Better mixed bulk is a moot point when the overwhelming percentage of priority attacks are physical and that Aggron has Filter and a mono-Steel typing to protect him from revenge kills. Not to mention Mega Aggron's physical defense and typing are leagues better than Tyranitar's, while attack is comparable enough that they still OHKO or 2HKO most similar threats. Mega Aggron is not outclassed whatsoever. It's insane physical defense, which is more important when in comes to revenging because of said priority moves, compounded by Filter and no 4x weaknesses means it's one bulky mofo. Tyranitar's MAIN pros over Mega Aggron are that Sand can handle Focus Sash users and that it's STABs are way better. Otherwise Aggron is MUCH harder to revenge kill.
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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Let me throw in my two cents about Tough Claws Honchkrow:
It is the single most broken Theorymon I've seen. Ever.
Sure, it's bulk is meh, but if you invest into attack anyway, you have a seriously overpowered threat on your hands:
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 338-400 (104.3 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Let's compare that to a BellyJet Azumarill...
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 223-264 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
DAMN. That's AFTER a Belly Drum
Of course you're saying "But Hclegend, it's super effective! It does double damage! So of COURSE it's going to outdamage a Azumarill!"
True, so let's compare it to a Mega Aggron...
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 153-180 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 114-136 (33.1 - 39.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Okay, it's quite a bit less damage. But remember: Azumarill used HALF IT'S HP in order to QUADUPLE it's damage. It's all well and good comparing Honchkrow to one of OUs finest threats, but what about a fellow Sucker Puncher?
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 87-103 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Yeah, THAT'S pretty badass. When one of the most powerful OU threats is outdamaged by this, it's pretty damn powerful (And remember, this is MEGA AGGRON. Base 230 DEFENCE! So in reality, the difference is bigger, I just wanted to point this out)
Of course, you might be saying "But Hclegend, how do you think its overpowered if it barely outdamages Bisharp?" Easy. It doesn't just give competition to Bisharp, but both Talonflame and Staraptor!
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Well, would you look at that? Scarf Raptor outdamages BANDED Talonflame! Learn something new everyday)
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 363-426 (89.8 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Holy. Shit. On. A. Stick. Do you see why I think it's overpowered NOW? Okay, so it's Bisharp mixed with Staraptor with around 1.3x more damage AND the ability to switch moves!
Of course, it's not TOTALLY overpowerd, Base 71 speed is pretty slow (Sucker Punch makes up for it somewhat) and its 100/52/52 defences are just average (or worse than that I guess), but Staraptors 85/70/60 defences aren't exactly Shuckle level ether, and Talonflames 78/71/69(lol) defences aren't making it shine either.
TL:DR, I believe Honchkrow getting Tough Claws would be batshit insane overpowered (and I would totally vote for it because it's Staraptor on steroids!)
(Quick Note: I don't have an opinion on the other theorymons. I'm sorry :( )
It is the single most broken Theorymon I've seen. Ever.
Sure, it's bulk is meh, but if you invest into attack anyway, you have a seriously overpowered threat on your hands:
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 338-400 (104.3 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Let's compare that to a BellyJet Azumarill...
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 223-264 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
DAMN. That's AFTER a Belly Drum
Of course you're saying "But Hclegend, it's super effective! It does double damage! So of COURSE it's going to outdamage a Azumarill!"
True, so let's compare it to a Mega Aggron...
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 153-180 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 114-136 (33.1 - 39.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Okay, it's quite a bit less damage. But remember: Azumarill used HALF IT'S HP in order to QUADUPLE it's damage. It's all well and good comparing Honchkrow to one of OUs finest threats, but what about a fellow Sucker Puncher?
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 87-103 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Yeah, THAT'S pretty badass. When one of the most powerful OU threats is outdamaged by this, it's pretty damn powerful (And remember, this is MEGA AGGRON. Base 230 DEFENCE! So in reality, the difference is bigger, I just wanted to point this out)
Of course, you might be saying "But Hclegend, how do you think its overpowered if it barely outdamages Bisharp?" Easy. It doesn't just give competition to Bisharp, but both Talonflame and Staraptor!
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Well, would you look at that? Scarf Raptor outdamages BANDED Talonflame! Learn something new everyday)
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 363-426 (89.8 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Holy. Shit. On. A. Stick. Do you see why I think it's overpowered NOW? Okay, so it's Bisharp mixed with Staraptor with around 1.3x more damage AND the ability to switch moves!
