XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

[Red Cat]

I'll say as someone who is against nerfing Baton Pass that alexwolf and Doughboy make good nuanced points explaining their position. They are 100% correct that you cannot beat Baton Pass teams (barring luck) unless you have a counter to the team.

While that statement is correct, I do think they are underestimating the importance of team matchups generally in Gen VI. I think there are many other occurrences where your opponent has you beat based on the team they bring into battle (and I'm not talking about noob teams on the low ladder), and there is no playing around it. To be honest, I would have been fully in support of a BP nerf if the council went after some of the other Pokemon which bring major team matchup issues into OU before going after Swag Play and Baton Pass. I just hope this suspect test is really about being the first step of several eliminating elements of the game which make team matchup a major problem in Gen VI OU and not just part of an ongoing witch-hunt after non-conventional playstyles. Based on most of the comments I've read here, with the exception of alexwolf, Doughboy, and a few others, I think most of the people posting here in favor of a BP nerf do not understand that nuanced point, and I'm not really a fan of appeasing that crowd if they want to nerf BP for the wrong reasons instead of the right reasons because it may lead to suspecting things for the wrong reasons going forward.

Edit: Ok, I didn't explain the whole slippery slope thing very well. If A happens it is silly to automatically conclude that C will happen. If A and B both happen, it is reasonable to say that there is at least a strong possibility that C will happen. In this case, A is the Swag Play ban, B is the potential Baton Pass nerf, and C is a nerf or ban to another playstyle because people don't like it. Based on most (but not all) of the comments I have read in both the Swag Play and Baton Pass threads, it seems to me like people want to ban stuff because they just don't like playing against it which is an anti-competitive reason to ban something.

 

[Karxrida]

I'll say as someone who is against nerfing Baton Pass that alexwolf and Doughboy make good nuanced points explaining their position. They are 100% correct that you cannot beat Baton Pass teams (barring luck) unless you have a counter to the team.

While that statement is correct, I do think they are underestimating the importance of team matchups generally in Gen VI. I think there are many other occurrences where your opponent has you beat based on the team they bring into battle (and I'm not talking about noob teams on the low ladder), and there is no playing around it. To be honest, I would have been fully in support of a BP nerf if the council went after some of the other Pokemon which bring major team matchup issues into OU before going after Swag Play and Baton Pass. I just hope this suspect test is really about being the first step of several eliminating elements of the game which make team matchup a major problem in Gen VI OU and not just part of an ongoing witch-hunt after non-conventional playstyles. Based on most of the comments I've read here, with the exception of alexwolf, Doughboy, and a few others, I think most of the people posting here in favor of a BP nerf do not understand that nuanced point, and I'm not really a fan of appeasing that crowd if they want to nerf BP for the wrong reasons instead of the right reasons because it may lead to suspecting things for the wrong reasons going forward.

So what you're saying is you don't want to nerf it because of a slippery slope?
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That's not stupid at all.

 

[Derpinator]

So what you're saying is you don't want to nerf it because of a slippery slope?
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That's not stupid at all.

I don't have the patience to go back and count the number of times people have said that was a logical fallacy, although I don't understand why people would even need to say it.

 

[Video Gamer]

Option 2:Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team
I personally don't think that baton pass is healthy for the metagame because when facing/using a baton pass team, a lot of the time it comes down to whether or not you have a counter to baton pass. If you are bring something like a haze or prankster taunt, the game becomes rather one-sided. However, if a team isn't prepared for baton pass, it is usually an easy win for the baton pass user (unless there's some nice crits involved). I am in favour of the second option because speed boost could be replaced by agility, and teams could go without a magic bounce user (although they would struggle). Furthermore, almost every bp team is extremely similar, if not identical, and the use of it rarely encourages creative team building. Thank you for considering my vote.

 

[aVocado]

If someone else becomes really innovative and creates a Trick Room team or some other non-traditional team archetype which peaks number 1 on the ladder, are we going to nerf / ban that too? Is Smogon’s response to innovative teambuilding going to be to find innovative solutions to beat those teams or to use the banlist to get rid of those teams? The former is the only option for a serious competitive battling community. Sorry for the excessively long post, and good luck to those who want to vote for Option 1.

No. You can't say that Baton Pass doesn't deserve to be nerfed because another broken strategy exists; and I'm NOT saying Trick Room is broken. So what if it reached #1? Not every #1 team is broken, and you can't say HO/Stall/Balance/HailRoom/Gravity teams are broken if they reach #1.

Your argument is invalid because you think any playstyle that reaches #1 = broken, and that quoted part reflects that. If TR reaches #1, then good for them, the creator of the team did something right. dEnnis did something right too, and it turned out to be -too- good for the metagame to handle and that it's extremely centralizing. Trick Room will never be like that.

Innovative teambuilding can co-exist with a balanced metagame, even though OU is far from balanced even without Baton Pass.

 

[alexwolf]

Taunt thunderus great for beating stall
taunt sabeleye also quite good in general for stopping deoxysD setting up wrocks also good stallbreaker
Hyper voice sylveon great wallbreaker
Mega Gardevoir and Mega Zam also just both good pokemon
Breloom does great vs other styles
Mega Pinsir incredible poke
Shedninja beats rain offense a lot
MegaHeracross another great pokemon that can sweep and wallbreak
Ditto great against offense
Cloyster can be a great sweeper
DeoxyS is another great pokemon that can cause a lot of problems for lots of team
Whimisicott also a problem pokemon for lots of teams.

to name a few

Really the proban side is rehashing the same arguments more than anything: Baton pass is evil, its uncounterable, its for noobs, it counters are niche. Then when the antiban side says anything you just keep stating this over and over.

You are missing the point. None of those Pokemon can fit into defensive teams, and some Pokemon you mentioned are just horrible and unviable, such as Shedinja and Cloyster. Defensive teams have to use gimmick moves and sets to deal with Baton Pass teams, and that is a troubling sign for Baton Pass teams. Furthermore, no other Pokemon or playstyle in OU punishes so much a team for not having checks or counters to it. If you don't have any check to Baton Pass teams you will lose, while other weaknesses can be remedied with good team building, offensive pressure, entry hazards, and good prediction. That's the two biggest issues with Baton Pass teams, so i suggest that if you want to argue with the pro-ban Baton Pass side that you try to address those issues.

And no post gets deleted because of the stance you are taking in regards to Baton Pass teams. Posts get deleted because:

1. They lack substance. Eg. ''Thank you for posting this i agree with you.'' or ''Baton Pass teams are perfectly fine if you prepare for them, stop trying to ban everything.''
2. They have wrong information or show lack of metagame knowledge by the poster. Eg. ''Stealth Rock is not a good option on any team that uses Defog.''
3. They talk about other ways to deal with Baton Pass teams other than those stated in the OP.
4. The usual rules for flooding, flaming, etc

 

[radianthero156]

I think the baton pass strategy is not broken in the sense of the word (as in broken like deoxys-a). In my opinion, and i'm pretty sure that a lot of players agree with me, baton pass chains need to be nerfed because of the pressure it puts into teambuilding. I know every threat must be accounted for in teambuilding, but every threat that is at least balanced can be countered or checked by other top mons. For instance, Bisharp is an incredible threat, and if you don't prepare for it it'll certainly destroy your team, but you can use Keldeo to check it, and your team doesn't get punished for that, since Keldeo is a really good pokemon. I remember i swept the same player twice on the ladder using Mega Scizor; he commented with me that he had a Mega Manectric on his team, but he swapped it with Mega Alakazam just to have a chance against baton pass, and this made his team susceptible to other threats, like talonflame, thundurus and mega scizor. So i ask you advocates of bp, is this the metagame you want?

