Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Baharoth]

Now, I'm not saying Mega Charizard Y is bad, but I feel like it should drop to A because it is simply not as threatening as Mega Charizard X. I not once have felt threatened by Mega Charizard Y nowadays, I worry about Mega Charizard X. After a Dragon Dance, you risk having your team swept, but with Char Y, you lose maybe one Pokemon, then it is super easily revenge-killed. Sure, not much can directly switch in, but its incredibly easy to revenge kill it. For all these reasons, I feel like Char Y should drop into A.

3 things that are wrong with this imo...

First Zard X is S rank, so even if we say its more threatening than Y, the rankings already reflect that.
Second if you get swept by Zard X just like that, its either because your team is flawed or you missplayed earlier in the match saccing your check/counter somewhere else. As good as he is but he cant just go and sweep a decent team without its checks out of the way.

Third, just because the people in the lower ranks always let their Zard Y die a useless death after killing something that doesnt mean that it has to be like that. I mean i know where you are comming from, I ve seen it countless times, Zard Y comes in, kills something and then stays in against something faster to die, but you have to realize that this is because of bad plays. Nothing keeps Zard Y from switching out to something that can take on the check and come in later in the game. I ve had games against good players where Zard Y managed to come in 5 times and more to fire of an attack, didnt bother me that much as i always pack a counter for it but if i hadnt the damage on my team would have been massive. Unless your running out of good switch ins there is absolutely no reason to sacc it like that.
That beeing said, if you can keep the field clear of rocks, that thing can fuck up opposing teams like nothing else as almost nothing can switch into it. And stop comparing it to things like Azu or even Mawile, ZardY hits harder than both of them.

 

[Zibbity]

Just outta curiosity, I see this point being made several times by different people, but what exactly is "defining the meta"? Is it forcing people to run counters/checks? Is it usage? Because regarding Aegislash and Mawile, I think "defining the meta" is kind of a vague statement. I can only go by my personal, mid-ladder experience, but I can't remember the last time Aegislash has given me serious trouble, but M-Mawile on the other hand... Holy shit. I facepalm when I see that thing in team preview. Aegislash is good, no doubt, and it's also more unpredictable than M-Mawile, but M-Mawile wrecks shit stoopid hard.

Aegislash is the most used Pokemon in the upper ladder. Those meta-defining Pokemon are used the most by 'top players' and your team should be prepared for them.
I ask players why Pokemon like Forretress or Metagross or Hawlucha aren't gaining usage or are viable and they say it's because of Aegislash.

I agree with you. Aegislash hasn't given me a whole lot of trouble from my experiences, in fact I use Aeg more effectively that most of my opponents. For Mega Mawile I can say I've been screwed up many times as I either take it down on turn one or sacrifice another Pokemon so I can check it with someone like Landorus or Rotom Heat.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

Nominating Greninja for A rank or maybe even A- rank.

