Well,Team 1 can break down walls more easily with coverage and power
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Other Counter That Pokemon! (Final Battle Friday @ 12 PM EST)
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OK so I'm changing my nomination because in a project like this Cresselia can be played around quite easily and, unfortunately, doesn't offer much offensive pressure
So, I have also decided to nominate Sash Terrakion: However, this is a non-SD variant that I feel is better because SD + Sash doesn't help in a meta where Talonflame and other priority can stop Terrakion easily if it's at 1 HP.
Terrakion@Focus Sash
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP
Nature: Jolly
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
This fulfills the same role as the previous Sash Terrakion but simply replaces SD with Earthquake for good coverage on Aegislash and other ground-weak mons since SD won't help much in the current meta.
So, I have also decided to nominate Sash Terrakion: However, this is a non-SD variant that I feel is better because SD + Sash doesn't help in a meta where Talonflame and other priority can stop Terrakion easily if it's at 1 HP.
Terrakion@Focus Sash
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP
Nature: Jolly
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
This fulfills the same role as the previous Sash Terrakion but simply replaces SD with Earthquake for good coverage on Aegislash and other ground-weak mons since SD won't help much in the current meta.
The reasons why SD>EQ is that it puts more pressure on team 1 to stay in and attack it. Fighting a +2 Terrakion with its sash intact is going to be very hard. This means that team 1 are going to have to take risks to break the sash. These 50-50s if team 2 lose puts our rocks down and gives us another chance. If Team 2 win we either get rocks/SD up for free or a huge hit on one of team 1's pokemon.
EQ's advantages are hitting Aegislash, Toxicroak and the Nidos hard. Firstly if team 1 pick a Nido then they have 2 grounds, further opening themselves to Mamoswine with superpower. Secondly none of these pokemon are the huge threat team 2 will be scared of. If team 1 pick any of these, bar a stealth rock Nido, then they are either overloading one pokemon or having their last pokemon restricted.
Finally they can always make EQ useless as they can pick a counter who doesn't mind it and beats Terrakion. An example of this is Skarmory, who is currently a big threat but hates +2 CCs. It'll shrug off a +0 CC though and set up rocks/spikes, whirlwind you out or just BB. It could also Defog while a +2 Terrakion forces the Whirlwind and then the Skarmory is easily revenged.
EQ's advantages are hitting Aegislash, Toxicroak and the Nidos hard. Firstly if team 1 pick a Nido then they have 2 grounds, further opening themselves to Mamoswine with superpower. Secondly none of these pokemon are the huge threat team 2 will be scared of. If team 1 pick any of these, bar a stealth rock Nido, then they are either overloading one pokemon or having their last pokemon restricted.
Finally they can always make EQ useless as they can pick a counter who doesn't mind it and beats Terrakion. An example of this is Skarmory, who is currently a big threat but hates +2 CCs. It'll shrug off a +0 CC though and set up rocks/spikes, whirlwind you out or just BB. It could also Defog while a +2 Terrakion forces the Whirlwind and then the Skarmory is easily revenged.
This is the problem though: Team 1 can easily pick(and will probably end up having some form of) priority, such as Aqua Jet from Azumarill, Talonflame BB, etc. The chances of Terrakion setting up SD with sash intact are remote - it is far more likely that SD will be useless, especially since Terrakion has to : a) Set up SR, b) Set up SD, c) Attack, all with sash intact - which is very unlikely.
Even if it doesn't set up a SD it can threaten an SD against Kyurem, meaning that the team 1 player won't want to switch. Therefore from the threat of SD we could bet a ko on Kyurem. It also means Skarm can't take on Terrakion.
With EQ you aren't threatening a SD on the switch so Kyurem will switch. You also aren't threatening Skarmory which is a good pick for team 1 now.
Finally the priority pokes you are listing are unlikely to get picked. This is because they don't offer the setting up or removal of hazards. This means that they'll be picked as the last pick and Dragonite can take a hit from Talonflame, we could do with another and Azumarill isn't the last pick sweeper.