Of course, it's not TOTALLY overpowerd, Base 71 speed is pretty slow (Sucker Punch makes up for it somewhat) and its 100/52/52 defences are just average (or worse than that I guess), but Staraptors 85/70/60 defences aren't exactly Shuckle level ether, and Talonflames 78/71/69(lol) defences aren't making it shine either.
TL:DR, I believe Honchkrow getting Tough Claws would be batshit insane overpowered (and I would totally vote for it because it's Staraptor on steroids!)
(Quick Note: I don't have an opinion on the other theorymons. I'm sorry :( )
i think no one should vote for honchcrow because it would totally ruin staraptor
do this for staraptor, not for honchcrow
do this for staraptor, not for honchcrow
Just wondering alexwolf did you see the theorymons I sent you?
Not much to say about mega aggron apart from its offensive set gets better
Same with honchkrow, I dont really know why anyone would use a defensive honchkrow set when with full special defense investment it has the equivalent of 70hp/70spd with full spd investment, and thats really awful. And it has stealth rock weakness, and hurts itself through life orbs or brave birds.
That being said, its sucker punch just becomes ridiculously strong. It has a good chance of ohkoing anything neutral to it with 90/90 defenses or less after stealth rock, which means a large number of attackers are just forced to switch. Thats kinda crazy, but I wont call it unbalanced considering talonflame exists. It is still crazy strong tho, and can deal 50% to even mons that resist such as bisharp.
Poison/Dark umbreon seems decent enough. Poison/Dark is great typing and Umbreon has good mixed bulk and can provide offense with no investment due to STAB foul play. In particular, its a great typing to deal with ghosts like aegislash and gengar as it can repeatedly take hits from it and can avoid being set up on by aegislash due to foul play.
Drizzle Noivern seems really interesting and is a cool theorymon to discuss- although it does mean overlapping dragon typing if you are hoping to abuse kingdra in your rain team.
What noivern does very well is provide a good counter to charizard-Y. While politoed can't take repeated hits from Charizard despite resisting most of its movepool, Noivern has access to roost and with 0 defensive investment takes 34% from focus blast, 23% from fire blast, and 0 from earthquake. Politied can take up to 46% from focus blast meaning repeated switch-ins can hurt after a while. The only thing that Noivern has to fear is air slash, but Noivern can still outspeed and deal 80% when returning with a life orb draco meteor. I'd really be interested to see this one in action, partly because it might force a different style of rain if people want to avoid using double-dragon types.
Not much to say about mega aggron apart from its offensive set gets better
Same with honchkrow, I dont really know why anyone would use a defensive honchkrow set when with full special defense investment it has the equivalent of 70hp/70spd with full spd investment, and thats really awful. And it has stealth rock weakness, and hurts itself through life orbs or brave birds.
That being said, its sucker punch just becomes ridiculously strong. It has a good chance of ohkoing anything neutral to it with 90/90 defenses or less after stealth rock, which means a large number of attackers are just forced to switch. Thats kinda crazy, but I wont call it unbalanced considering talonflame exists. It is still crazy strong tho, and can deal 50% to even mons that resist such as bisharp.
Poison/Dark umbreon seems decent enough. Poison/Dark is great typing and Umbreon has good mixed bulk and can provide offense with no investment due to STAB foul play. In particular, its a great typing to deal with ghosts like aegislash and gengar as it can repeatedly take hits from it and can avoid being set up on by aegislash due to foul play.
Drizzle Noivern seems really interesting and is a cool theorymon to discuss- although it does mean overlapping dragon typing if you are hoping to abuse kingdra in your rain team.
What noivern does very well is provide a good counter to charizard-Y. While politoed can't take repeated hits from Charizard despite resisting most of its movepool, Noivern has access to roost and with 0 defensive investment takes 34% from focus blast, 23% from fire blast, and 0 from earthquake. Politied can take up to 46% from focus blast meaning repeated switch-ins can hurt after a while. The only thing that Noivern has to fear is air slash, but Noivern can still outspeed and deal 80% when returning with a life orb draco meteor. I'd really be interested to see this one in action, partly because it might force a different style of rain if people want to avoid using double-dragon types.
