XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

[New Light]

No Espeon runs 252 SpA on Baton Pass. And how is Stored Power supposed to be 100 BP? This is the right calc after one CM (that's already after Espy came in to take a Brave Bird too, and another one on the CM)

+1 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 81-96 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for Albacore, you don't have right of speaking, you're calcing with a +2 Iron Defense boost that Scolipede can't even get against Whirlwind Skarm. And Scolipede can't do anything to Venusaur, Sludge Bomb 2HKO's so you can't pass a free Sub to something else either.

Seriously though, lots of bias here but common sense is hard to find.

Well, I think all of this about Skarm has been covered at one time or another by me or someone else and I don't feel like repeating. Instead, let me ask you, have you personally had any success using Skarmory or Mega Venusaur against BP? If so, I'd love to see some replays. I've used Skarm against BP and it didn't help much. At best, it's a very poor check to BP. As for Mega Venu, as good as it is, I've never EVER seen it do well against BP. In fact, I think you're the 1st person to actually argue for it being a stop to BP. I guess if you managed to Sleep Powder something that could suck for BP, but the odds of that happening to a team with Espeon and 5 Substitute users, all of whom are faster than Venu after a single Speed Boost, seem slim. Sleep Powder isn't known for its reliability even against regular teams. Even if you get a clear shot at something other than Espeon, 75% accuracy isn't great.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

This brings it down to the 50/50 we have been talking about this whole time. Scoli is going to get his +1 in speed, that's a given, but if the BP user predicts a Whirlwind and goes into Espeon, the skarm is out and Espeon does as it pleases. If Skarm Brave birds, and the BP user predicts that and Iron Defenses, Skarm does pitiful damage, (0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 120-144 (37 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) Scoli laughs and BPs into Espeon next turn and Skarm hopes for a crit.

We've established the first 3-5 turns are the most detrimental, regardless of what playstyle it may be.

Again, no one here is saying it's unstoppable. . .

It's not really a 50/50 though. Even if they predict the Whirlwind and go to Espeon, Skarmory can just come back in again to force Espeon out. And Skarmory can use any free turns to setup Spikes, not worrying about Espeon bouncing them back because even if that happens those Spikes on your field are irrelevant regardless of whether the stall user wins or loses.

Albacore Scolipede can accumulate Speed Boosts against Venusaur at the cost of HP (Mental Herb > Leftovers) and that's it. It can pass out to something else but the switch in will never have a free Sub. So Venusaur can freely spam Sludge Bomb regardless, as everything on BP takes a lot of damage. Nothing safely sets up on Mega Venusaur, as both CM users fear Sludge Bomb. There's also the threat of Leech Seed, which is pretty significant. Oh, and plenty of Mega Venusaur carry HP Fire too for that matter incase you're still adamant about Scolipede "setting up all over Mega Venu".

 

[Clone]

It's not really a 50/50 though. Even if they predict the Whirlwind and go to Espeon, Skarmory can just come back in again to force Espeon out. And Skarmory can use any free turns to setup Spikes, not worrying about Espeon bouncing them back because even if that happens those Spikes on your field are irrelevant regardless of whether the stall user wins or loses.

lolwut

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +2 200 HP / 56 Def Espeon: 76-90 (23.6 - 28%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Skarm has trouble breaking a sub after an Iron Defense with the standard set. While being 2HKOed after a speed boost, Iron Defense, and Calm Mind.

Are you trolling? Or do you just have absolutely zero experience against Baton Pass? Its honestly hard to tell.

 

[Halcyon.]

It's not really a 50/50 though. Even if they predict the Whirlwind and go to Espeon, Skarmory can just come back in again to force Espeon out. And Skarmory can use any free turns to setup Spikes, not worrying about Espeon bouncing them back because even if that happens those Spikes on your field are irrelevant regardless of whether the stall user wins or loses.

Albacore Scolipede can accumulate Speed Boosts against Venusaur at the cost of HP (Mental Herb > Leftovers) and that's it. It can pass out to something else but the switch in will never have a free Sub. So Venusaur can freely spam Sludge Bomb regardless, as everything on BP takes a lot of damage. Nothing safely sets up on Mega Venusaur, as both CM users fear Sludge Bomb. There's also the threat of Leech Seed, which is pretty significant. Oh, and plenty of Mega Venusaur carry HP Fire too for that matter incase you're still adamant about Scolipede "setting up all over Mega Venu".