 

[Derpinator]

Edit: For those claiming the slippery slope fallacy, I was really surprised that BP was the next thing suspected after Swag Play. IMO, the slippery slope has already been realized. Doughboy alluded to us going after the playstyle of the month in one of his posts, and I really do think that is becoming the trend.

I'm not sure you understand why this is a logical fallacy or what a logical fallacy is for that matter. The slippery slope argument is that, following one event, another event will inevitably happen for no reason other than the fact that the original event occurred. In other words, the following event will occur without any argument supporting that event. Seeing how there is evidently plenty of argument for this event, by claiming that this is purely the consequence of an earlier event, you refuse to address the actual arguments (go figure, called it I suppose) and would rather draw attention to irrelevant hypothetical statements that have no support other than the fact that an event previously happened and now this event is happening.

 

[SparksBlade]

encountered it for the first time, and had to rage quit. it's even worse than being locked into shadow ball against a rattata. It requires no skill, just a knowledge of type matchups that's all. in my battle, my opponent called his/her friends to have "fun". and they admitted this strategy requires no skill. it's just fun to them and bad for the community and good for those who don't give a s*** about serious users. i know all this has been said before(on all 20 pages) and i agree that baton pass needs a nerf. it forces you to either pack prankster+taunt user or an unaware user, and that's a big compromise to be made

 

[matimooo]

Im getting really surprised and worried as i see more and more people thinking to do nothing is the right choise. I find it obvious that something has to be done, but there is just one good alternative in this thread: alternative 2. Alternative 1 is just ridiculous and im not gonna explain why because that was in the over 90 pages long thead. Alternative 3 is also dumb because it limits playstyles that dont need a nerf. Examples for this is a shell pass team with espeon (as roar/whirlwind check) or then having scolipede as boosting speed (and attack) to other pokes.

 

[Vryheid]

I literally cannot fathom how anybody could support the antiban argument unless they are scrubs or legitimately stupid

Allow me to repeat what's already been said in language you can understand:

-You do not need specialized checks or gimmick counters to beat BP teams
-If you can't beat BP chains without some stupid overspecialized gimmick, it's because you are terrible at prediction or have no idea how to fight BP properly
-Try reaching the suspect requirements on the OU test ladder with a standard BP chain, when you're done getting your ass handed to you please tell me how "broken" or "overpowered" it is
-There is a fucking reason 95% of high rated players are not using BP chains on the suspect ladder- it is HARD AS HELL to win with these teams when hyperoffense has so many tools to instantly trap and wipe out a BP chain



For the curious- I feel like I've had enough experience using this team against good players (and seeing other BP users in action) to have an idea of what works against BP and what doesn't. Here's some advice (not a complete guide, I'd have to write pages on that) on how standard hyperoffence cores can beat BP players reliably:

LEADS:
-Landorus, Thundurus, Breloom, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Deoxys-S are all reliable leads against BP chains
-Having more than one of the above threats (Talonflame and Breloom being an especially nasty combination) will often force BP players to make mistakes with their lead, which can put them in an extremely poor situation early game
-Once you know what a BP user is likely to start with, you can take advantage of this fact and send out an offensive threat which immediately forces them to switch

-If you have a Talonflame or Mega Pinsir on your team, expect a BP player to ALWAYS lead with Zapdos.
-Since neither Talonflame or Mega Pinsir will beat Zapdos 1v1, you should immediately switch to a physical attacker like CB Tyranitar which can threaten the entire chain and doesn't die to Thunderbolt

-If you have a Breloom or Landorus on your team, they will almost always lead with Scolipede.
-Landorus should generally be using Stealth Rock turn one if you have it, otherwise alternate between Earth Power and Sludge Bomb (for the inevitable Sylveon switch)
-Breloom needs to be constantly throwing out Rock Tomb, this prevents Speed Boosts from accumulating and makes it difficult for Scolipede to stay in. If you predict an Iron Defense turn one go for Spore instead

-If you have a Thundurus or Deoxys-S, it's a toss up between Sylveon or Scolipede.
-Max speed Deoxys-S will outspeed Denisss's standard Scolipede set at +1, so it's generally a safe bet to Knock Off turn 1 (predicting a possible Espeon switchin) and then try throwing out a Psycho Shift if they Protect
-Thundurus should be Thunderbolting against Scolipede turn one and Thunder Waving against it turn two. Taunt will NOT work against it.
-Both Thundurus and Deoxys-S will lose to to Sylveon 1v1, but Sylveon is an excellent opportunity to bring out a hard hitting attacker that can set up on it like Mega Mawile or Excadrill

VAPOREON TAUNT TRAP:
-Send in a Pokemon that baits out a Vaporeon switchin, then send in a Pokemon with Taunt which outspeeds it (Thundurus being a good example)
-Throw out Taunt and Vaporeon will be unable to do anything, if Ingrain is down it will die to Struggle damage and end the chain (usually winning you the match)
-Late game, this is the absolute best way to ruin a BP chain without banking on moves like Haze (which only delays the inevitable)
-Good baits for Vaporeon include Charizard (either Mega), Mega Mawile, Scizor (only if Zapdos is weakened), Bisharp, Chansey, Tyranitar, and Infernape

MAINTAINING THE PACING OF THE MATCH:
-As stated earlier, most Baton Pass chains have a much more difficult time stopping physical sweepers than special sweepers. This means you should aggressively prevent the likes of Scolipede or Vaporeon from accumulating defensive boosts with the threat of super effective attacks. Because they can't take much damage on the special side, this isn't particularly hard to do.
-Until Ingrain gets up, the threat of Whirlwind/Roar will consistently force Espeon in, which you can predict around and heavily damage it physical attacks
-The threat of hazards function similarly. Send in Ferrothorn into Smeargle, for instance, and they will be forced to take either a possible Leech Seed or have Espeon get demolished by Gyro Ball
-U-turn/Volt Switch can reliably force out Espeon/Vaporeon while maintaining momentum, allowing you to continually apply pressure no matter what they BP to
-Dark type Pokemon can almost always switch in for free on Espeon, forcing it out while you hammer the predicted switchin with status or a super effective coverage move (Bisharp is particularly effective at this)
-Baton Pass reduces the need for prediction, but that doesn't mean you have to be predictable. If, for instance, you know that an opposing Zapdos HAS to switch out of your sweeper, you can immediately send in something like Talonflame (which is usually countered by Zapdos) as they are forced to BP to something else.

OTHER SETS THAT ARE NASTY AGAINST STANDARD BP (AND USEFUL OTHERWISE)
-Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X with Thunder Punch
-Life Orb Gengar with Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb
-Specially offensive Aegislash with Shadow Ball/Iron Head
-Stuff with Taunt that can hit Espeon hard (Gyarados and Terrakion are examples)
-Mixed Kyurem-B
-Choice Band Scizor
-Belly Drum Azumarill
-Tail Glow Manaphy
-Calm Mind Clefable
-Excadrill in the sand- it can outspeed and take out Sylveon even after several boosts
-Anything with Haze (Greninja is an excellent choice)

DEALING WITH SMEARGLE:
-Always have a predetermined Spore absorber, preferably a special attacker since BP chains have an easier time walling them
-Smeargle usually gets knocked to Sash if they try to come in early game, at which point they will either Spore or Ingrain (if they predict your switch out)
-Greedy/inexperienced BP users will try to Ingrain or Quiver Dance after they Spore- you can advantage of this by sending in something with a faster Taunt or a priority attack
-Mach Punch Breloom is the absolute best switchin to a weakened Smeargle, threatening to KO it no matter what move it makes

