Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[Sun King]

After looking over some calcs, Torterra does seem like a pretty cool pivot, and a physically defensive spread seems like it can do quite a lot. Talonflame is just going to murder the poor thing with auto-Sun, but that's what you have five other Pokemon for I suppose. As long as the rest of your team can support its weaknesses it should be able to hold its own, and the fact that it's a sun-setter that resists SR is gold for sun teams.

You ninja'd me, but yes--this is, to me, it's biggest selling point. One of the main reasons sun is completely unviable now is that the two Drought mons are weak to Stealth Rocks (Ninetales and Charizard Y for those of you that don't know [which you should]). Drought Torterra, however, has the distinct advantage of being able to switch in and set up sun whenever you need it to. In addition to having pretty awesome synergy with Fire-type abusers, Torterra can really pave the way for sun teams with its STAB Earthquake.

One mon you might see more of as a direct result of Torterra is Mega Houndoom. Now that it doesn't have to set up its own sun, its Nasty Plot set is poised to utterly decimate the meta. Let me show you the haunting power this thing brings…

+2 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 286-337 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 543-640 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If you let this thing set up a Nasty Plot, you can kiss your team goodbye. It accomplishes at +2 what Manaphy fails to do at +6.

Commonly seen switch-ins to Mega Houndoom are Heatran, which is 2HKO'd at +2, and Tyranitar, who is terrified of Torterra. ScarfChomp can also tank a hit and KO with EQ, but that play is obvious and can easily be played around.

 

[escarlata]

base 90 attack, sky high woo. Besides it doesn't kill zard x with stone edge.

Attack stat isn't everything. Coverage is. Against every common set up sweeper that is not called charizard x or mega gyarados, it can 2HKO them without getting OHKOed in response. Base 108 speed means practically everything minus Dragonite and Ttar are outsped. In those cases, it can still take a hit and get a thunder wave in.

Or else, you can just run an Air Balloon and dgaf about EQ. I.e. Dragonite Dragon Claw + EQ can't 2HKO, and neither does other combinations of attack + EQ

 

[alexwolf]

Drought Torterra: He has a few traits above Mega Charizard Y, such as powered up Synthesis, STAB Earthquake, lacks a Stealth Rock weakness, and has pretty solid defenses. Magnified Fire weakness, 4x Ice weakness, 2x Flying and Bug weaknesses, low Speed, and vastly inferior power make him too outclassed in comparison. I'd only ever want another Drought user if I wanted Mega Venusaur on the team. He poses little threat to most of the top tier threats such as both Mega Charizards, Landorus, Deoxys-D, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Mega Scizor, Greninja, and quite a few others, and would really struggle to stand out. He can OHKO Heatran, which is a pretty notable trait over Mega Charizard Y, but that's pretty much it.

You completely ignore the Pokemon that Torterra can check or counter and Mega Charizard Y can't such as Excadrill, Terrakion, Garchomp, Kabutops, Azumarill, and Landorus-T, and most importanly the fact that Heat Rock Torterra can support other Pokemon reliably with sunlight, while Mega Char Y can't. Mega Houndoom is a monster under sun, and nothing can wall it, while it outspeeds and OHKOes most offensive Pokemon too. It even has Sucker Punch to OHKO Talonflame after SR. Heatran can check Talonflame and trap other weather setters while providing a lot of useful resistances and power under sun. Latios and Latias are excellent support Pokemon for such teams, that usually appreciate SR being off the field, and can support the team with Memento or Healing Wish. Chlorophyll Venusaur is a fantastic revenge killer and late-game cleaner. Mega Charizard X goes on a whole new level of crazy under sun. Even Chloro Shiftry with Sucker Punch seems as a very good option against offensive teams. Solar Power Heliolisk is a crazy nuke under sun and a very useful momentum grabber with Volt Switch, while also having all the necessary tools to deal with weather setters (Grass Knot for Hippowdon, Electric STAB for Politoed, Volt Switch or Focus Blast for Tyranitar).

Mega Char Y can't support its team reliably with sun, Torterra can, and this right here is a whole world of difference. Treating Drought Torterra as a standalone sun setter and abuser is just wrong, don't do it.

I will maybe post some calcs later, because Mega Houndoom under sun is fucking ridiculous.

 

[Antihaxxer]

One possible drawback I could see to Protean Starmie is that most of its type conversions are pretty unfavourable defensively - Normal, Ice and Psychic are pretty bad in particular.