If you're still using Spikes Brave Bird Skarmory, forgive me if I doubt your credibility.

Skarm can and WILL create 50/50s in favor of the BP team with Whirlwind. If you Whirlwind the Scolipede out, then it can go into Smeargle and fuck you, Zapdos and fuck you, or Vaporeon and fuck you. Or better yet, they can predict the WW and go out into Espeon, thus getting a free turn to set up. If you send out Skarm next turn, it is once again a 50/50 in favor of the BP team. You are pressured to Brave Bird, but the BP user can BP into Zapdos easily to Thunderbolt you for a KO or bait the WW and BP back into Espeon, thus giving them yet another turn to set up. I mean come on, this is like basic strategy. I've never used a fucking baton pass team and even I know how to beat this stuff.

EDIT: I do understand that this guy does not represent the majority of anti-ban arguments, and most are way more reasonable than this .-.

 

[WebBowser]

On the Skarmory debate: As a guy who uses Scolipede and non-BP espeon a lot, Skarm is actually quite awful against Scolipede alone, let alone a full BP team. Scoli laughs hard at BB (at +2, he takes about 50% from CB talonflame's BB, skarm has no chance). Whirlwind only works if the thing forced in has an unfavorable matchup against skarm, otherwise you just gave it a free turn. SR or Spikes is nothing more then a free turn to scoli, and is essentially saying "gee, I really hope I can live whatever sweeper he is about to pass his +2 defense and +1 speed to" on the off chance that later in the game, when Scolipede comes back in, it's on something that can kill a 75% health scoli (most phys attackers are unable to do so). It's a bad trade pretty much no matter what you do.

Non HP-fire venu is total setup bait for scoli, and even HP fire venu will have trouble stopping him. Leech seed is little more then an annoyance. Sleep powder can work... sometimes.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

If you're still using Spikes Brave Bird Skarmory, forgive me if I doubt your credibility.

Skarm can and WILL create 50/50s in favor of the BP team with Whirlwind. If you Whirlwind the Scolipede out, then it can go into Smeargle and fuck you, Zapdos and fuck you, or Vaporeon and fuck you. Or better yet, they can predict the WW and go out into Espeon, thus getting a free turn to set up. If you send out Skarm next turn, it is once again a 50/50 in favor of the BP team. You are pressured to Brave Bird, but the BP user can BP into Zapdos easily to Thunderbolt you for a KO or bait the WW and BP back into Espeon, thus giving them yet another turn to set up. I mean come on, this is like basic strategy. I've never used a fucking baton pass team and even I know how to beat this stuff.

EDIT: I do understand that this guy does not represent the majority of anti-ban arguments, and most are way more reasonable than this .-.

And you question my credibility? I have been using Baton Pass since 4th gen up to now for at least a few hundred games. How can you even discuss something you've never used, now that's something that makes me wonder.

Either way Spikes Brave Bird Skarmory is standard? What else would you be using, especially on Stall? Mandibuzz is by far the better Defogger for Stall anyways, and Heatran is the better SR user. I don't even.

Also, if you force out Scolipede you can either setup Spikes if you get a favorable matchup, or if you don't you just switch out accordingly. Mega Venusaur manhandles all the pokemon you mentioned by itself. That sounds reasonable enough to me. The predictions are in favor of the Stall user because Espeon cannot do anything to Skarm without significant boosts, which it can't obtain without perfect prediction on the BP users end and even then. Espeon has no form of recovery barring Lefties; it can't freely come in on Skarm over and over, and passing out everytime against Skarm is practically impossible with the threat of Whirlwind.

Anyways this is just turning into a one person vs everyone contest which I'm not really interested in. If you bring up some some solid arguments for once then I'll continue to reply, but I consider you questioning my integrity (even though you don't even know me which is even more questionable) as ad hominem so I don't really feel like arguing with you.

 

[WebBowser]

Liarliarpantsonfire Here is my argument...

