Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Crosby87 said:
Besides, if the opponent lets Murkrow set up (in this case, using mean look), they can't switch out either. I'm just saying it's certainly more viable than some of those D ranked mons, for sure
BP teams can still Baton Pass out, even with Mean Look. Therefore, they can BP into Sylveon on the Mean Look, and the next turn Sylveon starts spamming Hyper Voices against Murkrow.

0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 216-254 (66.6 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

True, Murkrow will likely get off Perish Song, but then Sylveon will kill it or force it out, and then the BP player hard-switches into something else and starts again. Thus, Murkrow doesn't even perform that small niche particularly well; at best you set the team back a little, which doesn't guarantee a win against BP. Further, any offensive team can just straight-up muscle over Murkrow, and Stall can phaze it out and switch.
 
Murkrow does have access to priority featherdance, to screw over physical attackers, but that's pretty meh with only 4 moveslots to work with. All the other pokemon in D have at least something that makes them somewhat usable, abomasnow has hail and is great in trick room, cofagrigus can check/cripple certain pokemon who rely on their abilities like M-Pinsir, forcing them to switch out after the kill and is a great trick room user. Even froslass can spinblock it's own spikes, unlike deo. I just don't see how murkrow's "niche" is any larger than their's when better prankster users are so common and superior in almost every way.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Why would you switch it in on a Sylveon? *facepalm* like I said, in addition to countering BP teams, it can take out walls/stall and a lot of physical attackers as long as they don't have a SE attack so it's not completely useless like you're implying. Certainly better than a lot of the D rank Pokemon I'm seeing on this list which are outclassed in their roles

Murkrow offers a nice niche in OU.
No. Moving on.
 

Jaiho

bandy legged troll


Nominating Tornadus-T for B+ Rank

Honestly, this thing is so goddamn underrated, it isn't even funny. It has a great ability in regenerator, solid typing, great stats including a blazing speed tier, and a good movepool, including hurricane, u-turn, taunt, knock off, and fighting coverage, all of which culminates into a great offensive pivot. AV and LO are both good items, with AV making it really bulky and lets it tank a lot of hits, and LO making it pretty powerful, and letting it use support moves. Torn-T is a great choice for rain teams, since it is a great hurricane spammer, and does well vs. T-tar, and can easily pivot out of Zard-Y. Torn-T also WRECKS stall, beating so many common pokes on that playstyle, while simutaneously outspeeding and KOing a bunch of common offensive pokes. Really, there is no game where Torn-T is useless.

Some 'mons that Torn-T checks/beats:

Aegislash
Keldeo
T-tar
Lando-I
Exca out of sand
Heatran
Gengar
M-Venu
Chansey
Clefable
Terrakion
Breloom
Skarm
Lati@s
Deo-D (kinda, it limits it to 1 layer)

All in all, Torn-T fits in well with other B+ 'mons, and should move up
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
OUPL Champion


Nominating Tornadus-T for B+ Rank

Honestly, this thing is so goddamn underrated, it isn't even funny. It has a great ability in regenerator, solid typing, great stats including a blazing speed tier, and a good movepool, including hurricane, u-turn, taunt, knock off, and fighting coverage, all of which culminates into a great offensive pivot. AV and LO are both good items, with AV making it really bulky and lets it tank a lot of hits, and LO making it pretty powerful, and letting it use support moves. Torn-T is a great choice for rain teams, since it is a great hurricane spammer, and does well vs. T-tar, and can easily pivot out of Zard-Y. Torn-T also WRECKS stall, beating so many common pokes on that playstyle, while simutaneously outspeeding and KOing a bunch of common offensive pokes. Really, there is no game where Torn-T is useless.

Some 'mons that Torn-T checks/beats:

Aegislash
Keldeo
T-tar
Lando-I
Exca out of sand
Heatran
Gengar
M-Venu
Chansey
Clefable
Terrakion
Breloom
Skarm
Lati@s
Deo-D (kinda, it limits it to 1 layer)

All in all, Torn-T fits in well with other B+ 'mons, and should move up
My main problem with torn-t is that air slash is too weak and hurricane is inaccurate af. Focus blast is also very unreliable, and without it you don't even check like half the mons on this list lol. It's really not that strong and depends a lot on coverage. Imo B is a solid place for it.
taunt should be a staple on this guy.
 

