np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Alienation of the Wretched

[Nachos]

Hey there guys, the OU Council has decided to suspect test both Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S this round. There have been calls by players across the spectrum to give these two a suspect test, so that's exactly what's gonna happen.

To get the chance to vote, you'll need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 or more on the OU (Suspect Test) ladder that will be implemented very soon. Please note that this rating may not be the final rating required, and we reserve the right to increase or decrease the requirements based upon the first week of laddering. The suspect test will last for 2 weeks and will end on Monday 7 July 11:59pm EST. The vote will take place no more than a week after that.

Use this thread to discuss the suspects and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact me, Aldaron, gr8astard, Haunter or M Dragon through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

Good luck and have fun laddering!

Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

Here are some sample values:

GXE N
100 30
90 41
85 52
80 70
75 112
70 324

Credit for the illustration goes to anundeadboy.

 

[trc]

My opinion on one of the suspects:

Deoxys-D is incredibly unhealthy for the meta as it completely gets rid of the risk / reward nature of spikestacking and instead causes spikestacking to be an incredibly easy task, which is unhealthy because it punishes the opposing team simply for switching, which is usually meant to be another risk / reward concept, but the presence of a large amount of potential hazards makes switching a reward for the opposing team, regardless of whether the switch was a "smart switch" or a "switch that obtains momentum", and unless that Pokemon has Magic Guard (which should not be an argument), that team is punished for their "good play". Now SR is usually prevalent in any game and other Spikes setters have to utilize that risk / reward to setup on forced switches and the like. However, Deoxys-D's bulk and ability to hold Mental Herb due to not requiring a Focus Sash unlike other hazard leads means that conventional methods of dealing with hazard leads are basically irrelevant. It even has the movepool to hinder "normal" responses to it such as Bisharp and Aegislash. Not to mention that when playing against the sort of offensive teams that Deoxys-D is present on, one barely has chances to remove hazards due to the constant offensive pressure being applied, and when the Defog does happen (say Latios is out on Keldeo), you're either facing down a +2 Bisharp or your Keldeo stays in and burns you with Scald. Obviously these are specialised arguments but the point is that the effects Deoxys-D has on the metagame are unhealthy.

Thanks to the council for suspecting these Pokemon, and I will post my thoughts on Deoxys-S later on.

Edit: lol at all of the deleted posts n_n

 

[MikeDawg]

Ooh. This is exciting! I'm much more torn on these two this gen than I was last gen (Deo-d at least. S was before my time).

I'm curious to see how the suspect ladder plays out this time. Deo-d seems to be the all-around better hazard setter, by deo-s does everything, and that is equally if not more scary.

 

[Jobes]

The issue with Deo-S as a hazard setter is that the usual stops to Deo-D setting are fast but frail taunters, and these get destroyed by Deo-S. If you want to cover both, it either takes two pokemon or one that's very specialized. Things such as Taunt Gengar and Terrakion can outspeed Deo-D and Taunt it, but with Deo-S leading, they will just be OHKOed (barring Sash of course). It becomes a gamble with Deo-S: Will it attack you with its stellar coverage, set its own hazards, or Taunt and prevent you from setting your own hazards?

 

[RotomPoison]

Ok I don't see why suspecting both of these at once is smart. For one Deo-S is an excellent revenge killer but it is very vulnerable to priority. Even against Pokemon it is supposed to rk like Aegi it needs to use Knock Off which does not OHKO, and what stops it from KSing on Knock Off? It's definitely got stable counters that are in no way bad Pokemon themselves, it's not the strongest Pokemon out there. Sure it's ridiculously fast and all, but its flaws are enough to keep it manageable and I honestly think it's time for people to stop bandwaggoning on "oh aliens r broken" and actually think. I'm not saying it's not broken, but I'm not going to vote to ban it unless something changes my mind, and this time I might finally have the time to vote. (laddering is boring af and we all know it)

Deo-D on the other hand is a clear case. Not as versatile, strong, fast, or anything like that. The only difference is this thing is actually broken so yeah. It literally makes this meta HO by itself, I think we all know. I love spamming DeoSharp but hey that time is up lets fix this gen already. Good luck to everyone on the ladder!