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 106-126 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is enough for espeon to swap in, even in the worst case (take a BB to the face), and alternate between CM and morning sun until it has enough boosts to be happy. At which point you will have a relatively tanky espeon who will one shot anything that fails to outspeed and kill it (granted, there is a decent number of mons who can do that).

This worse case is assuming that you make two correct predictions and win a "coin flip":

Prediction number one: you predict scolipede will attempt to setup as opposed to swapping to espeon (relatively simple one, scoli has little reason to swap out unless your opponent really hates SR)

Coin Flip one: The mon brought in is unfavorably matched against you (let us define this as you hardwall it and it cannot setup in your face in any meaningful manner, or you threaten it out with BB and it cannot threaten you back)

Prediction number two: Assuming that you whirlwind brings in something that you have a favorable matchup against (the odds of this very depending on team, on my team for example this is approximately a 2/5 chance), you predict the espeon hard swap and brave bird instead of setting up hazards and BB it.

If you fail prediction number one by setting up hazards and not whirlwind, you have a decent chance of being swept as you now have an espeon with +2 defense and +1 speed, and skarm is totally worthless against it. If you decide to whirlwind and not setup hazards, then you are hoping that the bounced whirlwind drags in something that can beat espeon, forcing a hard swap.

If you fail the coin flip, then you are forced to hard swap, which is practically a death sentence against a BP team and puts you at a bad disadvantage against an HO team.

If you fail prediction number 2 by setting up hazards instead of whirlwinding, then you just gave espeon a free swap in. Alternatively, if you BB and espeon does not swap in, you just broke your own sturdy for no reason, not to mention you just passed up a chance to get your all important first hazard up.

The odds are badly against skarmory, it is as simple as that. BP is absolutely nothing today like it was in gen 4 or even gen 5. Ninjask could not hope to have such a positive matchup against skarm, as it could not take a brave bird. There are legitimate scolipede counterleads, but skarm is not one of them. The reason why scolipede is so powerful is that there are a decent number of mons scoli can use as setup bait (Even ubers like mega kanga are nothing more then setup bait for scoli) without any fear what so ever. This combined with the fact that almost no mon(megazam and maybe deo-s are the only mons who can actually accomplish this) can swap into scoli and stop him from passing his garnered boosts is what makes him overpowered imo and what allows him to restart failed chains so easily.

 

[Derpinator]

And you question my credibility? I have been using Baton Pass since 4th gen up to now for at least a few hundred games. How can you even discuss something you've never used, now that's something that makes me wonder.

Either way Spikes Brave Bird Skarmory is standard? What else would you be using, especially on Stall? Mandibuzz is by far the better Defogger for Stall anyways, and Heatran is the better SR user. I don't even.

Also, if you force out Scolipede you can either setup Spikes if you get a favorable matchup, or if you don't you just switch out accordingly. Mega Venusaur manhandles all the pokemon you mentioned by itself. That sounds reasonable enough to me. The predictions are in favor of the Stall user because Espeon cannot do anything to Skarm without significant boosts, which it can't obtain without perfect prediction on the BP users end and even then. Espeon has no form of recovery barring Lefties; it can't freely come in on Skarm over and over, and passing out everytime against Skarm is practically impossible with the threat of Whirlwind.

Anyways this is just turning into a one person vs everyone contest which I'm not really interested in. If you bring up some some solid arguments for once then I'll continue to reply, but I consider you questioning my integrity (even though you don't even know me which is even more questionable) as ad hominem so I don't really feel like arguing with you.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +2 240 HP / 80 Def Scolipede: 110-132 (34.2 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +4 240 HP / 80 Def Scolipede: 74-90 (23 - 28%) -- 69.7% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +6 240 HP / 80 Def Scolipede: 56-68 (17.4 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO

Taking these calcs into account, I think it is rather predictable what Skarmory will be doing. If, for some reason, maybe lack of experience, you decide to lead Skarmory and BB Scolipede while it uses Iron Defense, I am pretty sure that no veteran player would have to come and tell you that you are wasting your time trying to kill it and you should try phazing or setting up instead. Regardless of which of the two options you choose, your opponent will probably go to Espeon unless they, for some other reason, think that you have no idea what you are doing. In that case, this calc becomes relevant:

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +2 200 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 82-97 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, you can either just keep spamming BB for some reason, assuming you haven't been phazed, or you switch out to something more useful. The options: Chansey and Haze Quagsire, assuming you have the latter. In the case of Chansey, you'd probably just be spamming Seismic Toss, which is essentially screaming set-up fodder. As for Haze Quagsire, I am pretty sure reading any five consecutive pages of this thread will probably give you enough knowledge about the general opinion.