Jaiho

bandy legged troll
My main problem with torn-t is that air slash is too weak and hurricane is inaccurate af. Focus blast is also very unreliable, and without it you don't even check like half the mons on this list lol. It's really not that strong and depends a lot on coverage. Imo B is a solid place for it.
taunt should be a staple on this guy.
Superpower is a thing too
 
Tornadus-Therian is a very good pokemon, no doubt about that, but it suffered heavily from the weather nerf and while rain is still very viable, the limited turns forces offensive teams to use every turn dealing as much damage as they can, making assault vest a lesser choice for those teams. Tornadus incarnate also gives it competition on these teams, being more powerful and having access to priority rain dance in an emergency. 121 speed is still amazing, but greninja outspeeds it OHKO's non-assault vest variants. Overall, because of it's amazing abilities as an offensive pivot that are magnified in rain, but tempered by the weather nerf and new introductions, Tornadus-Therian should stay in B rank.
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.


Nominating Tornadus-T for B+ Rank

Honestly, this thing is so goddamn underrated, it isn't even funny. It has a great ability in regenerator, solid typing, great stats including a blazing speed tier, and a good movepool, including hurricane, u-turn, taunt, knock off, and fighting coverage, all of which culminates into a great offensive pivot. AV and LO are both good items, with AV making it really bulky and lets it tank a lot of hits, and LO making it pretty powerful, and letting it use support moves. Torn-T is a great choice for rain teams, since it is a great hurricane spammer, and does well vs. T-tar, and can easily pivot out of Zard-Y. Torn-T also WRECKS stall, beating so many common pokes on that playstyle, while simutaneously outspeeding and KOing a bunch of common offensive pokes. Really, there is no game where Torn-T is useless.

Some 'mons that Torn-T checks/beats:

Aegislash
Keldeo
T-tar
Lando-I
Exca out of sand
Heatran
Gengar
M-Venu
Chansey
Clefable
Terrakion
Breloom

Skarm
Lati@s
Deo-D (kinda, it limits it to 1 layer)

All in all, Torn-T fits in well with other B+ 'mons, and should move up
lol how does torn beat those mons:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 207-243 (65.5 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 68 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 200-238 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 260-306 (82.2 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (sash)
252 SpA Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 162-192 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 166-196 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
also no, the only thing it checks is non sash loom, keld, lando-i and some stall pokes like mvenu chansey deo-d, skarm with taunt
 

Jaiho

bandy legged troll
lol how does torn beat those mons:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 207-243 (65.5 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 68 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 200-238 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 260-306 (82.2 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (sash)
252 SpA Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 162-192 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 166-196 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
also no, the only thing it checks is non sash loom, keld, lando-i and some stall pokes like mvenu chansey deo-d, skarm with taunt
It can outspeed Lati@s and either u-turn out or knock off their item, then regen off the damage
Breloom can be taunted out of spore, u-turned out of to break the sash, or straight up destroyed after the sash is broken
Run 72 Atk EVs on Torn-T and that 3HKO on Heatran is changed
72 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 231-273 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also Heatran can't win without a lava plume burn
I also said checks/beats which includes a lot more 'mons
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Hey guys just wanted to give you a heads up on a few things because I'm going to be pretty inactive this week. I'm going to be shipping out to Fort Benning, Georgia next Monday for Army BCT which is 8 weeks, so yeah I'm going to be completely inactive for around 16 weeks because after that I have to go through AIT which is another 8 weeks. I might get on Smogon a bit when I'm on leave, but other than that I don't see myself ever coming on any time soon, if ever.

So yeah I'll still be on this week but not super active, so I probably wont be able to make any updates with the ranking thread this week. In my absence, I am giving the ownership of the VR ranking thread to my boi Nog who I know for a fact is very knowledgeable on the metagame, very active, and is a really good player so he'll do just fine. alexwolf will continue with the regular ranking thread I assume, and if he wants to make any updates for this week he can go ahead and do it as I probably wont get to it.

