np: Doubles Stage 3.5 — Mama Said Knock You Out

[Stratos]

thanks to srk1214 for the song suggestion =)

Somehow the stage threads always die when the suspect stage ends even though I keep them open for metagame discussion. So, I'm starting a new thread to fulfill this purpose instead. This is a catch-all thread; feel free to post anything (that isn't a shitpost) here. Post a team you've been working on, or a set you like, or how much you hate rain and need strategies to counter it. Typically once discussion hits a critical mass it'll go on its own, and I'm trying to find the critical for these metagame discussions that will actually make them stick, so shoot. It doesn't have to be insights about the meaning of life that would make Gandhi's jaw hit the floor.

The other purpose of this thread is to discuss possible suspects for future suspect round. This includes both bans and drops! In the past people who have suggested drops have mostly been mocked for it, but I promise to prevent that from happening this time, with my mod powers if need be. It's been three rounds with nothing getting banned, so it's not like we have anything better to do than let Yveltal in the metagame and see what the hell happens. And of course, if you want to discuss bans too, go for it. Just keep civil about it and don't go around in circles with your arguments, but Doubles suspect tests have been good about that in the past usually so I have faith in you guys.

ATTN: If you are requesting for a potential ban or drop for our next suspect, make sure you follow it with concrete and substantial "proof/evidence" to back your motion. Do NOT clutter this thread with "Xerneas is totally not broken, test plz." If you have nothing meaningful or convincing to back up your nomination, stick to discussing about the metagame - Pocket

 

[KyleCole]

we need to suspect kanga imo

 

[realiti]

I've been testing different teams with different Pokemon. I think nothing is really "broken" as the metagame is really balanced. I would like say, however, what I'm having fun with in this meta.

Recently I have been playing around with this Charizard X set, and when it comes out, it wrecks. The recoil is a bummer, but Flare Blitz is such a strong move and the rest of the moves give it coverage, offense protection. It also doesn't need much support other than Follow Me and/or Speed Control. I advise everyone to go try it out.

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Protect

I think Keldeo isn't given enough credit for what it can do. Life Orb Hydro Pump hits extremely hard, and can eventually can wear opponents down until they can't take another hit. Secret Sword hits SpD invested tanks, and also nails lots of types, including normal. Taunt or Quick Guard temporarily shuts down TR or priority. Protect is standard.

Keldeo @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Quick Guard
- Protect

Yeah I'll finish with these 2 Pokemon to get things going.

Here is the team I'm using if you're curious. It's all about trying to gain offensive momentum through switches and disrupting the opponent.

Hide

Teardrops (Charizard) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Protect

Sunset (Togekiss) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Follow Me
- Tailwind
- Air Slash
- Protect

Sunrise (Rotom-Wash) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 128 SAtk / 124 SDef / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

New Dawn (Shaymin-Sky) @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Substitute
- Protect

Memories (Aegislash) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
- Wide Guard
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon

New Light (Keldeo) @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Quick Guard
- Protect

The troublesome thing is that we can't drop anything without it being overcentralizing. Not picking on you AegisCave, but have considered how powerful Xerneas might be? With 131 SpA Fairy Aura at +2 it'll be insanely hard to counter where you're forced to run Jirachi or Aegislash on every team. After they're weakened Xerneas can sweep :p

The only thing I can see drop is Giratina but it'll wall 90% of the meta with insane bulk. It can stilll hit hard and not worth dropping.

What do you think should be dropped/banned is what I'm thinking about and I'd love to hear everyone's opinion.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Imo run Zygarde + Aegislash on every team; Zygarde's ability counters Fairy Aura and Aegislash shits on it as always.

Xerneas is totally no broken.

I haven't been playing too much Doubles as of late due to school + RU suspect test, though now that school's almost out and the suspect test is over, I should be able to start playing again soon haha. :]

EDIT: Just so everyone knows this was just a fun joke, not trying to come off as rude haha ^.^

 

[AegisCave]

I've been testing different teams with different Pokemon. I think nothing is really "broken" as the metagame is really balanced. I would like say, however, what I'm having fun with in this meta.

Recently I have been playing around with this Charizard X set, and when it comes out, it wrecks. The recoil is a bummer, but Flare Blitz is such a strong move and the rest of the moves give it coverage, offense protection. It also doesn't need much support other than Follow Me and/or Speed Control. I advise everyone to go try it out.