However, let's do as you say and spam BB on Espeon because it has no recovery. Let's assume you've been getting lucky and are probably going to 4HKO. Your opponent only has 2 turns to use CM before needing to try and take you out or switch. That is, of course, assuming that your BB recoil is being covered by Lefties, which it could be, but it isn't relevant enough to check. So you are spamming BP for two turns and your opponent is using CM for two turns, putting them at 0/+2/+2/+2/+1.

+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 288-340 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Game over for Skarmory. However, let's assume they get scared and don't want to take on Skarmory with Espeon for whatever reason, maybe you ignored the futility of BBing a boosted Scolipede and hit Espeon on the switch. What are the options? Vaporeon will get phazed, Zapdos/Mr. Mime will get phazed, Sylveon will get phazed, Scolipede will get phazed. So, only Smeargle stands a chance. Let's assume you have one layer of Spikes somehow, breaking Smeargle's Sash. Does it even matter though?

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +2 88 HP / 168 Def Smeargle: 85-102 (31.1 - 37.3%) -- 79.4% chance to 3HKO

Not really, you'll just get Spored before you can kill it. Okay, well that is where Mega Venu joins the game. It can soak up Spore, so there should be no problem, right? Well, let's consider what just happened. Smeargle comes in, takes a BB, uses Ingrain. What do you do that turn? Let's say you predict the Ingrain and go for a second BB. Then, you switch to Venu as it Spores. Then what? Well, seeing how Espeon could safely set up 2 CM at least before chickening out, we can assume Smeargle is at +2. It BPs back to Espeon as you Sludge Bomb.

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. +2 200 HP / 252 SpD Espeon: 48-57 (14.9 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

Unless you poison right off the bat, Espeon just uses Substitute and sets up all over you. Bring in Skarmory and it can just 2HKO assuming your Sturdy is intact. Seeing how it is common knowledge that every other part of stall apart from Haze Quagsire is setup fodder, I'm pretty sure we can see that Skarmory and Mega Venu together do very little if anything significant. We even made the assumptions that you predicted amazingly well, your opponent was blind to calcs and your opponent Ingrained before Sporing. So, unless you have Haze Quagsire on your stall team as well, Skarmory/Mega Venu don't put much pressure on BP teams. If you do have Haze Quagsire, then you could be running Weedles and you'd do just as well as your Skarm/Venu + Haze Quagsire team. Okay, ya, overexaggeration, but you get the point.

Now, for the main reason I felt compelled to comment.

ad hominem

Ad Hominem does not refer to people using some characteristic of yours to invalidate your argument, it refers to people bringing up an irrelevant characteristic to invalidate your argument. I'm pretty sure that your experience with BP is more than relevant, making your finger-pointing and your attempt to downplay the importance of experience incorrect. As for the people saying, "I've been playing BP since I was in diapers" or something to that effect, nobody cares. It doesn't matter. There is a reason BP is this big of a problem as opposed to Gen <6.

 

[x MAD AXES x]

And you question my credibility? I have been using Baton Pass since 4th gen up to now for at least a few hundred games. How can you even discuss something you've never used, now that's something that makes me wonder.

Either way Spikes Brave Bird Skarmory is standard? What else would you be using, especially on Stall? Mandibuzz is by far the better Defogger for Stall anyways, and Heatran is the better SR user. I don't even.

Also, if you force out Scolipede you can either setup Spikes if you get a favorable matchup, or if you don't you just switch out accordingly. Mega Venusaur manhandles all the pokemon you mentioned by itself. That sounds reasonable enough to me. The predictions are in favor of the Stall user because Espeon cannot do anything to Skarm without significant boosts, which it can't obtain without perfect prediction on the BP users end and even then. Espeon has no form of recovery barring Lefties; it can't freely come in on Skarm over and over, and passing out everytime against Skarm is practically impossible with the threat of Whirlwind.