I guess I'll treat this as my "farewell" post although I'll probably post again before I leave but idgaf. Thanks to all you Smogon nigs for letting me host a bunch of cool projects such as this one and others during Gen 5. I'm also very happy that I got into C&C because the people there are cool and it helped me learn a lot more about the game. Smogon definitely helped me get through boring as fuck days when I had nothing better to do. Although there's always going to be some people that got on my nerves while I was here, for the most part, you guys are all awesome. I didn't think I'd actually meet such cool people on a competitive Pokemon website lol, but I did. Thanks to all of you guys for the awesome 2.5 years on this site! Farewell!

Shoutout to my (BAN ME PLEASE)s, because I probably wouldn't have stuck around this long without them:



And much more, because all you guys are awesome!

Please don't reply to this post. Don't wanna derail one of my own threads :[
 
Last edited:

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Derailing the thread because fuck it, you're worth it.

You were my first and best Smogon friend. Honestly, I was really surprised when I found out how cool of a guy you were because this is Pokemon and I thought everybody here was a neckbeard lame-ass (BAN ME PLEASE) besides me. Turns out I was completely wrong and you're one of the coolest people I've met, not just on this site but in my life. We've been good friends for over a year now, and I definitely wouldn't have kept playing this garbage-ass game if I hadn't met you. Fuck, I mean, we started talking to each other because of the old ranking thread in BW. Back then we were both badgeless scrubs, and now look at us. We're badged scrubs! Talking to you on here, PS, and skype has been a blast. You're always good to talk to about Pokemon, smash, and even irl shit. Laddering with you, building with you, making fun of Mark and Don with you, it's all made this site worth it. Good luck in the army, where at least with guns you can increase your accuracy by working hard #focusblast and people won't bring random Scarf Cloysters. I hope you do come back, but mainly to skype just cause I'm gonna want to talk to you again. But if you don't that's fine too, people grow up. Just know that we'll all miss you.

Remember #MIAF for lyfe!
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
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Moved Mega Venusaur to A+
Kept Amoonguss at B
(already explain why in the VR thread)
Dropped Raikou to B-

Raikou was dropped because birdspam is way less common, and the competition from Thundurus and Mega Manectric for an offensive Electric-type is real, usually making Raikou the inferior option, unless you really need the extra special bulk to check opposing Thundurus, Greninja, and a few other special attackers.

As for Pokemon i want you guys to focus on, those are Victini, Volcarona, Rhyperior all for C+. Victini and Volcarona face a ton of competition as Fire-types from titans such as Mega Charizard X/Y, Heatran, and Talonflame, leaving little to no room for them to fit on a team, not to mention that Volcarona's sweeping abilities are very sub-par in this metagame. Both of those Pokemon don't seem to be as viable as great and underrated Pokemon such as Mega Aerodactly and Mega Alakazam. Rhyperior's rank drop suggestion is simple, birdspam teams are not as common anymore, and dealing with those kind of teams was one of Rhyperior's biggest assets.

And guys, sorry to ruin the atmosphere but if you want to say goodbye to Gary, send him a PM, don't clutter this thread.
 
Moved Mega Venusaur to A+
Kept Amoonguss at B
(already explained why in the VR thread)
Dropped Raikou to B-

Raikou was dropped because birdspam is way less common, and the competition from Thundurus and Mega Manectric for an offensive Electric-type is real, usually making Raikou the inferior option, unless you really need the extra special bulk to check opposing Thundurus, Greninja, and a few other special attackers.

As for Pokemon i want you guys to focus on, those are Victini, Volcarona, Rhyperior all for C+. Victini and Volcarona face a ton of competition as Fire-types from titans such as Mega Charizard X/Y, Heatran, and Talonflame, leaving little to no room for them to fit on a team, not to mention that Volcarona's sweeping abilities are very sub-par in this metagame. Both of those Pokemon don't seem to be as viable as great and underrated Pokemon such as Mega Aerodactly and Mega Alakazam. Rhyperior's rank drop suggestion is simple, birdspam teams are not as common anymore, and dealing with those kind of teams was one of Rhyperior's biggest assets.
It seems like a lot of your ranking changes have to do with the popularity of specific threats. I don't think it is a good idea to be moving things like Mega Venusaur and Rhyperior up and down based on the weekly popularity of bird spam. If Mega Venusaur becomes really popular again, then bird spam will just become more popular and Mega Venusaur will drop and Rhyperior will go up to counter bird spam. Then people will just stop using bird spam and Mega Venusaur will go back up again and Rhyperior will drop again. This cycle will just keep continuing. I think these rankings should be based on what threats a Pokemon can and can't handle, not based on what is currently "trendy" in OU.
 
