We kind of already had that issue with pre-bank and post bank. Also plenty of new ppl have no clue what suspect test ou is.
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Survey Discussing Future Tiering Policy
- Thread starter Chou Toshio
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Pokebank was a hypothetical meta though, like Dream World BW, and in fact was the more popular one.
Uh, no we don't, we test the broken things in a more efficient pace, because not all mega evolutions are broken to that degree.
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Those were both temporary situations with one clearly being the main competitive ladder and one clearly designed for a specific purpose (or in pre-bank's case, for the sake of accuracy). I'm confident this suggested split would reach a similar point, but there's things to be considered, like how long it'd take to reach that point and if it's worth it if standard (though hopefully accelerated) testing could do the job as well.
Lol, that's just lazy and misdirected. If we're going to do a mass ban, then we should clearly do the one Tomahawk suggested, or something similar, not one suggested by some genwunner (or gen3 fanboy or whatever you are) who has an unfounded problem with the new big thing.
Besides, save the OU tier? It's already infinitely better than it was last gen, so our net production is already safe. I vote we tread lightly and avoid unnecessary changes, but I'd love to hear why we'd go another direction, as long as the reasons are actually well thought out.
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This was a nice survey, I'm just wondering if the demographics makes a vote caster more or less relevant.
In terms of this possible test list, the only issue I see what point of view the opinions are coming from.
What I mean is, for example, something like Excadrill to a stall player doesn't mean much of anything compared to a person who plays Offense.
How exactly are the results of this survey going to be interpreted? Are some votes going more than others? Is my high 1900+ ladder ranking going to matter more than somebody else who possibly doesn't ladder?
In terms of this possible test list, the only issue I see what point of view the opinions are coming from.
What I mean is, for example, something like Excadrill to a stall player doesn't mean much of anything compared to a person who plays Offense.
How exactly are the results of this survey going to be interpreted? Are some votes going more than others? Is my high 1900+ ladder ranking going to matter more than somebody else who possibly doesn't ladder?
Sergeant Spooky
I'll start by saying that I was part of the minority who wanted Drizzle banned in BW.
Yeah I'm aware of the damage calcs, the problem is that Kingdra is, exactly that, just one pokemon, they are stuff like Ferrothorn who can easily check him, the mega evolutions, however? How many are they? Mega Mawile who can ohko skarmory, the premier phys. wall in the metagame with a move who isn't even part of its STAB? Backed by perhaps the best type in the game? Garchomp while losing speed still gains a great chunk of attack and bulk, now with sand force can spam powerful Earthquakes around.
Houndoom is more like a case of being "outclassed" by other megas, DDMegaTyranitar, Bulky SDZOR who can set up easily on a pletora of pokemons on balanced teams, the two charizards... not only unpredictable, but with powerful stats and ability to back 'em up, Pinsir at +2 can easily ohko Gliscor, one of the premier physical wall with Stealth Rocks support (still has a chance withouth srs) Mega Gyarados, gaining additional (as if it wasn't enough) bulk, attack, and ability who allows him to screw its would-be counter (Rotom-w) what guarantee do we have that ORAS will introduce us "balanced" megas?
They are a broken concept
sidakarya
Really? Personal concept, do you seriously find normal how much power do they actually weild in the tier? it's the same as "you can use one broken legendary like Kyogre, Groudon, Arceus, Giratina and so on per team, but beware, my friend, you can only use one, choose well!"
Kairyu_Gen1
I believe this is actually the problem, Smogon never cared to seem "cool" to the casual player, when they were suspect testing dp they're only purpouse was to create a balanced, competitive metagame, and lo and behold, the majority of Smogonites believe that DP is more balanced than BW or the actual XY, do we really want to give up "Quality" over "Quantity"?
I'll start by saying that I was part of the minority who wanted Drizzle banned in BW.
Yeah I'm aware of the damage calcs, the problem is that Kingdra is, exactly that, just one pokemon, they are stuff like Ferrothorn who can easily check him, the mega evolutions, however? How many are they? Mega Mawile who can ohko skarmory, the premier phys. wall in the metagame with a move who isn't even part of its STAB? Backed by perhaps the best type in the game? Garchomp while losing speed still gains a great chunk of attack and bulk, now with sand force can spam powerful Earthquakes around.
Houndoom is more like a case of being "outclassed" by other megas, DDMegaTyranitar, Bulky SDZOR who can set up easily on a pletora of pokemons on balanced teams, the two charizards... not only unpredictable, but with powerful stats and ability to back 'em up, Pinsir at +2 can easily ohko Gliscor, one of the premier physical wall with Stealth Rocks support (still has a chance withouth srs) Mega Gyarados, gaining additional (as if it wasn't enough) bulk, attack, and ability who allows him to screw its would-be counter (Rotom-w) what guarantee do we have that ORAS will introduce us "balanced" megas?