Still, great coverage and speed, only really lacking a switching move. Thunderbolt also immunizes it from paralysis while Dazzling Gleam makes it immune to Dragon. It has a lot of potential.

Starmie has better coverage than the froak
Hydro Pump or Surf / Thunderbolt or Thunder / Ice Beam / Energy Ball or Grass Knot / Psychic / Flash Cannon / Dazzling Gleam and HP Fire and you can add Recover / Rapid Spin

 

[koista12]

Torterra is getting my vote

A sun setter that doesnt take up a mega slot, isnt weak to stealth rock, can beat tyranitar and heatran, and has amazing synergy with sun abusers? Yes please!

It would be really interesting to see how the metagame would look like with sun teams being viable.

 

[Sun King]

I will maybe post some calcs later, because Mega Houndoom under sun is fucking ridiculous.

The fact that it kills chansey after one turn of setup is the only calc you need.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Torterra is getting my vote

A sun setter that doesnt take up a mega slot, isnt weak to stealth rock, can beat tyranitar and heatran, and has amazing synergy with sun abusers? Yes please!

It would be really interesting to see how the metagame would look like with sun teams being viable.

Just a reminder, in sun, heatran out speeds and has a 68% chance to OHKO. If it gets a clean switch in, or runs an air balloon, there's still nothing you can do.

 

[alexwolf]

• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X in Sun: 237-280 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 255-301 (74.5 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Sun: 244-288 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 384-452 (127.1 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 330-390 (109.2 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 271-321 (38.4 - 45.5%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Sun: 231-273 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

A simple set with Sunny Day / Fire Blast / Dark Pulse / SolarBeam would demolish absolutely everything in OU, with SpD Heatran being the only Pokemon to avoid a potential 2HKO with SR up. Every offensive Pokemon has at least a chance to get OHKOed with SR up, outside of Garchomp. Sunny Day is for Hippowdon, Tyranitar, and Politoed switch-ins, which would otherwise counter Mega Houndoom. Destiny Bond is another great move on Mega Houndoom's arsenal, that can let it lure and OHKO weather inducers to let its other teammates sweep.

 

[Sun King]

Just a reminder, in sun, heatran out speeds and has a 68% chance to OHKO. If it gets a clean switch in, or runs an air balloon, there's still nothing you can do.

It might check torterra, but heatran does NOT want to switch into STAB Earthquake. Also, you're most likely switching in, setting up SR, and/or pivoting out to a sun abuser.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

It might check torterra, but heatran does NOT want to switch into STAB Earthquake. Also, you're most likely switching in, setting up SR, and/or pivoting out to a sun abuser.

Air balloon heatran still straight up counters sun, and with its ability to ruin you with rocks, sun strategies still have issues.

Excadrill helps a lot, but it faces similar problems of the air balloon. Ironically, starmie, with its amazing match up with heatran would theoretically make a decent team mate for torterra, especially if it'd have STAB hp fire as an option

 

[Axa]

Air balloon heatran still straight up counters sun, and with its ability to ruin you with rocks, sun strategies still have issues.

Excadrill helps a lot, but it faces similar problems of the air balloon. Ironically, starmie, with its amazing match up with heatran would theoretically make a decent team mate for torterra, especially if it'd have STAB hp fire as an option

I wouldn't run HP Fire on Protean Starmie even in Sun - a neutral STAB Thunderbolt/Ice Beam has the exact same BP. I'd probably run HP Ground if anything.

Not that both would get in unless one of them places second and gets a chance to be re-voted in.

 

[HolyAvatar]

Air balloon heatran still straight up counters sun, and with its ability to ruin you with rocks, sun strategies still have issues.

Balloon heatran has always been a problem but it won't be able to come after his balloon has been popped, which can be easily done by teammates/prediction. Heatran was manageable in BW and now sun teams have much more threatening sweepers in mega houndoom and charizard X.

If you've ever played a sun, you know that heatran IS annoying but can easily be played around as a sun team just by overburdening him. Air balloon itself means that it's easy to wear down. The purpose of this thread is to design pokemon that will have an impact on the metagame while still not overdoing it (my first -dumb- suggestion was aerilate Noivern and was quickly dismissed by alexwolf). This is about reviving a whole playstyle.

Last but not least, if you're really that worried about heatran, I guess you could run superpower to cripple it on the switch, opening the KO for mega hoondoom/ other fire resist sun abuser.