It seems like a lot of your ranking changes have to do with the popularity of specific threats. I don't think it is a good idea to be moving things like Mega Venusaur and Rhyperior up and down based on the weekly popularity of bird spam. If Mega Venusaur becomes really popular again, then bird spam will just become more popular and Mega Venusaur will drop and Rhyperior will go up to counter bird spam. Then people will just stop using bird spam and Mega Venusaur will go back up again and Rhyperior will drop again. This cycle will just keep continuing. I think these rankings should be based on what threats a Pokemon can and can't handle, not based on what is currently "trendy" in OU.
That's kind of the point, though. If a Pokemon's value is based on what it can and can't handle and those things that it can or can't handle rise or fall in usage, then a Pokemon's usefulness in the metagame will be affected as well. While a Pokemon's own usage should be a very minor factor in its ranking (i.e. a Pokemon's rank shouldn't fall just because its usage does), trends in the metagame should definitely be seriously considered. If a Pokemon's main niche in OU is that it shuts down a certain playstyle and that playstyle goes from being very common to being rarely seen at all, then the Pokemon's ranking should drop in accordance since its main niche has become far less important. Sure, there are some Pokemon that might rise and fall periodically as metagame shifts occur, but that simply reflects the fact that a Pokemon's viability changes over time based on how it fares in a dynamic metagame. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.
 
Rhyperior for should stay in B-. It remains one of the only absolute char X counters switching in on a dragon dance and OHKOing in return
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Rhyperior: 291-343 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 183-216 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Rhyperior: 193-228 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 300-354 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Matchups in top tiers.
S Rank

Aegislash
Beats any variant.
Charizard (Mega-X)
Beats any variant.
Deoxys-D
Not going to do any damage.
Deoxys-S
Loses to psycho boosts
Landorus
Earth Power = GG. But Assault Vest can tank an earth power and OHKO with ice punch.
Thundurus
Can take a focus blast or superpower and OHKO in return.

A+ Rank

Azumarill
Water...
Bisharp
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 183-218 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
... Yeah
Charizard (Mega-Y)
Grass...
Clefable
Both do 1/3 per hit to each other but clefable would win in the end due to moonlight. Not an easy win for it though.
Excadrill
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Rhyperior: 328-385 (75.5 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rhyperior OHKOs in return.
Garchomp
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 166-198 (38.2 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And Rhyperior 2hkos in return with EQ or OHKOs with Ice Punch
Greninja
Water
Gyarados (Mega)
Water
Keldeo
Water.
Mawile (Mega)
Iron Head wins however. 168 Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 270-320 (88.8 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO That's not that horrid either.
Pinsir (Mega)

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 252-297 (58 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Switching in on a SD? No problem.
Scizor (Mega)
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 123-145 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 243-288 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It can handle non-SD Variants pretty well.
Talonflame
Hard Counter
Tyranitar
252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 124-147 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Counter.
Tyranitar (Mega)
+1 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 217-256 (50 - 58.9%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Can't really do much to this guy though.
Venusaur (Mega)
Grass...

A Rank

Dragonite
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 186-220 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ice Punch/Stone Edge 2hko through multiscale.
Ferrothorn
Grass...
Gengar
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 211-250 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 246-291 (93.8 - 111%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not to shabby
Heatran
lolheatran
But for real. 4 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 262-310 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So it handles non-balloon variants.
Hippowdon
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 121-144 (27.8 - 33.1%) -- 80.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hippo will win in the end due to slack off unless ice punch gets a freeze.
Kyurem-B
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 492-582 (113.3 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Rhyperior: 326-386 (75.1 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Assault Vest can 1v1 Stone Edge OHKOs.
Landorus-T
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 198-234 (45.6 - 53.9%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
-1 168 Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 240-284 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Latios
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 446-526 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Rhyperior: 298-351 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
168 Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 198-234 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not much it can do here.
Terrakion
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 199-235 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 356-422 (110.2 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Another mon it beats.

