Pokémon Greninja

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Never use Modest Greninja. Ever. Period.

Choice specs Greninja is bad because you already have power with STAB and high base-power moves. You're basically taking away your wonderful coverage and locking it into one move, which in kind of pointless...

Those calculations above are kind of meaningless because Greninja already gets most of those OHKOs and 2HKOs with Life Orb...
If you don't believe me, I can show you with my own calculations. In conclusion, stick to Special LO Greninja, please and thank you.

My effort to get a new discussion going: Substitute+3 Attacks Greninja

Greninja forces so many switches, so a Substitute set can let it predict less against stuff like Conkeldurr, and be less easily revenged by stuff like Talonflame, Breloom, and Scizor. It does have its downfalls, such as Losing it's health very quickly. So, a set would look something like this:

Greninja@Life Orb/Expert Belt

-Substitute
-Extrasensory
-Ice Beam
-Hydro Pump

Just a new idea to get the discussion going and talk about something other than Physical Greninja (which we were bashing back in December lol).

Why I shouldn't use modest? Aside from being slower than a Timid Keldeo, what are the downsides to running Modest over Timid?

Calcs for Specs versus Life Orb against 4SpD Venusaur with and without Stealth Rock.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 244-291 (67 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 244-291 (67 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Against CB/BD Azumaril

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 300-354 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 300-354 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Against AV Azumaril

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 174-211 (43 - 52.2%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Against Aegislash

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 140-165 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With Stealth Rock, Specs give Greninja a chance to 1hko Venusaur and CB/BD Azumaril, something Life Orb Greninja cannot do.

Greninja with Life Orb is no doubt very good and hits hard while able to switch attacks, but it doesn't last long thanks to the Life Orb damage. Specs Greninja doesn't mind being locked into Hydro Bump and it hits like a truck.
 
Why I shouldn't use modest? Aside from being slower than a Timid Keldeo, what are the downsides to running Modest over Timid?

Calcs for Specs versus Life Orb against 4SpD Venusaur with and without Stealth Rock.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 244-291 (67 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 244-291 (67 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Against CB/BD Azumaril

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 300-354 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 300-354 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Against AV Azumaril

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 174-211 (43 - 52.2%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Against Aegislash

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 140-165 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With Stealth Rock, Specs give Greninja a chance to 1hko Venusaur and CB/BD Azumaril, something Life Orb Greninja cannot do.

Greninja with Life Orb is no doubt very good and hits hard while able to switch attacks, but it doesn't last long thanks to the Life Orb damage. Specs Greninja doesn't mind being locked into Hydro Bump and it hits like a truck.
Modest isn't worth it because one of Greninja's main selling points is its speed. It's getting outsped by so many things with a modest nature lol. You could've KOed a Latios with Dark Pulse, but now you're taking a Draco Meteor to the face. You could've outsped a Terrakion and KOed with Hydro Pump, but now you're taking a Close Combat to the face. You could've KOed a Keldeo with Extrasensory, but now you're taking a Secret Sword to the face. You could've outsped a Gengar and KOed with Extrasensory, but now you're taking a Focus Blast to the face. Get my point? Timid/Hasty/Naive Greninja BEST GRENINJA.

As for your calculations, they do little to prove your point. I don't see how turning a 2HKO (with the ability to change moves!!!) into a small chance to OHKO AFTER Rocks is worth it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 97-115 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- 83.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 125-147 (38.5 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Lol)
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 57-67 (17.5 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 91-108 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Believe me, Greninja does not like being locked into one move. Especially when it can be 2HKOing those threats with some other viable coverage move. If you really want a Specs user, use Keldeo.
 