 

[TFL]

Ok I don't see why suspecting both of these at once is smart. For one Deo-S is an excellent revenge killer but it is very vulnerable to priority. Even against Pokemon it is supposed to rk like Aegi it needs to use Knock Off which does not OHKO, and what stops it from KSing on Knock Off? It's definitely got stable counters that are in no way bad Pokemon themselves, it's not the strongest Pokemon out there. Sure it's ridiculously fast and all, but its flaws are enough to keep it manageable and I honestly think it's time for people to stop bandwaggoning on "oh aliens r broken" and actually think. I'm not saying it's not broken, but I'm not going to vote to ban it unless something changes my mind, and this time I might finally have the time to vote. (laddering is boring af and we all know it)

Deo-D on the other hand is a clear case. Not as versatile, strong, fast, or anything like that. The only difference is this thing is actually broken so yeah. It literally makes this meta HO by itself, I think we all know. I love spamming DeoSharp but hey that time is up lets fix this gen already. Good luck to everyone on the ladder!

Deoxys-S has more than one set. In the event that Deoxys-D were to get banned then Deoxys-S would just be used in its place. It also has the Dual Screens + Stealth Rock set that is complimented by its decent bulk - and people have argued that that set alone is broken.

Also, it's good that we are suspecting multiple things at once. Speeding up the process should help prevent what happened last gen, where we couldn't even get to everything. Hope it keeps going this way.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

These pokes are defining to the current meta and kicking them out will change alot, hopefully it is for the better. I think the only thing that will happen though is replacements will accomplish the same job, but they will be more predictable. Like the mixed LO thundy set will replace LO deo-s, shuckle replaces deo-d, klefki replaces screens deo....things like that. It should be healthy for the meta, im looking forward to it.

 

[RotomPoison]

Deoxys-S has more than one set. In the event that Deoxys-D were to get banned then Deoxys-S would just be used in its place. It also has the Dual Screens + Stealth Rock set that is complimented by its decent bulk - and people have argued that that set alone is broken.

Also, it's good that we are suspecting multiple things at once. Speeding up the process should help prevent what happened last gen, where we couldn't even get to everything. Hope it keeps going this way.

Ok, did I ever say it didn't? I was just talking about one of its sets. The rest of what you said is somewhat true though. I dislike suspecting multiple things at once because it's a bit inaccurate but hey if other people like it it's not the worst thing.

 

[Tesung]

This is gonna be my only post cuz these kinda threads become cancer by about page 3
Deo s- it was retarded to not ban this last time, ever set of it is insane, especially the overlooked dual screens, but it is just too good. The life orb set has no great switchins while also being just insanely fast, and it can sr id you don't mind losing some coverage. The pure lead set with superpower and taunt or magic coat is also great cuz people don't expect it as much anymore, and always gets 2 layers while being impossible to defog againstfucking bannnn

Deo d- meh I think it's fairly overrated, it can be defogged on and can be setup bait depending on the set. On the other hand it's freedom in item choice and sheer bulk makes it kinda close-ou, but close and will probly end up uber

 

[X5Dragon]

Lol I knew it. Anyway, this was going to happen eventually once we went past the obvious suspect list, because in all honesty nothing has changed with regards to their ability to provide support flawlessly, but what is worse this gen is that the team styles they support got buffed substantially, Megas and Priorities for offensive teams and Scolipede for BP teams.

Counters exist but are limited and highly circumstantial, because when we talk about priority taunt we must remember that not all Deoxys-S are suicide leads to begin with, Deo-D can employ Magic Coat and both can carry Mental Herb. As if that wasn't enough hazard removal is also complicated by solid cores as well.

Yes using Deos are a risk, but they pay off handsomely and leave limited options on how to respond and ultimately how you play the game itself.

If you were to ask me how to vote, I would say Ban both.

 

[Dragonicwari]

Just going to have a quick rant on Deo S:

God this mon has been fun to run in Ou (even if I stopped using it around Genesect Era). The reason why it is fun is the exact reason it is broken: it's versatility. This mon is incredibly unpredictable and does every single one of it's possible jobs exceptionally well. Want a fast hazard setter? Done. Want an anti lead mon that can do pretty good damage? Done. Need a revenge killer that doesn't need a scarf to outspeed almost the entire +1 metagame? Done. This mon has such a ridiculously large movepool and can utilize just about all of it without an issue. It's stats seem to be perfectly laid out, giving it just enough bulk, just enough power, and the lord knows it has more than enough speed. While I would thoroughly enjoy more time with this mon in ou, I really do think it should be banned.