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My main problem with Poison type Umbreon is that it bores me. Would anyone seriously be particularly excited about using it? Theorymon is fantasy fulfillment after all.
Drizzle Noivern is kinda cool I guess, but does rain offense really need the buff? It's already the dominant weather type, why give people more reason to use it? Plus the flavour is off - doesn't rain mess with bats echolocation or something?
I like Honchcrow, so seeing it as a top tier threat might be cool, but giving it this raw power doesn't seem that good for the meta. Do we REALLY need another back-breakingly strong priority? Especially Dark type? Bisharp itself is already such a threat to entire teams, introducing a Pokemon with comparable abilities is a questionable move when overcentralization is a bad thing.
I like Shift Gear Aggron. I'll admit, partly because I really like Mega Aggron and want it to be a comparable threat to Mega Tyranitar. I've used Rock Polish M-Aggron before and it is definitely effective - the power boost is all it really needs to be a true threat. The advantage Aggron has over other setup sweepers is its crazy natural defensive capabilities. It is so difficult to revenge that setting up with it is like having a rocket propelled tank on your side of the field. It makes the feeling of playing with it substantially different from others in my experience and really cool. it's a very fun choice and very deserved buff.
Drizzle Noivern is kinda cool I guess, but does rain offense really need the buff? It's already the dominant weather type, why give people more reason to use it? Plus the flavour is off - doesn't rain mess with bats echolocation or something?
I like Honchcrow, so seeing it as a top tier threat might be cool, but giving it this raw power doesn't seem that good for the meta. Do we REALLY need another back-breakingly strong priority? Especially Dark type? Bisharp itself is already such a threat to entire teams, introducing a Pokemon with comparable abilities is a questionable move when overcentralization is a bad thing.
I like Shift Gear Aggron. I'll admit, partly because I really like Mega Aggron and want it to be a comparable threat to Mega Tyranitar. I've used Rock Polish M-Aggron before and it is definitely effective - the power boost is all it really needs to be a true threat. The advantage Aggron has over other setup sweepers is its crazy natural defensive capabilities. It is so difficult to revenge that setting up with it is like having a rocket propelled tank on your side of the field. It makes the feeling of playing with it substantially different from others in my experience and really cool. it's a very fun choice and very deserved buff.
4x resist to Water and immunity to Electric? GG, any Rotom-W lacking HP Ice.
I was coming by to post that exact same thing XD to think Swampert has Swift Swim of all things..
I feel as if me posting anything on this slate seems slightly redundant at this point I will reiterate one of my earlier sentiments: We have great addition, too much addition and all. I look forward to the voting phase cause it looks like there may be a more split ground here than the past votes (especially the Drought Terra vote).
Dark/Poison Umbreon is cool, can avoid toxic, has 2 less weaknesses and is not toxic-able, but, honestly, he doesn't fit flavour wise: Eevelutions have a single typing.
Still, a really cool mon, thumbs up for it.
Tough Claws Honchkrow: Nope, I had enough power creep for now, and I don't want something with even more power.
Drizzle Noivern: Just no: as they said, this is veeeery weak.
Shift Gear Aggron: Oh, interesting.
I really like this one, basically Rock Polish plus a little more power.
However, this isn't shifting gears anytime soon, especially because it doesn't have gears.
Still, a really cool mon, thumbs up for it.
Tough Claws Honchkrow: Nope, I had enough power creep for now, and I don't want something with even more power.
Drizzle Noivern: Just no: as they said, this is veeeery weak.
Shift Gear Aggron: Oh, interesting.
I really like this one, basically Rock Polish plus a little more power.
However, this isn't shifting gears anytime soon, especially because it doesn't have gears.
Genesect also can learn Shift Gear and doesn't have any either. It doesn't necessarily mean literal gear, but think more like driving a manual car. You shift gear which changes your capabilities. Think Luffy from One Piece if you're familiar.
Latios would make a good partner with Aggron. Naturally fast and can take Ground, Fire and Fighting moves.
I see what you mean whith umbreon, but i think if you read its dex entries and what it says when it levels up in PMD, you may change your mind.
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It's never meant to be a strong rain abuser itself, but a supporter, having possibly everything a rain team ever needs support for. Just saying.
Edit: awaiting various campaign speeches
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Many things have been built on simple traditions, and one of the latest competitors has come to try and crush it with its dynamic typing. Family seems to mean nothing to this candidate, making it show that it would throw its own kin underneath a bus without a second thought. This voting period, vote on tradition, and not for the one who throws it away by dashing its brethren with new toys and tricks.