They are a broken concept
sidakarya
Really? Personal concept, do you seriously find normal how much power do they actually weild in the tier? it's the same as "you can use one broken legendary like Kyogre, Groudon, Arceus, Giratina and so on per team, but beware, my friend, you can only use one, choose well!"
Kairyu_Gen1
I believe this is actually the problem, Smogon never cared to seem "cool" to the casual player, when they were suspect testing dp they're only purpouse was to create a balanced, competitive metagame, and lo and behold, the majority of Smogonites believe that DP is more balanced than BW or the actual XY, do we really want to give up "Quality" over "Quantity"?
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
I'm choking in vomit after reading this post. Have you ever even used mega evolutions? You sound like a whiny three year old in this post, and you sound like you haven't ever used a mega evolution in your life and you haven't used a single good team on the ladder. you shouldn't sit here and use a view that is obviously that of somebody who hasn't sat down and truly diagnosed teambuilding, rather than throwing together a bunch of good pokes and thinking they should be good together.
Who cares if they are more powerful than weather? it doesn't matter - whatever is broken is the problem. just because flare blitz at +1 from charizard X outdamages keldeo's hydro pump in the rain doesn't make it broken; broken attacks are broken, not amounts of damage. high damage output does not make something broken at all.
A coinflip with speed tiers? are you KIDDING me? what are you talking about? you are acting like speed tiers are all the same and revenge killers don't exist. WHAT ARE THEY FOR? i dont even think i need to say anything about this because unless i am mistaken this is just plain stupid.
Weather did not have to be banned from OU. Baton pass didnt even have to be banned in OU FFS. stuff like TTar + excadrill and only that as a core is not anywhere near broken, and this gen has so many problems it doesnt matter.
Here is a list of mega evolutions and why none of them are broken and all of them can easily be countered in the metagame. and don't say "mega evolutions are unbalanced" because so are any pokemon that are high end threats in ANY tier.
Charizard X: depending on coverage, it is walled by heatran and azumarill, both A rank pokes (azu A+), and is revenge killed by scarf excadrill, scarf keld, scarfchomp, terrakion, etc. you can also PREVENT THE THING FROM SETTING UP.
Charizard Y: Almost anything faster than it can kill it, as well as common priority. while it is threatening to slower teams, so is anything with base 100 speed that hits hard. charizard Y also suffers from an extreme lack of coverage due to focus miss
Mega Tyranitar: While a powerful win condition, if it doesn't set up its not that potent a sweeper. fighting types, scarfs, sand rush excadrill are all quick checks if it does get to +1. hint hint DONT LET IT GET TO +2.
Mega Mawile: Burns. flat out, burns. and pokes that resist dark, really, since it is near reliant on sucker punch. i use it and its amazing, but if there is a sucker punch resist that can kill me i don't bring it in.
you see where i'm going? no ban is necessary on pokemon that just arent broken, the broken pokes will be taken out of the equation, but if it was just a tyranitar evolution that couldnt hold an item rather than a mega evolution i'm sure we would not be having this conversation at all.
Lol, how is mega evolution the problem? The survey listed 14 pokes worthy of potential suspect recognition, but only 7 were megas. Megas are just some classification of pokemon with a unique element, but that is not even close to the breaking factor of those 7. If they're broken, we'll get to them, but we're not going to do something stupid like ban Alakazamite for Lucarionite's brokeness.
The fact that none of those 14 were quickbanned means they all have arguments for staying. If they were all to be suspected, I'm reasonably confident a decent number would be allowed to remain. What you're suggesting makes absolutely no sense.
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Hypercut: Drizzleswim is pretty unfair to compare to megas, as that was worse by far. Imagine, if you will, a Pokemon that hits harder than most megas, with more speed than them, and you are allowed at least two on the team, perhaps more. And honestly, a lot of your examples aren't really that great; M-Chomp is B+ in the viability rankings, as opposed to regular Chomp's A+, and even things like M-Mawile are borderline at worst and have a number of flaws holding it back. In its case, the speed, lack of reliable priority, and susceptibility to burn are its fatal flaws - similar lists of flaws can be found for most megas, and if you can't make one for a particular megas, then maybe it should be banned!