Anyways this is just turning into a one person vs everyone contest which I'm not really interested in. If you bring up some some solid arguments for once then I'll continue to reply, but I consider you questioning my integrity (even though you don't even know me which is even more questionable) as ad hominem so I don't really feel like arguing with you.

Scolipede stays in you whirlwind has a 2/5 chance to go into a favorable mu (espeon and sylveon, or Mr.Mine if you are really afraid of perish song)

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Espeon: 117-138 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It doesn't even OHKO with 252 attack

252 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Espeon: 153-181 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So even if espeon switches in predicting a whirlwind she's not dead and sylveon takes it better than espeon.
You whirlwind into Zapdos you almost die (die if you aren't 252 hp/ 252 sp def)

252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 284-336 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

and then it is crippled for the whole game, which any BP poke can kill it

You whirlwind into Vaporeon you get set up on and have to go for whirlwind again before it acid armors and passes the +2 to espeon, then it's gg unless you crit.

You whirlwind into Smeargle, he outspeeds, ingrains, you break his sash with BB, he BP into zapdos, kills your skarmory (BB recoil) and you're down 6v5 (well 5v5 since smeargle is 1 hp) vs a Bp team or a smart player immediately BP into vaporeon which she doesn't have to predict, you stay in BB her, next turn, she acid armors, she's not going to die to 2 BB or 3 BB

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 106-126 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

She then passes to scolipede which

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Scolipede: 92-110 (28.3 - 33.9%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO

He sets up as long as he wants on you, lets say he gets +6 speed and +6 defence as we know he is going to acid armor again after that little damage from skarmory

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +4 252 HP / 252 Def Scolipede: 62-74 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO

this is without lefties and with a mental herb, you switch after vaporeon comes in she still gets a free acid armor and what can you do now to stop vaporeon from BPing to whatever poekmon? It's gg.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I think that the only reason BP are uncompetitive is Scolipede. You eliminate Scolipede and even with Magic Bounce Espeon BP teams are competitive and requires skill to properly use.

 

[Derpinator]

I think that the only reason BP are uncompetitive is Scolipede. You eliminate Scolipede and even with Magic Bounce Espeon BP teams are competitive and requires skill to properly use.

Not exactly disagreeing with the fact that Scolipede is a notable factor in the problem with BP, but why do you think it is the only one?

 

[Karxrida]

I think that the only reason BP are uncompetitive is Scolipede. You eliminate Scolipede and even with Magic Bounce Espeon BP teams are competitive and requires skill to properly use.

Espeon lets BP run over stall and slower teams, so I'd be inclined to disagree.

 

[haunter]

Voting thread is up.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

So you're questioning a mod who clearly has more experience than you? I'm pretty sure I don't need a source when he is the source.
BP is literally just one copypasted team, while Hyper Offense, Balance, and even Stall have multiple variants.
There is no such thing as a Pokémon that checks every sweeper in the game. If there was one it'd either be broken or used on every team ever.

I'm pretty sure I've seen the same HO and Stall teams about 50 times each in the ladder. They are about as easy to copypaste as Baton Pass.

Using a "standard" playstyle isn't a guarantee of originality.

 

[Derpinator]

I'm pretty sure I've seen the same HO and Stall teams about 50 times each in the ladder. They are about as easy to copypaste as Baton Pass.

Using a "standard" playstyle isn't a guarantee of originality.

Trying to compare the redundancy in HO/Stall to that in BP is an extreme stretch. Stall and HO have many more viable variations, all of which work, all of which have their own set of checks/counters. A core of 3 or maybe 4 Pokemon may be redundant, but that is essentially it. BP is literally one team, Scolipede/Smeargle/Espeon/Vaporeon/Sylveon + Zapdos/Mr. Mime, so the "core" is 5 Pokemon and the last slot is where there is variation, although very little. As of now, very few variations of this have been seen, specifically ones that work. Seeing the same team 50 times on the ladder is meaningless unless you have only played maybe 100 times, in which case, that observation is meaningless.