With EQ you aren't threatening a SD on the switch so Kyurem will switch. You also aren't threatening Skarmory which is a good pick for team 1 now.
Finally the priority pokes you are listing are unlikely to get picked. This is because they don't offer the setting up or removal of hazards. This means that they'll be picked as the last pick and Dragonite can take a hit from Talonflame, we could do with another and Azumarill isn't the last pick sweeper.
This depends on the situation - if Cube's behind a Sub, SD is useless, whereas if it's not then SD can stand a chance, although the limited coverage makes Terrakion easier to wall, even at +2. And regarding the prediction you suggested, as per my understanding your point is: Team 1 player predicts SD --> Team 1 player doesn't switch --> Team 2 player KOes with CC
This essentially means that your argument for SD is based on Team 1 making a misprediction - which could apply to any move I selected and by no means makes that move worth using.
OK, so let's say Cube switches - this facilitates Double switching, which could give us momentum.
Why not? Team 1 has three picks to make - they could easily pick Talonflame(who revenges both Greninja and Scizor) as a choice. Aegislash can also walk over the SD set without EQ and is a strong mon that could be selected.
To conclude, I'm quite skeptical about SD on the Focus Sash set for the purposes of the project, simply because the chances of the sash remaining intact and Terrakion pulling off a sweep are remote.
I'd also like to remind everyone that we already have a SD sweeper/physical win condition in Mega Scizor - and thus I feel a secondary win condition of the same type might hinder the team.
Also does anyone think Taunt might be a good idea on the Sash set as an alternative to EQ/SD? Taunt would allow us to shut down Ferro for the large part(Ferro probably won't stay in) but the loss of coverage might not be worth it.
I thought about Taunt but SD applies more pressure. Taunting Ferrothorn is risky as it could knock us down to our sash for no real advantage. If we set up an SD then we can at least hammer something or ko ferrothorn.
Kyurem-B behind a sub and we send Terrakion in? Surely we send Terrakion in if it doesn't have a sub or on a double switch? Also earthquake is useless against a Kyurem behind a sub too.
The reasons that Team 1 will struggle to pick an azumarill/talonflame. This is because they have 3 picks left. There next picks will be a defogger and a hazard setter. There final pokemon will be a sweeper. That pokemon will try and outspeed and wreck us. It will not be a slow pokemon like Aegislash or Azumarill that's sole purpose is to beat Terrakion. Talonflame could get picked but if we use a check for our final pokemon then they won't. The limited picks left are why they can't really.
Also Terrakion isn't a win condition but a pokemon to punch holes as well as set up rocks.
Kyurem-B behind a sub and we send Terrakion in? Surely we send Terrakion in if it doesn't have a sub or on a double switch? Also earthquake is useless against a Kyurem behind a sub too.
The reasons that Team 1 will struggle to pick an azumarill/talonflame. This is because they have 3 picks left. There next picks will be a defogger and a hazard setter. There final pokemon will be a sweeper. That pokemon will try and outspeed and wreck us. It will not be a slow pokemon like Aegislash or Azumarill that's sole purpose is to beat Terrakion. Talonflame could get picked but if we use a check for our final pokemon then they won't. The limited picks left are why they can't really.
Also Terrakion isn't a win condition but a pokemon to punch holes as well as set up rocks.
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But that's not the point of a lead Pokemon- Sash Terrakion is a dedicated lead 9 times out of 10. We shouldn't be setting up an SD when we need to set up rocks and the whole premise of the argument about how good SD is pertains to the fact he's good at +2, when he's never going to get there. Terrakion doesn't have three turns to do damage, he only has two- Rocks -> Attack -> Die or switch to be used for death fodder later. He's going to be incredibly easy to counter (Golurk is still a very good counter, Aegislash also shuts him down if he lacks EQ like you want him to) and he's going to be absolutely deadweight as a lead if he doesn't carry EQ because Team 1 will just start out with Aegislash, Flash Cannon or Iron Head down to sash, and you're forced to switch because Aegi will just Shadow Sneak, Team 1 will switch in a spinner/defogger, and now you're playing with 5 Pokemon and you don't have rocks because you made a stupid decision to use SD over EQ in a place where being able to have as little counters as possible is how a team wins. Even if by some miraculous chance you get to +2, it's only a 3HKO on Shield forme provided you hit all three, and if you try to SD again then you'll be KO'd. EQ has a very high chance to OHKO a 252 hp / 252 atk/spa / 4 def Aegi, and it forces a counter Aegi to run full investment in defense to avoid an OHKO which causes it to lose a lot of attacking prowess, causing Terrak to still win the 1v1 at full health because it can't 2hko with steel stab + shadow sneak. EQ is superior in every regard at this point, and the only reason to run SD is if you're running it over rocks.
