np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[termi]

I love how people are whining because stall is viable. For one, it already was viable, the fact that one special wall is added to the meta does not shift it towards stall (especially considering how all other mons that have dropped are offensive beasts). Secondly, one replay does not tell you anything about the meta (mind how one particular spl match lasted for over 400 turns, and yet ou is not extremely stall-oriented). Basically, stop whining and play the meta before you start judging.

 

[Ununhexium]

I have been using a team using Volcarona / Nidoking / Amoonguss / Rhyperior / Rotom-H / Starmie. I might replace Starmie with Alomomola because I think this would do very well as stall. Volcarona definitely pulls weight but it isn't critical to the team.

Maybe I just haven't fought enough Volcarona, but I am finding it very powerful, but not broken. Rhyperior (seriously Rhyperior is excellent in this meta) can handle many variants very well, including some with Giga Drain.

 

[jjoshcja]

Since saying "Well its semi stall vs full stall so of course its an awful game" is apparently a remove worthy opinion of the replay lets spell this out.

Both sides were playing some variant of stall with Limitless running scarf infernape and band heracross as Blissey checks while FLCL brought nearly full stall feat MAero and relied on grinding out wins vs Blissey with T spikes and PP stall or simply stallbreaking it with sableye or MAero. While Limitless could kill blissy outright his "choice" of move locked fighting's with no wish support made that somewhat irrelevant as the combination of a safe switchin from a physically bulky water in Spdef alomamola and residual damage gave them a short lifespan without the forementiond wish support. On the other hand FLCL could safely PP stall mew for defogs and bliss for aromatherapies with little to no need for prediction.

In terms of the way the game played out. Limitless was prediction central making double switches and useful overpredictions while preserving his main threats in Bandcross and CM bro, until CM bro became a modern day god by abusing a single layer of T spikes. FLCL on he other hand made nice safe plays as he knew he had the match advantage until the CMbrogod came down, at which point FLCL managed to get out of the mess by feeding sableye to the unstopable beast allowing Limitless's bandcross to potentially 2 hit KO FLCL's entire team with CC and megahorn thanks to a weakend nidoqueen and fortress. However with CM bro on little to no slack off PP and residual damage racking up quickly FLCL was able to pull out the win.

TL:DR version: BLissy is probably overcentralizing and borken, but this replay just shows why you don't run choiced mons on balanced/semi stall unless your planning on trap killing their "Safe" switchins rather than blissy borken wow as both teams are strongly reminiscent of Florges stall teams pre drop.

The obvious question: "So what would show OMG bliss OP?". Either multiple replays of blissy teams forcing their way through well supported checks that can abuse the free turns that bliss gives running for its fat pink life. Or an obviously overcentralizing useage % (First one I have no idea how it would get but the second is damn well guaranteed)

TL:DR:DR...Before I continue... props to limitless for making it a semi interesting game to watch with massive plays midgame. Sadly "Well its semi stall vs full stall so of course its an awful game", almost all of the above pretty much comes under this phrase, stall fights are almost always purely matchup based, the team with an advantage simply grinds out the win unless the other player makes perfect prediction over 150+ turns. Its painful to play and painful to watch. More so for the losing team as the helpless feeling pretty much rips the fun out of pokemon for the good half hour the game takes.

TL:DR:DR:DR: Its a good showcase of why nobody likes playing gen 2 ever. Not so much bliss borken wow.

 

[Jaguar360]

I just found an excellent check to Volcarona: Mega Ampharos. It resists its Fire moves + Giga Drain, Hurricane and Hidden Power Rock and has enough bulk to survive a Bug Buzz at +2 (+2 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and paralyze it with Thunder Wave. It can then Volt Switch out to something more appropriate to handle it or that can be sacked. Here is a replay of it in action, preparing Honchcrow for a nice sweep: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-128696467

 

[666lumberjack]

I just found an excellent check to Volcarona: Mega Ampharos. It resists its Fire moves + Giga Drain, Hurricane and Hidden Power Rock and has enough bulk to survive a Bug Buzz at +2 (+2 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and paralyze it with Thunder Wave. It can then Volt Switch out to something more appropriate to handle it or that can be sacked. Here is a replay of it in action, preparing Honchcrow for a nice sweep: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-128544710

This replay includes neither Volcorona nor Ampharos-M.

 

[Jaguar360]

This replay includes neither Volcorona nor Ampharos-M.

Must have uploaded the wrong one. Hold on.
EDIT: It is right now. I had the correct link but it kept going to a different battle for some reason.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I'd rather run power gem instead in order to 2hko it already (assuming it quiver dances on the switch, otherwise its an ohko).