And no, things like Kyogre and Xerneas can't even compare in the level of power even to megas. In fact, in the Ubers viability rankings, only M-Gengar is among their rank, and even the disgustingly OP M-Kangaskhan is at a meagre B-rank.
And no, things like Kyogre and Xerneas can't even compare in the level of power even to megas. In fact, in the Ubers viability rankings, only M-Gengar is among their rank, and even the disgustingly OP M-Kangaskhan is at a meagre B-rank.
xJownage I have played competitively for more than 4 years, but thanks for your concern and free insults.
Who cares? that's exactly the problem with the power creep, how can you do something, other than transform the game to a mindless Killfest?
It's obvious that games become much more faster and situations transforms to a speed battle, who the fastest takes everything, as we can see here:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131960940
Truth to be said I found myself "choking with vomit" in the excadrill mirror match, it's surely not the type of metagame I want to see.
On a side note, I'd suggest you to go with Superpower over Focus Blast, it's more consistent on the Ladder, and gives you an edge against Tyranitar
"this gen has so many problems" OF COURSE IT HAS! Is that enough of a reason to turn a blind eye? I'd say no.
the Charizards: you haven't explained how you can know in advance what type of megas they are
Mega Tyranitar: hint hint: the added bulk allows him to easily reach +2
mega Mawile: that's why you can also use the substitute + focus punch set? I'm perfectly aware that Mawile is slow and reliant on sucker punch against faster threats, your point being...?
KztxL7 Not sure if you're trolling or just stupid. Tell me, where i say that we should ban mega banette or mega abomasnow because of mega mawile? if you want to troll, its not the right section dude ;)
sidakarya Simply, the comparision between Drizzle and Megaevolutions is that the weather was part of BW, and Megas are part of XY. Either are concepts that have brought more negative effects instead of positives.
Who cares? that's exactly the problem with the power creep, how can you do something, other than transform the game to a mindless Killfest?
It's obvious that games become much more faster and situations transforms to a speed battle, who the fastest takes everything, as we can see here:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131960940
Truth to be said I found myself "choking with vomit" in the excadrill mirror match, it's surely not the type of metagame I want to see.
On a side note, I'd suggest you to go with Superpower over Focus Blast, it's more consistent on the Ladder, and gives you an edge against Tyranitar
"this gen has so many problems" OF COURSE IT HAS! Is that enough of a reason to turn a blind eye? I'd say no.
the Charizards: you haven't explained how you can know in advance what type of megas they are
Mega Tyranitar: hint hint: the added bulk allows him to easily reach +2
mega Mawile: that's why you can also use the substitute + focus punch set? I'm perfectly aware that Mawile is slow and reliant on sucker punch against faster threats, your point being...?
KztxL7 Not sure if you're trolling or just stupid. Tell me, where i say that we should ban mega banette or mega abomasnow because of mega mawile? if you want to troll, its not the right section dude ;)
sidakarya Simply, the comparision between Drizzle and Megaevolutions is that the weather was part of BW, and Megas are part of XY. Either are concepts that have brought more negative effects instead of positives.
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dude the only one that seems have never played on ladder are you, seriously, megaevos RUINED the game, owell
Charizard X so what about I don't have azumarill or heatran in my team? scarfexcadrill is slower than charizard after a dance, scarfkeldeo lolwhat it sucks, scarfchomp hmm ok this is good but not in top usage, same for terrakion
Charizard Y what about it has no counter? you can revengekill it ok but in the meantime you lost a member of your team, god beneath switchback lol
Mega Mawile intersting how this threath used in core with Landorus can destroy every team, but bro will-o-wisp still not trepass the substitute i'm sorry :(
I think I see a Scarfchomp every three matches. And I play above 1700. It's common as hell.
Just pointing out.
This pretty much translates into: "We should wipe the slate clean of all Mega Evolutions, including the easily not overpowering ones like Gardevoir, Heracross, Manetric, Alakazam, Aerodactyl, Absol, Ampharos, Blastoise and even Bannette and Obama because a few are just too strong for my tastes."
There is no circumstance in which all mega evolutions should go and even some of the top ones should remain.
I can counter Mega Scizor and Mega Mawile simultaneously with Moltres for Christ's sake. Breloom is a thing. Mega Charizard X goes? Y gets slapped even more in the face.
I play above 1850 and I see it rarely, lol
CharX's usually carry either EQ or Thunderpunch, so either Heatran or Azumarill "wall" it, not both
When you say "common priority, are you referring to the Mach Punch and Bullet Punch that it resists, or the Aqua Jet that its neutral to in the sun?
