np: Doubles Stage 3 — Hit Me Baby One More Time [Kangaskhanite stays in Doubles]

[Anty]

When building a rain team, i noticed that most rain sweepers are one sided, and carry similar move sets but maybe one extra coverage. I also noticed that most of them (maybe not keldeo) struggle to touch ferrothorn, who also looses its quad weakness in the rain.

Ludicolo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 152 Spd / 252 SAtk / 104 HP
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast

After seeing that ludicolo has an ou niche with focus blast, why not bring it to doubles. It does need all of its original moves, fake out provides a lot of support, hydro pump is very strong in the rain, giga drain is a strong STAB and allows it to hit waters (another niche) and ice beam lets it hit grass. I chose to replace ice beam as it doesnt add that much.
With ice beam you hit harder (than other moves in your set, in rain):
amoongus (not even a 2hko without sitrus), garchomp, skymin, reg venusaur, trevenent

With focus blast:
Ferrothorn, kyurem-b (ice beam cannot break sub), ttar (in sand), weavile (lawl), bisharp (lawl), hydreigon.

Ice beam may seem more useful, and it can be on many occasions, but focus blast definately has a niche and can be worth using depending on how weak your team is to certain threats

 

[jas61292]

LightningLuxray's post early in this thread did a good job summarizing what I saw as the two biggest difference between the Kanga and no Kanga metagames: Weather and Fake Out users.

For weather, the overall increase is due 100% to Kanga's disappearance. Not because it made weather less viable, but because without Kanga to turn to, other Pokemon become more popular, and in that mega spot, some of the Pokemon I thought saw the greatest increase were CharizardY and Mega Abomasnow. Weather can be so incredibly strong that, if you don't have a strategy dedicated around another mega, it is hard not to at least consider using one.

As for Fake Out, while the ladder with Kanga saw that move stuck mostly on guys like Kanga, Scrafty and Hitmontop, the suspect ladder was filler with people trying out all sorts of things with it, from Infernape to Ambipom. To me, I think this is just a fad, similar to what happened with the sleep suspect test. People were just trying out all sorts of things to fill a niche which you didn't really even think about before. If Kanga were actually banned, once things would settle down, I wouldn't expect a trend like this to keep up.

One other thing I noticed, which kind of surprised me, but at the same time makes sense, was that I felt the Kanga meta had a significant lack of Trick Room when compared to the suspect meta. I am not sure why exactly, but I can think of a few possible explanations. First, something like Kanga is so good, you always have to at least consider using it, and if you do, you become less likely to use TR due to its decently high speed. And secondly, the existance of Kanga means your opponent is more likely to have something good that can use Fake Out to bypass your Trick Room and help stall it out more effectively. Also, as mentioned above, like with weather, the lack of Kanga opens the door to other megas, some of which, such as Aboma and Ampharos can fit in quite well in Trick Room.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

Surprisingly, during this suspect ladder, I didn't see many mega kanga; the teams that had them were definitely in the minority. That isn't to say it's bad or balanced, mega kanga still rips a huge hole in my team even with preparation. I also saw quite a few talonflame, and weather teams (sun, hail, rain) as well as the ever prevelant TR. Making suspect reqs for dubs has made me really hate, not just mega kangaskhan, but also Thundurus and Heatran. lol.

 

[Electrolyte]

Mega Kanga definitely restricts Trick Room use; its basically STAB in power Sucker Punch can deal a whole lot of damage to more offensively inclined Trick Room teams that lack ways to bypass the priority. Mega Kanga's high bulk to power ratio is also extremely dangerous for Trick Room to handle, especially when it's very common on most Hyper Offensive teams, something TR should be able to but is not able to defeat easily due to Mega K's presence.