Modest isn't worth it because one of Greninja's main selling points is its speed. It's getting outsped by so many things with a modest nature lol. You could've KOed a Latios with Dark Pulse, but now you're taking a Draco Meteor to the face. You could've outsped a Terrakion and KOed with Hydro Pump, but now you're taking a Close Combat to the face. You could've KOed a Keldeo with Extrasensory, but now you're taking a Secret Sword to the face. You could've outsped a Gengar and KOed with Extrasensory, but now you're taking a Focus Blast to the face. Get my point? Timid/Hasty/Naive Greninja BEST GRENINJA.

As for your calculations, they do little to prove your point. I don't see how turning a 2HKO (with the ability to change moves!!!) into a small chance to OHKO AFTER Rocks is worth it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 97-115 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- 83.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 125-147 (38.5 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Lol)
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 57-67 (17.5 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 91-108 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Believe me, Greninja does not like being locked into one move. Especially when it can be 2HKOing those threats with some other viable coverage move. If you really want a Specs user, use Keldeo.
I switched all my Greninja's into timid. Fucking Keldeo and his fucking Secret Sword.

Other than Dragon, Grass and Water Pokemons (And Blissey) no body would enjoy a Specs Hydro Bump. While Greninja loses the ability to switch moves, it gets more power and lasts a bit longer without the Orb's recoil.
Life Orb Greninja eases prediction and can switch attacks, but Specs Greninja is not bad at all and turns some 2hkos into 1hkos.
 
Now I am a huge newb so I am probably wrong here but does not Greninja have pretty low Sp.Atk stat for a sweeper? But it has like base speed 120 or something(I believe)so would not Modest be better than Timid to invest in its power?
 
Now I am a huge newb so I am probably wrong here but does not Greninja have pretty low Sp.Atk stat for a sweeper? But it has like base speed 120 or something(I believe)so would not Modest be better than Timid to invest in its power?
Greninja's ability allows him to become the type of the attack it uses, giving it STAB among other benefits, which will increase the power of all its moves, and a Life Orb does a pretty good job at letting it hard as well. Plus, speed is probably the most important stat in the game, and Greninja wants to outspeed as many things as possible.

Just my 2 cents, though.
 
Greninja's ability allows him to become the type of the attack it uses, giving it STAB among other benefits, which will increase the power of all its moves, and a Life Orb does a pretty good job at letting it hard as well. Plus, speed is probably the most important stat in the game, and Greninja wants to outspeed as many things as possible.

Just my 2 cents, though.
I see your point but what can outspeed a Modest Greninja with 252 Speed EVs? As far as I know it is scarfers or megas only, out of the things in OU. Oh, and a Timid Keldeo as someone said. But Keldeo is not a pokemon you can breed until you have the right nature, you pretty much have to stick with what you have as it is from events.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Now I am a huge newb so I am probably wrong here but does not Greninja have pretty low Sp.Atk stat for a sweeper? But it has like base speed 120 or something(I believe)so would not Modest be better than Timid to invest in its power?
Greninja is not a sweeper; it's a late game cleaner that doubles as a stallfucker since it murders the VenuTran defensive core.
 
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I see your point but what can outspeed a Modest Greninja with 252 Speed EVs? As far as I know it is scarfers or megas only, out of the things in OU. Oh, and a Timid Keldeo as someone said. But Keldeo is not a pokemon you can breed until you have the right nature, you pretty much have to stick with what you have as it is from events.
Latios, Terrakion, Infernape, Latias, Starmie, Alakazam, Tornadus (both forms), Thundurus-I, Hawlucha, and some lesser-used mons and Pokemon I'm forgetting. Definitely a group you'd want to outspeed.
 