 

[Jayd]

• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X in Sun: 237-280 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 255-301 (74.5 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Sun: 244-288 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 384-452 (127.1 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 330-390 (109.2 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 271-321 (38.4 - 45.5%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Sun: 231-273 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

A simple set with Sunny Day / Fire Blast / Dark Pulse / SolarBeam would demolish absolutely everything in OU, with SpD Heatran being the only Pokemon to avoid a potential 2HKO with SR up. Every offensive Pokemon has at least a chance to get OHKOed with SR up, outside of Garchomp. Sunny Day is for Hippowdon, Tyranitar, and Politoed switch-ins, which would otherwise counter Mega Houndoom. Destiny Bond is another great move on Mega Houndoom's arsenal, that can let it lure and OHKO weather inducers to let its other teammates sweep.

I actually have used this Mega Houndoom set quite a lot with the meta as it is. I love the sun, but it is just starving for good options and good balance to make really effective and versatile offensive teams. Torterra goes in the right direction to fix this, as alexwolf pointed out in earlier posts regarding how it checks and counters so many Pokes that give sun offense a headache.

Torterra's contribution, then, would be making a team archtype on the whole more viable. This is head and shoulders above the contributions to the metagame that the other candidates on the slate offer, as they only carve themselves their own selfish niches. I can see that lots of people aren't understanding that and are just asking what sun does for Torterra itself. The better question is what Drought Torterra does for the versatility of the metagame itself.

So basically, even if you don't love sun as much as I do, Torterra is the right choice because it offers the most exciting and fun changes to the game.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

My thought process with torterra is that I have to consider how it'd affect the meta, and the answer is that I am not sure if it really would. Comparing it to 9tales, it has the huge pros of not being weak to SR, and it can actually handle ttar and politoed, but I don't see this as enough to make sun especially useful again

 

[Valmanway]

You completely ignore the Pokemon that Torterra can check or counter and Mega Charizard Y can't such as Excadrill, Terrakion, Garchomp, Kabutops, Azumarill, and Landorus-T, and most importanly the fact that Heat Rock Torterra can support other Pokemon reliably with sunlight, while Mega Char Y can't. Mega Houndoom is a monster under sun, and nothing can wall it, while it outspeeds and OHKOes most offensive Pokemon too. It even has Sucker Punch to OHKO Talonflame after SR. Heatran can check Talonflame and trap other weather setters while providing a lot of useful resistances and power under sun. Latios and Latias are excellent support Pokemon for such teams, that usually appreciate SR being off the field, and can support the team with Memento or Healing Wish. Chlorophyll Venusaur is a fantastic revenge killer and late-game cleaner. Mega Charizard X goes on a whole new level of crazy under sun. Even Chloro Shiftry with Sucker Punch seems as a very good option against offensive teams. Solar Power Heliolisk is a crazy nuke under sun and a very useful momentum grabber with Volt Switch, while also having all the necessary tools to deal with weather setters (Grass Knot for Hippowdon, Electric STAB for Politoed, Volt Switch or Focus Blast for Tyranitar).

Mega Char Y can't support its team reliably with sun, Torterra can, and this right here is a whole world of difference. Treating Drought Torterra as a standalone sun setter and abuser is just wrong, don't do it.

I will maybe post some calcs later, because Mega Houndoom under sun is fucking ridiculous.

You're focusing more on what Torterra supports than how he himself can fare in OU. If you're just using Torterra mostly for the sun support, just use Ninetales. While I'll admit that Ninetales is pretty much a poor man's Mega Houndoom, it still provides the sun just like Torterra, and already makes Mega Houndoom into a "monster", but that still doesn't save him from being C rank on the viability list. If you want a physical wall for the sun team, just use Gliscor. Gliscor has overall better physical bulk, can threaten most of whatever Torterra can, also has recovery (and heals as much as sun-boosted Synthesis when factoring in Poison Heal), and can still function even without the sun, but has more Speed and less weaknesses. But you can still have your Mega Houndoom in the sun, you can still have your Heat Rock extending the sun's time out, and you can still have a physical wall tanking physical hits, even without Drought Torterra. So I have two questions. First, how much better would Torterra be than Ninetales? And second, how much better would Torterra be with sun up than he already is without it?