Greninja is a fantastic revenge killer and great at picking off weakened threats, I don't think it's possible to question that. However I don't believe it belongs with the rest of the A+ ranked pokemon. In comparing it with the rest of the pokemon in that rank, all of them can either
-Sweep a large portion of the metagame
-can run multiple great sets
-have great bulk
>deal large portions of damage at a time
>have priority brave-bird
Greninja is none of those things. Greninja is frail, not incredibly strong, and can't sweep. It is also revenge killed by pretty much every single scarfer in the game, and it also weak to priority.
Aside from that, here are the three major reasons I believe Greninja should drop:
1. It can't switch into anything.
It's true that once Greninja is in safely, it can do serious damage. The problem is, when is it going to get in safely? Mandibuzz, Chansey and defensive Heatran are the only pokemon it can switch into without possibly losing at least half it's health, and even then, Heatran's Earthpower does a chunk of damage. Considering Hydro Pump can't OHKO (
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 276-328 (71.5 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), Unless Greninja is at full health, if you include Life Orb damage, Earth Power has a chance to 2HKO. The only feasable way I see to get Greninja in is a double switch or using volt switch/U-turn, but even that can be played around. Factor in that Water/Dark is an awful defensive type, and it just amplifies how hard it is to bring in Greninja, and also shows that it provides no defensive synergy whatsoever, which is important on offensive teams, despite what some would lead you to believe.
2. The item Assault Vest exists
Now, this may seem like a silly argument that could be used against any special attacker, but it is very critical for Greninja because it can't afford to not to significant damage because of it's reliance on life orb. Every time it doesn't get a KO or at least do significant damage is a 10% waste of health to a Greninja. Because of this, it gets weared down really easily. Factor in that it really isn't that powerful in the first place (404 special attack really isn't that god when you're losing 10% health every turn and you cant' take a hit) and assault vest severely cripples it's ability. Now you can argue that U-turn helps it get out of situations where it can be KOed, but that isn't optimal because A. You're basically losing 20% of your health just to switch out, B. It forces you to run a -defense nature which makes it worse at taking hits than it already is, and C. It forces you to drop an important coverage move like Extrasensory, Dark Pulse, or Hidden Power Grass.
3. Reliance on Life Orb
I've already kind of touched on this a bit, but because of it's reliance on Life Orb, Greninja gets worn down really easily, and for something that pretty much needs to be at full health in order to switch in and take a hit, that isn't good.
A final point that isn't really as much of a point against it as the others, but is important none the less is that Greninja pretty much relies on good prediction, and more so that almost any other pokemon, a prediction can cost you dearly. Say you're facing a M-Venu, and your opponent also has a Bisharp. Now, you have two options here: Go for the Hydro Pump on the predicted Bisharp, or go for the Extrasensory to beat the Venu. Now like I said, prediction is always important in pokemon for any pokemon, but almost no other pokemon puts the pressure on your to predict right or die than Greninja. You go for the Extrasensory, Bisharp comes in for free and kills you with pursuit, go for the hydropump and he stays in with Venu, bye bye Greninja. Now obviously this is only a hypothetical scenario, but it is a very real one that Greninja players face, and what makes Greninja such a risky pokemon to use. Now granted, there is the possibility of the other player mispredicting, which can also cost them one of their pokemon, which is why Greninja is so good, but because of the risk involved, along with all the other reasons listed above, that I don't think it's A+ good.

 

[Halcyon.]

Drop the fuck out of Espeon, Scolipede, Vaporeon, Smeargle, and Zapdos. None of those Pokemon are very good with the exceptions of Zapdos and Scolipede, and with BP gone their viability has taken a massive dive. Vaporeon and Smeargle should be taken off the list imo, and Espeon should be D or maaaaybe C-. Scolipede's LO set is cool so it can move to wherever.

 

[Rosen]

Drop the fuck out of Espeon, Scolipede, Vaporeon, Smeargle, and Zapdos. None of those Pokemon are very good with the exceptions of Zapdos and Scolipede, and with BP gone their viability has taken a massive dive. Vaporeon and Smeargle should be taken off the list imo, and Espeon should be D or maaaaybe C-. Scolipede's LO set is cool so it can move to wherever.

Nah man drop most of that shit but Zapdos is still excellent even outside of BP

 

[Halcyon.]

Nah man drop most of that shit but Zapdos is still excellent even outside of BP

Zapdos isn't really "excellent" by any means. It struggles to do much of anything tbh. I can't think of a single common Rocks setter that it beats, so as a Defogger it's not very good. It is weak to SR as well, which makes checking/countering flying types even harder for it. I've wanted Zapdos to move down for a while now regardless of BP but now this is a good chance to have it actually happen.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Scolipede should probably also not drop as quick passing is still legal and it's life orb set is still really good.

 

[sidakarya]

Espeon should definitely drop, and drop far down. Vaporeon and Smeargle are probably not even worth keeping on the list.