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Protect

I think Keldeo isn't given enough credit for what it can do. Life Orb Hydro Pump hits extremely hard, and can eventually can wear opponents down until they can't take another hit. Secret Sword hits SpD invested tanks, and also nails lots of types, including normal. Taunt or Quick Guard temporarily shuts down TR or priority. Protect is standard.

Keldeo @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Quick Guard
- Protect

Yeah I'll finish with these 2 Pokemon to get things going.

Here is the team I'm using if you're curious. It's all about trying to gain offensive momentum through switches and disrupting the opponent.

Hide

Teardrops (Charizard) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Protect

Sunset (Togekiss) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Follow Me
- Tailwind
- Air Slash
- Protect

Sunrise (Rotom-Wash) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 128 SAtk / 124 SDef / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

New Dawn (Shaymin-Sky) @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Substitute
- Protect

Memories (Aegislash) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
- Wide Guard
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon

New Light (Keldeo) @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Quick Guard
- Protect

The troublesome thing is that we can't drop anything without it being overcentralizing. Not picking on you AegisCave, but have considered how powerful Xerneas might be? With 131 SpA Fairy Aura at +2 it'll be insanely hard to counter where you're forced to run Jirachi or Aegislash on every team. After they're weakened Xerneas can sweep :p

The only thing I can see drop is Giratina but it'll wall 90% of the meta with insane bulk. It can stilll hit hard and not worth dropping.

What do you think should be dropped/banned is what I'm thinking about and I'd love to hear everyone's opinion.

Yeah, it took me about 5 seconds after posting that to realize how broken it would still be.
And even with the edit that post got deleted anyway ;-;

As for bans; outside of Kangaskhanite, in my play of Doubles I don't see basically any truly metagame-centralizing threats. (Even then, I will concur that Mega Kanga isn't totally broken). Perhaps it would be interesting to see some weaker Arceus formes drop, but even Bugceus seems pretty OP still. That, and allowing said formes would require some very complex bans. (So nvm on it then :x) Most Doubles-related bans seem to be Doubles UU related now, unless you want to just start banning things like Zard Y just to see how the metagame changes. (No more Rock Slide or loss)

Also, couple questions:
-For clarification: are drops simply for taking pokemon that aren't totally broken out of Ubers, or for adding new elements to the metagame? Or both? (The mention of Giratina is what sparked this)

 

[Electrolyte]

-For clarification: are drops simply for taking pokemon that aren't totally broken out of Ubers, or for adding new elements to the metagame? Or both? (The mention of Giratina is what sparked this)

I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say "adding new elements to the metagame," but yes, if we were to drop something, it would almost certainly be taking something out of Ubers (unless we decide to play around with more clauses.)


As for my own experiences, I am quite enjoying the increase in usage and experimentation of a new, wider variety of Mega Pokemon, particularly Mega Charizard X, as U-Turn pointed out, and Mega Gengar. I particularly like Mega Charizard X's surprise factor as well as its sometimes short but usually destructive power, and it can very easily sweep, tear holes / wall break, or just weaken the opponent beyond repair.

For shits and giggles, quickscopenoscope and I tried playing around with Sky Drop, and had interesting results. Sky Drop is great not only as an offensive strategy but also as a supportive strategy, able to temporarily "stun" an opponent and create optimal 1 v 1 matchups.

Also I'm seeing a lot less of Fake Out which is more of a personal pleasure because it's quite annoying, really.

 

[tofucocoa]

sky drop+mega zard x is something i like to toy with in vgc, and is the subject of a dubz team i theorymonned but never actually did anything with a few days ago. specifically, aerodactyl+charizardx. if you ev your zardx to be one point slower than aero after a boost, you can lift the opponent while you dragon dance and then attack them as they're dropped. this wouldn't be all that great if it weren't for the fact that the opponent can't protect, use priority or switch out when they're in the air, meaning you basically get a free gang attack on something. when playing it, sky drop allows me to make safer moves, like instead of wondering if that garchomp will protect/switch while i try to d-claw it, i can just sky drop that slot and attack the partner. aero also has wide guard and tailwind, and while forgoing rock slide probably isn't the best idea, you can still fit taunt or tailwind there too and make aero sorta kinda not really bulky.

