Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[Jacks0n]

Drought torterra: not sure how this works falvour wise but k. No sun summoner is going to get much viability because of the simple fact of zard y. Zard y summons its own sun and abuses it so well. If anything I think theorymon should look into a hail abuser more.

Protean Starmie: This thing would be good, a fast hard hitting pokemon sith spin. Somewhat outclassed by ninja that has slightly better sp.attack and speed but starmie would have spim, but in all honesty I don't think the meta needs another protean abuser.

Fur coat skuntank: Works flavur wise, very bulky deffoger and would be a solid poke. Once again a deffoger that stops bisharp, but since hydriegon was so recent.. Im not sure.

Unuware Coballion: This things typing just holds it back to much. Cool, its facing a zard x at +1 with unuware so that the boosts are irrelevent, but flare blitz ohko's and coballion can't do nothin. Same with dragonite and mega gyara, they have eq for coveredge.

:( this is a pretty averedge slate.

 

[-Flygon-]

Um... What on God's green Earth would Drought Torterra even do? A subpar SpA stat, so Solarbeam won't do anything, no fire type moves besides HP fire, and completely and utterly outclassed in OU, home of the possibly best weather setter in the game, who happens to be for sun. If I'm missing something let me know, but Torterra looks like outclassed garbage tbqh. More opinions later. Sorry HolyAvatar, good thought.

 

[Chronobreak]

Drought torterra: this seems pretty cool as a solid sun setter, but it's offensive presence would probably be quite lacking.



Protean Starmie: Really fast and strong offensive power lets this starfish play around different pokemon. Aegislash comes to the top of my head when Starmie uses normal type rapid spin, than gets off powerful psychic attack on its frail blade form, while taking a possible incoming sacred sword.



Fur Coat Skuntank: This thing seems to be pure gold on paper. A great typing paired with defog and fur coat might this the bulkiest defogger OU has seen so far. Oh, and it's not pursuit weak.


Unaware Cobalion: I can't really tell how useful this could be yet, similarities a later post.


Really cool slate!

 

[escarlata]

Drought Torterra is pretty cool minus the fact that it can't actually make good use of the Sun itself, and doesn't have a switching move, which means the opponent can easily switch into a counter to the predicted sweeper without having to predict.

Protean Starmie is really fabulous. It's biggest enemy, Aegislash no longer threatens it, especially if it switch in to the spin. Losing the Psychic typing alone is really fantastic for Starmie. Overall, it is decent for the spinner role, but is still outclassed by Greninja for sweeping.

Fur Coat Stuntank is a great Pursuit trapper by virtue of its typing, except most targets that it wants to trap are special attackers. So the only use it might have is as a Defogger that beats both Bisharp and Thundurus, which is quite impressive, since Defog Hydreigon only beats one of them.

Unaware Cobalion beats practically all set up sweepers minus Charizard-X and Mega Gyara. Tyranitar? Check. Dragonite? Thunder Wave. Azumarill? Lol. Pinsir? Stone Edge. Defiant Bisharp and Thundurus? Not a problem. CM Clefable is nothing. Diggersby and Talonflame struggle hard to do anything. Kabutops is nothing. Unaware + Thunder Wave is just a good combination, especially on something that can hit most sweepers SE.

Either Protean Starmie or Cobalion does it for me this round imo

 

[Axa]

One possible drawback I could see to Protean Starmie is that most of its type conversions are pretty unfavourable defensively - Normal, Ice and Psychic are pretty bad in particular.

Still, great coverage and speed, only really lacking a switching move. Thunderbolt also immunizes it from paralysis while Dazzling Gleam makes it immune to Dragon. It has a lot of potential.

 

[Gerard]

She gets Electric, Ghost, Water & Fairy conversions too, all of them with great offensive & defensive moves & she has better bulk & recover so she can even make for a bulky(er) protean user if she so wanted to. Unlike greninja Starmie has lots and lots of options: Dual Screens, Bulky Spinner, Revenge Killer, Late game Cleaner, etc...