I think a more logical argument would have just been Stealth Rock
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1825 usage stats say 14.9% of the teams have a Garchomp, and 38.2% of those have a Scarf. I'd say that's quite common for a single moveset.
Still, what should usage be important? Scarfchomp is a viable, strong option. Why shouldn't you put it in your team if it's struggling against Megazard?
KztxL7
Are you really sure that mega heracross and mega gardevoir aren't broken? More like, they are outclassed by other mega at the moment, they are quite powerful, the problem is that if we allow mega evolutions, we accept the power creep, since with omega ruby and alpha sapphire we are not aware how many powerful new mega gf will introduce us, we might end up with too many pokemons, and stupidly high powered attacks will become the norm, banning mega banette and mega abomasnow is just a collateral damage to keep the metagame balanced, not because mega mawile, another mega is stupidly powerful. Oh and, for god sake, yes I'm aware that Moltres can stop mega scizor and mega mawile, can we please stop mentioning trash NU 'mons in the OU thread?
Ok, now i'm going to sleep, i'll continue tomorrow.
Are you really sure that mega heracross and mega gardevoir aren't broken? More like, they are outclassed by other mega at the moment, they are quite powerful, the problem is that if we allow mega evolutions, we accept the power creep, since with omega ruby and alpha sapphire we are not aware how many powerful new mega gf will introduce us, we might end up with too many pokemons, and stupidly high powered attacks will become the norm, banning mega banette and mega abomasnow is just a collateral damage to keep the metagame balanced, not because mega mawile, another mega is stupidly powerful. Oh and, for god sake, yes I'm aware that Moltres can stop mega scizor and mega mawile, can we please stop mentioning trash NU 'mons in the OU thread?
Ok, now i'm going to sleep, i'll continue tomorrow.
dude I only reported what I'm seing in these days in ladder, anyway 15% of teams have garchomp and 38% of them have scarf, right? due to what you said to me you should encounter it six times every 100 battles (more or less)
dude I'm not discussing with you about this, so stop
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
Lol people think Aegi isn't borked.
Deos and aegi should be suspected first.
The reason aegislash is
Broken is because ghost stab is so good this gen, it can run a tone of good sets, it's ability is good asf and it has kingshield.
Tbh the only healthy s rank poke is thundy
Deos and aegi should be suspected first.
The reason aegislash is
Broken is because ghost stab is so good this gen, it can run a tone of good sets, it's ability is good asf and it has kingshield.
Tbh the only healthy s rank poke is thundy
If your answer to a reply is "I'm not gonna discuss this with you", then you shouldn't post arguments in first place.
Ok lol some people are getting a little ban happy here, why would we remove 1/4 of OU? And removing defog? what da faq?
The only two that are broken in OU are Landorus (Especially for Stall) and Aegislash. Thundurus may be a little OP but he also makes the metagame healthier with Priority Twave and Taunt, so even if Charizard X gets a DD up you have a check to it.
The only two that are broken in OU are Landorus (Especially for Stall) and Aegislash. Thundurus may be a little OP but he also makes the metagame healthier with Priority Twave and Taunt, so even if Charizard X gets a DD up you have a check to it.
Scarfchomp is extremely viable, especially endgame where you can set up an Outrage cleanup. I play 1800+ as well and it is pretty common.
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1st - Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir are not broken. You can stop there.
2nd - Stop talking about ORAS when we have little to no clue what they'll bring towards the OU Metagame.
3rd - You were proven wrong by Spooky in terms of "stupidly high powered attacks" when he showed you that Mega Houndoom, which is not all that strong in OU is the only one that can hit harder than Spec Kingdra.
4th - Its hard to take someone serious when their first idea to fix the metagame is "lets go for huge amounts of collateral for ridiculous reasons".
Lastly - If you're going to mention nonexistent metagames, then what is wrong with me mentioning a "trash NU pokemon" that still managed to retain a D rank and can counter your "oh so scary megas". Take note that its not even the best one at doing that makes it even funnier.
I guess you're one of those that started playing with BW
metagame without all the OP threath may become as DPP and Adv were, balanced and skilled but man, do you seriously want to maintain this metagame as it is?
deo-d imo needs suspecting soon and before anything else. everyone else has already stated the reaons for this, i dont feel the need to reiterate it
aegislash suspect would be really interesting. not that i think its necessarily broken but it is very centralizing, and id love to see what a tier without it looked like this gen
aegislash suspect would be really interesting. not that i think its necessarily broken but it is very centralizing, and id love to see what a tier without it looked like this gen
Surely removing the worst offenders (most of which aren't even megas lol) is a big enough meta-shift to make it more balanced, ne?
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