 

[Rotosect]

BP teams being highly formulaic is actually an argument against their brokeness, not in support of, since you already know what to expect from them.
On the other hand, stall, balanced and HO have the luxury of sneaking a surprise Red Card/Haze/phazing move that can throw a wrench into the BP team's strategy.
Relying on copy-pasted teams is ultimately BP's main downfall and the reason they have become more or less a joke on their own suspect test ladder.
This suspect test has convinced me that BP teams are not broken but merely anti-metagame.

 

[Tactical]

In regard to stalls validity versus Baton Pass, I find it a small sacrifice to run Curse Trevenant on the team. He gets a free switchin and setup on half of the standard BP teams pokemon (Scoliopede, Smeargle, Vaporeon) while piercing Substitute, Protect, and even Espeon's omnipresent Magic Bounce. Then switching to a standard Chansey set leaves the combination of Curse and Seismic Toss pressure too much for most BP players I've seen to be able to deal with often forcing them to break the chain themselves, unless they locked themselves in with Ingrain, in which case they just die.

Granted Trev isn't exactly OU anymore but I don't think anyone will argue that he is as much of an obscure gimmick pull as Haze Quagsire (Which really wouldn't be that bad, but Quaggy really needs that 4th move slot for other matchups) and can make a fine addition to any stall team in other capacities as he is a steller spin blocker and general Stallmon.

 

[Syberia]

BP teams being highly formulaic is actually an argument against their brokeness, not in support of, since you already know what to expect from them.

Knowing exactly what to expect from something is not an argument against its brokenness. In fact, the fact that you know exactly what BP is going to do and are still powerless to stop it outside of a few specific Pokemon, many of which have better things to do outside of stopping something they will encounter in a small percentage of matches overall, is an argument for its brokenness, not against it. Everyone knew what DP Garchomp was going to do the minute it came onto the field, as well as BW Thundurus and Excadrill to an extent, yet they were still deemed broken. There is simply no way to "outpredict" or "play around" BP, it's either carry a certain Pokemon or you lose.

 

[Red Cat]

BP teams being highly formulaic is actually an argument against their brokeness, not in support of, since you already know what to expect from them.
On the other hand, stall, balanced and HO have the luxury of sneaking a surprise Red Card/Haze/phazing move that can throw a wrench into the BP team's strategy.
Relying on copy-pasted teams is ultimately BP's main downfall and the reason they have become more or less a joke on their own suspect test ladder.
This suspect test has convinced me that BP teams are not broken but merely anti-metagame.

A Pokemon / playstyle does not necessarily have to be unpredictable to be broken. Mega Kanga basically ran the same set all of the time but it was obviously broken.

I do think there is a notable difference between Baton Pass teams and a single broken Pokemon. A single broken Pokemon can have its counters, but the problem is that someone using a broken Pokemon has 5 other Pokemon which can deal with the few checks and counters to that broken Pokemon. It is true that there are not a lot of counters to Baton Pass teams, but if you have a counter on your team, the Baton Pass team does not have any additional teamslots to reliably beat the counter since it has to devote all of its teamslots to Scolipede, Espeon, Vaporeon, Sylveon, Smeargle, and usually Zapdos. Because of this, I think Baton Pass teams are less broken than a number of individual Pokemon in OU (I won't name them because I don't want to derail this thread).

I hope that those who want to nerf Baton Pass teams don't pull a 180 when there will be suspect tests to nerf HO because right now balanced and stall have a really hard time against both.

One more thing: Tactical, you lost all credibility when you used the words "Trevenant" and "fine addition to any stall team" in the same sentence.

 

[Tactical]

One more thing: Tactical, you lost all credibility when you used the words "Trevenant" and "fine addition to any stall team" in the same sentence.

Considering the previous statement that Stall can be as copy/paste as BP itself, it seems people may be complaining they're being pushed too far out of their comfort zones when it comes to finding acceptable answers to this problem.

I hope this does not result in yet another thing being banned because it is simply inconvenient to counter, rather than being legitimately broken.