A- Rank

Breloom
Grass...
Chansey
Gonna lose this.
Latias
See Latios... Nothing's gonna change.
Mamoswine
252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 154-184 (35.4 - 42.3%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 196-232 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Manaphy
lolwater
Mandibuzz
168 Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 228-270 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Rhyperior: 105-124 (24.1 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pretty hard counter.
Rotom-W
Water
Skarmory

Neither can do anything but if skarmory tries to roost it get's hit really hard.
Tl:dr
16 Wins
21 Losses

I think C+ is really underselling one of the best physical walls in the game. Not to mention it packs quite a punch unlike other walls. Has access to rocks and awesome stab coverage. It's huge flaws are 4X weakness to grass and water and a pretty bad SPdef stat. But all in all it's a pretty solid looking pokemon.
 

Jacks0n

formerly grassycow
I want to see rhyperior stay in B-, but I would like to see volc drop aswell as entei moving up.

As said by wiggin, rhyperior has good merit but is held back by its crippling grass/water weakness. But still, this thing is good.

Volc is just getting worse and worse, it will never get a chance to set up against offence, balanced and stall have great checks and rocks are on almost everyteam. This thing should drop.

Entei just has the most spammable move ever, crippling all checks with a burn. Its actually pre good.
 
Kept Amoonguss at B (already explain why in the VR thread)
In my opinion Amoonguss probably deserves the B+ it got in the other thread. I don't really see how Amoonguss doesn't usually have room for Foul Play, considering HP Fire's only uses are 3HKOing Ferrothorn and maybe 2HKOing Mega Scizor (Amoonguss can't really touch Mawile even with HP Fire since Mawile outspeeds, has sub or Swords Dance, and 2/3HKOs with Sucker Punch/Iron Head/Play Rough). It's not like any of its other moves are any less replaceable than Foul Play, so you could just as easily use Hidden Power over Clear Smog/Stun Spore or maybe Giga Drain if you found yourself being forced out before you could use it (it being Giga Drain I mean). Sludge Bomb doesn't really hit too many other threats either, and with Sleep and possibly Paralyze, as well as a team literally full of Pokemon with Toxic, the Poison chance isn't very good either, and could cripple your team anyways because now you can't Toxic/Burn/Paralyze a Pokemon that switched into you. So while Amoonguss might not always have room for Foul Play, Foul Play is usually better than most of its other moves IMO.

Slowbro also doesn't wall as many Pokemon as well as you say it does either. Mega Charizard X can set up on it as long as Slowbro doesn't have Thunder Wave, and even if Slowbro does, paralyzation isn't as big of a deal as it would be since Charizard can boost its speed, and it has a good enough typing and is bulky enough that it's hard to wear down for most other defensive Pokemon. After one Dragon Dance, Dragon Claw 3HKOs, and after two it 2HKOs. So since it could go either way Slowbro isn't a reliable counter, and that's assuming Charizard doesn't have Thunder Punch or Outrage, and that it isn't a stall variant.

It wins against offensive LO Deoxys-S, so it mostly gets it, but special attacking variants or ones with Taunt aren't so easily beaten. If Azumarill is Choice Band and locked into another move then Slowbro beats it, but if it is BD or locks itself into Play Rough Slowbro gets beaten. If you're switching into Mega Gyarados it has likely already DDed or Dragon Dances on the switch, turning it into a similar scenario to Charizard X where luck is the most important factor, however Slowbro does even less back to Mega Gyarados than it does to Mega Charizard X. Fair enough about Talonflame, although it must be wary of boosting variants and Will-O-Wisp (if your cleric has died or cannot find time to switch in).