BATON PASS MIRROR MATCHUPS:
-BP mirrors are a convoluted matchup that often comes down to whoever's Espeon dies first
-If you and your opponent are using BP chains, it's nigh impossible for a BP user without Heart Swap Smeargle to beat one that has the move
-Espeon has a significant advantage offensively against both Zapdos and Sylveon because Secret Power scales up enormously after multiple Calm Minds

-Substitute from Scolipede followed by a quick switch to Smeargle (to get down Ingrain) is generally the best opening in a BP mirror matchup, but if you predict the Smeargle switchin you should go to Sylveon instead to break Smeargle's sash with Hyper Voice
-After a speed boost + Ingrain you need to be boosting up Calm Minds as quickly as possible. Sylveon is bulkier/more threatening at first but eventually you will have to switch to Espeon
-If and when the opposing Espeon goes down, what you do next is entirely dependent on how much health you have left. If you have enough for a sub (you should, if you got Ingrain), it is possible to lock down an opponent's BP team and guarantee yourself a win. I'm assuming that both players are playing ideally (bad BP players will lose no matter what) and both players have Heart Swap Smeargle. How the lockdown works is like this:

-Attack with Espeon's Stored Power as Smeargle steals your boosts, bringing it to 1 HP. Use Substitute the turn after.
-If they stayed in with Smeargle as you used Substitute, attack with Stored Power to force it out
-If they switch to Sylveon, allow it to knock out your Espeon while you Calm Mind up. Bring in Smeargle, use Heart Swap, then either pass to Sylveon and sweep (if they stayed in) or use Spore (if they go to Smeargle as you Heart Swap), which also leads to a sweep.
-If they switch to Scolipede, Zapdos, or Vaporeon, immediately switch to Smeargle and Heart Swap back the boosts. If they attack with Zapdos or use any stat boosting moves/protect as Smeargle comes in, you can Baton Pass the stolen boosts to Sylveon and sweep with Hyper Voice. If they switch to Smeargle as you Heart Swap, Spore as usual and then proceed to sweep.
-If they use Substitute on any of the three above Pokemon as Smeargle comes in and then proceed to switch to their own Smeargle as you Heart Swap, you cannot Spore it back and will be forced into a stall war. However, you will always be 1 PP ahead because they used Heart Swap first and should have no difficulty shuffling around your opponent's team until they eventually are forced to concede a sweep.​

-If for whatever reason you cannot make a sub, things can get messy- your best bet is probably to switch to Scolipede and hope they don't Spore as you do so. Once this happens you get get up your own Substitute easily and aim to proceed as described above.

 

[Srn]

Ok let's dissect this shit and see how many of the things you list don't happen:

Allow me to repeat what's already been said in language you can understand:

-You do not need specialized checks or gimmick counters to beat BP teams
-If you can't beat BP chains without some stupid overspecialized gimmick, it's because you are terrible at prediction or have no idea how to fight BP properly
-Try reaching the suspect requirements on the OU test ladder with a standard BP chain, when you're done getting your ass handed to you please tell me how "broken" or "overpowered" it is
-There is a fucking reason 95% of high rated players are not using BP chains on the suspect ladder- it is HARD AS HELL to win with these teams when hyperoffense has so many tools to instantly trap and wipe out a BP chain

Nah not really. People just don't how to use the style properly. You have to scout everything like denis does, he constantly subs and shit. Basically, getting a sub up > boosts, contrary to popular belief (and thus why the populace often fails with it) is more important.

For the curious- I feel like I've had enough experience using this team against good players (and seeing other BP users in action) to have an idea of what works against BP and what doesn't. Here's some advice (not a complete guide, I'd have to write pages on that) on how standard hyperoffence cores can beat BP players reliably:

LEADS:
-Landorus, Thundurus, Breloom, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Deoxys-S are all reliable leads against BP chains
-Having more than one of the above threats (Talonflame and Breloom being an especially nasty combination) will often force BP players to make mistakes with their lead, which can put them in an extremely poor situation early game
-Once you know what a BP user is likely to start with, you can take advantage of this fact and send out an offensive threat which immediately forces them to switch

Lando/talon/Mega Pinsir can just lead vaporeon, Breloom doesn't even beat scolipede lol, Deo-s and thundurus can't really do much to sylveon as both are 2hko'd by hyper voice and fail to 2hko back.

-If you have a Talonflame or Mega Pinsir on your team, expect a BP player to ALWAYS lead with Zapdos.
-Since neither Talonflame or Mega Pinsir will beat Zapdos 1v1, you should immediately switch to a physical attacker like CB Tyranitar which can threaten the entire chain and doesn't die to Thunderbolt

What if they lead vaporeon? Then they acid armor/roar and win vs cb ttar too. if you predict the 50/50 wrong (because they can either lead vap or zap) then they already are put into a terrible position.

-If you have a Breloom or Landorus on your team, they will almost always lead with Scolipede.
-Landorus should generally be using Stealth Rock turn one if you have it, otherwise alternate between Earth Power and Sludge Bomb (for the inevitable Sylveon switch)

What if they switch in zap? With a decent chunk of sp. def investment Lando cannot break zapdos with roost.

-Breloom needs to be constantly throwing out Rock Tomb, this prevents Speed Boosts from accumulating and makes it difficult for Scolipede to stay in. If you predict an Iron Defense turn one go for Spore instead

Scoli should naturally outspeed atleast breloom, and then it can iron defense to the point where rock tomb does not break a sub. Thus, you're put into another 50/50 where if you predict wrong you're put into a terrible position and probably lose matches.

-If you have a Thundurus or Deoxys-S, it's a toss up between Sylveon or Scolipede.
-Max speed Deoxys-S will outspeed Denisss's standard Scolipede set at +1, so it's generally a safe bet to Knock Off turn 1 (predicting a possible Espeon switchin) and then try throwing out a Psycho Shift if they Protect
-Thundurus should be Thunderbolting against Scolipede turn one and Thunder Waving against it turn two. Taunt will NOT work against it.
-Both Thundurus and Deoxys-S will lose to to Sylveon 1v1, but Sylveon is an excellent opportunity to bring out a hard hitting attacker that can set up on it like Mega Mawile or Excadrill

You mean psycho boost :I
Sylveon can also just scout with baton pass and go straight to vap anyway. Also, SD exca is pretty subpar imo.

VAPOREON TAUNT TRAP:
-Send in a Pokemon that baits out a Vaporeon switchin, then send in a Pokemon with Taunt which outspeeds it (Thundurus being a good example)
-Throw out Taunt and Vaporeon will be unable to do anything, if Ingrain is down it will die to Struggle damage and end the chain (usually winning you the match)
-Late game, this is the absolute best way to ruin a BP chain without banking on moves like Haze (which only delays the inevitable)
-Good baits for Vaporeon include Charizard (either Mega), Mega Mawile, Scizor (only if Zapdos is weakened), Bisharp, Chansey, Tyranitar, and Infernape

By spamming baton pass you can more or less avoid this scenario, and you should be spamming baton pass more than anything to scout. This is how denissss plays.
vap won't switch in on a zard if it isn't revealed, it could be y.