 

[Jacks0n]

honestly, coballion would not be good. With no recovery and good defence but not great it would be worn down so easily and couldn't stand up to the threat at the end of the game. Most sweepers run eq and could quite comfortably get through coballion. Coballion is an easy set-up bait for zard x and would be easy prey. Diggersby easily KO's coballion with a stab life orb EQ aswell. As ive said earlier, coballions defence, although good isnt great and would suffer from stab life orb waterfalls from kabutops in rain aswell as nuetral play roughs and waterfalls from azum! Not only that but lots of special attackers would punish it because of its middling sp.defence, it can not touch lando i/t either. Protean starmie is just too alike greninja and would not be good for the meta. Sorry if I seem like a party pooper, but its true.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

All right, I'm back!

Drought Torterra: A curse set with sun boosted synthesis sounds like its best shot to me, but those weaknesses; fire, flying, ice. Those aren't exactly rare and giving a fire type incentive to switch in is asking for trouble. It has STAB EQ for that, but the 3 biggest fire types either fly, or commonly run a balloon. Probably won't get my vote.

Protean Starmie: Still in love. Starmie's already a very underrated mon this gen, as its main problem is being outclassed by excadrill and greninja. This ability fixes that big time. Fast speed lets it change types prior to a lot of opponents' moves, so it can ensure a type advantage with decent prediction, and will have significant survivability. Add recover, and you have a great tank (though that normal type could be a problem). You've also got the insanity of STAB Bolt Beam, mixed with a very fast mon, so offense is an option too (though even with STAB, it would appreciate more power). Finally the utility of rapid spin. Really, this is just one of the most interesting options I've seen yet.

Fur Coat Skuntank: Fur coat will turn anything into a great physical tank. My biggest fear is lack of recovery. A toxic stall with rest could be an option, but there's quite a few special attackers that can 2HKO him. I'm going to wait til I hear Chou's reasoning to pass judgement.

Unaware Cobalion: While it certainly doesn't hurt, I don't quite see how this makes it OU material. Unboosted EQs still 2HKO or worse, both Charizards take it to school, its special bulk is underwhelming, as are its offenses. The best use I can think that this will give it is be able to buy it a free turn against a sweeper so it can set up a SD, but its speed tier is less significant than it was, so sweeping will be difficult. Maybe its utility moves?

Still solidly on Team Starmie, but I'm looking forward to the discussion for all of them.

 

[totoTavros]

Grassy, can you elaborate on why Protean Starmie would not be good for the meta? Greninja seems to be doing fine...

 

[Aquaslash]

Protean Starmie would be like, the best spinner ever. Pretty sure it can pack something to wreck both Greninja and Excadrill, now that its getting STAB on it.

 

[alexwolf]

I will give a few hints, because i see many people are missing the point:

Drought Torterra: Amazing synergy with Fire Pokemon, being able to check or counter Pokemon such as Excadrill, Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Landorus, Azumarill, Keldeo, Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Garchomp, Kabutops, Quagsire, and more, all Pokemon that can give troubles to offensive Fire-types. Synthesis in sun is a reliable 66% healing move, allowing Torterra to use Heat Rock for extended sunlight. SR and Roar are great support options, and Torterra has very good power and STABs. It's an excellent way to support Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Houndoom, offensive Heatran, Chlorophyll Venusaur, and many other sun sweepers that were unable to function due to the lack of a good sun setter (Mega Char Y doesn't count, 5 turns just isn't enough).

Unaware Cobalion: Checks Belly Drum Azumarill, SD Bisharp, CM Clefable, SD Excadrill, SD Mega Mawile, SD Mega Pinsir, BU Talonflame, DD Mega Tyranitar, DD Dragonite, SD Scolipede, SD Garchomp, and SD Kabutops way better.

 

[totoTavros]

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 455-538 (125.6 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 281-333 (98.2 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
It already can...