 

[Godsend]

Or use Mega Aero that can take any of Volc's moves and 1HKO back. It also outspeeds any Bulky Volc at +1.

 

[Darkai34]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-101902392 best battle I ever had, kecleon can put weight it seems

 

[greengrappler]

My opinions on each of the new people to the tier.
Alakazam
Can you say...broken? He out speeds just about the entire tier (After mega evolving he out speeds everyone), can trace speed boost or sheer force, and can bypass sucker punch with disable. At least my Aggron can easily beat him with t wave and heavy slam. Or my reuni can wall him forever.
Blissey
Oh boy! More setup fodder for my Reuni! A pity Missy isn't good enough for UU, otherwise it could set up all over it.
Goodra
With gooey it could give a teammate a good chance at out speeding whoever KO'es it, because who would use a special move on it (Besides psyshock)
Infernape
Once again, Reuni gets more people to toy with. My bro will also be happy about this.
Volcarona
Brokeness is too much for words.

Conclussion:
I hope Alakazam and Volcorona get banned.

Is anyone else sensing an increase in usage of Rhyperior? Because he destroys Alakazam and Volcarona with rock blast, laughs at Blissey as it hammer arms it, and the rest are nuked by e-quake. (EDIT: Ice punch means Goodra will need a trip to surgery.)

(PS, my spellcheck is messing with me.)

 

[Darkai34]

My opinions on each of the new people to the tier.
Alakazam
Can you say...broken? He out speeds just about the entire tier (After mega evolving he out speeds everyone), can trace speed boost or sheer force, and can bypass sucker punch with disable. At least my Aggron can easily beat him with t wave and heavy slam. Or my reuni can wall him forever.
Blissey
Oh boy! More setup fodder for my Reuni! A pity Missy isn't good enough for UU, otherwise it could set up all over it.
Goodra
With gooey it could give a teammate a good chance at out speeding whoever KO'es it, because who would use a special move on it (Besides psyshock)
Infernape
Once again, Reuni gets more people to toy with. My bro will also be happy about this.
Volcarona
Brokeness is too much for words.

Conclussion:
I hope Alakazam and Volcorona get banned.

Is anyone else sensing an increase in usage of Rhyperior? Because he destroys Alakazam and Volcarona with rock blast, laughs at Blissey as it hammer arms it, and the rest are nuked by e-quake.

(PS, my spellcheck is messing with me.)

Seriously? Most Alakazams carry shadowball, it should have done enough.

 

[greengrappler]

Seriously? Most Alakazams carry shadowball, it should have done enough.

Done enough to what?

 

[Darkai34]

Done enough to what?

2HKO it the least

 

[Minus]

Done enough to what?

He's talking about Alakazam being able to 2HKO your Reunicleus.

 

[Kingpoleon]

My opinions on each of the new people to the tier.
Alakazam
Can you say...broken? He out speeds just about the entire tier (After mega evolving he out speeds everyone), can trace speed boost or sheer force, and can bypass sucker punch with disable. At least my Aggron can easily beat him with t wave and heavy slam. Or my reuni can wall him forever.
Really? AV Umbreon loves eating everything, and can take a Focus Miss okay.
Blissey
Oh boy! More setup fodder for my Reuni! A pity Missy isn't good enough for UU, otherwise it could set up all over it.
...
Goodra
With gooey it could give a teammate a good chance at out speeding whoever KO'es it, because who would use a special move on it (Besides psyshock)
Definitely not broken though.
Infernape
Once again, Reuni gets more people to toy with. My bro will also be happy about this.
The Slow twins and Chandy don't mind this either. Oh and Jelli
Volcarona
Brokeness is too much for words.
Moltres is really good anti-meta, and without HP Rock it beats Volc. There's a huge list of stuff if Volc runs HP Rock and no Giga Drain.
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Protect/Cursed Body/Toxic/Recover/Scald is a good combo I've discovered.


Conclussion:
I hope Alakazam and Volcorona get banned.
Volc I partially agree on. Alakazam is just really fragile, but I can see it getting banned.

Is anyone else sensing an increase in usage of Rhyperior? Because he destroys Alakazam and Volcarona with rock blast, laughs at Blissey as it hammer arms it, and the rest are nuked by e-quake. (EDIT: Ice punch means Goodra will need a trip to surgery.)

(PS, my spellcheck is messing with me.)

Replies in bold.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

AV Umbreon? As in Assault Vest? Am I reading this right?