Mega Tyranitar gets the same scenario as the other Dragon Dancers, as Stone Edge 2HKOs after a single Dragon Dance which you are giving to it for free by switching. Dragonite also gets a free pass from Burn/Paralyze unlike the Mega Dragon Dancers and often Outrage which 2HKOs after a DD, although you beat it if Multiscale is already broken. You also have to be wary of boosting Landorus-T as Ice Beam doesn't OHKO while a x2 Earthquake gets you, although you do wall non-Swords Dance ones which are more common.

Hippowdon can phaze you out and then recover with Slack Off, and specially defensive ones are only 3HKOed by Scald. You can switch into Scarf Terrakion, but other variants you only check. Mandibuzz can't really touch you, but you can't exactly touch it either. Scald only 3HKOs Skarmory, giving it time to set up Spikes while Roosting, and if it's low on HP it can phaze you out.

So the list is this:
Slowbro: Mega Charizard X (shaky check), Deoxys-S (hard check), Choice Band Azumarill locked into anything but Play Rough, Excadrill, Garchomp, Dark Pulse-less Greninja, Mega Gyarados (shaky check), Keldeo, Mega Pinsir (shaky check), Choice Band Talonflame, DD Mega Tyranitar without Crunch (even without Crunch still a shaky check), regular Tyranitar without Crunch, Dragonite (shaky check), Heatran, non-Swords Dance Landorus-T, Choice Scarf Terrakion (fair check to the rest), Mamoswine.

10 Shaky Checks or things it only counters without a certain move
7 Things it Counters/Hard Checks

Amoonguss: Aegislash (shaky check), Thundurus (shaky check), Azumarill (I generally view it as more of a shaky check but whatever), non-Flamethrower Clefable, non-Ice Fang Mega Gyarados, Choice Scarf Keldeo locked into anything but HP Flying/Icy Wind, Mega Mawile (shaky check), Mega Tyranitar, regular Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Terrakion, Breloom.

7 Shaky Checks or things it only counters without a certain move
5 Things it Counters/Hard Checks (although there are definitely more, like Rotom-W or Aegislash which it checks but weren't put on the original list)

Pretty equal I'd say. And you didn't really counter many of the arguments that were used to raise it up (such as it being very useful as a pivot on balance and it doing some things just as good as Mega Venusaur who was in A at the time mainly for its use on defensive teams, etc.), just for the most part counter Gary's little paragraph.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Rhyperior for should stay in B-. It remains one of the only absolute char X counters switching in on a dragon dance and OHKOing in return
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Rhyperior: 291-343 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 183-216 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Rhyperior: 193-228 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 300-354 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Matchups in top tiers.


Tl:dr
16 Wins
21 Losses

I think C+ is really underselling one of the best physical walls in the game. Not to mention it packs quite a punch unlike other walls. Has access to rocks and awesome stab coverage. It's huge flaws are 4X weakness to grass and water and a pretty bad SPdef stat. But all in all it's a pretty solid looking pokemon.
Those defensive calcs for X are inaccurate because many Zards run HP investment.

168 Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 300-354 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There's also the fact that some Zards run Will-O-Wisp, which fucks you up hard. It can't KO you back with the Bulky spread, but it has 5 other teammates that can easily deal with you.


Rhyperior is not a solid counter.
 
Last edited:

