Damn... Hopefully ORAS fixes that
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Pokémon Hawlucha
- Thread starter Molk
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You hardly need to one-shot Chansey, as it isn't really Hawlucha's business to switch into it in the first place. The threat of catching T-wave on the switch in just makes it plain not worth it. If you're playing Hawlucha as a BPer, you're going to have a SD under your belt before facing any walls. Hawlucha's niche is that its unboosted STABs are just strong enough, and it's just fast enough, to be able to force the switches it needs to grab those SD boosts, and its coverage is good enough with just those moves to make it a risky proposition to switch into. Scolipede has a lot of distinct advantages, but its inferior coverage means that it can't cover all of the more offensively orientated Pokemon who might look to switch in against it.
Hawlucha threatens NOTHING without any boosts. At least Talonflame can run a Band and has the strongest unboosted priority in OU, which makes it an excellent revenge killer.
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 518-612 (73.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 548-648 (77.8 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 378-446 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not much can OHKO that same base 5 defense Pokemon with a super effective move dude. Chansey also has 250, which an average of 127.5. Obviously damage isn't calculated by averages, but HP counts too.
Also if you're using Hawlucha to break walls, then 1. You're going to already have a swords dance up and 2. You're using a completely outclassed Pokemon.
Sky Attack has a 43% chance to OHKO Megasaur without a boost, and Chansey and Ferrothorn aside, just about any fighting weak Pokemon in OU gets taken out by High Jump Kick with or without the +2. That includes, but isn't limited to, Bisharp, Excadrill, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, Heatran, Kyurem-B, Terrakion, Diggersby, and Mamoswine. Hawlucha is faster than that entire crowd, and has switch in opportunities, albeit risky ones, against all of them. Of the offensive Pokemon in OU, the only commonly used Pokemon that are faster risk being OHKOed on the switch by one of Hawlucha's attacks, with the exception of Thundurus, who still risks being 2HKOed if he switches into Sky Attack with rocks up.
It's hardly a fantastic Pokemon in OU, requiring a buttload of support, and good prediction, but it performs a rather different function than Scolipede-lite.
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Do keep in mind that Sky Attack is a one-time-bomb. When is Game Freak adding an ability that negates the charge time for attacks for the wielder?
I'd just like to point out that calc only pertains to Specially defensive / Offensive Mega Venu. Physically defensive will be 2HKOed by Acrobatics, but is still capable of dealing some pretty hefty damage with Sludge Bomb.
Solving the Aegislash problem, Unburden+Dark Plate+Fling, a dark move powered up by dark plate giving him a speed boost, finish up with acrobatics, if that didn't work switch out with u-turn for some extra damage, got to make some calcs but seems like the counter way to go
You lose the Unburden boost if you switch out and Aegislash can just King's Shield you as you try to finish with Acrobatics. There's also the problem of having to predict perfectly to even hit it; you mispredict what switches in to you and you've lost your only chance to sweep.
Hawlucha@(No Item)
EV's: 252 Attack/200 Spe/56 HP
Trait: Limber
Jolly Nature
-Swords Dance
-High Jump Kick
-Acrobatics
-Stone Edge
Most people opt to run Unburden for obvious reasons, but this set takes aim at not having to deal with Prankster T-wave from Thundurus while also being able to cause big damage to it and Zapdos, which wall its STAB moves. Since the Flying Gem won't be out until at least ORAS, this variant ops for having no item to ensure Acrobatics is always a base 110 STAB move. It's EV's are tailored so that it outspeeds max speed Thundurus everytime. I would have made Hawlucha to outspeed base 115's but in OU, they aren't that popular, like Starmie and Raikou. 252 Attack EV's for obvious reasons and the final 56 EV's get dumped in bulk. In theory, I feel like this set should do well. Some of the things that still threaten Hawlucha are Talonflame and M-Pinsir thanks to their priority flying moves, ghost types due to HJK recoil, and any physical walls that can take a +2 attack pretty easily and OHKO back like Skarmory. Obviously, 'lucha needs that team support, but I believe a set like this can work surprisingly well.