Paid for by the committee to stop Umbreon from winning.
Paid for by the committee to stop Umbreon from winning.
Espeon, Sylveon, and Vaporeon have already betrayed Umbreon and the rest of the Eeveelutions when they left the family to join Scolipede, Smeargle, and Zapdos to form the BP gang. Is that any way to repay Umbreon who was the breadwinner of the family before Game Freak killed trap passing and gave Espeon Magic Bounce? It would be justice to give Umbreon its dignity back while the cops bust Espeon, Vaporeon, and Sylveon for all of the murdering they have done on the OU ladder.
Edit: I did some research on the Eon family history. It turns out that Umbr Eon and Esp Eon were married and they had three children: Leaf, Glac, and Sylv. Umb thought it was strange that Sylv had Stored Power even though Umb didn't know the move and Sylv was born in the Unova Region so it could take vocal lessons, so Umb couldn't be the father since he didn't know Stored Power. It turns out that a paternity test revealed that the father of Sylv Eon was actually Swoo Bat, who just happens to be the cousin of Noi Vern. So Sylv Eon is the illegitimate child of Noi Vern's cousin. Consider that when you are voting.
Paid for by the committee against electing bats
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The voting booths had remained open longer than required, hoping that in some shape and form more voters would flood the gates sooner rather than later. Little did the voting booth workers know is that all their promotional campaigning had not made it to the masses, making the candidates much weaker and closer than in votes past, showing that really, a good slogan and form can save them all.
With a sad heart, they released this press release-
"On this day, we are sad to announce that we will be out of commission for the upcoming voting period of Jun 16-18 due to fundamental matters. With this, we had hoped we could have gotten a bigger turn out than we did with us soon having to temporarily close, but in the end, we got a rather close spread out match. Here are the results:
Dark/Poison Umbreon- 6
Drizzle Noivern- 3
Tough Claws Honchkrow- 0 (it is said this candidate was inspired by one of the booth mans bet birds who wore a top hat frequently. It died soon after it learned no one cared for it)
Shift Gear Aggron- 7
Once more thank you for your time, and we hope to see you again one last time
-Voting Booth Operators"
Congratulations SHIFT GEAR AGGRON!
That is true though I wont be able to do anything on the 16-18 though. So as always, there is truth there. And everyone pat Dry Paratroopa on the back for guessing wrong of a landslide. Alls well that ends well.
With a sad heart, they released this press release-
"On this day, we are sad to announce that we will be out of commission for the upcoming voting period of Jun 16-18 due to fundamental matters. With this, we had hoped we could have gotten a bigger turn out than we did with us soon having to temporarily close, but in the end, we got a rather close spread out match. Here are the results:
Dark/Poison Umbreon- 6
Drizzle Noivern- 3
Tough Claws Honchkrow- 0 (it is said this candidate was inspired by one of the booth mans bet birds who wore a top hat frequently. It died soon after it learned no one cared for it)
Shift Gear Aggron- 7
Once more thank you for your time, and we hope to see you again one last time
-Voting Booth Operators"
Congratulations SHIFT GEAR AGGRON!
That is true though I wont be able to do anything on the 16-18 though. So as always, there is truth there. And everyone pat Dry Paratroopa on the back for guessing wrong of a landslide. Alls well that ends well.
Sorry guys, but i have to announce the temporary closing of this thread. Participation is lower than ever, good posts are sparse, the ladder is almost dead, the number of voters is also lower than ever, and i just don't get enough worthwhile suggestions to constantly create interesting slates. Maybe i will reopen it if something changes, but i really don't know so don't hold your breath about it.
Thanks to everyone that participated and helped keep this thread alive, it was very enjoyable to talk with you guys about our nerdy fantasies regarding Pokemon!
The ladder with the theorymons of May will remain until the end of June btw, although the new theorymons still haven't been implemented.
PM me about anything you want to talk about regarding this thread.
Thanks to everyone that participated and helped keep this thread alive, it was very enjoyable to talk with you guys about our nerdy fantasies regarding Pokemon!
The ladder with the theorymons of May will remain until the end of June btw, although the new theorymons still haven't been implemented.
PM me about anything you want to talk about regarding this thread.
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