alexwolf

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In my opinion Amoonguss probably deserves the B+ it got in the other thread. I don't really see how Amoonguss doesn't usually have room for Foul Play, considering HP Fire's only uses are 3HKOing Ferrothorn and maybe 2HKOing Mega Scizor (Amoonguss can't really touch Mawile even with HP Fire since Mawile outspeeds, has sub or Swords Dance, and 2/3HKOs with Sucker Punch/Iron Head/Play Rough). It's not like any of its other moves are any less replaceable than Foul Play, so you could just as easily use Hidden Power over Clear Smog/Stun Spore or maybe Giga Drain if you found yourself being forced out before you could use it (it being Giga Drain I mean). Sludge Bomb doesn't really hit too many other threats either, and with Sleep and possibly Paralyze, as well as a team literally full of Pokemon with Toxic, the Poison chance isn't very good either, and could cripple your team anyways because now you can't Toxic/Burn/Paralyze a Pokemon that switched into you. So while Amoonguss might not always have room for Foul Play, Foul Play is usually better than most of its other moves IMO.
Hidden Power Fire is great because Amoonguss is a good check to Mega Mawile as long as Sleep Clause hasn't been activated, and it would be a shame to not be able to do a thing to SubPunch Mega Mawile. It is also great so that Ferro can't come in for free to absorb Spore and set up hazards, and in general gives valuable coverage against many threatening Steel-types, such as Mega Scizor, Bisharp, and the aforementioned Mega Mawile. Not to mention that Aegislash 2HKOes with SR up anyway with Shadow Ball, so i don't see the appeal in Foul Play. Spore + Giga Drain + Clear Smog are musts, the first to be able to actually threaten things, the second to deal with a lot of the stuff that Amoonguss checks (Mega Gyarados, Keldeo, Azumarill, Terrakion) and have a reliable STAB, and Clear Smog to counter Belly Drum Azumarill if Sleep Clause has been activated, which could otherwise tank even one Sludge Bomb (after Sitrus and no SR) and 2HKO, and to check CM Clefable. So Amoonguss has only one slot for customization, where Hidden Power Fire and Hidden Power Ice are the best options imo, and Sludge Bomb is decent too.

Slowbro also doesn't wall as many Pokemon as well as you say it does either. Mega Charizard X can set up on it as long as Slowbro doesn't have Thunder Wave, and even if Slowbro does, paralyzation isn't as big of a deal as it would be since Charizard can boost its speed, and it has a good enough typing and is bulky enough that it's hard to wear down for most other defensive Pokemon. After one Dragon Dance, Dragon Claw 3HKOs, and after two it 2HKOs. So since it could go either way Slowbro isn't a reliable counter, and that's assuming Charizard doesn't have Thunder Punch or Outrage, and that it isn't a stall variant.
Every single Slowbro should be carrying Thunder Wave and a paralyzed Mega Charizard X is a useless one, at least offensively. Also, Thunderpunch is not a thing and Slowbro can tank one +1 Adamant Outrage and use Thunder Wave, so no matter what Slowbro hard counters it.

It wins against offensive LO Deoxys-S, so it mostly gets it, but special attacking variants or ones with Taunt aren't so easily beaten. If Azumarill is Choice Band and locked into another move then Slowbro beats it, but if it is BD or locks itself into Play Rough Slowbro gets beaten. If you're switching into Mega Gyarados it has likely already DDed or Dragon Dances on the switch, turning it into a similar scenario to Charizard X where luck is the most important factor, however Slowbro does even less back to Mega Gyarados than it does to Mega Charizard X. Fair enough about Talonflame, although it must be wary of boosting variants and Will-O-Wisp (if your cleric has died or cannot find time to switch in).
All out attacking sets don't usually run Taunt but SR, so Slowbro hard counters them. Taunt is found on leads that are either Rain Dance or Dual Screens sets. Slowbro is a great check to CB Azumarill and that's it, i never said it does anything against BD sets. As long as you have a bulky Fairy-type resist alongside Slowbro, CB Azumarill should never be a problem. About Mega Gyarados, it's the same situation with Mega Char X, a paralyzed M-GYara is a useless one, offensively. Finally, Slowbro dgaf about WoW from Talonflame or boosting sets, as it can easily stay in tip top shape even when burned, avoids the OHKO from +2 Talonflame and OHKOes back after BB recoil, and 2HKOes BU Talonflame while not getting 2HKOed back by +1 Talonflame.

Mega Tyranitar gets the same scenario as the other Dragon Dancers, as Stone Edge 2HKOs after a single Dragon Dance which you are giving to it for free by switching. Dragonite also gets a free pass from Burn/Paralyze unlike the Mega Dragon Dancers and often Outrage which 2HKOs after a DD, although you beat it if Multiscale is already broken. You also have to be wary of boosting Landorus-T as Ice Beam doesn't OHKO while a x2 Earthquake gets you, although you do wall non-Swords Dance ones which are more common.
Same as other DDers, a paralyzed Mega Tyranitar is no longer a threat and has been effectively countered. You don't use Thunder Wave against Dragonite but Ice Beam, which 2HKOes even through Multiscale, and if Dragonite uses Outrage Slowbro can just switch into one of its Dragon-resisting teammates to finish off Dragonite. Slowbro doesn't counter Dragonite without SR up, but it's a pretty solid check.