EV's: 252 Attack/200 Spe/56 HP
Trait: Limber
Jolly Nature
-Swords Dance
-High Jump Kick
-Acrobatics
-Stone Edge
Most people opt to run Unburden for obvious reasons, but this set takes aim at not having to deal with Prankster T-wave from Thundurus while also being able to cause big damage to it and Zapdos, which wall its STAB moves. Since the Flying Gem won't be out until at least ORAS, this variant ops for having no item to ensure Acrobatics is always a base 110 STAB move. It's EV's are tailored so that it outspeeds max speed Thundurus everytime. I would have made Hawlucha to outspeed base 115's but in OU, they aren't that popular, like Starmie and Raikou. 252 Attack EV's for obvious reasons and the final 56 EV's get dumped in bulk. In theory, I feel like this set should do well. Some of the things that still threaten Hawlucha are Talonflame and M-Pinsir thanks to their priority flying moves, ghost types due to HJK recoil, and any physical walls that can take a +2 attack pretty easily and OHKO back like Skarmory. Obviously, 'lucha needs that team support, but I believe a set like this can work surprisingly well.
I haven't been following the suspect test, but Hawlucha could have some increased viability if Aegislash gets booted. :O
You'll need to make sure Thundurus, Klefki, Talonflame, Scizor, Azumarill, Clefable, Quagsire, Ferrothorn, Manectric, Lando-T, Mawile, Gyarados, Skarmory, and Hippowdon are gone before you can sweep. Then you need to find time to actually set up, so good luck with that.
Increased viability, not total viability. lol
When the Flying Gem is released, I suppose Stone Edge will replace Sky Attack and we can use Flying Gem Acrobatics. Come on ORAS, give it to us!
most of those things don't even beat hawlucha
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 375-442 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 440-518 (125 - 147.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 304-358 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 331-391 (117.7 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 255-300 (60.7 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and uh oh, this pokemon has other pokemon that can beat it; must be shit!
The point is that list is fucking huge and you have a hard time setting up (you can't even force out fucking Chansey if it's healthy, letting it T-Wave/Toxic you).
I mentioned Ferrothorn because some run Protect, making HJK fail and putting you into revenge range for some weaker priority, and Hippowdon can just Whirlwind you out and remove your Unburden boost (and thus you chance to sweep).
Which reminds me, add Dragonte and lol Arcanine to the list.
The point is that it's a bad list. Half the things on it do not even check. Mega Mawile is OHKO'ed at +2 and can only do 30-40% in return with Sucker Punch. Mega Manectric has no priority, is outsped and OHKO'ed. Azumarill gets OHKO'ed and can do 30-40% in return with Aqua Jet. Lando-T avoids an OHKO, but the best it can do in return is 60% from Stone Miss. Gyarados is is OHKO'ed if rocks are up. If they aren't, it avoids an OHKO but can't OHKO in return. Ferrothorn can protect but it's a prediction game, because it risks letting Hawlucha get in another Swords Dance instead. Dragonite can revenge if Hawlucha is under 75% HP, but only if it has max HP. If it suffers any previous damage, or if rocks are up, Hawlucha OHKOs. Scizor gets OHKOed, and can manage 60% in return with Bullet Punch, and Thundurus can paralyze, but will have to sacrifice itself to do so.
Having priority does NOT a check make.
Several of the things I listed have Intimidate, and you're assuming Hawlucha is at +2 when it has a hard time setting up in the first place (you're not removing your item for Unburden and setting up at the same time and killing something lets your opponent send out their check for free).
Iight so let me break this list down:
Azumarrill, Thundurus, Talonflame, Scizor, non-defensive Clefable, Mawile, Ferrothorn, and Gyarados can't freely switch in at will. They either get hit super effectively or have a pretty solid chance of being 2HKO'd by the appropriate move (after SR).
Klefki is irrelevant as fuck so I wouldn't even worry about it.
Manectric can switch in once and force out Hawlucha, but after that, it can't take another HJK.
Quagsire can't do jack shit to Hawlucha and has to pray for a burn while it sets up on it if it doesn't have Unaware.
defensive Clefable, Lando-T, Skarmory, and Hippowdon are what I would deem big defensive problems for Hawlucha. Something like Char-Y could probably take care of them if need be.
Azumarrill, Thundurus, Talonflame, Scizor, non-defensive Clefable, Mawile, Ferrothorn, and Gyarados can't freely switch in at will. They either get hit super effectively or have a pretty solid chance of being 2HKO'd by the appropriate move (after SR).
Klefki is irrelevant as fuck so I wouldn't even worry about it.