other sky droppers aren't all that great/have better things to do but i think defiant thund is worth looking into. i saw a few of them on battle spot doubles when bank was first released and more recently in triples (although i'll fully admit that the trips ladder is very questionable, albeit super fun) and i've gotten spanked by them when running double intimidate/when i don't notice the ball and assume it's prankster. sky drop defiant thund seems like a great partner to kang, although it might struggle against the likes of scarf landog and you can't pup yourself when thund is in the air :( . (also thund/sky drop in triples is amazing for board positioning, which is pretty important there imo)

ALSO a fun gimmick you can try with sky drop is sky drop+no guard partner, and maybe thunder+sky drop although i'm not 100% sure that works but if it does that would be super neat!!!! (also i wonder if golurk can hit a mon in the air with EQ with this... lol)

 

[qsns]

For shits and giggles, quickscopenoscope and I tried playing around with Sky Drop

I play to win not to have fun you scrub

Sky Drop really is a nifty move to play around with, and Defiant Thundurus seems to pair really well with any setup physical sweeper like Mega Charizard X. While it's usually hard to get a Dragon Dance up on two opponents, when you have a 1v1 with the a chosen thing on the field, it can easily get up a Dragon Dance and proceed to sweep from there. Also, Amoonguss is a great partner to Sky Drop because Sky Drop can give it favorable matchups to spam Spore. imo, the move is underrated because there's only 3-4 good users.

EDIT: pls don't talk about dropping Lugia ever, CM/Roost/Aeroblast/Reflect destroys everything in its path. (252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 75-88 (18 - 21.1%))

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublescustomgame-131625375

Its speed and ridiculous bulk allows it to easily set up in the face of even Pokemon with super-effective attacks. It would be able to perform many roles, including Tailwind setter and Specs Attacker with Psycho Boost that would prove to be way too powerful for the Doubles metagame.

 

[AegisCave]

I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say "adding new elements to the metagame," but yes, if we were to drop something, it would almost certainly be taking something out of Ubers (unless we decide to play around with more clauses.)


As for my own experiences, I am quite enjoying the increase in usage and experimentation of a new, wider variety of Mega Pokemon, particularly Mega Charizard X, as U-Turn pointed out, and Mega Gengar. I particularly like Mega Charizard X's surprise factor as well as its sometimes short but usually destructive power, and it can very easily sweep, tear holes / wall break, or just weaken the opponent beyond repair.

For shits and giggles, quickscopenoscope and I tried playing around with Sky Drop, and had interesting results. Sky Drop is great not only as an offensive strategy but also as a supportive strategy, able to temporarily "stun" an opponent and create optimal 1 v 1 matchups.

Also I'm seeing a lot less of Fake Out which is more of a personal pleasure because it's quite annoying, really.

I guess what I meant was asking what was the intent of dropping a pokemon- I.e. skimming ubers for things that potentially may not be broken or selecting random things to drop just to see what they do to the meta (such as the Yveltal mention in the OP).

anyway:
I've been wondering lately if Perish Trapping should be nerfed. I haven't played with it a ton and I don't know its limitations entirely so much of this comes from speculation and from what I have observed. While it seems that basing an entire team around Perish Song is most certainly gimmicky (as going full perish trapping essentially requires you to give up most of your offense in exchange for guaranteeing a successful triple perish trap), simply having an element of it on your team allows you to basically guarantee yourself two almost-free kills with adequate support. If the opponent can find a turn to set up Perish Song without their trapper dying (which can be achieved in a number of ways- Follow Me, Fake Out, Sky Drop, TrickScarfing/Encoring a support move, a well-timed Wide Guard, even Fling+King's Rock) you basically have a single turn to KO their trapper in between double Protects (which can still be prevented using the methods listed above). And THEN you have to switch out safely after. With moves such as Sky Drop that already see use on teams without perish song and Disable on Mega Gengar itself (which can also be paired with things such as a fast/Prankster Encore user to render a Pokemon completely useless), it seems to me as though it's a relatively easy strategy to pull off, especially as it's often impossible to stop if you don't have two Pokemon on the field that are both capable of OHKOing Mega Gengar (as one is basically going to be shut down).