 

[finally]

It's funny, although not everyone may be seeing that many kanga's I've seen a fair share. But what's special about them is that they all pack protect. People know about double targetting, and they are you know- trying to not get double targeted. I'm pretty sure people are dropping pup for protect as this makes kanga still nice general utility and attack pressure. I mean, his returns still hurt at +0. And sucker punch is nice priority. And fake out is nice support. This restricts kanga's ability to break through things because it has no boosts, but it increases its longevity throughout the battle so as to not limit kanga to a 3-turn killing spree and instead make it a battle long fake out supporter.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

It's funny, although not everyone may be seeing that many kanga's I've seen a fair share. But what's special about them is that they all pack protect. People know about double targetting, and they are you know- trying to not get double targeted. I'm pretty sure people are dropping pup for protect as this makes kanga still nice general utility and attack pressure. I mean, his returns still hurt at +0. And sucker punch is nice priority. And fake out is nice support. This restricts kanga's ability to break through things because it has no boosts, but it increases its longevity throughout the battle so as to not limit kanga to a 3-turn killing spree and instead make it a battle long fake out supporter.

I think I've seen protect kanga. It surprised me the first time I saw it, since it was able to avoid a will-o-wisp while its ally could still move. In addition, I think I also see drain punch mega kanga being more common, as drain punch also increases its longevity.

 

[Darkmalice]

The problem with using Aegislash as an anti-TR Pokemon is that 60 base Speed. Sure it's slow and its STABs hit most setters super effectively, but a lot of Pokemon common on TR (such as Conkeldurr, Mega Mawile, Escavalier, Scrafty, and a lot of setters) actually underspeed it, meaning Aegislash has to play very carefully or it risks being OHKOed in Blade form. If I was looking for something that could bash some setter heads in, I'd definitely go with Bisharp paired with a decently fast Fake Out user - Fake Out on TR is often either entirely left out or relegated to Hitmontop and Scrafty, which both carry Intimidate, and Bisharp is easily capable of capitalizing on it. Of course TR can carry countermeasures (Conkeldurr in particular really ruins Bisharp's day), but it's definitely the single best Pokemon for disposing of TR setters

Try pairing Aegislash with a Fake Out user, like Mega Kang. It really helps for getting around Stance change on the first turn. Substitute or Shadow Sneak help too. Aegislash also underspeeds said Pokemon if TR does get up, so you get to abuse your bulk then. I actually find Aegislash > Bisharp for anti-TR, though it does depend on the user. I'm personally more experienced with Aegislash than Bisharp.

Bisharp also needs support against TR teams, as it itself can be targetted by Fake Out and it isn't likely to OHKO Hitmontop at +1 (it cannot OHKO Scrafty without a crit). Bisharp itself is also quite frail and prone to being OHKOed by common Pokemon on TR team, like Chandelure's Heat Wave and Fighting-types, where as Shield Aegislash can at least tank super-effective hits. Bisharp is also neutered by burns which are common on TR teams (at least the ladder ones).

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Bit late but I'll say some stuff about the non Kanga ladder. I'd say it was a more enjoyable metagame than one with kanga but this is both hard to quantify and subjective.

Without kanga to turn to for a Mega slot, I saw an increase in the number of other mega pokemon being used. Zard Y and Mega Gardevoir seemed to increase in usage fairly dramatically, and I saw some other stuff I don't normally like Mega Medicham. More Zard Y meant more sun teams with venusaur which is pretty potent. This was also helped by Kanga not lurking with Fake Out and Sucker Punch to stop a Chlorophyll sweep. Fairy spam was prevalent, with the double fairy mega gardevoir and sylveon core in Audiosurfers team being pretty common. This is what I used for this ladder and it was definitely an effective strategy to climb the ladder, as with the Kanga ladder specs sylveon is too much for a lot teams to handle.

In general frail offensive pokemon were benefited by Kangas absence, stuff like deo A became much more viable due not being smacked by fake out/sucker punch. Trick Room was also easier to pull off, again due to lack of fake out to stop the set up/ sucker punch to stop the sweep.

Really it was just good to not get torn apart by even averagely played Kanga's on the lower ladder. A slightly more diverse meta with a greater variety of mega pokemon was nice to play in.