Manectric can switch in once and force out Hawlucha, but after that, it can't take another HJK.
Quagsire can't do jack shit to Hawlucha and has to pray for a burn while it sets up on it if it doesn't have Unaware.
defensive Clefable, Lando-T, Skarmory, and Hippowdon are what I would deem big defensive problems for Hawlucha. Something like Char-Y could probably take care of them if need be.
Calculations against Gyarados and Lando-T assumed Intimidate, giving Hawlucha a +1 attack. I use Hawlucha regularly, and have never had difficulty in getting to +2.
I never said any could switch in, I said you needed them dead before you could sweep. Offensive teams can and will sac something if they need to.
Azumarill's Choice Band Aqua Jet does more than 50% to you and leaves you open for something else.
Thundurus can actually counter and T-Wave you since you only OHKO with High Jump Kick at +2 and with SR up.
Sky Attack only has a 25% Chance to OHKO Banded Talonflame (Bulk Up sets switch in, scare you out, and get a free turn of set up)
Scizor can survive a +2 High Jump Kick (almost all Megas run defensive EVs) and 2HKO with an unboosted Bullet Punch.
All Clefable are defensive. It's just a matter of whether or not it's Unaware (and if it is Unaware it will set up in front of you).
Mawile has Intimidate before MEvoing, survives any +1 hit, and will always OHKO you.
Ferrothorn might have Protect and Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs puts you into revenge range easily.
Gyarados can actually switch in immediately Sky Attack does 42% max at -1 and Waterfall does up to 70% if Gyarados is Adamant.
Klefki has Prankster T-Wave and is relevant enough to be noted. It's actually a counter, btw.
Manectric only needs to force you out once since you're super dependent on Unburden to sweep.
All Quagsire run Unaware and it's practically mandatory on Stall X_X
The way you'e talking about Hawlucha, you're making it seem like it only has one viable set. Unburden seems like its best ability on paper, but its fast enough to not need that boost to sweep late game, especially since things have been shifting towards more of a priority-driven metagame. That means it can utilize one of its other abilities like Limber. Because of that, Hawlucha doesn't need to worry about any Prankster T-waves. Priority users are what stands in the way of Hawlucha, and the only one that OHKO's is Talonflame. However, Talonflame gets mauled by Stone Edge, so does Thundurus, and Gyarados takes a decent chunk and has a difficult time deciding whether to Mega evolve or stay in base form. Not only that, Gyara gets 2HKO'd after SR. Yea Ferrothon might have protect but that'll be figured out during the game and can be used to the advantage of the Hawlucha player and might be able to snag another SD. Klefki isn't a counter whatsoever lol. Limber prevents paralysis and if it only runs Foul Play then it can't do much damage at all. If Mawile already Mega evolved, than it gets 2HKO'd by HJK.
The only thing that has changed my opinion is the Mega Scizor mention. That only adds to the fact Char-Y would be able to handle the things Hawlucha needs out of its way to do its job. I will also admit a lot of situations are dependent on who needs to switch in and who is already in. Obviously both of us are going to bring up situations that best support our arguments, but in the end Hawlucha does have a couple tricks up its sleeves to get by most of the things you mentioned.
Running Limber opens up a whole new can of worms when it comes to checks, since you lose your only reliable way of boosting speed and you now have to make the choice of running Jolly to make up for it or Adamant.
Since the first thing your opponent is going to do to deal with Hawlucha is send out a Thundy, they'll know that they can safely send out something faster than Base 103 Speed (which Adamant Hawlucha has the equivalent of) after they fail to Paralyze you, send in a Scarfer/Greninja (Greninja always beats you) to safely revenge you, or even a health set-up sweeper than can survive a boosted High Jump Kick/Stone Edge (like Gyarados) and counter-sweep you. You also now have to deal with anything that's faster than you before you can sweep and make sure your opponent doesn't have any Scarfers like Excadrill, Garchomp, Kyurem-B, and the rare Keldeo and Terrakion, increasing the amount of support you need by a lot.
Also, Zard Y needs like 2-3 other teammates for support to function optimally (a Pursuit Trapper, a Defogger/Spinner, and maybe Hippowdon to reset weather and deal with some of its checks). Magnezone might be a better answer for Scizor and even Clefable with Magnet Pull and Steel-STAB, respectively.
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