 

[realiti]

I guess what I meant was asking what was the intent of dropping a pokemon- I.e. skimming ubers for things that potentially may not be broken or selecting random things to drop just to see what they do to the meta (such as the Yveltal mention in the OP).

anyway:
I've been wondering lately if Perish Trapping should be nerfed. I haven't played with it a ton and I don't know its limitations entirely so much of this comes from speculation and from what I have observed. While it seems that basing an entire team around Perish Song is most certainly gimmicky (as going full perish trapping essentially requires you to give up most of your offense in exchange for guaranteeing a successful triple perish trap), simply having an element of it on your team allows you to basically guarantee yourself two almost-free kills with adequate support. If the opponent can find a turn to set up Perish Song without their trapper dying (which can be achieved in a number of ways- Follow Me, Fake Out, Sky Drop, TrickScarfing/Encoring a support move, a well-timed Wide Guard, even Fling+King's Rock) you basically have a single turn to KO their trapper in between double Protects (which can still be prevented using the methods listed above). And THEN you have to switch out safely after. With moves such as Sky Drop that already see use on teams without perish song and Disable on Mega Gengar itself (which can also be paired with things such as a fast/Prankster Encore user to render a Pokemon completely useless), it seems to me as though it's a relatively easy strategy to pull off, especially as it's often impossible to stop if you don't have two Pokemon on the field that are both capable of OHKOing Mega Gengar (as one is basically going to be shut down).

Perish Trap is a gimmick. If you want to get away from Perish Song, get a Taunter or Ghosts. Perish Song also heavily relies on team matchup. Remember, when you use the moves you mentioned you actually have to have them, which is 1 less trapper or PSer. The simple point is just that it's a gimmick that relies on team matchup. Someone else should explain. When you mention those moves they work for every mon that's much less gimmicky.
As a final note, if it is so good why isn't anyone using it?

 

[Electrolyte]

I've been thinking about this recently, and I would like to see some other input on this:

The ladder environment and tournament environment are very different. Matches between people from Smogon are usually more intense and feature more prediction than the average ladder match. Because of this, Smogon matches usually require more wellbuilt teams and team archetypes than the ladder matches do.

Thus, my question is: How does your teambuilding style differ when preparing to ladder in comparison to when preparing for a tournament match?

For myself, I usually emphasize more offensive support moves on my ladder teams. For instance, to counter the large amounts of spread spam teams at the bottom of the ladder, I think it is almost always necessary to carry one Wide Guard user. Quick Guard is another thing very much more common on my ladder teams than my competitive teams (though the difference is less in comparison to Wide Guard.) Fake Out as well, as few lower ladder players predict + respond to it correctly, but it can easily be punished by an experienced eye. That said, these three things are all very viable in higher leveled play, but I prefer not to use them because they are very easy to predict and in my opinion don't pay off as much as a different attack possibly could.

On my ladder teams, I also utilize many more high risk / high reward strategies, such as setup or Trick Room. Inexperienced players usually don't know how to properly combat these team types, and it is very easy to use them to turn the tide in my favor.

 

[AegisCave]

Perish Trap is a gimmick. If you want to get away from Perish Song, get a Taunter or Ghosts. Perish Song also heavily relies on team matchup. Remember, when you use the moves you mentioned you actually have to have them, which is 1 less trapper or PSer. The simple point is just that it's a gimmick that relies on team matchup. Someone else should explain. When you mention those moves they work for every mon that's much less gimmicky.
As a final note, if it is so good why isn't anyone using it?

Someone (KyleCole? I can't remember for sure) recently posted an RMT about a partial Perish trap team that apparently did very well, which is what made me think of it. I assume Perish Trap is a lot better in a VGC or Battle Spot environment but it still seemed worth mentioning.
It may be a gimmick but it seems a pretty powerful one, considering that Taunt is much less common (and that it must either be a Prankster or faster then Mega Gengar). Anyway.

 

[realiti]

I've been thinking about this recently, and I would like to see some other input on this:

The ladder environment and tournament environment are very different. Matches between people from Smogon are usually more intense and feature more prediction than the average ladder match. Because of this, Smogon matches usually require more wellbuilt teams and team archetypes than the ladder matches do.

Thus, my question is: How does your teambuilding style differ when preparing to ladder in comparison to when preparing for a tournament match?

For myself, I usually emphasize more offensive support moves on my ladder teams. For instance, to counter the large amounts of spread spam teams at the bottom of the ladder, I think it is almost always necessary to carry one Wide Guard user. Quick Guard is another thing very much more common on my ladder teams than my competitive teams (though the difference is less in comparison to Wide Guard.) Fake Out as well, as few lower ladder players predict + respond to it correctly, but it can easily be punished by an experienced eye. That said, these three things are all very viable in higher leveled play, but I prefer not to use them because they are very easy to predict and in my opinion don't pay off as much as a different attack possibly could.