 

[alexwolf]

You're focusing more on what Torterra supports than how he himself can fare in OU. If you're just using Torterra mostly for the sun support, just use Ninetales. While I'll admit that Ninetales is pretty much a poor man's Mega Houndoom, it still provides the sun just like Torterra, and already makes Mega Houndoom into a "monster", but that still doesn't save him from being C rank on the viability list. If you want a physical wall for the sun team, just use Gliscor. Gliscor has overall better physical bulk, can threaten most of whatever Torterra can, also has recovery (and heals as much as sun-boosted Synthesis when factoring in Poison Heal), and can still function even without the sun, but has more Speed and less weaknesses. But you can still have your Mega Houndoom in the sun, you can still have your Heat Rock extending the sun's time out, and you can still have a physical wall tanking physical hits, even without Drought Torterra. So I have two questions. First, how much better would Torterra be than Ninetales? And second, how much better would Torterra be with sun up than he already is without it?

The most important question regarding Torterra's viability in comparison to Ninetales's would be ''how much better as a sun inducer would Torterra be?''. The answer is a lot. I have already mentioned Pokemon against which Torterra can come in, and there are many top tier threats in that list, in contrast to Ninetales which couldn't really deal with anything, you just wanted to make it as less useless as possible. Taking 6.25% instead of 25% from SR is a drastic improvement and another very important pro of Torterra over Ninetales, as Torterra can't be stopped from switching in at will with just SR up. Add to this reliable recovery and great synergy with Fire-types, unlike Ninetales, and you have a Pokemon that puts the term 'sun support' at a whole new different level, not even comparable to the support of Ninetales anymore. Honestly, if you can't see why Torterra is miles better than Ninetales as a sun setter, i don't know what else to say... And that's not even counting Stealth Rock, an amazing support move that Torterra has at its disposal and Ninetales doesn't, and the ability of Torterra to at least discourage Fire-types from coming in to take advantage of sun themselves with EQ and Stone Edge, both things that Ninetales can't do.

 

[Jaroda]

Drought Torterra: Initially I didn't give him enough credit, but yeah, alexwolf raises some very good points. Torterra is a sun setter that absolutely supports the kind of pokemon that benefit from sun the most. Ice attacks will be tricky, but there is potential here, and personally I enjoy making every starter OU viable if possible. Having a Sun setter that can also lay Stealth Rock and even screens makes him an amazing support mon in one with good defenses to invest in and super Synthesis recovery and a Stealth Rock resistance means he can come in multiple times throughout the match. This would make sun a much more viable playstyle. Torterra can even use Growth which acts as a Swords Dance and Nasty Plot every time! MEaning he can attack mixed and heal with a boosted Giga Drain if need be. The more I think about it the more I like it.

Protean Starmie: Potentially amazing, Rapid Spinning would ironically make you immune to spin blocker's STABs. Starmie's special movepool is far more varied than Greninja, and with access to Recover it is actually feasible to use Protean defensively, especially since Starmie isn't reliant on Life Orb like Greninja is. This is a really good idea, I'm just liking Torterra more.

Fur Coat Skuntank: Fur coat will turn anything into a great physical tank. My biggest fear is lack of recovery. A toxic stall with rest could be an option, but there's quite a few special attackers that can 2HKO him. I'm going to wait til I hear Chou's reasoning to pass judgement. But Poison/Dark IS an amazing typing. If only it could learn Clear Smog it would be an AMAZING threat to Baton Pass (immune to Stored Power) and set up sweepers.

Unaware Cobalion: Flavor wise I don't get it, but I suppose having something as fast as Cobalion that can ignore the enemy's speed boosts would be pretty handy. But, ehhh... Not very inspired here.

 

[-Flygon-]

Well, I stand corrected. Torterra would make sun viable again! Torterra + MegaDoom is a crazy good combo. I should really not react instantly, after all alexwolf is really good at making all noms seem amazing. Apologies HolyAvatar. That'd be great, a defensive sun setter, and less CharYs sound good to me! And I have been wanting to try a Sun team with a Maractus...(Please don't kill me! ;-;)

 

[Valmanway]

