120 for Jolly M TTar?

 

[Srn]

How about 120 for Jolly M TTar?

If we're gonna aim to outpace base 71, then we might as well outspeed heatran too.
(and next we aim to outspeed base 80s ugh this is getting nowhere.)

 

[BurningMan]

If we're gonna aim to outpace base 71, then we might as well outspeed heatran too.
(and next we aim to outspeed base 80s ugh this is getting nowhere.)

There is literally no reason to outspeed max speed Heatran since it is almost non-existant and you can't hurt it anyway while Max Speed M-TTar is a very real threat that you might not be able to hit incredibly hard, but being able to hit it first can be extremely valuable in numerous scenarios.

 

[Amaan]

I think we should just revert it back to the old set. Outspending Mega Ttar is great.

 

[Srn]

There is literally no reason to outspeed max speed Heatran since it is almost non-existant and you can't hurt it anyway while Max Speed M-TTar is a very real threat that you might not be able to hit incredibly hard, but being able to hit it first can be extremely valuable in numerous scenarios.

Ah, you're right, my bad.
But as far as base 80s go, mamoswine could be a target to outpace. He's becoming more common nowadays.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Ah, you're right, my bad.
But as far as base 80s go, mamoswine could be a target to outpace. He's becoming more common nowadays.

How many speed evs would you need to outspeed a max speed base 80 after a DD? Just curious.