 

[champetero]

Well everything has already been said about kanga.When i was ladering i didn't see a lot of kanga's,I saw mega gengar a lot more.The kanga's i did see were different form the normal set.Like i saw drain punch,hammer arm,fire punch,etc.Tho the the most interesting move was sub instead of fake out.While you lose the utility of fake out you can now set up a sun on pokemon like Rotom-W or gourgeist who will usually go and burn you,giving you the free turn and then being able to attack without worrying about status or intimidate while you are behind a sub.

 

[finally]

Well everything has already been said about kanga.When i was ladering i didn't see a lot of kanga's,I saw mega gengar a lot more.The kanga's i did see were different form the normal set.Like i saw drain punch,hammer arm,fire punch,etc.Tho the the most interesting move was sub instead of fake out.While you lose the utility of fake out you can now set up a sun on pokemon like Rotom-W or gourgeist who will usually go and burn you,giving you the free turn and then being able to attack without worrying about status or intimidate while you are behind a sub.

unfortunately sub can only get you so far against bulky ghosts assuming you have return, pup, sucker, sub. or maybe return, sucker, sub, protect. and if bulky ghost's teammate cant break the sub, you can always force the bulky ghost to attack, which means sucker :]. also free subs are nicee

for people who are new to doubles, the mega gar craze is after everyone realized mega gar can trap and wow weaker physical attackers. this effectively cripples and prevents weak physical attackers from doing anything at all. ergo, now you have mega gar + teammate vs enemy and crippled enemy: a 2v1.

most mega gar sets are like sub, shadow ball, wisp, protect.
personalamente i like shadow ball, sludge bomb, wisp, protect bc its one of the few mons that can outspeed skymin and pop it off. also running timid gengar (the one that outspeeds skymin) allows you to beat 108's etc as regular gengar :]
perish song is also cool, but i dont like it bc perishtrapping is kinda hard against better players, even if they don't expect it.

 

[trc]

I had the same issue as Temp; when I was on the suspect ladder I saw very few Mega Kangaskhan, and the ones I did see were practically only on Shake's team. I mean, I've always thought the people who play on the suspect ladder will abuse the suspect to the fullest, but Mega Khan wasn't nearly as common as it should be. Also PerishTrap is horrible and so is CP Clefable ;_;

 

[Haki]

When the non-Kangaskhan ladder was up, I noticed that she was simply replaced with another Pokémon who could provide Fake Out support, notably Mega-Medicham, Infernape, and Hitmontop. The metagame honestly didn't really change enough to have a significant impact, as players could simply replace Mega-Kangaskhan for another Pokémon who could fulfill her role for a specific team. Teams utilizing gimmicks saw a slight increase in use, although the most noticeable change that occurred was the prevalence of Trick Room teams, as well as weather teams. Mega-Ampharos and Mega-Manectric both witnessed their usage rate go up, as a result, and the infamous ChloroSaur combination once again started to become commonplace.

As for the ladder which allowed Mega-Kangaskhan, I was very surprised to see her usage drop compared to the ladder before the suspect test. In the wake of this decreased usage, Mega-Gengar became much more viable as a result, with the ability to trap and cripple physical attackers (Disable and Will-O-Wisp) thanks to his Shadow Tag ability. I'd also like to make a note that a handful of players on the higher part of the ladder have begun to use Protect on MegaMom; a very unpredictable move choice as most players are used to the standard Fake Out / Return / Power-Up-Punch / Sucker Punch. In addition to Protect, Frustration has been preferred over Return due to the fact Transfrom Mew was become more viable. The switch from Return to Frustration allows Mew to barely inflict a significant amount of damage with Frustration because Mew will most likely be at max happiness rather than having no happiness at all.

 

[realiti]

I really don't see much Kanga. However, I see lots of other good stuff like Mega Zard Y, Talonflame, and Heatran. Judging by what I saw Rain teams should be more popular than it is now. Rain works great in this meta and later I'll expect more Rain teams to pop up.

 

[Not Canadian]

Okay, I realize this might be a bit late, but I'll share my thoughts about what I saw on both ladders.