On my ladder teams, I also utilize many more high risk / high reward strategies, such as setup or Trick Room. Inexperienced players usually don't know how to properly combat these team types, and it is very easy to use them to turn the tide in my favor.

tbh I never thought apout that question. I usually only build either Weather Teams or Bulky Offence teams. I usually bringWeather to the ladder unless I'm testing. Weather is easy to abuse and therefore wipe the opponent's team quicker. I usually have Wide Guard due to random Disquakes or Surf. Higher level play probably Bulky Offense because everyone knows Weather tricks and I'm much better with BO. Most of my teams have Skymin or Togekiss so that's nice for lower ladder. And yes, most lower ladder don't switch so it's an easy win (unless you get haxed)

 

[AuraRayquaza]

Electrolyte. You raise a good point with the higher level / ladder play. I definteley see my teambuilding differ between the two.

For ladder play, i usually use either rain offense with poli / ludicolo / terrakion / a steel type / a dragon type / filler, as this makes for quick and easy games which are hard to lose on the dubs ladder. I either use this or i just stick mega kanga with one of its common lead partners and 4 offensive pokes. Offense just does better on the ladder because many of the teams you face are frail, bad pokes (espeon a prime example) that are wrecked quickly.

In tournament play, and im sure a couple of people can attest to this (Pwnemon), i build way more defensive teams. By that i dont mean stall, just much bulkier and much more passive in dealing with threats (intimidate scrafty to deal with terrakion rather than latios). I honestly dont know why i like this style more than offense in tournaments, i just seem to play better with it. It helps that mega kanga is not seen that often in tournament play, as defensive / passive play struggles with kanga.

 

[Haruno]

Thus, my question is: How does your teambuilding style differ when preparing to ladder in comparison to when preparing for a tournament match?

ladder = sylveon spam or heat wave spam. Ez wins.
Better players depend on the person and what their respective playstyles are.

 

[Stratos]

I play to win not to have fun you scrub

Sky Drop really is a nifty move to play around with, and Defiant Thundurus seems to pair really well with any setup physical sweeper like Mega Charizard X. While it's usually hard to get a Dragon Dance up on two opponents, when you have a 1v1 with the a chosen thing on the field, it can easily get up a Dragon Dance and proceed to sweep from there. Also, Amoonguss is a great partner to Sky Drop because Sky Drop can give it favorable matchups to spam Spore. imo, the move is underrated because there's only 3-4 good users.

Sky Drop Thundurus does strike me as an interesting set. It gets all the setup help of a bisharp in preventing intimidate with the added help of a pseudo-fake out that you can use over and over. with its high speed, it can sky drop before most things can move. Perhaps a set of sky drop / superpower / wild charge / protect? the only problem i can see is its kinda low damage output w/o a defiant boost but hey it still beats aerodicktail. I definitely want to try this out sometime alongside a Kangaskhan or Charizard X. If anyone else has, pls replays

Perish Trap is a gimmick. If you want to get away from Perish Song, get a Taunter or Ghosts. Perish Song also heavily relies on team matchup. Remember, when you use the moves you mentioned you actually have to have them, which is 1 less trapper or PSer. The simple point is just that it's a gimmick that relies on team matchup. Someone else should explain. When you mention those moves they work for every mon that's much less gimmicky.
As a final note, if it is so good why isn't anyone using it?

whoa why the invective. seriously calm down lol

AegisCave i think you're thinking of champetero's semi-perish trap team. Perish trap is legitimately scary, but simply has not managed to impress me to the point of calling it broken. Gengar is simply too frail to effectively pull off the role of trapper in my opinion, though his ability to force basically 2v1 matchups when used well is incredibly strong. beating gengar is mostly a case of not playing into its hands by bringing out stuff like Amoonguss, etc. until it's dead.

as for dropping pokemon, perhaps my op gave the wrong impression. When we drop-test something it should be with the intention of hopefully permanently unbanning it and adding it to the metagame. as of now i cant think of any pokemon i'd feel comfortable testing in the doubles OU environment, though if someone can make a case for one then i'd totally be open to it.