 

[Albacore]

Although I'm leaning towards ban concerning Deo-D, I'm still a little torn on it. What it is is basically a 100% reliable hazards setter : unless you make a very bad misprediction or the opponent leads with Scolipede, it will always get Rocks and possibly one or two layers of spikes, while maybe even stopping opposing hazard leads / crippling something with TWave / taking out a stray Bisharp, and does this with practically no prediction. The opponent is pretty much helpless to stop it, even if he knows exactly what's about to happen which he probably does. Whether we decide to ban it really depends on how highly we value hazards this gen. I've tried Deosharp HO, and climbing the ladder with it is incredibly easy and mindless, much more so than any other playstyle. However, when you get up to a certain point, people are actually prepared to deal with it, so it may not be quite as good at high-level play. But still, the fact that causes Hyper Offense to be more formulaic and automated makes me want to see it gone.

Deo-S I think is definitely broken. The standard offensive set is basically a scarfer that switches moves, pretty much removing what makes Choice Scarf a balanced item in the first place. It also outspeeds all relevant scarfers bar Terrakion, and Keldeo and Latis, depending on far you want to stretch the definition of "relevant", and can OHKO most of them, stat spread permitting. It's also more powerful than most Scarfers thanks to Life Orb, and has a very powerful STAB to abuse as well. It's arguably the best revenge killer in the game, bar none. While not quite as good a hazard setter as Deo-D, it can throw people who expect an offensive set off a loop. And then there's the Dual Screens set which guarantees both screens in exactly the same way Deo-D guaranteed hazards. This Pokemon is just too good for OU to handle.

 

[Jirachee]

I think Deoxys-D is way overrated. It's a great lead for offensive teams but it needs a lot of support to be actually worth using and there are a lot of things that can just easily take advantage of it. Any set up sweeper that's faster and that is immune to Thunder Wave (Calm Mind Landorus, Nasty Plot Thundurus, Swords Dance Garchomp, anything with Sub, even SD Bisharp doesn't mind getting paralyzed all that much) will be absolute hell to deal with for those teams since they're basically forced into leading Deoxys-D, leading into multiple kills for the opponent right from the start if they don't wanna give up the only advantage Deoxys-D gives them (early game hazards). Not only that, but there are also multiple things that can easily remove its hazards. Excadrill, for example, doesn't mind anything Deoxys can throw at it, and it can just spin away the hazards easily because it beats the meta's 2 spinblockers (Gengar and Aegislash). A ton of Defoggers can also remove its hazards, like both Latis, and even slower ones that threaten Deoxys-D, like Scizor. Of course, a Bisharp can take advanage of the Defoggers, but most decent teams that have a Defogger also carry a Bisharp counter / good check because Bisharp + hazards is so obvious (also, Bisharp should be banned if it's what breaks Deo-D lol). I believe that most semi decent offensive teams pack at LEAST one of the things I talked about, if not more, so they should be able to deal with it. Granted, it does well against Stall teams, but given their current strength in the metagame I think that having something that does well against can't hurt (not that Deoxys-D teams are insta win against them, far from it)

On the other hand, I really think Deoxys-S should be banned. It has a ton of sets, which do different things that can't be all beaten by the same Pokemon. Offensive sets are really the best in my opinion and they have very few counters. They can carry a lot of different coverages which means unless you have like Aegislash, you're not gonna be able to switch into it easily. With over 500 Speed, it's hard to revenge kill it without using a priority user, given that it can outspeed even some of the faster Choice Scarfers, like Garchomp. Hazards lead sets and Dual Screens sets also exist, and they're very potent. Unlike Deoxys-D, it's never clear what set Deoxys-S carries which means it's hard to simply take advantage of it. The best way to deal with these sets are to counter lead them which is not always possible because you have to take an educated guess when it comes to its set. I think Deoxys-S is very unhealthy to the meta because of all the guessing games it causes and the potential payoff of each one of these sets.