Let me address to why I chose mixed terrakion over rocks
We want to introduce our utility as late as possible,so that team 1 can only counter it with their last pokemon and also push team 1 to the backfoot with a wall breaker and limit their last pick from beating both utility mons,with the support of other pokemon imagine it as building a team,a utility mon is a kind of glue most of the time which comes last
We want to introduce our utility as late as possible,so that team 1 can only counter it with their last pokemon and also push team 1 to the backfoot with a wall breaker and limit their last pick from beating both utility mons,with the support of other pokemon imagine it as building a team,a utility mon is a kind of glue most of the time which comes last
Ok, so we have three different variants of Terrakion to choose from. We have LO, Sash + EQ, and Sash + SD. So which one is best? Every set has CC + SE which allows Terrakion to hit the vast majority of picks Team 1 could make. Since a neutral CC hits for almost as much damage as a super effective EQ, the only viable Pokemon in OU which EQ hits significantly harder is Aegislash (Toxicroak and the Nidos suck). The only threat HP Ice hits harder is Gliscor (Team 1 cannot pick Landorus-T because it already has Landorus-I, and species clause still applies here) and SE does almost as much damage to Landorus-I as HP Ice (HP Ice is just more accurate). So EQ and HP Ice are situational moves which are only useful against one potential target apiece.
After some thinking and changing my mind, I personally think a LO set is the best way to go here. The problem with Focus Sash is that it is too easy to break the Sash with priority and hazards to make it work consistently. Also, Team 1 has Ferrothorn which can be sacrificed to Terrakion to break its Sash with Iron Barbs in an emergency. Life Orb allows Terrakion to be a much more immediate threat to potential Team 1 picks like Quagsire, Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory which can otherwise wall Terrakion if it has a Focus Sash.
That being said, I suggest that Arhan replace HP Ice with Stealth Rock (or vyomov change his item to Life Orb). If Team 1 really wants to pick Gliscor, I say go ahead because it isn't that great and is already checked well by Mega Scizor and Greninja. SR on Terrakion is a good option since most hazard removers don't enjoy taking a Life Orb CC or SE. It allows Terrakion to do something useful if Team 1 picks a solid counter like Hippowdon. Getting SR out of the way now also gives Team 2 more flexibility with its later picks to pick revenge killers, sweepers, and hazard removers with its last two picks.
After some thinking and changing my mind, I personally think a LO set is the best way to go here. The problem with Focus Sash is that it is too easy to break the Sash with priority and hazards to make it work consistently. Also, Team 1 has Ferrothorn which can be sacrificed to Terrakion to break its Sash with Iron Barbs in an emergency. Life Orb allows Terrakion to be a much more immediate threat to potential Team 1 picks like Quagsire, Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory which can otherwise wall Terrakion if it has a Focus Sash.
That being said, I suggest that Arhan replace HP Ice with Stealth Rock (or vyomov change his item to Life Orb). If Team 1 really wants to pick Gliscor, I say go ahead because it isn't that great and is already checked well by Mega Scizor and Greninja. SR on Terrakion is a good option since most hazard removers don't enjoy taking a Life Orb CC or SE. It allows Terrakion to do something useful if Team 1 picks a solid counter like Hippowdon. Getting SR out of the way now also gives Team 2 more flexibility with its later picks to pick revenge killers, sweepers, and hazard removers with its last two picks.