MAINTAINING THE PACING OF THE MATCH:
-As stated earlier, most Baton Pass chains have a much more difficult time stopping physical sweepers than special sweepers. This means you should aggressively prevent the likes of Scolipede or Vaporeon from accumulating defensive boosts with the threat of super effective attacks. Because they can't take much damage on the special side, this isn't particularly hard to do.
-Until Ingrain gets up, the threat of Whirlwind/Roar will consistently force Espeon in, which you can predict around and heavily damage it physical attacks
-The threat of hazards function similarly. Send in Ferrothorn into Smeargle, for instance, and they will be forced to take either a possible Leech Seed or have Espeon get demolished by Gyro Ball
-U-turn/Volt Switch can reliably force out Espeon/Vaporeon while maintaining momentum, allowing you to continually apply pressure no matter what they BP to
-Dark type Pokemon can almost always switch in for free on Espeon, forcing it out while you hammer the predicted switchin with status or a super effective coverage move (Bisharp is particularly effective at this)
-Baton Pass reduces the need for prediction, but that doesn't mean you have to be predictable. If, for instance, you know that an opposing Zapdos HAS to switch out of your sweeper, you can immediately send in something like Talonflame (which is usually countered by Zapdos) as they are forced to BP to something else.

If you have a phazing move on the team, then its pretty easy for smeargle or espeon to switch in. Roar and Whirlwind are quite out of context on an offensive team. Like you said:

Here's some advice (not a complete guide, I'd have to write pages on that) on how standard hyperoffence cores can beat BP players reliably:

Hyper offense man, roar and whirlwind have little to no place on teams like these.
U-turn and Volt switch are rather weak attacks that can be easily cushioned after a few boosts depending on the user, vaporeon will have no problem taking a v switch at +2 sp. def.

OTHER SETS THAT ARE NASTY AGAINST STANDARD BP (AND USEFUL OTHERWISE)
-Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X with Thunder Punch
-Life Orb Gengar with Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb
-Specially offensive Aegislash with Shadow Ball/Iron Head
-Stuff with Taunt that can hit Espeon hard (Gyarados and Terrakion are examples)
-Mixed Kyurem-B
-Choice Band Scizor
-Belly Drum Azumarill
-Tail Glow Manaphy
-Calm Mind Clefable
-Excadrill in the sand- it can outspeed and take out Sylveon even after several boosts
-Anything with Haze (Greninja is an excellent choice)

haze ninja smh what a sub par set
Gengar i'll admit is a great answer
Aegislash can be handled rather easily by charge zapdos
Kyu-b just dies to sylveon, and specially based kyu-b is the superior set.
BD azu hahahaahahaa I can tell you personally this is not a good answer in the slightest. Vap can take a +6 play rough with +2 defense and roar, scolipede iron defenses for days and discourages play rough. Basically, its a 50/50 of using play rough hoping vap comes in or waterfalling hoping scoli stays in, because if you predict wrong, they will set up a acid aromr/iron defense and you lose. 50/50s are not a great way to beat bp.
tail Glow manaphy is a threat i'll warrant that, but its a pretty subpar set otherwise. CM in the rain is better imo.
CM clefable hahahaha Sylveon just racks up a few cm's and vaporeon can easily roar. Otherwise, smeargle can spore.
Excadrill is just set up fodder for vap lol.

DEALING WITH SMEARGLE:
-Always have a predetermined Spore absorber, preferably a special attacker since BP chains have an easier time walling them
-Smeargle usually gets knocked to Sash if they try to come in early game, at which point they will either Spore or Ingrain (if they predict your switch out)
-Greedy/inexperienced BP users will try to Ingrain or Quiver Dance after they Spore- you can advantage of this by sending in something with a faster Taunt or a priority attack
-Mach Punch Breloom is the absolute best switchin to a weakened Smeargle, threatening to KO it no matter what move it makes

what decent special attacker actually absorbs spore and threatens baton pass from there? Espeon can just CM in the face of venu and threaten it out, that's the strongest one that's there basically.
Mach punch loom is a good answer tho i'll give you that.

BATON PASS MIRROR MATCHUPS:
-BP mirrors are a convoluted matchup that often comes down to whoever's Espeon dies first
-If you and your opponent are using BP chains, it's nigh impossible for a BP user without Heart Swap Smeargle to beat one that has the move
-Espeon has a significant advantage offensively against both Zapdos and Sylveon because Secret Power scales up enormously after multiple Calm Minds

-Substitute from Scolipede followed by a quick switch to Smeargle (to get down Ingrain) is generally the best opening in a BP mirror matchup, but if you predict the Smeargle switchin you should go to Sylveon instead to break Smeargle's sash with Hyper Voice
-After a speed boost + Ingrain you need to be boosting up Calm Minds as quickly as possible. Sylveon is bulkier/more threatening at first but eventually you will have to switch to Espeon
-If and when the opposing Espeon goes down, what you do next is entirely dependent on how much health you have left. If you have enough for a sub (you should, if you got Ingrain), it is possible to lock down an opponent's BP team and guarantee yourself a win. I'm assuming that both players are playing ideally (bad BP players will lose no matter what) and both players have Heart Swap Smeargle. How the lockdown works is like this:

-Attack with Espeon's Stored Power as Smeargle steals your boosts, bringing it to 1 HP. Use Substitute the turn after.
-If they stayed in with Smeargle as you used Substitute, attack with Stored Power to force it out
-If they switch to Sylveon, allow it to knock out your Espeon while you Calm Mind up. Bring in Smeargle, use Heart Swap, then either pass to Sylveon and sweep (if they stayed in) or use Spore (if they go to Smeargle as you Heart Swap), which also leads to a sweep.
-If they switch to Scolipede, Zapdos, or Vaporeon, immediately switch to Smeargle and Heart Swap back the boosts. If they attack with Zapdos or use any stat boosting moves/protect as Smeargle comes in, you can Baton Pass the stolen boosts to Sylveon and sweep with Hyper Voice. If they switch to Smeargle as you Heart Swap, Spore as usual and then proceed to sweep.
-If they use Substitute on any of the three above Pokemon as Smeargle comes in and then proceed to switch to their own Smeargle as you Heart Swap, you cannot Spore it back and will be forced into a stall war. However, you will always be 1 PP ahead because they used Heart Swap first and should have no difficulty shuffling around your opponent's team until they eventually are forced to concede a sweep.​

-If for whatever reason you cannot make a sub, things can get messy- your best bet is probably to switch to Scolipede and hope they don't Spore as you do so. Once this happens you get get up your own Substitute easily and aim to proceed as described above.

idk what all this shit is b/c i'm not a scrub who uses bp seriously :[
but yeah this all seems pretty accurate.

 

[Derpinator]

Ok let's dissect this shit and see how many of the things you list don't happen:


Nah not really. People just don't how to use the style properly. You have to scout everything like denis does, he constantly subs and shit. Basically, getting a sub up > boosts, contrary to popular belief (and thus why the populace often fails with it) is more important.



Lando/talon/Mega Pinsir can just lead vaporeon, Breloom doesn't even beat scolipede lol, Deo-s and thundurus can't really do much to sylveon as both are 2hko'd by hyper voice and fail to 2hko back.


What if they lead vaporeon? Then they acid armor/roar and win vs cb ttar too. if you predict the 50/50 wrong (because they can either lead vap or zap) then they already are put into a terrible position.

What if they switch in zap? With a decent chunk of sp. def investment Lando cannot break zapdos with roost.

Scoli should naturally outspeed atleast breloom, and then it can iron defense to the point where rock tomb does not break a sub. Thus, you're put into another 50/50 where if you predict wrong you're put into a terrible position and probably lose matches.


You mean psycho boost :I
Sylveon can also just scout with baton pass and go straight to vap anyway. Also, SD exca is pretty subpar imo.

By spamming baton pass you can more or less avoid this scenario, and you should be spamming baton pass more than anything to scout. This is how denissss plays.
vap won't switch in on a zard if it isn't revealed, it could be y.