 

[Shurtugal]

Question: Is it for only the OU (Suspect) ladder or for both OU and the OU (Suspect) ladder. It's done differently a lot so I'd like some extra clarification please! n__n

 

[Ranger Mike]

Honestly Deoxys speed hasn't really acted banworthy, I mean it is pretty fucking good but not broken good. The main deoxys s set is the revenge killer set and may I just say that it is amazing and is what makes deoxys s the titan he is today. However as TFL said if deoxys d is banned and s isn't then speed will just use hazards again. As for deoxys Defense I find this thing to be a combination of overcentralizing, to bulky for the ou metagame, and making the meta not very fun. As much as I love hyper offense and hate stall, deosharp has singlehandedly stopped stall from being a common playstyle. It is not bad perhaps but it just makes you pressured (pun not intended) to defog and when you do, BAM defiant boost and then proceeds to run through your team. Now to touch on deosharp jesus christ is this thing broken. Like I said before this combo puts a lot and I mean A LOT of offensive pressure on your team, risking a +2 boost but at the same time risking your win condition to die of hazards is just absolutely insane. I feel that Deoxys s should stay for at least one more stage because it does not come in and set up hazards multiple times, it comes in once in the beginning of the game and then dies if you are using the lead set.
TL;DR Keep Deoxys s again, send Deoxys d back to planet ubers.

 

[Memphis Grizzly]

Finally get to see this orange Twizzler disappear from OU, guaranteed layer of hazards regardless of opponents lead is rather unfair.

Between the two I'd personally would ban Deoxys S. It has more sets in the sashlead, screens and the revenge set. Having the fastest base speed without a scarf makes having a priority or tank a must depending on your playstyle of choice, even then it can break cores and can live some priority at the right amount of HP, but with the sash lead you can almost always get your rocks up. Fuck screens.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

In my experience of the two, i feel they both need to be banned. Especially as xy gave defiant a buff as a defog punisher, which made bisharp a larger threat, it became much harder to get rid of the hazards that they both easily set. Air balloon aegislash even stops excadrill, the metagame's prime spinner. While deo s is often used as a revenge killer, it is still an excellent hazard lead, with that incredible speed. Deo d really has nothing else going for it apart from setting hazards, so this needs to go, even if deo s doesnt.

 

[Escavalier]

As an avid user of Hyper Offense I'd just like to throw in my 2 cents.

Deoxys-Defense: I've had a ton of experience with this thing, and it is bar none the most reliable hazards setter in OU (but you already knew that). What makes it so unique is the unreal combination of ubers-worthy bulk, decent speed (enough to outspeed most relevant things in OU that flat out OHKO it), and its access to an excellent support movepool. Another interesting thing to consider is how it can beat a lot of things that can potentially OHKO it or stop it from doing its job. Running Magic Coat lets it beat fast Taunters. Running Mirror Coat lets it beat non-LO Aegislash. Running Superpower + a few Atk EVs lets it OHKO the most common forms of Bisharp and start the game 5-5 with hazards (as opposed to 5-6 with hazards).

At this point, we have to ask ourselves: why would we use any other entry hazard lead? There's the option of Shuckle, who trades Spikes for Sticky Web, or Mamoswine/Landorus-I/Garchomp, who thrive on the instant offensive pressure that they generate upon entering the field. The problem with the latter is that they are unreliable. They must run a Focus Sash in order to not be instantly KOed by faster threats, which means a fast/priority Taunt will ensure they don't do their job.

We move on to Shuckle, who will surely be the HO lead of choice in the event of a Deo-D ban. The disadvantage of using Shuckle is that without the huge support movepool of Deo-D, it is easily exploited by a set-up sweeper early game. It is also slower than most common Defoggers, and can't do anything back to them (whereas Deo-D could just Taunt them and keep hazards in play). Shuckle is only used now for its niche of Sticky Web - that's all it has over Deo-D. Deo-D is better in every single way.

For this reason, it harms the diversity of the metagame. If you want an effective hazards user for a HO team, you run Deo-D. Nothing else.

Ban Deoxys-Defense

Deoxys-Speed: This thing is ridiculous. The amount of shit it can do is unreal. One of my most successful team has utilised the Dual Screens set to set up and start doing damage right off the bat. More recently, the new wave of Baton Pass teams have come under some fire, with some labelling them broken. Surely this is only because of the free turns that Deo-S provides with its screens support, forcing the opponent into the choice of Defogging away screens, or staring down a Scolipede with +2 Defense and screens support to boot. This strategy would be much less threatening should Deo-S see a ban.