 

[Kingpoleon]

AV Umbreon? As in Assault Vest? Am I reading this right?

252+ SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Assault Vest Umbreon: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Admittedly, that is a nooby item and spread. But I like how you make a minor nitpick and pretend that it makes my entire post invalid.

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

My opinions on each of the new people to the tier.
Alakazam
Can you say...broken? He out speeds just about the entire tier (After mega evolving he out speeds everyone), can trace speed boost or sheer force, and can bypass sucker punch with disable. At least my Aggron can easily beat him with t wave and heavy slam. Or my reuni can wall him forever.
Blissey
Oh boy! More setup fodder for my Reuni! A pity Missy isn't good enough for UU, otherwise it could set up all over it.
Goodra
With gooey it could give a teammate a good chance at out speeding whoever KO'es it, because who would use a special move on it (Besides psyshock)
Infernape
Once again, Reuni gets more people to toy with. My bro will also be happy about this.
Volcarona
Brokeness is too much for words.

Conclussion:
I hope Alakazam and Volcorona get banned.

Is anyone else sensing an increase in usage of Rhyperior? Because he destroys Alakazam and Volcarona with rock blast, laughs at Blissey as it hammer arms it, and the rest are nuked by e-quake. (EDIT: Ice punch means Goodra will need a trip to surgery.)

(PS, my spellcheck is messing with me.)

252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Reuniclus: 192-228 (45.2 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So I went and gave Reuniclus as much SpDef as I could without also throwing on an AV and ran the calc, not too impressed at his ability to wall Mega-Zam.

If Mega-Zam is running Modest(Like he should) he's knocking out a ton of Reuni's HP with Shadow Ball even with max SpDef investment if you try and switch Reuni in on Mega-Zam, I don't really see this as "walling him forever" when he's so close to a 2HKO. Mega-zam should be running Modest instead of Timid because he still outspeeds the entire relevant tier bar Jolly Mega-Aero when Modest, and even then Mega-Aero should be Adamant instead of Jolly.

 

[Minus]

252+ SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Assault Vest Umbreon: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Admittedly, that is a nooby item and spread. But I like how you make a minor nitpick and pretend that it makes my entire post invalid.

It's not a minor nitpick. Assault Vest is a horrible item to run in Umbreon; you lose out on all if the utility that regular Umbreon provides for a little addition to your bulk. Go run Goodra or something instead if you want a bulky attacker, but Assault Vest Umbreon is hopelessly outclassed.

 

[Kingpoleon]

It's not a minor nitpick. Assault Vest is a horrible item to run in Umbreon; you lose out on all if the utility that regular Umbreon for a little addition to your bulk. Go run Goodra or something instead if you want a bulky attacker, but Assault Vest Umbreon is hopelessly outclassed.

I know. Just typing what I was thinking, and I forgot to go back and go over it.. But it is a small portion of my post, and he completely ignored the rest of my argument like it had been eclipsed. But even without AV:
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

252+ SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Assault Vest Umbreon: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Admittedly, that is a nooby item and spread. But I like how you make a minor nitpick and pretend that it makes my entire post invalid.

The point is that you shouldn't present a set as a counter to something when it's unviable. You've taken Umbreon, a pokemon meant to support the rest of the team, and turned it into a liability. Slapping an AV on something doesn't automatically make it better, Umbreon now can't use the support movepool that makes it relevant, and can only impact the game with either his base 65 attack stat or base 60 special attack.

There was no point bringing up AV Umbreon, just don't do it.

EDIT: Minus ninja'd me, but whatever.

 

[Kingpoleon]

The point is that you shouldn't present a set as a counter to something when it's unviable. You've taken Umbreon, a pokemon meant to support the rest of the team, and turned it into a liability. Slapping an AV on something doesn't automatically make it better, Umbreon now can't use the support movepool that makes it relevant, and can only impact the game with either his base 65 attack stat or base 60 special attack.

There was no point bringing up AV Umbreon, just don't do it.

I know and I explained why I in the post you quoted, but obviously didn't read.

 

[Ununhexium]

Okay we can all agree AV is bad. Now can we stop the circlejerking and discuss something else.

but for the record, 4 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 200-236 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I didn't want to nitpick :< I just think that "AV Umbreon can counter it" isn't a good reason to think that Alakazam is not just a teensy bit broken, or its Mega form at the very least.

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

I know and I explained why I in the post you quoted, but obviously didn't read.

I read it fine, and I said that if something is unviable then you shouldn't be mentioning it in the first place.