Focus sash was also added as some insurance against Mega Zard X or Mega Gyarados. It also almost gurantees rocks which can whittle down at team 1. Finally it could mean a potential check/ counter would have go take a hit before bringing down Terrakion.
Also if team 1 pick another ground type isn't that good for team 2 as it reduces the synergy. Also most of Terrakions checks/counters are taken care of by its teamates.
Also if team 1 pick another ground type isn't that good for team 2 as it reduces the synergy. Also most of Terrakions checks/counters are taken care of by its teamates.
The thing is I think Lead Sash Terrakion is only a good idea outside of a project like this. Some teams come completely unprepared for it and rocks are able to stay up for the entire game. Since Team 1 will be able to directly counter this pick, they can easily just go for a Priority Taunt user or faster/priority attack user since Terrakion has so many common weaknesses to priority. I think choosing a fighting type pokemon is a good idea this round since Team 1 is fighting weak, but Terrakion is not the choice I think would put Team 2 into the best position. All Team 1 would have to do is pick Starmie and this Lead Sash Terrakion plan is all over because it knocks him down to his sash and then outspeeds and KO's with Rapid Spin and getting rid of those rocks. After that, they can make sure the rocks will stay by picking something that hits ghosts for super effective damage to ensure that they cannot spinblock a rapid spin attempt. Gengar automatically isn't a choice, unless its Scarfed, since it gets outsped and OHKO'd by a psychic type attack from Starmie. This leaves Aegislash, Sableye, Trevenent, Gourgeist, and Chandelure as some of the viable ghost types in OU. Something like (Mega) Absol would crush all of these pokemon quite easily.
This isn't something that is definite but I feel like a Starmie pick would put Team 1 into too good of a situation with another pick at their finger tips if Sash SR Terrakion was chosen.
This isn't something that is definite but I feel like a Starmie pick would put Team 1 into too good of a situation with another pick at their finger tips if Sash SR Terrakion was chosen.
Agreeing with G-Von that Lead Terrakion isn't the greatest idea, I was only defending Earthquake, not the Pokemon. Lead Terrakion leaves Team 1 in an easy position to pick Starmie like he suggested, Air Balloon physically attacking Aegislash (Iron Head + Shadow Sneak KOs), Prankster mons like Thundurus (who is already a monster at exerting offensive pressure regardless) or Sableye, Espeon/Mega Absol, or set up the easy decision to make the revenge killer a scarfer who can easily check Terrakion such as Keldeo or Gyarados. As far as Megas go, picking Terrakion might actually give Mega Blastoise a reality because they would generally want a spinner who could beat Terrakion 1v1 and Mega Blastoise fits that role. Not that I think any nomination is painfully obvious that it's better than the rest though, Team 2 is in a really tough spot right now.
Well, I certainly don't mind changing the item to LO over Sash, so this is the FINAL submission
Terrakion@Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP
Nature: Jolly
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
I think this set, based on the discussion, is the most optimal - it hits like a truck, provides us with SR and can easily come in late game on Ferro's Knock Off and get a +1 boost and sweep towards the end. The main disadvantage is that counterpicks such as M-Blastoise or Starmie might be a problem - but Scizor already checks Starmie and we can always check M-Blastoise with our last pick.
Terrakion@Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP
Nature: Jolly
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
I think this set, based on the discussion, is the most optimal - it hits like a truck, provides us with SR and can easily come in late game on Ferro's Knock Off and get a +1 boost and sweep towards the end. The main disadvantage is that counterpicks such as M-Blastoise or Starmie might be a problem - but Scizor already checks Starmie and we can always check M-Blastoise with our last pick.
I'm not exactly experienced enough to post a nomination and I don't think I'm qualified to vote, but I'm just throwing this out here as a stats thing. We have two Terrakion variants being argued over. If 4 people want SD and 3 people want EQ, while 5 people want a different mon (I don't remember the rest of the nominations, let's just say Cresselia), Cresselia will be chosen as the next pick even though more people want a Terrakion than a Cresselia. I highly recommend everyone decides on ONE Terrakion to use so that the votes don't get split.