The most important question regarding Torterra's viability in comparison to Ninetales's would be ''how much better as a sun inducer would Torterra be?''. The answer is a lot. I have already mentioned Pokemon against which Torterra can come in, and there are many top tier threats in that list, in contrast to Ninetales which couldn't really deal with anything, you just wanted to make it as less useless as possible. Taking 6.25% instead of 25% from SR is a drastic improvement and another very important pro of Torterra over Ninetales, as Torterra can't be stopped from switching in at will with just SR up. Add to this reliable recovery and great synergy with Fire-types, unlike Ninetales, and you have a Pokemon that puts the term 'sun support' at a whole new different level, not even comparable to the support of Ninetales anymore. Honestly, if you can't see why Torterra is miles better than Ninetales as a sun setter, i don't know what else to say... And that's not even counting Stealth Rock, an amazing support move that Torterra has at its disposal and Ninetales doesn't, and the ability of Torterra to at least discourage Fire-types from coming in to take advantage of sun themselves with EQ and Stone Edge, both things that Ninetales can't do.

Fair enough.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm definitely voting for Torterra. It revives an entire playstyle which can't be said about the other three. With all the Pokemon which benefit from having sun up, sun teams can be very diverse. alexwolf has already said enough about Torterra, so I won't say much else. Also, I don't know if this would be good or not, but you could run both Torterra and Ninetales on the same team so that you don't have to worry as much about one of your weather starters being KO'ed.

 

[Sun King]

I was actually so enthralled by sun being made more viable that I completely glossed over Fur Coat Skuntank. Fur coat is an absolutely INCREDIBLE ability, and when you tack in on to a mon with only 1 weakness and some awesome physical resistances, you get something really special. The reason furfrou didn't take off is because its typing was too bland, and offered no resistances. I'm on my phone, so I don't have easy access to calcs, but when I get time, I'll post the things Skuntank will obliterate.

 

[HolyAvatar]

Fur Coat Skuntank is interesting indeed but I fail to see its use in a team.
Dark/Poison coverage is scarcely resisted in OU ( the mains one are bisharp, tyrannitar, mawile and terakkion). It does have acces to flamethrower/fireblast but its low spa stat makes it awkward so play rough would be the better coverage leaving only Mawile.
The big let down for me is that it can't learn knock off.
It does have an interesting support movepoll with roar, haze, torment, foul play, snatch, taunt and memento.
With only one weakness and a lot of resistances, it could run a torment/protect/toxic/filler (foul play) set.
It's best stab options are crunch/sucker punch and poison jab and coming off a probably uninvested 93 attack that's quite weak.
Overall I'm not very enthusiast about this.

 

[Sun King]

Fur Coat Skuntank is interesting indeed but I fail to see its use in a team.
Dark/Poison coverage is scarcely resisted in OU ( the mains one are bisharp, tyrannitar, mawile and terakkion). It does have acces to flamethrower/fireblast but its low spa stat makes it awkward so play rough would be the better coverage leaving only Mawile.
The big let down for me is that it can't learn knock off.
It does have an interesting support movepoll with roar, haze, torment, foul play, snatch, taunt and memento.
With only one weakness and a lot of resistances, it could run a torment/protect/toxic/filler (probably foul play) set.
It's best stab options are crunch/sucker punch and poison jab and coming off a probably uninvested 93 attack that's quite weak.
Overall I'm not very enthusiast about this.

It's a defogger that can beat bisharp, for one, and it's not weak to stealth rocks. Skuntank isn't going to take the tier by storm through offensive presence (it probably won't take anything by storm, but it's still really cool).

EDIT: Disregard the defogger bit. That was an old theorymon, and I assume that's no longer applicable.

DOUBLE EDIT: Disregard the prior disregard--it's not a theorymon, and serebii just sucks at updating.

 

[HolyAvatar]

For some reason I missed that on the move list from serebii.
Even with only one layer of spikes, the matchup is shaky since it needs 144 speed evs to outspeed max speed adamant bisharp. Outside of that, since it doesn't have reliable recovery, it can't do much else.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 116+ Def Fur Coat Skuntank: 197-232 (48 - 56.5%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 116+ Def Fur Coat Skuntank: 98-116 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Max roll is 84.7% + 25% (sr + 1 layer of spikes)= 109.7% if you take black sludge recovery in to account it's still 103.45%.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

It's a defogger that can beat bisharp, for one, and it's not weak to stealth rocks. Skuntank isn't going to take the tier by storm through offensive presence (it probably won't take anything by storm, but it's still really cool).

EDIT: Disregard the defogger bit. That was an old theorymon, and I assume that's no longer applicable.

Skuntank gets Defog naturally, it wasn't a theorymon this gen