If you have a phazing move on the team, then its pretty easy for smeargle or espeon to switch in. Roar and Whirlwind are quite out of context on an offensive team. Like you said:

Hyper offense man, roar and whirlwind have little to no place on teams like these.
U-turn and Volt switch are rather weak attacks that can be easily cushioned after a few boosts depending on the user, vaporeon will have no problem taking a v switch at +2 sp. def.


haze ninja smh what a sub par set
Gengar i'll admit is a great answer
Aegislash can be handled rather easily by charge zapdos
Kyu-b just dies to sylveon, and specially based kyu-b is the superior set.
BD azu hahahaahahaa I can tell you personally this is not a good answer in the slightest. Vap can take a +6 play rough with +2 defense and roar, scolipede iron defenses for days and discourages play rough. Basically, its a 50/50 of using play rough hoping vap comes in or waterfalling hoping scoli stays in, because if you predict wrong, they will set up a acid aromr/iron defense and you lose. 50/50s are not a great way to beat bp.
tail Glow manaphy is a threat i'll warrant that, but its a pretty subpar set otherwise. CM in the rain is better imo.
CM clefable hahahaha Sylveon just racks up a few cm's and vaporeon can easily roar. Otherwise, smeargle can spore.
Excadrill is just set up fodder for vap lol.



what decent special attacker actually absorbs spore and threatens baton pass from there? Espeon can just CM in the face of venu and threaten it out, that's the strongest one that's there basically.
Mach punch loom is a good answer tho i'll give you that.


idk what all this shit is b/c i'm not a scrub who uses bp seriously :[
but yeah this all seems pretty accurate.

Thank goodness that someone took care of this, I was just looking at that post and getting tired of just thinking about all the stupid points that would need to be addressed.

Anyway, as I've said before, that above list was literally just you saying that the BP user will see one Pokemon on your team and lead accordingly, ignoring everything else. Also, why has the idiocy of "look at the suspect ladder, BP isn't broken" returned? I could've sworn that that idiotic notion has been thoroughly addressed. Then again, I am assuming that people acknowledged counterarguments as opposed to simply reposting previous things without regard to anything said in response. As for your statistic, can you explain where this number came from? Regardless, you are assuming that people aren't using BP solely because, in your opinion, they cannot win. It doesn't take a genius to notice how narrow-minded and inaccurate this is.

 

[qpie]

Could any council member or anyone who's in the loop give a brief clarification why option 2 and 3 were chosen as the preferable methods to nerf full Baton Pass chains? Just because they were the most popular ones within the last discussion thread or were there any deeper reasons?

Even after my experience on the suspect ladder I feel that full Baton Pass chains should be nerfed, but I am now even more convinced that both option 2 and 3 might be overshooting the goal of nerfing it and end up eliminating its viability entirely.

 

[WebBowser]

So what you're saying is you don't want to nerf it because of a slippery slope?
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That's not stupid at all.

For the record, slippery slopes do in fact exist (both literally and metaphorically). The Slippery Slope Fallacy is invoked when someone assumes that the slippery slope exists and does not provide any reasoning to back up this belief. In fact, there is the less well known Inverse Slippery Slope Fallacy, which is invoked when people assume that slippery slopes cannot exist, because there happens to be a fallacy named after it.

Basically, if someone claims that there is a slippery slope and can back up that claim with solid reasoning, then there is no fallacy, you need to find a flaw in the reasoning to refute that person's claim.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Could any council member or anyone who's in the loop give a brief clarification why option 2 and 3 were chosen as the preferable methods to nerf full Baton Pass chains? Just because they were the most popular ones within the last discussion thread or were there any deeper reasons?

Even after my experience on the suspect ladder I feel that full Baton Pass chains should be nerfed, but I am now even more convinced that both option 2 and 3 might be overshooting the goal of nerfing it and end up eliminating its viability entirely.

Option 2 nerfs it to the point it's still usable, and a bit more manageable, where as option 3 prevents the two biggest players in the chain from being used in this instance. It nerfs it, but one more so than the other.

Everyone agreed that would be the best choice out of the possibilities (For the most part).

 

[Derpinator]

For the record, slippery slopes do in fact exist (both literally and metaphorically). The Slippery Slope Fallacy is invoked when someone assumes that the slippery slope exists and does not provide any reasoning to back up this belief. In fact, there is the less well known Inverse Slippery Slope Fallacy, which is invoked when people assume that slippery slopes cannot exist, because there happens to be a fallacy named after it.

Basically, if someone claims that there is a slippery slope and can back up that claim with solid reasoning, then there is no fallacy, you need to find a flaw in the reasoning to refute that person's claim.

So essentially the bolded part here....

I'm not sure you understand why this is a logical fallacy or what a logical fallacy is for that matter. The slippery slope argument is that, following one event, another event will inevitably happen for no reason other than the fact that the original event occurred. In other words, the following event will occur without any argument supporting that event. Seeing how there is evidently plenty of argument for this event, by claiming that this is purely the consequence of an earlier event, you refuse to address the actual arguments (go figure, called it I suppose) and would rather draw attention to irrelevant hypothetical statements that have no support other than the fact that an event previously happened and now this event is happening.

 

[Homeslice]

While I'm sure everyone who's voting has made their decision, if anyone is still willing to flip how they feel, I can honestly saw that after not touching the meta since the Luke ban I threw together a simple team for suspect not even knowing what it was for or thinking about countering BP and I found multiple ways to beat it. Roar isn't hard to fit on a team and neither is Taunt. Band/Specs stuff honestly works just the same at stopping early chains before they get their +4 boost to their defenses. BP honestly isn't that hard to deal with, and the fact that I had multiple ways to deal with it without even trying to counter it because I didn't even know it was a legitimate playstyle when I had no knowledge of the meta at the time should say enough. Anyone who has a basic grasp of teambuilding should be able to handle breaking full baton pass chains.

I think Vryheid does a very good job of summing up how incredibly easy it is to fit something that deals with BP chains on your team. Speaking of which,
Srn9130
Just two things I want to point out- saying a playstyle is op but is only op for one person because he's the only one that knows how to use it isn't a solid argument. If there's only a few people who know how to use it right and the large majority of people do it wrong no one is going to have an issue with the playstyle. One player being good doesn't completely break a playstyle just because he's good at that playstyle. As far as the rest of the post, I don't use anything else relevant besides Band TTar, and I've got to say a simple 252 / 252 / 4 Spread with Stone Edge / Crunch / Purusit / Superpower has been very effective at stopping BP teams, even Vaporeon at +2. Just seems to work in practice even if it's because of help from something else on my team.

 

[Derpinator]

While I'm sure everyone who's voting has made their decision, if anyone is still willing to flip how they feel, I can honestly saw that after not touching the meta since the Luke ban I threw together a simple team for suspect not even knowing what it was for or thinking about countering BP and I found multiple ways to beat it. Roar isn't hard to fit on a team and neither is Taunt. Band/Specs stuff honestly works just the same at stopping early chains before they get their +4 boost to their defenses. BP honestly isn't that hard to deal with, and the fact that I had multiple ways to deal with it without even trying to counter it because I didn't even know it was a legitimate playstyle when I had no knowledge of the meta at the time should say enough. Anyone who has a basic grasp of teambuilding should be able to handle breaking full baton pass chains.

I think Vryheid does a very good job of summing up how incredibly easy it is to fit something that deals with BP chains on your team. Speaking of which,
Srn9130
Just two things I want to point out- saying a playstyle is op but is only op for one person because he's the only one that knows how to use it isn't a solid argument. If there's only a few people who know how to use it right and the large majority of people do it wrong no one is going to have an issue with the playstyle. One player being good doesn't completely break a playstyle just because he's good at that playstyle. As far as the rest of the post, I don't use anything else relevant besides Band TTar, and I've got to say a simple 252 / 252 / 4 Spread with Stone Edge / Crunch / Purusit / Superpower has been very effective at stopping BP teams, even Vaporeon at +2. Just seems to work in practice even if it's because of help from something else on my team.