 

[realiti]

Yeah sorry I never meant it harsh
Does unbanning Clauses seem appealing? I'm not sure if the meta will become luck based, however.

 

[tofucocoa]

i think you're thinking of champetero's semi-perish trap team. Perish trap is legitimately scary, but simply has not managed to impress me to the point of calling it broken. Gengar is simply too frail to effectively pull off the role of trapper in my opinion, though his ability to force basically 2v1 matchups when used well is incredibly strong. beating gengar is mostly a case of not playing into its hands by bringing out stuff like Amoonguss, etc. until it's dead.

this is probably a dumb question but how do you/should you play against mega gengar if you have reason to believe it's a m-gengar team, or at least one that supports it well? i have my own ideas (i guess darks/taunters/etc) but as far as i know nobody's really explained how to approach it outside of 'don't fake it out with kang u dum shit'.

 

[realiti]

this is probably a dumb question but how do you/should you play against mega gengar if you have reason to believe it's a m-gengar team, or at least one that supports it well? i have my own ideas (i guess darks/taunters/etc) but as far as i know nobody's really explained how to approach it outside of 'don't fake it out with kang u dum shit'.

usually I play more risky with switches. Darks are great since most run bomb>blast and can KO it. Speed Control works because MGar relies on Speed to KO or cripple opponents so if you outspeed it's easier to handle especially with its fraility. Stuff like TWave or Tailwind works wonders. Pokemon that have enough bulk to take a hit and deal heavy damage work like Lando-T

 

[Stratos]

this is probably a dumb question but how do you/should you play against mega gengar if you have reason to believe it's a m-gengar team, or at least one that supports it well? i have my own ideas (i guess darks/taunters/etc) but as far as i know nobody's really explained how to approach it outside of 'don't fake it out with kang u dum shit'.

mostly its a game of keeping offensive pokemon in all the time to prevent it from coming in. Most teams have 4+ pokemon that don't mind gengar; if you can keep it from coming in on the 2 that do, you're safe. As long as you can hit it for neutral, it's going to take a lot of damage.

for example i have a team that is terrak / talon / thund / gyara / amoong / exca. as long as i don't bring in amoonguss, gengar has trouble coming in. if it comes in on amoonguss, my opponent basically has two free KOes. I just need to maintain pressure until my opponent's team is too fucked to use gengar.

another team i have is lando / cress / heatran / scizor / amoonguss / rotomw. Again, all of these but amoonguss can deal decent damage to gengar, so i won't send him in at all. For the rest, i just need to avoid walking into a setup where i'm trapped by gengar against something that can tackle me. for example, i can't have in cress and scizor if the opponent has a volcarona because he can switch in gengar, trap, and kill scizor with volc while protecting with gengar.

it's gengar's ability to so firmly control what you can send in like this which makes some people call for its banning—because you can't slip out of these tough matchups like with other pokes—but overall i don't believe that it has ENOUGH good matchups to pull its weight in every or even most matches so i don't think it's banworthy.

did that make sense?

edit @ u-turn out: i dont really like the idea of testing any of the other clauses. sleep clause was the only one that wasn't there to ban a luck-based element, and fuck hax. the only thing i might be open to is removing sand veil and snow cloak bans

 

[termi]

edit @ u-turn out: i dont really like the idea of testing any of the other clauses. sleep clause was the only one that wasn't there to ban a luck-based element, and fuck hax. the only thing i might be open to is removing sand veil and snow cloak bans

why would you want to remove sand veil and snow cloak bans, these abilities are the very epitome of hax

 

[Audiosurfer]

ok guys, got a mon i'd like to see discussed for a future test. was talkin with Pwnemon the other day and he mentioned that Dialga, and after some thought I think it'd make a good candidate for a test for a few reasons:

• Adds variety to the tier - Right now there aren't really any good Trick Room setters beyond Cress and (somewhat) Aromatisse. Dialga would help solve this since it can use Trick Room effectively, increasing team variety, which is only beneficial to the tier. In addition to this, good Trick Roomers serve to deter the spamming of teams that simply slap together fast & powerful mons, allowing other team types to thrive. Also, its unique typing and nice movepool would make it a very cool addition to the teambuilding pool.
• Do't need to go out of way to check - While Dialga is bulky, it's weak to Ground- and Fighting-type attacks, which are both fairly common. Its Steel typing also removes its resistance to Fire, another common type due to the rise of Mega Charizard Y. Don't let its Special Attack fool you either, its power level isn't something the tier couldn't already handle (in sun a Fire Blast frmo Timid Zard outdamages a Draco Meteor from Modest Dialga by a good portion). Also, its base 90 Speed leaves it getting outsped by a large portion of the tier, notable Landorus-T (by one point ;-;). In addition, it lacks any form of recovery (besides ChestoRest) so you could wear it down over the course of a match too. Really, ll the tools you need to handle Dialga are things the majority of teams already carry (or at least should).