 

[HolyAvatar]

About my submission:
-Torterra has good 92/105/85 defenses and resists edge quake (which means easy to pair with fire types). Chesnaught is deemed viable with extremely similar resistances and stat spread.
-Acces to leech seed and synthesis (66%) with resistance to SR ensure resilence.
-This would open up easier acces to mega houndoom/charX/Volcarona for sun teams.
-Physical orientation (woodhammer+edgequake), typing and speed tier differentiate it a lot from ninetails.
-It does also work very well with charY.
-Its 56 speed is bad but I guess it would run a defensive spread anyway.
-His attack stat is good enough (109) not to be setup bait especially with high powered moves namely earthquake, woodhammer and stone edge.
-Hello sun stall? A torterra/heatran core could be very good (you can even throw in gyarados/rotom-w for a FGW core).


Flavor wise it is a fucking ecosystem.

Edit: Alexwolf was much more convincing giving a list of top tier threats it checks/counters.

 

[Jacks0n]

I will give a few hints, because i see many people are missing the point:

Drought Torterra: Amazing synergy with Fire Pokemon, being able to check or counter Pokemon such as Excadrill, Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Landorus, Azumarill, Keldeo, Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Garchomp, Kabutops, Quagsire, and more, all Pokemon that can give troubles to offensive Fire-types. Synthesis in sun is a reliable 66% healing move, allowing Torterra to use Heat Rock for extended sunlight. SR and Roar are great support options, and Torterra has very good power and STABs. It's an excellent way to support Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Houndoom, offensive Heatran, Chlorophyll Venusaur, and many other sun sweepers that were unable to function due to the lack of a good sun setter (Mega Char Y doesn't count, 5 turns just isn't enough).

Unaware Cobalion: Checks Belly Drum Azumarill, SD Bisharp, CM Clefable, SD Excadrill, SD Mega Mawile, SD Mega Pinsir, BU Talonflame, DD Mega Tyranitar, DD Dragonite, SD Scolipede, SD Garchomp, and SD Kabutops way better.

no coballion cant really touch any of those pokes. I think mega mawhile OHKO's defencive coballion after sr with play rough and no boosts. It may check them slightly better but still not well, seriously tho, a lot of those pokemon wreck coballion with their stabs with no boosts.

 

[alexwolf]

no coballion cant really touch any of those pokes. I think mega mawhile OHKO's defencive coballion after sr with play rough and no boosts. It may check them slightly better but still not well, seriously tho, a lot of those pokemon wreck coballion with their stabs with no boosts.

Thunder Wave, Iron Head, Close Combat, Stone Edge, and Hidden Power Ice can deal with most of those Pokemon. Also, Cobalion shouldn't be used as a switch-in against Pokemon that have super effective STAB against him, rather as a failsafe that no matter how many boosts those Pokemon have, Cobalion will be able to take on hit and go for the OHKO, or deal with some of them after they have been weakened (Belly Drum Azumarill).

 

[Jacks0n]

After alewwolfs post I will probs go with torterra, not that it is suddenly very viable but he made some good points. And what im saying with starmie/gren is that how about we add a fighting water pokemon with slightly lower special attack and speed than keldeo but it has secret sword and hydro pump and learns rapid spin. It is very similiar to gren and is an amazing wallbreaker like keldeo but also rapid spin. It is just that starmie with protean would be so similiar to gren and people would strt running 'protean spam' for all we know. I just don't think it would be good for the meta because they would be so similiar. I probably didnt explain that well lol but oh well

 

[Axa]

After looking over some calcs, Torterra does seem like a pretty cool pivot, and a physically defensive spread seems like it can do quite a lot. Talonflame is just going to murder the poor thing with auto-Sun, but that's what you have five other Pokemon for I suppose. As long as the rest of your team can support its weaknesses it should be able to hold its own, and the fact that it's a sun-setter that resists SR is gold for sun teams.

I'd probably lean towards a defensive Starmie with high speed rather than a heavily offensive one - Greninja is still the better pivot, although Starmie does have that delicious Thunderbolt STAB. It's still much more easily worn down by Toxic, since the only way for Starmie to become immune to it is running Toxic itself, and it also loses Natural Cure in the conversion. Offensive Starmie is also really cool and Life Orb variants can OHKO Dragonite even through Multiscale, or OHKO Azumarill with Thunderbolt.