In the previous Deo-S suspect test, the majority of Deo-S' were still hazards leads - a set that is (mostly) outclassed by Deo-D. Because of this, many found Deo-S underwhelming and voted not to ban. A few weeks later, its deadly LO Revenge Killer set surfaced in OU, being able to revenge kill nearly every relevant offensive threat. A single Pokemon should not have the means to do that so effectively. With the incredible offensive pressure this set generates, it forces switches easily and sets up Stealth Rock with ease, being able to dodge the majority of Taunts in the metagame.

It can run so many other sets too, but I can't be assed to list them all. Bottom line is, the incredible diversity of this mon means there are no hard stops to all of its sets - and one wrong switch can punish your Pokemon or your team tremendously, whether it be in the form of screens or a nuke in Psycho Boost.

Ban Deoxys-Speed

 

[Mr.378]

I am glad that we're getting these suspects so soon. I'm glad that it is these two being brought up, because they are probably the most banworthy pokemon in the metagame right now. I am not totally sold on the prospect of banning either of these two as of now, but they are still the most questionable pokemon now. Because of this I am only going to give some brief, preliminary thoughts on the duo right now. Both of them are amazing support pokemon, and either of them can be considered the best in the tier.

With Deoxys-S, who already got suspected a few months ago, you have the more versatile of the two because of his speed. With it, it lends it self better to nonhazard roles such as being a weather setter for rain teams or a duel screen user. It also has the highest base speed in the game with reasonable offenses and one of the best movepools in the game, leading itself greatly as a revenge killer. A few months ago when we tested it along side Genesect and Mega-Lucario I thought it would be alright to keep around, as its main role was hazard setting and with the buff to defog it seemed as if that role was diminished. Now with the emergence of these new sets and niches I am less sure of Deoxys-S' place in the metagame, and it is a worthy retest.

Deoxys-D, in a few ways, is different. Where as Deoxys-S has more of a variety of roles that it plays, Deoxys-D is usually more focused in what it does. It is typically a hazard setter and lead for Hyper Offensive teams. It is, however, more effective in this role then Deoxys-S or any other pokemon is right now despite its relatively low speed. Its amazing bulk is what lets it stands out as the definitive hazard lead in the current metagame. With it, it is not only more likely to live and set multiple layers of hazards, but also allows it to forgo the focus sash ad use a different item, which can deter most possible counters to it such as taunt. In that sense, Deoxys-D is near-unstoppable in what it can do, with only the few pokemon capable of one hit killing it able to stop it. Because of this, I believe that is is the more overpowered of the two, in spite of its lack of offensive pressure.

Sorry if that felt a bit rambled, but as of right now I am still inconclusive on banning either of them, though I am leaning towards it with Deoxys-D. Regardless, I will form a more solid opinion on them once I gain the reqs necessary to vote.

 

[Evilfaic]

My thoughts on the suspects:

Deoxys-D
As a player who has used the DeoSharp core, I can say that this thing is extremely effective at performing it's role: Hazard Stacking. If you want a Hazard setter/Spike stacker for a Hyper Offense team, you use this, and only this. Deoxys-D becomes a necessity for every HO team. On the other hand, it is easily set up on by the likes of pretty much every setup sweeper if it does not carry Taunt. I see it as unhealthy for the OU metagame overall.

Deoxys-S
Deoxys-S, unlike its defensive counterpart, does not have a specific role that it has to play to be effective. It can be used as a Lead/Hazard setter (although Deo-D usually does this better), it can utilize a LO + 4 attacks set to act as a revenge killer, it can hold Damp Rock and be used as a Weather setter for Rain Hyper Offense teams, the list goes on. The thing's versatility is huge. However, each of these sets has a weakness. As a Hazard setter, it is easily set up on and it is killed quickly. As a revenge killer, it is very vulnerable to priority (read: Aegislash). But if it is lead with, you have to know which of these sets it is using, as you can't set up on the revenge killing set. It's unpredictable, and it performs it's roles well, however I just don't see it as ban-worthy, now or before in the Lucarionite/Genesect/Deo-S suspect.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Cool, apparently my hope for a suspect test by the end of the month was right on the money. Thank you council!