However, I could see a case for Scolipede and Zapdos staying. Scoli's quickpassing set is still quite powerful in 3-mon passing cores and standalone. It's just not as horrendously broken as full BP was. It also has a very good LO sweeping set (it feels so glorious to OHKO Deo-D, before it sets up a single hazard layer) and even a niche as a Spiker. Zapdos still fulfills a very valuable defensive niche, being a defogger that can check Talonflame, Azumarill, Pinsir and quite a few others and having ways to discourage Defiant users from switching in.

 

[Jukain]

Espy is D. Prolly can leave Smeargle around because it's rly nb at SmashPass, Gore has to actually take a hit to set up while Smeargle can sleep and proceed to do its job. Maybe C? idk.

Zap and Scoli are fine.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Greninja should stay in A+ imo. It is a specialist at breaking down offensive teams, and even balance has to keep an answer for it. Between Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, and Extrasensory, Greninja is pretty tough to take a hit from, and its high Speed makes it the fastest relevant Pokemon without a Scarf. This makes it a threat that offense must keep in mind, and its coverage and power by virtue of Protean are also something. Prediction is not a good argument to move something down, because it works both sides. Also, yes, Assault Vest does exist, but not many Pokemon are viable wielders of it barring Conkeldurr and Goodra, both of which are rather niche Pokemon. It has a great offensive movepool to pester a lot of offensive Pokemon, and this includes HP Fire for Ferrothorn and the like. In my opinion, Greninja's frailty isn't what keeps it out of A+; it's what keeps it out of S Rank.

Scolipede is probably good in B+, because the LO cleaner set is pretty legit, sporting good coverage and in general being a great cleaner. Megahorn, EQ, and Poison Jab can swipe down a weakened team, and Scolipede has respectable power and is fast, and Speed Boost supplements more Speed too. I've used that set to good success since early XY and as far as I know, nothing has changed to make that particular set worse, so I think it's good where it is. The Sash+QuickPass is nice to pass SD and Speed Boosts to something like Staraptor or the like, since Baton Pass can be allowed on just one Pokemon. B+ is good.

Zapdos is fine since it's a nice Mega Pinsir check, so that's a niche.

I honestly think Espeon should be E Rank (or at least D). Outside of Baton Pass teams, which are now killed, there's simply nothing Espeon is good at. It is terrible at using Magic Bounce, because every hazard setter beats it one on one (I already made this argument in the older thread twice, go there to see). It's frail, and yes, it can use Dual Screens, but we have Deoxys-S, who outclasses Espeon in pretty much every way. It should be at least E Rank, because it honestly is that bad. Magic Bounce does not save Espeon from being just an average NU level Pokemon.

Smeargle could probably be C since it's still an okay solo Passer and a hazard setter, and Vaporeon is probably lower but I've never used it, maybe WishTect could be okayish of a set?

 

[Zibbity]

Drop the fuck out of Espeon, Scolipede, Vaporeon, Smeargle, and Zapdos. None of those Pokemon are very good with the exceptions of Zapdos and Scolipede, and with BP gone their viability has taken a massive dive. Vaporeon and Smeargle should be taken off the list imo, and Espeon should be D or maaaaybe C-. Scolipede's LO set is cool so it can move to wherever.

Espeon and Vaporeon for C- or D. I cannot talk too harshly against them, their niches that existed in Gen 5 are still there. Scolipede should not move anywhere because he can Baton Pass or go offensive on his own. Smeargle for D or unranked, it's a pathetic lead Pokemon with crap stats. Even if it puts someone to sleep, it's still easy to stop with priority. Zapdos is good with its uses without Baton Pass, just leave it at B- or drop to B.

 

[Stef0w]

Nominating klefki for B-.

Klefki gets a pretty bad rep due to swagger, but priority spikes, screens, Twave, toxic and sub is really damn good.

It's typing is also a major plus, and it can useally Twave a sweeper and cripple them.

It also works really well as a rain setter, to remove one of it's only two weaknesses.

It can also run CM, but it kind of sucks.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

Zapdos isn't really "excellent" by any means. It struggles to do much of anything tbh. I can't think of a single common Rocks setter that it beats, so as a Defogger it's not very good. It is weak to SR as well, which makes checking/countering flying types even harder for it. I've wanted Zapdos to move down for a while now regardless of BP but now this is a good chance to have it actually happen.