 

[Jacks0n]

Thunder Wave, Iron Head, Close Combat, Stone Edge, and Hidden Power Ice can deal with most of those Pokemon. Also, Cobalion shouldn't be used as a switch-in against Pokemon that have super effective STAB against him, rather as a failsafe that no matter how many boosts those Pokemon have, Cobalion will be able to take on hit and go for the OHKO, or deal with some of them after they have been weakened (Belly Drum Azumarill).

but why use it as a failsafe when you can have clefable/quag that can switch in and still be a failsafe. I just don't see what it can do that clefable/quag can't.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Duh, sorry guys, I didn't give Torterra nearly enough credit. Guess I'm way too used to chary

SR support to break sashes and such, sun, an automatic threat to sun's biggest threat; Heatran, this guy's obviously meant for team play.

Still would've liked a grass type that could use its own sun a bit more, but dealing with Heatran's worth it.

 

[Salemance]

I enjoy Torterra in many regards through monotype play to lots of other junk I do and to see him become a team player seems natural for him (at least more useful than that of Harvest) and can see him running some interesting options to help aid his fire and grass brethren.

Im not really interested in yet another Protean user who doesn't do a lot more than Greninja (besides ya know, actually having rapid spin and not rumored for it) but I don't see a hazard clearer being necessary for this one much if at all.

Skuntank could love that ability.......but its a nother defogger. I love his utility, but don't know how this will affect him personally ( If he did win, I would love to abuse a bulky pivot set as he would most certainly capitalize on it expertly).

I never really liked Coballion and cant get behind this one cause of it. sorry there yall, but I just cant.

 

[escarlata]

but why use it as a failsafe when you can have clefable/quag that can switch in and still be a failsafe. I just don't see what it can do that clefable/quag can't.

It can actually kill them and the subsequent switch ins instead of just forcing them out

 

[pika pal]

Starmie reminds me of the rumors earlier this ten that Greninja could get Rapid Spin, and in a sense, that is sort of how Starmie would function. While it would certainly sit at a lower speed tier and be very slightly less powerful, Starmie's access to reliable recovery, coupled with the ability to change its less than ideal typing would make it one of the only Spinners that can sort of take on Aegislash (Balloon stopping Excadrill), the most common ghost and Spinblocker (to my knowledge).

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 136-161 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(This assuming it predicts the switch)

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 212-250 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If Starmie became a Normal Type Spinning on the switch-in.)
Aegislash can't use its Ghost moves in that case, and SE SS needs those hazards or LO recoil to kill. But Starmie changes type before Slash attacks so:
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 106-125 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Neutral)
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 183-216 (70.1 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Neutral)
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 53-62 (20.3 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO (Turned to a Psychic type. Inadvisable since Shadow Ball is easy to use on predicted Type Change)
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 70-84 (26.8 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Granted, the match-up is shaky, but Starmie at least isn't doomed now, and can actually beat Aegislash on the switch if its already taken some prior damage. It also helps alleviate Starmie's power loss with the Special Move nerfs.


Also, unlike Greninja (and LOL Kecleon), Starmie has reliable recovery, which means it could put Protean to some kind of defensive use to differentiate itself from Greninja. Granted, it would need to resist those hits to make use of it, but the niche is there regardless.


Protean Starmie to me seems like a Pokemon that CAN be more unique with the ability than Greninja, but requires a lot of prediction to justify using it over Greninja.

 

[Valmanway]

Drought Torterra: He has a few traits above Mega Charizard Y, such as powered up Synthesis, STAB Earthquake, lacks a Stealth Rock weakness, and has pretty solid defenses. Magnified Fire weakness, 4x Ice weakness, 2x Flying and Bug weaknesses, low Speed, and vastly inferior power make him too outclassed in comparison. I'd only ever want another Drought user if I wanted Mega Venusaur on the team. He poses little threat to most of the top tier threats such as both Mega Charizards, Landorus, Deoxys-D, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Mega Scizor, Greninja, and quite a few others, and would really struggle to stand out. He can OHKO Heatran, which is a pretty notable trait over Mega Charizard Y, but that's pretty much it.