Anyway, people have already said plenty about D, in that its reliability at hazard stacking makes it an easy choice, but I'd like to hear more about S. My personal opinion is that it should go for it's offensive pressure making it impossible to reliably stop from doing its job. The pokes that can stop the SR get taken down by one of its coverage moves, and the pokes that can take its fast hits can't stop it from setting rocks. There's always priority taunt, but use that the turn he goes Ice Beam, and poof, ur gone. Plus I'm holding out for a Thundorus suspect. If you don't see what's changed, just look what got banned when S didn't, Genesect and MegaLuke, 2 pokemon that really shut this guy down (fast U-Turn or priority and SR resistances respectively). Now we rely on other forms of priority, but the obvious one, Talonflame, is ridiculously weak to SR.

 

[Ken Valbrandur]

I think banning both Deo-D and Deo-S can be really interesting, because there's no reliable way to Hyper Offense teams to spike stacking without losing momentum since Custap Berry is unreleased, so Skarmory or Forre can't fill this role. It certainly will make the metagame more interesting without tons of Deosharp teams.

ty based ou council

 

[Arkian]

Hi hello, I have a few thoughts :o

Deoxys-D: This thing's ability to easily provide Spikes-support makes it broken imo. Its excellent bulk lets it set up two or more layers of hazards with ease, and these layers go a long way in supporting OU's offensive powerhouses like Keldeo, Bisharp, Landorus, etc. as they usually only need a little bit of prior damage to get past their checks. Deoxys-D is not setup fodder at all imo, as it has a speedy Taunt to stop Pokemon like Mega Gyarados from setting up on it. While OU has a lot of faster Taunters, Deoxys-D can run Mental Herb and TWave + Taunt to immediately shut them down and continue setting up. It also has niche moves for its "checks" like Bisharp and Aegislash, which are both handled by Superpower and Mirror Coat respectively. The only thing that keeps Deo-D from being bluntly broken is its 4MSS, as it wants to run all of Spikes / SR / Taunt / Twave / Recover / Superpower / Mirror Coat. However, I don't feel like that's enough to make up for the immense amount of support it provides for offense and how easily it does so. Yeah Rapid Spinning and Defogging is a thing, but there are a lot of consequences for using them and Deo-D teams usually carry Defiant Bisharp/Thundurus and Air Balloon Aegislash to beat these strategies. Overall, I believe that Deo-D's support makes HO teams too overwhelming for most, if not all, teams to handle, which is why it is unhealthy for the tier and should be banned.

Deoxys-S: This Pokemon is more broken than Deoxys-D imo. Deo-S is so versatile; it can fulfill many roles for any team, such as a revenge killer, hazard setter, Dual Screener, wallbreaker (kinda but not really), etc. Its excellent coverage + decent power makes it really hard to switch into, as a simple moveset of Psycho Boost / Superpower / Ice Beam / Knock Off deals with just about everything in the metagame except for like Mega Scizor and Aegislash. Furthermore, it is an excellent team supporter with access to the fastest non-priority Taunt in the game, as well as entry hazards and dual screens, as it abuses the switches it forces to easily set these up. It's unhealthy in the metagame because of the sheer amount of things it can effectively do, which keeps the opponent guessing and struggling to find switch-ins. Ban it as well imo.

Also what happened to suspecting Aegislash??

 

[Rechi]

~THE DEOXYS CYCLE~
-Step 1: The Deo formes get unbanned again for some reason
-Step 2: They go under the radar while new toys get played with and the more offensive obviously broken stuff gets banned
-Step 3: Everybody remembers that Deoxys is cancer.
-Step 4: We suspect test them again, they get banned, our time has been wasted
-Step 5: Go back to step 1 when the next generation starts

When these two get banned again (because let's not kid ourselves here) can we please start treating them like the other Deoxys formes and ban them at the start of the generation? I think nearly ten years of repeating the same stupid pattern is enough to tell us that they're inherently broken by now.

 

[Flamer]

Finally

Deo-D is broken, full stop. The ability to Guarantee at the very minimum two layers of hazards was unbelievably powerful last gen and Defog mechanincs didn't even exist. I'm torn on Deo-S however, its not broken in its current iteration as a revenge killer, which is actually a balancing element that checks a great many sweepers, but if Deo-D goes then it will be the next best thing for hazard setting, which is worrying but i suppose there's other stuff that could take their place anyway (Shuckle, Froslass ect.). At the present moment Deo-D should be banned, Deo-S, not sure, but leaning toward anti-ban.