i could go on but i'd rather hear what some other people think on this first before continuing the discussion

 

[Hashtag]

The first problem i have with unbanning Dialga is its flawless special movepool in accordance with 150 special attack. Its got special moves with 100% accuracy and 80+ BP in fight, steel, fire, electric, ice, dragon, ground, and rock. here are some calcs showing what an offensive monster it would be, even without a boosting item. I've left out some obvious ones like ice beam ohkoing Landorus.

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252+ SpA Dialga Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 214-252 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dialga Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 214-252 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dialga Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 204-240 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dialga Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 170-200 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Dialga Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 206-244 (63.5 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Dialga Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 288-340 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HK
252+ SpA Dialga Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dialga Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Dialga Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 210-248 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Dialga Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-B: 390-458 (99.7 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Dialga Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 222-262 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dialga Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 314-372 (103.9 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 220-261 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 178-211 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You can see that Dialga 2HKO's almost the entire metagame depending on its moveset. the only thing it can't get is cresselia! But thats not where the fun ends, Dialga has an amazing ability in Telepathy, which you don't see too much because nothing else decent has it. However, it is one of the most ace abilities in doubles, right up there with intimidate. Telepathy allows you to run a teammate with spread moves which would normally hurt your teammates, but they dont hurt Dialga.

This means that you are free to run hyper-offensive teams with earthquake, discharge, surf, fuckin lava plume, and anything else you can think of, while Dialga sits there and snipes anything that survives these attacks.

I would say that if we suspected Dialga we would quickly find out that it was 2 Stronk 2 handel.

 

[Bughouse]

No. If we're going to drop an Uber it should be something much less influential. Palkia seems to fit that bill the best.

100 Speed puts it in direct competition with several common threats. Palkia's bulk is good but not great and it lacks the wide swath of resistances Dialga has. It's very strong to be sure but also less overwhelming than Char-Y or MKanga. In Rain, the best way to make it a nuke, it faces competition from all the Swift Swimmers, particularly Kingdra who can run Muddy Water and is blazingly fast.

It doesn't get any game breaking dubs moves like Muddy Water or Tailwind. It'd be a bad user of Trick Room unlike Dialga. Basically Palkia would just run 3 Attacks + Protect Lustrous Orb/Sitrus Berry set or an Assault Vest/Choiced set and wouldn't drastically shake up anything nearly as much as Dialga would by vastly improving Trick Room.

 

[qsns]

No. If we're going to drop an Uber it should be something much less influential. Palkia seems to fit that bill the best.
100 Speed puts it in direct competition with several common threats. Palkia's bulk is good but not great and it lacks the wide swath of resistances Dialga has. It's very strong to be sure but also less overwhelming than Char-Y or MKanga. In Rain, the best way to make it a nuke, it faces competition from all the Swift Swimmers, particularly Kingdra who can run Muddy Water and is blazingly fast.

It doesn't get any game breaking dubs moves like Muddy Water or Tailwind. It'd be a bad user of Trick Room unlike Dialga. Basically Palkia would just run 3 Attacks + Protect Lustrous Orb/Sitrus Berry set or an Assault Vest/Choiced set and wouldn't drastically shake up anything nearly as much as Dialga would by vastly improving Trick Room.

Water/Dragon is an absolutely fantastic typing, and it's coupled with some amazing stats. Comparing it to Kingdra doesn't do any justice, considering Palkia's special attack is 55 POINTS HIGHER, much better bulk, and a great speed tier outside of rain. Its signature item, the Lustrous Orb, gives it a near-Life Orb boost to its STAB moves without being compromised by the HP loss. Telepathy allows it to avoid your ally's spread moves and snipe off the targets who survive. Palkia would take an already great playstyle and give it a nuke that doesn't get taken down easily. Honestly, with the lack of exploitable weaknesses Palkia has, I'd rather quit the tier than play in a metagame with Palkia.