Hippowdon can phaze you out and then recover with Slack Off, and specially defensive ones are only 3HKOed by Scald. You can switch into Scarf Terrakion, but other variants you only check. Mandibuzz can't really touch you, but you can't exactly touch it either. Scald only 3HKOs Skarmory, giving it time to set up Spikes while Roosting, and if it's low on HP it can phaze you out.
Slowbro walls Hippo and can burn it back, and then spam Scald until Slack Off is over of PPs if Hippo is specially defensive. This is a counter. Slowbro counters Terrakion it doesn't check it, you must have the terms mixed up:
  • +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
While Slowbro paralyzes back and then can finish off Terrakion with Scald. Even if Slowbro dies in the process because Scald doesn't OHKO, the opponent will be left with a ~10 health left paralyzed Terrakion, which means that Slowbro has countered Terrakion. Mandibuzz can't touch you but you can burn it, with in combination with SR, makes her incredibly easy to wear down. I was talking about SR Skarmory, which is by far the most common hazard used on Skarmory, and one a 1 v 1 scenarion of SR Skarmory and Slowbro, SLowbro always comes on top, i hope i don't have to explain how.

So the list is this:
Slowbro: Mega Charizard X (shaky check), Deoxys-S (hard check), Choice Band Azumarill locked into anything but Play Rough, Excadrill, Garchomp, Dark Pulse-less Greninja, Mega Gyarados (shaky check), Keldeo, Mega Pinsir (shaky check), Choice Band Talonflame, DD Mega Tyranitar without Crunch (even without Crunch still a shaky check), regular Tyranitar without Crunch, Dragonite (shaky check), Heatran, non-Swords Dance Landorus-T, Choice Scarf Terrakion (fair check to the rest), Mamoswine.

10 Shaky Checks or things it only counters without a certain move
7 Things it Counters/Hard Checks

Amoonguss: Aegislash (shaky check), Thundurus (shaky check), Azumarill (I generally view it as more of a shaky check but whatever), non-Flamethrower Clefable, non-Ice Fang Mega Gyarados, Choice Scarf Keldeo locked into anything but HP Flying/Icy Wind, Mega Mawile (shaky check), Mega Tyranitar, regular Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Terrakion, Breloom.

7 Shaky Checks or things it only counters without a certain move
5 Things it Counters/Hard Checks (although there are definitely more, like Rotom-W or Aegislash which it checks but weren't put on the original list)

Pretty equal I'd say. And you didn't really counter many of the arguments that were used to raise it up (such as it being very useful as a pivot on balance and it doing some things just as good as Mega Venusaur who was in A at the time mainly for its use on defensive teams, etc.), just for the most part counter Gary's little paragraph.
No, the lists are the ones i initially mentioned, just without Aegislash on the list of Amoonguss, as i already showed you multiple times that Amoonguss gets 2HKOed by Shadow Ball with SR up. But really, if by your definitions Slowbro is a soft check to Mega Char X, you either need to change them to match those that the rest of us are using or lurk more.
 
Those defensive calcs for X are inaccurate because many Zards run HP investment.

168 Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 300-354 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There's also the fact that some Zards run Will-O-Wisp, which fucks you up hard. It can't KO you back with the Bulky spread, but it has 5 other teammates that can easily deal with you.


Rhyperior is not a solid counter.
It's not inaccurate because the majority of Zard X aren't going to be bulky... But I should've been more specific yes. It checks DD Zard
 
Uhh...What? Most if not all Zard X's are bulky nowadays, the extra bulk goes a long way and often gives teams an extra way to switch into Zard Y's Fire Blast and be able to set up on it along with many other mons. I'm not sure why you say that Zard X isn't bulky nowadays... Regardless, that calc is indeed correct.
 
As a side note, the extra bulk let's it have extra power with Flare Blitz, and it takes recoil from Flare Blitz much better with HP investment.
 
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