I see your point but what can outspeed a Modest Greninja with 252 Speed EVs? As far as I know it is scarfers or megas only, out of the things in OU. Oh, and a Timid Keldeo as someone said. But Keldeo is not a pokemon you can breed until you have the right nature, you pretty much have to stick with what you have as it is from events.
Lots of things outspeed Greninja with a modest nature. As for the power Greninja gets STAB with Protean to all of its attacks, and a Life Orb boost, which makes it a very strong Pokemon. It also has very high Base Power moves that are super effective against many Pokemon in OU, such as Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Extrasensory. Speed is such an important stat that most things 100+ base will run a nature that raises speed. Modest Greninja is bad because it's getting outsped by Max speed Pokemon like Lati@s, Gengar, and Keldeo. If it's running modest, those Pokemon will take it down easily. However, it can outspeed and beat those Pokemon if it's faster, and it is faster with a Timid nature and max speed. So yeah, that's basically why you should always run Timid/Hasty/Naive on Greninja :)

I switched all my Greninja's into timid. Fucking Keldeo and his fucking Secret Sword.

Other than Dragon, Grass and Water Pokemons (And Blissey) no body would enjoy a Specs Hydro Bump. While Greninja loses the ability to switch moves, it gets more power and lasts a bit longer without the Orb's recoil.
Life Orb Greninja eases prediction and can switch attacks, but Specs Greninja is not bad at all and turns some 2hkos into 1hkos.
Eh...no one uses decent uses Blissey in OU anymore but that's not the point. It's not about the power of Specs Hydro Pump. It's about the fact that when you have the Special Attack of Greninja, you need strong SE moves, not Specs. Keldeo is a much better Specs user because it has a monstrous special attack and not the huge movepool that Greninja has.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 276-325 (92 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 393-463 (131 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 205-244 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Being locked into one move for Greninja really isn't as good as being able to use its other moves, and that's my main point. I'm not saying specs isn't viable, but it's not that great, especially when compared to Life Orb.
 
Just a quick question here, if you're running HP Fire on Greninja, would it be viable to run Modest? The one drop in Speed IV means it's no longer speed tying other Timid Greninjas with max investment, so would the speed drop from Timid/Hasty to Modest lose it any important speed match ups? Just curious, as I want to breed my own HP Fire Modest one, but I didn't want to shooting myself in the foot for it.
 
Just a quick question here, if you're running HP Fire on Greninja, would it be viable to run Modest? The one drop in Speed IV means it's no longer speed tying other Timid Greninjas with max investment, so would the speed drop from Timid/Hasty to Modest lose it any important speed match ups? Just curious, as I want to breed my own HP Fire Modest one, but I didn't want to shooting myself in the foot for it.
Probly would still want Timid, since otherwise you're slower than the Latis, the Musketeers, Raikou, and other stuff. It's a pretty important speed tier imo
 
Just a quick question here, if you're running HP Fire on Greninja, would it be viable to run Modest? The one drop in Speed IV means it's no longer speed tying other Timid Greninjas with max investment, so would the speed drop from Timid/Hasty to Modest lose it any important speed match ups? Just curious, as I want to breed my own HP Fire Modest one, but I didn't want to shooting myself in the foot for it.
Might as well let it wear a Specs if you want it to be stronger.
Greninja tend to be Timid so you should do;

Timid 252 Sp.Atk/Speed #Choicespecs

if you want it to hit harder and NOT lose the speed
but what's wrong with Life Orb?
 

ChildFucker

literally too stupid to choose a username.
Might as well let it wear a Specs if you want it to be stronger.
Greninja tend to be Timid so you should do;

Timid 252 Sp.Atk/Speed #Choicespecs

if you want it to hit harder and NOT lose the speed
but what's wrong with Life Orb?
Specs Greninja is the worst thing ever. You're abandoning the ability to utterly trash most of the game with Protean to get STAB EVERYTHING on the fly for a slightly stronger attack? So when Venuaur switches in on your specs Hydro Pump and you can't Extrasensory it do you cry?
 