Protean Starmie: Loving this idea. STAB BoltBeam coverage was nothing but a dream, but now it's all too possible. Getting rid of the Psychic-typing really help when facing foes with Pirsuit and Sucker Punch, and having often forgotten options such as Flash Cannon and Dazzling Gleam possibly providing new use for defensive sets could really prove interesting. What held Starmie back as a defensive presence was its Psychic-typing, but becoming a Steel- or Fairy-type on the spot can have a lot of versatility as a defensive threat, and Hidden Power can seriously provide defensive potential. This is absolutely going to get my vote.

Fur Coat Skuntank: This makes for a surprisingly decent tank when donning as Assault Vest, but I fail to see this thing being THAT good. He's only weak to Ground, but his overall defenses are just plain terrible, and a lack of recovery significantly holds him back. He's basically like Goodra, but less focused in one defensive stat, and has much less power. He can be a physically sturdy Defogger, but he'd still be heavily outclassed by Megs Scizor, who has a better defensive typing, better overall stats, and has Roost. Sorry, but this just doesn't work for me.

Unaware Cobalion: If he had Recover or even just Drain Punch, just some form of recovery, then I'd totally be behind this Theorymon. Almost anything would do; Recover, Drain Punch, Regenerator, just gimme something to work with here, but he just won't do as well as people expect him to without recovery. But he can at least check some setup sweepers. If he could actually heal off the damage he takes, then he can actually stay in on the things he checks and possibly counter them. Sadly, he only works as a check until he takes a hit, then is rather close to death fodder after that. He might be good and I just don't see it, but this in't really my kind of Pokemon.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Starmie reminds me of the rumors earlier this ten that Greninja could get Rapid Spin, and in a sense, that is sort of how Starmie would function. While it would certainly sit at a lower speed tier and be very slightly less powerful, Starmie's access to reliable recovery, coupled with the ability to change its less than ideal typing would make it one of the only Spinners that can sort of take on Aegislash (Balloon stopping Excadrill), the most common ghost and Spinblocker (to my knowledge).

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 136-161 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(This assuming it predicts the switch)

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 212-250 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If Starmie became a Normal Type Spinning on the switch-in.)
Aegislash can't use its Ghost moves in that case, and SE SS needs those hazards or LO recoil to kill. But Starmie changes type before Slash attacks so:
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 106-125 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Neutral)
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 183-216 (70.1 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Neutral)
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 53-62 (20.3 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO (Turned to a Psychic type. Inadvisable since Shadow Ball is easy to use on predicted Type Change)
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 70-84 (26.8 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Granted, the match-up is shaky, but Starmie at least isn't doomed now, and can actually beat Aegislash on the switch if its already taken some prior damage. It also helps alleviate Starmie's power loss with the Special Move nerfs.


Also, unlike Greninja (and LOL Kecleon), Starmie has reliable recovery, which means it could put Protean to some kind of defensive use to differentiate itself from Greninja. Granted, it would need to resist those hits to make use of it, but the niche is there regardless.


Protean Starmie to me seems like a Pokemon that CAN be more unique with the ability than Greninja, but requires a lot of prediction to justify using it over Greninja.

Take a look at bulky starmie though:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Scald vs. 244 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 99-118 (30.7 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Starmie: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Scald vs. 244 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 243-289 (75.4 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 212-250 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Normal typing)

It's a crazy match up, and the better player will win it almost every time, but I think Starmie has a bit of an advantage. Between the opportunity on the switch, the chance for a burn, the prediction on turn 2 to either sacred sword predicting the recover or the king's shield to survive another stall, and potential for recovery means the guy using Aegislash has to be on the top of his game.

 

[Jacks0n]

It can actually kill them and the subsequent switch ins instead of just forcing them out

base 90 attack, sky high woo. Besides it doesn't kill zard x with stone edge.