Honestly, why do we have to have an uninformed post almost every page? Hoping this gets deleted or something otherwise it is going to take us back to square 1 and we will be addressing all of the same stuff (again). How many times have phazers and "strong attackers" been addressed at this point? Also, unless I completely misread his post, Srn wasn't even remotely arguing that denis or any other single player is the reason BP is troublesome. Rather, he is assuming that the BP player isn't an idiot straight up, which is a fair assumption.

 

[Flamer]

Just two things I want to point out- saying a playstyle is op but is only op for one person because he's the only one that knows how to use it isn't a solid argument. If there's only a few people who know how to use it right and the large majority of people do it wrong no one is going to have an issue with the playstyle. One player being good doesn't completely break a playstyle just because he's good at that playstyle. As far as the rest of the post, I don't use anything else relevant besides Band TTar, and I've got to say a simple 252 / 252 / 4 Spread with Stone Edge / Crunch / Purusit / Superpower has been very effective at stopping BP teams, even Vaporeon at +2. Just seems to work in practice even if it's because of help from something else on my team.

So you're saying that because most of the people that use it are idiots, an overpowered playstyle shouldn't be nerfed. They must be pretty damn stupid if they can't use it well, its literally the easiest playstyle to use, the entire reason its being suspected is because it allows a mediocre player to beat a good one. I could hand a BP team and an instruction list to my 11 year old sister and she could easily win. Heck, I could even write a program to play with BP for me and it would probably win. I'm not even going to bother responding to the ways you claim we can "beat" BP.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Topsy turvy stops BP chains and could be used in other instances. We're done here guys. . .

The problem is not that it's invincible, it's that anywhere outside of stopping BP some of these counters could be doing better things or are simply taking up a slot that doesn't need to be taken up, thus, as some would consider, over centralizing the meta game.

 

[Vryheid]

I don't normally like doing long lists of quotes but I feel like some direct replies are warranted here:

answers to stuff

Nah not really. People just don't how to use the style properly. You have to scout everything like denis does, he constantly subs and shit. Basically, getting a sub up > boosts, contrary to popular belief (and thus why the populace often fails with it) is more important.

Subs are a matter of risk vs reward- do you sub up on something that might switch out, even if you risk losing health in the process? Do you Baton Pass out of Smeargle, predicting a Thundurus switchin, or try to get up Ingrain? Subs are not free, and when your team entirely lacks any sort of recovery move every last bit of HP matters. They are absolutely a skill intensive move and very much punishing if used improperly.

Lando/talon/Mega Pinsir can just lead vaporeon, Breloom doesn't even beat scolipede lol, Deo-s and thundurus can't really do much to sylveon as both are 2hko'd by hyper voice and fail to 2hko back.

Lando outspeeds and 2hkos standard Vaporeon with Earth Power. Breloom can Rock Tomb down subs over and over and threaten with Spore if it tries to set up. Both are very effective against everything else in the BP chain, which is useful in forcing the BP player into situations where they are vulnerable. Sylveon in particular is extremely easy to switch into early game and force out, simply because its slow and has no way of scouting with sub. The idea that they can't damage Sylveon isn't exactly true either- Sylveon really hates being hit by Thunder Wave and Taunt is a guaranteed way to force a hard switch.

What if they lead vaporeon? Then they acid armor/roar and win vs cb ttar too. if you predict the 50/50 wrong (because they can either lead vap or zap) then they already are put into a terrible position.

Banded Stone Edge has a good shot at 2HKOing Vaporeon, even factoring in the Acid Armor boost, due to Sand Stream preventing Leftovers recovery:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Vaporeon: 289-342 (62.2 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Even if it doesn't, Vaporeon will be so weakened that it will practically never have a chance to switch in again without a Sub already up. I've found that losing one of your main physical walls is almost always a worse bet than getting off a single boost, because that +2 defense is not going to be enough to stop your special defense boosters from getting wrecked by super effective moves.

What if they switch in zap? With a decent chunk of sp. def investment Lando cannot break zapdos with roost.

Zapdos with Roost is almost never used on Baton Pass teams. Losing Charge or Thunderbolt reduces it's utility to the point where other members of your team should have no difficulty overwhelming it. Zapdos with Charge cannot switch into Psychic and expect to tank multiple hits even after a sp def boost:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 166-196 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Besides, if you used SR turn one then having them switch into Zapdos is exactly what you want them to do. Also, if Ingrain goes down, Zap is easily wiped out by Earth Power.

Scoli should naturally outspeed atleast breloom, and then it can iron defense to the point where rock tomb does not break a sub. Thus, you're put into another 50/50 where if you predict wrong you're put into a terrible position and probably lose matches.

Even at +4, Life Orb Breloom is breaking this guy's subs, and an Adamant Focus Sash version also has a good shot:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. +4 240 HP / 80 Def Scolipede: 88-104 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. +4 240 HP / 80 Def Scolipede: 74-88 (23 - 27.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 4HKO

Nothing really wants to switch into a Rock Tomb (other than Vaporeon) even at +2 defense, leaving you with multiple opportunities to throw down Spore. The odds are heavily in your favor here. Also, you don't have to actually send Breloom out- simply the threat of Breloom on your team is enough to force them to lead with Scolipede. There are plenty of Pokemon that can take advantage of this, especially hard hitting special sweepers like Nasty Plot Thundurus/Manaphy.

You mean psycho boost :I
Sylveon can also just scout with baton pass and go straight to vap anyway. Also, SD exca is pretty subpar imo.

Yeah, that's what I mean t.t Anyways, Sylveon is annoyingly slow and gets outsped by common stuff even after several boosts. It is not hard to deal damage to it either with priority or hard hitting Choice Scarf users. Thunder Waving it early is another way to guarantee you have multiple attempts at trapping it late game.

By spamming baton pass you can more or less avoid this scenario, and you should be spamming baton pass more than anything to scout. This is how denissss plays.
vap won't switch in on a zard if it isn't revealed, it could be y.

Okay, so if the Baton Pass player predicts PERFECTLY every single time then yes, they will avoid the trap! Does that mean they always will? Absolutely not. There will be times when a BP player will try to Acid Armor and you catch them on the switch. Or, you can predict them switching out and hit whatever comes in hard with an attack. I think we established by now that no strategy against BP is perfect, it's YOUR job to predict what move they're going to make and check them accordingly.

Vaporeon trapping is still an extremely effective strategy and I find is bizarre that you're totally dismissing it as ineffective simply because a BP player totally outplaying the other player can work around it.

Hyper offense man, roar and whirlwind have little to no place on teams like these.
U-turn and Volt switch are rather weak attacks that can be easily cushioned after a few boosts depending on the user, vaporeon will have no problem taking a v switch at +2 sp. def.

You can't say they have no place on teams like these, some hyperoffense teams throw in a single defensive pivot like Hippowdon or Skarmory just to help with hazard support or make it easier to switch between attackers.
As for u-turn/volt switch, Scizor in particular threatens both Sylveon and Espeon and can use U-turn as they inevitably Baton Pass out. Wash Rotom can threaten non-Scolipede leads with Trick, using Volt Switch to force it out.

haze ninja smh what a sub par set
Gengar i'll admit is a great answer
Aegislash can be handled rather easily by charge zapdos
Kyu-b just dies to sylveon, and specially based kyu-b is the superior set.
BD azu hahahaahahaa I can tell you personally this is not a good answer in the slightest. Vap can take a +6 play rough with +2 defense and roar, scolipede iron defenses for days and discourages play rough. Basically, its a 50/50 of using play rough hoping vap comes in or waterfalling hoping scoli stays in, because if you predict wrong, they will set up a acid aromr/iron defense and you lose. 50/50s are not a great way to beat bp.
tail Glow manaphy is a threat i'll warrant that, but its a pretty subpar set otherwise. CM in the rain is better imo.
CM clefable hahahaha Sylveon just racks up a few cm's and vaporeon can easily roar. Otherwise, smeargle can spore.
Excadrill is just set up fodder for vap lol.