Specs Greninja is the worst thing ever. You're abandoning the ability to utterly trash most of the game with Protean to get STAB EVERYTHING on the fly for a slightly stronger attack? So when Venuaur switches in on your specs Hydro Pump and you can't Extrasensory it do you cry?
stop bashing me because you think it's my idea
fat n. jolly's the one who wanted to use Modest Greninja and i gave him a different option but asked what's wrong with life orb

oh, and specs greninja isn't too bad

your opponent will switch out once they feel that you're gonna use a SE move anyway so greninja's only going to be staying in for one or two turns at most
 
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The point is Specs doesn't capitalize on Greninja's strong suits and is severely overshadowed and outclassed by Keldeo as a Specs user, who has the brute force to wallbreak with it and has few coverage options. Greninja doesn't have that kind of power, and neither using a Modest nature over Timid or Specs over Life Orb or BOTH change any notable 2HKOs to OHKOs and hinder Greninja's ability to do what it does best. Revenge kill, end game sweep, and threaten out slower pokemon with his great offensive coverage. Greninja isn't a sledgehammer like Keldeo, he's a swiss army knife. He doesn't brute force his way through opponents, you select the right tool for the job.
 
Greninja @ Focus Sash
Adamant 4 HP 252 Atk 252 Speed Torrent
Waterfall
Water Shuriken
Acrobatics
Night Slash

Am I a horrible person now? If you want a creative way to kill Talonflame, here ya go. Greninja can take the brave bird with the sash and OHKO with Waterfall. If the sash was already used, you can use eater Shuriken, which should hit before brave bird because nobody uses Jolly Talonflame. ...Don't expect this to kill much other than Talonflame.

a shit set.
EDIT: Not necessary. I aknowledged that it was really bad in the first place, so there's no need to be a jerk about it. Just something to think about, since I'd like to see a world without everybody running generic sets.
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Greninja @ Focus Sash
Adamant 4 HP 252 Atk 252 Speed Torrent
Waterfall
Water Shuriken
Acrobatics
Night Slash

Am I a horrible person now? If you want a creative way to kill Talonflame, here ya go. Greninja can take the brave bird with the sash and OHKO with Waterfall. If the sash was already used, you can use eater Shuriken, which should hit before brave bird because nobody uses Jolly Talonflame. ...Don't expect this to kill much other than Talonflame.
Or you can use a mon like Tyranitar or Rotom-W that doesn't require you to run a shit set.
 
Or you can use a mon like Tyranitar or Rotom-W that doesn't require you to run a shit set.
I feel like we're preaching to a brick wall since the more we say don't use physical Greninja, practically everyone wants to run them. One more thing I don't understand is people's tendency to run a non Speed-boosting nature on Greninja for a little extra damage (you really miss out on outrunning lots of threats which is bad news for a frail mon like Greninja)
 
I feel like we're preaching to a brick wall since the more we say don't use physical Greninja, practically everyone wants to run them. One more thing I don't understand is people's tendency to run a non Speed-boosting nature on Greninja for a little extra damage (you really miss out on outrunning lots of threats which is bad news for a frail mon like Greninja)
Agreed. I tried running Modest Greninja and the extra power its not worth it.
 
I think an offensive spikes greninja could be really effective especilly paired with bisharp.

Greninja@life orb/focus sash
Timid 252 SpA 252 Spe 4 Def
Torrent to trick opponents protean
Spikes/Toxic spikes
Hydro pump
Ice beam
Extrasensory/Dark Pulse

This greninja utilises it's ability to force switches to set up spikes while still hitting hard. Hydro pump and ice beam are standard on good greninja sets for their ability to wreck most of the meta. The choice between dark pulse and extrasensory depends on what your team needs. Extrasensory allows greninja to 2hko Av conkeldurr, mega venusaur and reliably revenge kill keldeo while dark pulse allows you to hurt aegislash. HP fire and hp grass/grass knot are also option if your team has problems with ferrothorn and Scizor, or bulky water types.
 
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Debating whether I find this preferable to other more dedicated leads such as good ol' Forretress. I've been dabbling with both and I've found that Forretress' access to Rapid Spin is better from a defensive standpoint, but Forretress is pretty flimsy when I use it, do you think Greninja is an overall better choice? (It definitely has the Dark-type edge if Azelf decides to make a comeback)
 
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