Mandibuzz seems to do the job just fine, and it arguably has a worse defensive typing.

Greninja should stay in A+ imo. It is a specialist at breaking down offensive teams, and even balance has to keep an answer for it. Between Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, and Extrasensory, Greninja is pretty tough to take a hit from, and its high Speed makes it the fastest relevant Pokemon without a Scarf. This makes it a threat that offense must keep in mind, and its coverage and power by virtue of Protean are also something. Prediction is not a good argument to move something down, because it works both sides. Also, yes, Assault Vest does exist, but not many Pokemon are viable wielders of it barring Conkeldurr and Goodra, both of which are rather niche Pokemon. It has a great offensive movepool to pester a lot of offensive Pokemon, and this includes HP Fire for Ferrothorn and the like. In my opinion, Greninja's frailty isn't what keeps it out of A+; it's what keeps it out of S Rank.

Yes it does it's job ok, but when is it going to safely come in to do it's job? And Assault Vest Conk is not niche, it's actually alright and a viable team slot. Also you're forgetting stuff like Assault Vest Slowbro, or Kyube, or Heatran (don't knock it til you try it) or Azumaril, which fuck it over completely. Also with HP fire you have to forgo a slot used for Extrasensory or Dark Pulse, which is important for beating Aegislash and M-Venu, which gives it a sort of 4MSS, albeit not as badly as some others.

 

[sidakarya]

AV-Conk is honestly worse than it was four months ago, since it's collateral damage from everyone being fully prepared to break M-Venusaur. (Also Dark Pulse isn't really that great imo, I've not had occasion to use it anywhere tbh)

 

[Gary]

You're telling me I get to drop the BP staples before I leave? Hell yes!

Scoli will stay in B+. It wasn't in B+ because of BP, it was there for its offensive LO set as well as its decent SD passing set, which it can still do. It's a great Pokemon.

Zapdos was also not B+ simply because of BP. It's staying where it's at for now.

Smeargle is a pretty cool lead and it doesn't really need to drop because of BP tbh. I guess if people wanted to drop it for other reasons then that's fine. I don't think it should be in the same rank as Shuckle, because it's not nearly as good at getting up web and rocks like Shuckle is.

Vaporeon automatically goes to D because it is complete garbage in OU and it is only OU because of BP. All of its other sets are completely outclassed by something else or just aren't worth using in the meta.

Mr Mime is getting removed, because it makes the other D rank Pokemon look amazing now that BP chains are dead.

Espeon is going to C- for now. I would say it's not as useless as Vaporeon, at least for now unless the Deos get banned anytime soon. It's Dual Screens set is meh but not complete garbage. Still not enough to make it any higher though. It's just extremely niche, and to be honest the only Deo it can really take on is D, because Deo-S is commonly seen running Knock Off even on its lead sets.

Peace!

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

I didn't say it wasn't worse than it was a few months ago, but it's not niche, it's still viable somewhat.
And if no Dark Pulse, then you need to choose between U-turn, HP-Fire, or HP-Grass, one which you need to take down water types, and the other you need to take down ferro. Either way, something is going to wall you. That's not good.

 

[Jacks0n]

No gren shouldn't drop... It has insane speed, awesome coveredge and great power with protean that let it aniliahate offence and put in a ton of work in balance and even semi-stall. This thing is bloody amazing and so relevant in the meta atm and should not be dropped.

Also standard set is ice beam, hydro pump/surf, extrasensory and filler

 

[Srn]

Zapdos isn't really "excellent" by any means. It struggles to do much of anything tbh. I can't think of a single common Rocks setter that it beats, so as a Defogger it's not very good. It is weak to SR as well, which makes checking/countering flying types even harder for it. I've wanted Zapdos to move down for a while now regardless of BP but now this is a good chance to have it actually happen.