Breaking BP defensive cores is about forcing them into situations which are advantageous for you, as even the best checks will not work if placed against a Pokemon tailored to deal with it. So no, if you lead with Azumarill against Scolipede, you're probably not going to take anything down in the process. But if you force a switch into Espeon early game, predict this and go to Azumarill, then set up, something is going to take an enormous amount of damage. I think you underestimate how devastating doing something like 80% damage to Vaporeon can be, especially before they are able to get up Ingrain. +2 def simply isn't enough for the likes of Espeon and Sylveon to tank super effective physical attacks, of which there are plenty- and if Vaporeon never has another chance to come in it can be near impossible for them to get the boosts they need. A weakened Vaporeon, for instance, won't be able to "easily roar" Clefable anymore, allowing it to potentially beat the BP chain.
Excadrill in sand is fast enough to outspeed +4 speed Sylveon (so they can't BP out) and do an enormous amount of damage with Iron Head. Simply taking out Sylveon is usually enough to win you the match, especially if you have a Dark type pokemon on your team.
Zapdos can only Charge so many times against Aegislash. Life Orb Shadow Ball will deal over 60% damage on the switchin, and taking that kind of damage means it won't be able to stop threats like Talonflame or Mega Pinsir later in the match.

None of these checks exist in a vacuum. They can't be used as catch all solutions to BP- they're just very utilitarian sets that can be used in combination with other Pokemon to force BP chains into situations where they take more damage than the BP user can easily handle. Even if you cant outright take down a BP mon, just dealing enormous amounts of damage to 2-3 major threats can be enough to allow something to get picked off by priority when they're trying to build up enough Calm Mind boosts for an endgame sweep.

what decent special attacker actually absorbs spore and threatens baton pass from there? Espeon can just CM in the face of venu and threaten it out, that's the strongest one that's there basically.
Mach punch loom is a good answer tho i'll give you that.

What I mean by "absorber" is a target you're willing to have put to sleep, usually something like Tyranitar being a good choice (if you only need Sand up). My point was that it can be difficult to decide in the middle of a match whether or not you want your Landorus put to sleep or something else, so deciding this ahead of time leads to more consistent play.

also:

So you're saying that because most of the people that use it are idiots, an overpowered playstyle shouldn't be nerfed. They must be pretty damn stupid if they can't use it well, its literally the easiest playstyle to use, the entire reason its being suspected is because it allows a mediocre player to beat a good one. I could hand a BP team and an instruction list to my 11 year old sister and she could easily win. Heck, I could even write a program to play with BP for me and it would probably win. I'm not even going to bother responding to the ways you claim we can "beat" BP.

I don't know if you're just talking out of your ass or deliberately spreading misinformation, but I do know that if you actually tried out a BP team on the suspect ladder instead of just making shit up you would see how absolutely wrong you are. Any good player with a solid team, good prediction, and a modicrum of preparation can beat even the absolute best Baton Pass players with a high degree of success. The sheer amount of scouting and mindgames required to win with a BP team consistently is immense, and is less "mindless" than all the copy-paste Deo/sharp cores that everyone and their aunt seems to be using on the OU ladder these days.

I hope I don't sound too jaded about some of the responses in this thread, but I feel like the vast majority of the players completely missed the point of that big ol' recommendation in the OP:

""Remember to abuse full Baton Pass chains as much as you can, in order to have an informed opinion on the topic.""

It isn't "abuse Baton Pass chains only if that makes it easier to raise your COIL score" or even "use BP chains if you want them to stay unbanned", it's "use them so you can know what the fuck you are talking about". I do not care if whatever theorycrafting you came up with here says that Vaporeon + Scolipede can reliably lead against every single threat in the meta, in reality on the ladder things get more complicated and you see more variety in sets than you may be willing to give credit. Something like Haze Greninja may sound mediocre to you, but if you're a BP player and see the move every time one comes up, this is something that is worth paying attention to and at the very least take seriously. I also do not think it is merely enough simply to have battled these kinds of teams- using them against a variety of opponents can teach the nuances of what makes these kinds of teams tick and what their limitations are in a way simply reacting to someone else using them will not.

That being said, I have given my 160 match gauntlet of BP battles (and my previous matches using the chain) a fair amount more reflection. While I still strongly disagree with the assessment that there's anything "broken" about Baton Pass or that it's inherently a skill-less/prediction-less strategy, I do not believe my growing irritation with the team was simply due to team fatigue or repetition. A very different kind of realization was coming to me as I finished more and more difficult matchups- that the beginning turns influenced the rest of the match to an extreme degree.

To illustrate what I'm talking about, consider the following scenarios:

You're running a balanced offense team and you lead with Mega Venusaur. Your opponent sens in Pinsir, and expecting the Return, you try to switch in Thundurus. But lo and behold! Your opponent is running some gimmicky Pinsir set with Stone Edge! Your Thundurus gets wrecked on the switchin, but it's not the end of the world- you still can use checks like Talonflame or Scarf Landorus-T to easily revenge kill it or force it out. Yes, you're down a Pokemon, but you've effectively neutralized your opponent's momentum- you're on "even ground" in terms of sweeping capacity, as long as you make good predictions from that point forwards. You are put at a disadvantage, but it is possible to pull yourself back with a series of good plays.

Now consider a match where you lead with Choice Band Talonflame against Scolipede and predict a Zapdos switchin, and decide to use Flare Blitz. For whatever reason the Scolipede user decides to stay in and gets up an Iron Defense, allowing them to tank the hit and gather even more speed boosts. That one Iron Defense is the difference between Smeargle getting picked off by Bullet Punch or being able to pass off a Quiver Dance boost. That extra Quiver Dance means that their Zapdos can OHKO the Bisharp you try to send into it after a Charge. With the Bisharp gone, their Espeon can start setting up Calm Mind boosts easily, which in turn allows Vaporeon to sub up on special attacks and set up Acid Armor. All these defensive boosts means that their +6/+6 Sylveon can tank everything on your team and go for an end-game sweep.

All because you made one misplay the first turn which was ultimately the result of bad luck.

I am hesitant to use the term "luck" or "chance" here because predicting your opponent's moves is one of the key skills in Pokemon, and while the moves they make are inherently uncertain, they are most definitely not random. Pokemon is unique among many games in that it embraces various degrees of randomness, allowing players to take risky actions that have potentially higher rewards as long as they do not overly impact the opponent's ability to choose how much and what kind of risks they are willing to take. You can, for instance, bank on Ancientpower boosts on Togekiss to go for a sweep if you really wanted to- it would be a horribly unreliable strategy, but even if it did pay off, any decently prepared team should be able to check it- preventing "all in" strategies like this from having too much of a long term impact on how the game develops. You can use Chansey and Sableye as counters to Specs Keldeo if you like feel you have ungodly prediction skills, but this doesn't prevent the opponent from simply sending in another sweeper and continuing to bring down pressure. Players need to think beyond coin flips to consistently win matches- long term planning and evaluating which moves are the most efficient are also key elements of winning matches, and for many players that's what makes competitive Pokemon entertaining. That's why it's sometimes extremely frustrating to make use of a playstyle which is so heavily dependent on decision making which heavily depends on "coin flip" prediction scenarios early game and the blessing of the RNG.