 

[Karxrida]

Considering the previous statement that Stall can be as copy/paste as BP itself, it seems people may be complaining they're being pushed too far out of their comfort zones when it comes to finding acceptable answers to this problem.

I hope this does not result in yet another thing being banned because it is simply inconvenient to counter, rather than being legitimately broken.

Stall might not be as varied as other playstyles, but it's sure as hell not copypaste like BP.

Also just stop with the slippery slope BS. It's a logical fallacy and a horribly stupid reason to be anti-ban.

 

[Derpinator]

BP teams being highly formulaic is actually an argument against their brokeness, not in support of, since you already know what to expect from them.
On the other hand, stall, balanced and HO have the luxury of sneaking a surprise Red Card/Haze/phazing move that can throw a wrench into the BP team's strategy.
Relying on copy-pasted teams is ultimately BP's main downfall and the reason they have become more or less a joke on their own suspect test ladder.
This suspect test has convinced me that BP teams are not broken but merely anti-metagame.

Simply because you know the formula doesn't mean that you can counter it. Even some of the counters listed so far aren't actual counters to BP, they just mean that your opponent cannot play against them the same way as they do another team, meaning they can't lead Scolipede. As for the actual checks, stuff like Haze, unless you spam them repeatedly, you aren't going to be playing a winning game. If you do spam them, then a) convince me that is what we want the meta to look like and b) tell me what you do when you run out of PP.

Considering the previous statement that Stall can be as copy/paste as BP itself, it seems people may be complaining they're being pushed too far out of their comfort zones when it comes to finding acceptable answers to this problem.

I hope this does not result in yet another thing being banned because it is simply inconvenient to counter, rather than being legitimately broken.

Stall can be as copy/paste as BP itself. Stall can be as copy/paste. Stall CAN be. BP is copy/paste.

If by comfort zone you mean ability to play moderately well against other playstyles then yes, you are absolutely correct. Otherwise, you are refusing to acknowledge the arguments and simply choose to pass it off as, "Oh, you just don't want to do it."

What a coincidence, I called it like what, a couple of pages back?

Stall might not be as varied as other playstyles, but it's sure as hell not copypaste like BP.

Also just stop with the slippery slope BS. It's a logical fallacy and a horribly stupid reason to be anti-ban.

New plan, stop acknowledging the slippery slope idiots because it seems very possible that many people don't know what a logical fallacy is at this point.

 

[Tactical]

Also just stop with the slippery slope BS. It's a logical fallacy and a horribly stupid reason to be anti-ban.

I'm not Anti-ban, I'm in favor of #2.

Granted, the prevalence of Zapdos over Mr. Mime goes to show how little people are willing to compromise their ideal teams to include Perish Song on just one pokemon.

#2 should be able to let Baton Pass exist as a viable playstyle of team without it being overbearing, without completely gutting it ala #3.

 

[Clone]

I'm not Anti-ban, I'm in favor of #2.

Granted, the prevalence of Zapdos over Mr. Mime goes to show how little people are willing to compromise their ideal teams to include Perish Song on just one pokemon.

#2 should be able to let Baton Pass exist as a viable playstyle of team without it being overbearing, without completely gutting it ala #3.

Name one Viable Perish Song user that can afford to use it over another move.

 

[New Light]

Granted, the prevalence of Zapdos over Mr. Mime goes to show how little people are willing to compromise their ideal teams to include Perish Song on just one pokemon.

You say that like it's easy to fit an OU viable Perish Song user onto any team. Politoed and Celebi are the only passable Perish Song users I can think of. Politoed works for dedicated rain teams but it's complete shit on anything but those. Celebi could work in theory, but it prefers to run other things over PS and it's not good enough in OU that you can just slap it onto any team and expect it to pull its weight. It needs proper support to have a chance.

So, to run Perish Song in a somewhat successful manner, you either need to run a rain team or build a team around a lackluster set for a generally outclassed Pokemon that is weak to some of the most common attacking types in the meta (Flying, Fire, Dark, Bug). And all of this is for nothing if the opponent is running Mr.Mime over Zapdos.

Edit: Also, Perish Song is no guarantee of victory, even against a team lacking Mr. Mime.