EDIT: I'm not sure if this can be implemented, but could a possible voting system be that in cases like this, the Pokemon is voted on first, and then, if a Pokemon with multiple nominations wins, the moveset/nature/EVs/etc. are voted on after, and the one with the most votes gets used? The second voting would still occur before the next team picks their Pokemon to keep it fair, but it would prevent quagmires like this. Just a thought.
EDIT: I'm not sure if this can be implemented, but could a possible voting system be that in cases like this, the Pokemon is voted on first, and then, if a Pokemon with multiple nominations wins, the moveset/nature/EVs/etc. are voted on after, and the one with the most votes gets used? The second voting would still occur before the next team picks their Pokemon to keep it fair, but it would prevent quagmires like this. Just a thought.
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Anyone can post a nomination, but you need at least 50 posts to vote,
I feel like this is starting to turn into "so what's the best Terrakion variant we can use?" instead of "what's the best pick we can make at this point?". It is literally weak to every single special move by Landorus, Ferrothorn's Power Whip and hindered by T-wave, and Cube's EP. It literally has no chance of switching in on any of the pokemon that have been chosen by Team 1 and will only continue at this pace. Sure, my selection faces similar problems but at least it resists a decent chunk of priority moves so its speed actually matters. If it wasn't for compounding major weaknesses, I would probably love Thundurus and Noivern. I actually kinda like the Infernape pick but I just find the mixed set a little too easy to counter. Chandelure and Jellicent wall Infernape to hell and back and can hinder Scizor with a burn, and Chandelure can even outspeed it without any investment.Well, I certainly don't mind changing the item to LO over Sash, so this is the FINAL submission
Terrakion@Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP
Nature: Jolly
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
I think this set, based on the discussion, is the most optimal - it hits like a truck, provides us with SR and can easily come in late game on Ferro's Knock Off and get a +1 boost and sweep towards the end. The main disadvantage is that counterpicks such as M-Blastoise or Starmie might be a problem - but Scizor already checks Starmie and we can always check M-Blastoise with our last pick.
Anyway, does anyone have an opinion on whether I should stick with HP Flying on Keldeo or should I change it to a different type?
Even if you change it to a different type, Specially Defensive Jellicent still walls you to hell and back
your set: 252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 110-132 (27.2 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
with Specs: 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 136-162 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Hence, you are not getting past it anytime soon.
HP Flying against Venusaur, let's see what happens
it swaps in so it is unevolved:
1) 252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 113-134 (31 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
2) 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Then, Mega Evolution
1) 252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 101-120 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- 90.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
2) 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 124-148 (34 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
This shows that Expert Belt Keldeo is too weak to get past Mega Venusaur either. You need the power of Specs (and a little damage on Venusaur) for that. I believe Expert Belt Keldeo was so successful last generation because it can bluff a Choice item and the permanent rain allows it to it neutral targets hard while using HP to demolish would-be counters. This generation, with the HP nerf, EB Keldeo feels very weak though.
EDIT: Forgot to answer the question/ Go with HP Flying then since you aren't hitting anything relevant with Ghost anyway (I don't think they will pick Jellicent now)
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So after all that, would you like to answer the question instead of critiquing my item choice?
K here are the nominations:
LO Thundurus
LO Mixed Infernape
HP Ice Terrakion
LO Noivern
EBelt Keldeo
Banded Talonflame
SR Bisharp
Sash SD Terrakion
BD Azumarill
SDef Sylveon
LO EQ Terrakion
Please PM me with your top 3 choices in both the message AND the subject of the PM. Voting will end in 2 days.
LO Thundurus
LO Mixed Infernape
HP Ice Terrakion
LO Noivern
EBelt Keldeo
Banded Talonflame
SR Bisharp
Sash SD Terrakion
BD Azumarill
SDef Sylveon
LO EQ Terrakion
Please PM me with your top 3 choices in both the message AND the subject of the PM. Voting will end in 2 days.
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Yes
At least I did that last round and it was fine
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