The first 3 to 5 turns against- or as- a BP player, usually consisting of little more than educated guesswork, have more of an impact on the outcome of a match than any other playstyle I have ever seen. By that same token, one missed attack, meant to catch a BP user off guard, has more of an impact than any other playstyle I have ever seen. One crit against a BP chain before they can comfortably keep up subs has more of an impact than any other playstyle I have ever seen. Anyone who has ever used a BP chain thoroughly should be able to attest to this. Hell, I'll admit to winning matches against players who otherwise played extremely well simply because I happened to make the right predictions/got lucky during those first few turns:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-128414511
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-128235455

From my experience on the ladder, I do not think that Baton Pass is in any way overpowered. I feel like I used it to a decent amount of proficiency and managed to defeat- and lose to- teams of top OU threats by skilled players to a fairly even degree. I would go as far as to say that a top tier offensive OU core, played well, has a significant advantage against BP chains- without excellent prediction and constant scouting, BP walls simply can't keep up with the continual offensive onslaught. What is heavily problematic, however, is the extent Baton Pass forces opponents to depend heavily both on luck and "gut instinct" early game to win matches, whether they want to or not. There is NO WAY to play "completely safe" during those initial stages against a Baton Pass user, even with gimmick sets. These early game turns are so frustrating and difficult to control both for the Baton Pass user and the opponent that "uncompetitive" is about the only word which adequately describes them. Is this justification for a nerf? Perhaps, but not for the reasons being listed throughout this thread.

 

[HBK]

Whether or not BP is truly broken is a debate that can rage on for hours. In my opinion, broken or not, it is unhealthy for the metagame as it forces you to constantly run so called anti-BP pokemon like Thundurus/Pinsir/Talonflame,etc. to counter them. Using such anti-BP pokemon (viable as they may be) on every team in tournaments or on the ladder on the chance that your opponent might be using a dedicated BP team may cost you victory against a standard/unorthodox non-BP team. Conversely, you have perfectly usable and well built teams that prove to be useless against BP. It forces you to build hyper offensive teams or risk being vulnerable to it. Banning it would give players greater freedom whilst building teams.

And maybe it's just me, but BP is absolutely boring. It defeats the purpose of this game. I don't see any other reason to use it apart from getting easy wins. Again, not to say that it's broken but, to lazy noobs, it will definitely seem relatively easier to build teams and win with than non BP teams that require one to engage in more mind games, make more predictions i.e. take a lot more work.

 

[Legitimate Username]

Well, I just made reqs, and I've pretty much made a 180 and decided that I'm going to vote for option 2. Laddering took me forever and by now pretty much everything I could want to say has already been said, so I'm just going to blindly toss some words onto here and hope they form some sort of coherence.

Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive.

This can be luck-based, but doesn't have to be (see: 4th gen Wobb, who was effective enough then to remove the ability to "do anything about it" largely from the enemy player, and was banned for uncompetitive-ness); but most uncompetitive strategies that are banned usually have a high appeal to luck.

While there is always luck involved in Pokemon, the problem is the degree to which control is taken away from the player. Removal of autonomy is the key to an uncompetitive tiering decision or clause.


Note: the word "degree" as there are many game aspects that remove autonomy, but the problem is degree of removal (Moody / Double Team remove more autonomy than Quick Claw or fast U-Turn/Volt Switch).

Whether the "degree" of autonomy removal is uncompetitive is debatable, and is subjective (based off of player experience).

Note: Individual Pokemon can be banned for a combination of "overpowered" and "uncompetitive" characteristics-- see 4th Gen Deoxys-S and 4th Gen Shaymin-S bans

The thing about Baton Pass is while it isn't necessarily "overpowered", it's a wild card among team structures, and a rather powerful one at that. As we all know, whether or not one can put up a fight against a well-played Baton Pass team depends entirely on whether or not their team contains any of the specific counters to it. While this can be said for just about every relevant metagame threat, it's still possible to pull out a win through skill and good counterplay. Against Baton Pass, the stone that your fate is set in is MUCH more solid, and there is little that can be done against a competent opponent. The player loses control a lot of control over whether or not they can win at a team disadvantage through battling skill.

To speak of my own laddering experience: I ran a team with two Taunt users, those being Thundurus and Mega Gyarados. Games against Baton Pass seemed to be solely determined by how intelligent my opponent was. If they were smart enough to not get greedy when boosting with Scolipede or Smeargle and knew when to switch in Sylveon and start spamming Hyper Voice, then they'd win without much trouble. If they weren't that capable, then they were pretty much screwed. So basically, even when running notable checks to the strategy, pulling a victory required either absolutely flawless prediction or an incapable opponent. To be fair, I actually love Taunt on Mega Gyarados, because I seriously value being able to stop users of Toxic, Whirlwind, Leech Seed, and et cetera from ending a sweep, but I found games to go by much more easily when I finally gave in and gave Thundurus Superpower again.

There was a post earlier about how Pokémon is a game of risk management, and how players can choose to value the risks of not preparing for Baton Pass versus the risks of overpreparing and losing to more "standard" teams. While this is true, I can't say that I think it's healthy for the metagame. Because Baton Pass chains are not a single Pokémon, but rather, an entire team, this forces teams into an entire rock/paper/scissors dynamic (counters beat BP, BP beats standard, standard beats counters) that leaves even less control over the game to the player. A single overpowered Pokémon cannot force the game into a rock/paper/scissors like that, as teams can be built around that single Pokémon and its counters simultaneously. But Baton Pass, as an entire teamstyle, leaves no room for such incorporation.

While it's true that one should consider that risk management needs to be taken into account on the ladder and that you need to sacrifice the ability to handle some threats in order to take on others more easily. But in tournament play, this seems like much more of a bad thing, as a single loss carries much more weight. If one player runs Baton Pass counters and has a hard time against another one who doesn't, then this is just more and more control over the game's outcome that is being lost.

Baton Pass isn't unique in this regard. This can technically apply to every single metagame threat. However, Baton Pass is unique in that it pushes this power in team-matchup to the logical extreme, removing the potential for counterplay and forcing players to take far greater risks when determining what threats they want to prepare for in their teams. It's certainly debatable as to whether or not Baton Pass crosses the line in this regard and thus deserves a nerf, but from my experience on the ladder, I'm inclined to believe that it does.

Also, if you're sincerely considering to vote for Option 3, then there's probably something wrong with you. Peace out.

 

[WebBowser]

Also, if you're sincerely considering to vote for Option 3, then there's probably something wrong with you. Peace out.

As one of the more vocal advocates of option 3, could you care to elaborate on why you believe this? I personally support option 3 because I believe that Iron Defense Scolipede to be a broken threat, and throughout the thread I have written at length on why I believe this. So far, no one has attempted to contradict my analysis, which says to me that scolipede indeed has the strengths that I claim it does. Multiple posters, however, have said that these strengths do not make scolipede broken, simply viable, which is why they support option 2. I have pointed to the strengths that I believe push scolipede over the edge, namely the reliability that he can support his team and the unique support that he provides would-be sweepers, namely the nigh invulnerability to priority part VIA iron defense. Speed boost has two functions. First, it ensures that scolipede can outspeed most threats without needing to invest in speed, giving him a deceptive amount of bulk because his defense essentially doubles before he gets hit. Two, it allows the receiver to outspeed pretty much the entire metagame, meaning that priority is the only option to revenge kill, which won't work courtesy of iron defense. It only takes one iron defense to make any decently bulky mon basically ignore all forms of priority.

That is a basic summery of my views, I have supported this view with multiple calcs and replays to illustrate this.