It loses to chomp, heatran, tyranitar, hippo (if carrying toxic), deo-d, deo-s, Lando-T (if stone edge), Lando (needs heavy sp. def investment to beat) Mamo, Clefable, and Terrak.
It beats ferro and skarm
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.
.
.
Zapdos is not that good

 

[skies]

Srn9130 - my responses in italics.

So heatran needs to run a subpar move to stand a chance against char-y (toxic is usually better to hit stuff, still hits talon bar Taunt talon).
Chansey is pressured incredibly by char-y (and its popular teammates, like pursuit sharp) as is, and it loses to one pokemon, which is also a mega.

When you only have two solid switch-ins to a mon, then yes, it is nigh uncounterable.

I didn't say that it wasn't, I was pointing out that neither of those are beaten by Char Y if used accordingly. And honestly, Toxic hurts M-Char Y just as much, as Heatran can stall it with Protect (if using Focus Blast), or merely switch. Earthquake does beat Heatran, i've acknowledged this.


They do not play the same role AT ALL lol
First off, one notable thing that wow char-y beats that wow char-x does not is LANDORUS. That's pretty damn huge.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 135-160 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Ofc you need rocks off the field, but that more or less applies to bulky wisp char-x as well.
and just because one of the most popular physical set-up sweepers, char-x, can't be burned, it doesn't mean burning as a whole is obsolete lol.
They both have different roles, and shouldn't really be compared.

Ok, so maybe I'm a bit off here, but why in god's name would you ever keep Char X in on a Landorus of all things? Is this trying to prove something, because:

• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 135-160 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO

it takes Psychic anyways. And, you're forgetting Sludge Wave, which is more powerful than Psychic:

• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 143-169 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 143-169 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

Sludge Wave is common on Landorus too, and it has a chance to 2HKO, so, what's your point here? And I never ever said that burning was bad, I said that Char X can't be burned, which decreases it a bit because of how amazing it is. Ofc Will-O-Wisp is never a bad thing (except on Flash Fire Pokmon ofc), but still not doing anything to Char X and letting it set up on you is just a big as deal as being KOed by Landorus. Dragon Claw 2HKOes it, leaving a dent before it goes down, and 252+ Char X's do even more and leave a very large dent before dying. Also, you can create mindgames pre-mega evolving because:

• 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 140+ SpD Charizard: 144-170 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So you're not 100% right on Landorus beating it pre-Mega Evolving. Also, you missed another thing, it commonly carries Rock Slide:

• 0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force burned Landorus Rock Slide vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 273-322 (83.7 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And while we're doing Rock Slide:

• 0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force burned Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 103-121 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO

Why did you even mention Landorus? Because M-Char Y can stay in? It can barely stay in out of fear of Rock Slide, Sludge Wave 2HKOes any set without HP investment, and Char X never stays in on it.

Mega venu straight counters azu, other grass/poisons, like amoong, do exceptionally well, although at +6 the counter list obviously goes down a lot lol. Azu has plenty of trouble with ferro, mega zor (unless cb waterfall), and skarm a bit too.

You are correct about Amoonguss, although it isn't too terribly common nowadays. However:

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 284-336 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 178-211 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 135-160 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

They all have a chance to be 2HKOed, I wouldn't call Pokemon Azumarill has trouble with, except for M-Zor, which can Bullet Punch it, but it still can't switch in.

Mega Mawile has to either use sub or SD, is incredibly slow, very reliant on sucker punch, and extremely suspectible to quick burns from things like rotom-w. Nothing can switch-in, yeah, but its not impossible to handle. Remember, you can play mindgames and all, but you actually have to win them. If you don't win these mindgames, you're usually put in a really crappy position, and the risk factor involved with being incredibly reliant on sucker punch is very unattractive.

It often uses Substitute in my experience, and it is super good at this, you have to kill its sub before getting to it, easing the mind game with Sucker Punch and allowing the use for Focus Punch to beat Steel-types. Substitute blocks the Will-O-Wisps, and Mawile does not stay in on things carrying it anyways. And you said it yourself, nothing can safely switch into it, proving again what I said. And to be completely honest, I don't rely on Sucker Punch when using M-Mawile, because Substitute / Play Rough / Fire Fang are all pretty much needed in my opinion, and I forgo Sucker Punch sometimes specifically for Focus Punch or Knock Off, which are both very useful. But yeah, Mawile lacks 'true counters' as well.