What I found interesting about the non-Kanga suspect ladder was that players either experimented or refused to adapt: that is, they would either try some nice spin on weather (usually sun) or semi-TR; or they would simply remove M-Kanga from their normal Doubles teams and swap in something else that had Fake Out support. While it's true that the ladder became more diverse as a result of M-Kanga's disappearance, the trends I observed make me disinclined to vote for a ladder like this, which would, after settling down, I feel, would be the same old thing: people shrug their shoulders, use another copypaste team or half-shove in something different onto their team, and the tier is generally the same, because people are still using what they had before the suspect, minus M-Kanga, which I think de-optimizes their team's potential.

On the Doubles Current ladder, what I found really strange was that M-Kanga was fairly rare. Perhaps people had gotten too lazy to change their teams from leg one? I think this is a fascinating point to bring up: for what reason was Mega Kangaskhan rare on a ladder where it was allowed, and where it could supposedly run rampant and at full power? Had people adapted to it? Did they discover that another mega fit better on their team in the course of the suspect ladder? Or did it simply not fit at all?

Curious indeed.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

On the Doubles Current ladder, what I found really strange was that M-Kanga was fairly rare. Perhaps people had gotten too lazy to change their teams from leg one? I think this is a fascinating point to bring up: for what reason was Mega Kangaskhan rare on a ladder where it was allowed, and where it could supposedly run rampant and at full power? Had people adapted to it? Did they discover that another mega fit better on their team in the course of the suspect ladder? Or did it simply not fit at all?

Curious indeed.

A big part of it was convenience. I had a team I used for the first ladder, I might as well use it for the second ladder since I'm more familiar with the team and I know how to deal with opposing teams better (not to mention my team isn't too terrible against kanga).
Another part of it might be that because it's a suspect test, people will sometimes not use the suspected pokemon because they fear that other players will be overly prepared for it.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Also the sample size of ~40 battles to get reqs is pretty small. I happened to see a decent amount of Kanga but not one Mega gengar as I was laddering. Take into consideration something like half of the battles were probably against non competitive teams and its not hard to imagine people not seeing the pokemon they expect to.

 

[Terraquaza]

I don't think i can contribute any new or interesting thoughts, but I also think that kanga is not broken and that it's more dangerous than other mons in the hands of better players. And I agree that TR teams have huge problems bc of pup and sucker punch ;_;

 

[Stratos]

VOTING THREAD IS UP

The list of voters is in the thread I just linked. Not everyone who made ladder reqs gets to vote, for one of two reasons. Either you did not sufficiently contribute to the discussion, or your participation showed an incomplete understanding of either the doubles tier or the smogon suspect process. This doesn't mean that you will be barred from future votes. Simply emulate the behavior of and pay attention to the advice of those who did get to vote and i'm sure you'll be allowed in next time.

Feel free to continue to discuss the suspect in the suspect discussion thread until the votes are in. Who knows, you might change someone's mind. And keep using this thread to discuss literally anything about the metagame that you want!

 

[Stratos]

Results are in!

Holy shit, that happened a lot quicker than I thought it would. Technically, I've known the fate of Kangaskhanite since last night, but I decided to keep the thread under lockdown so that the rest of the voters couldn't be influenced by the result. It turns out that my patience was kind of for naught, since nobody has voted since 13 hours ago. If you're one of the last three stragglers, srk1214, finally, or Hakumen, get your vote in so that it can go towards tiering contributor (or TC alumnus). Feel free to continue using this thread to discuss the metagame until another thread is posted!

 

[Audiosurfer]

idk i'm still not convinced it's not broken. can we get a 3rd suspect next round?

 

[KyleCole]

Doubles community supports child soldiers
confirmed

 

[Bughouse]

Wow that vote happened quickly. Anyway, added mine. IMO Kanga does enough (such as how PuP makes TTar complete bait, making Sand a lot worse than it otherwise is) to be considered unhealthy distortion on the metagame. It's not obvious, but it's there. The biggest influence is on speed tiers in general. 100 is an incredibly important benchmark for almost everything since Normal STAB hits almost everything like a truck.

Anyway, voted to ban after a lot of thought. Doesn't matter though.

 

[termi]

1: can we ban gengarite now
2: can I get tc now