Mega Gyara 2hko'ing everything at +1 lelelelel Say hello to mah nigga chesnut
+1 192+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 160-190 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(88hp/192 att/4def/224speed is the spread that masterclass uses in his RMT, so for all intents and purposes, we're using his spread)

Not to mention Mach punch loom and conk give mega gyara a LOT of problems, and Azu must be weakened a great deal before sweeping too:
+1 192+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 238-280 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

besides, 2hko'ing everything at +1 isn't enough. Mega gyara often BARELY 2hko's stuff, and i've found its power to be a tad lacking personally. But this is just my personal opinion doesn't matter much.

Oh yeah, Chesnaught is a total bro! It totally needs more usage, but that's besides the point. 252+ is also used extremely often, and it has 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, but yeah, that's one thing. What Azumarill even run 252 HP nowadays lol?

• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's a significant amount of damage, and it can even switch into a CB Waterfall and begin setting up. Also, pre-mega evolving, it has Intimidate as well, so don't dismiss this at all. Even if it does barely 2HKO things, it's still a 2HKO, nonetheless. I find its power very overwhelming for my team, and that's my personal opinion, so I use one myself at times!

As for your comparison to char-x, in general sweepers are more threatening than wallbreakers imo. You can revenge kill wallbreakers and force them out, but there's no way to win against a sweeper in the correct situation. When you say its easy to revenge kill, i sorta agree, but here's the thing: That's not the problem. Many scarfers and deo-s can revenge char-x too, and that's a problem for it.
Wanna know the difference?
Char-y is a wallbreaker, and char-x is a sweeper. Both play different roles, do different things, have different answers, etc, etc. So please stop comparing them lol.

I guess I did get carried away in all this, so you are correct, they fulfill different roles. But, Mega Charizard X is very versatile, it has three main sets, whereas Mega Charizard Y has one with a tad of variation. All in all, I think they can be compared at times because they're base form is the same Pokemon, and you have to pick which one you want, which is debateable in itself. I think you make very many great points, and I like this post, but I still wholeheartedly agree with M-Char Y moving down to A Rank. If anyone even says A- I might flip some shit, it's good in A, which is not bad by any means.

 

[Rosen]

It loses to chomp, heatran, tyranitar, hippo (if carrying toxic), deo-d, deo-s, Lando-T (if stone edge), Lando (needs heavy sp. def investment to beat) Mamo, Clefable, and Terrak.
It beats ferro and skarm
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.
.
.
Zapdos is not that good

Zapdos beats Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Mandibuzz, and to say it loses to Hippo is just wrong when Zapdis also commonly carries toxic and the two can only stall each other to death.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

No gren shouldn't drop... It has insane speed, awesome coveredge and great power with protean that let it aniliahate offence and put in a ton of work in balance and even semi-stall. This thing is bloody amazing and so relevant in the meta atm and should not be dropped.

It's good against offense when it can come in, but when can it come in? How does it actually come in to do it's job safely? That's my main argument and nobody has refuted that yet.

 

[theV8man]

Zapdos beats Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Mandibuzz, and to say it loses to Hippo is just wrong when Zapdis also commonly carries toxic and the two can only stall each other to death.

Brelloom does beat Zapdos if it can put it to sleep then Rock Tomb.

 

[Rosen]

Brelloom does beat Zapdos if it can put it to sleep then Rock Tomb.

Rock Tomb is not very common on Breloom anymore, most forgo the coverage for Swords Dance and Mach Punch + Bullet Seed.

I suppose I should've said MOST variants of Breloom.

 

[Nog]

Rock Tomb is not very common on Breloom anymore

?_?

 

[Rosen]

?_?

Not that I've noticed

I've only battled one with Rock Tomb that I can remember recently

But I could be wrong, yes