Bisharp has worse special bulk than Rampardos. Oh, the irony. And Bisharp's a Steel-type, hohoho. (Okay, I'm sorry, I'll stop.) The problem is that the Pokémon you've mentioned, in particular Breloom, Keldeo and Hippowdon, are quite common in OU, while Mega Gyarados can comfortably set up a DD on Bisharp as it resists both of Bisharp's stats. Sure, Bisharp is amazing, but its crippling weaknesses to Fighting, Fire and Ground are what keep it from S-Rank. In essence, you're bringing up counterarguments to change Bisharp's ranking while you're aiming to move it up, so you're completely contradicting yourself. G'job, man.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Dark/Steel isn't THAT amazing, since you have to deal with ridiculously common Fire-, Ground-, and Fighting-type moves almost constantly, and most Pokemon of those types can either outspeed, live a Sucker Punch, or both, and force Bisharp out, and a 4x Mach Punch weakness really sucks for him. And 70 Speed is hardly what I'd call usable; it's only good when against stall, and even then, there are some faster Pokemon on stall teams, such as Heatran, Mandibuzz, and MegaZard X. Will-O-Wisp is also a problem, as Rotom-W, Heatran again, Bulky Zard X, and Gengar can throw it around without fear of Sucker Punch. Bisharp is amazing, and at some point I may have said Bisharp is S-Rank worthy, but I now realize that he just has too much going against him to be S-Rank.
Just cause the Pokemon that beat are common doesn't mean Bisharp isn't incredibly broken. Azumarill and Talonflame countered Blazekin does that mean Blazekin wasn't broken? Also Bisharps poor special bulk doesn't mean anything cause he OHKOES special attackers with sucker punch before they can even land a hit on him, something Rampardos can't do.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
Did you completely disregard my previous post? If your team is horrendously weak to bisharp, you're bound to have a bias(i know its weak to bisharp because i have seen your team before). seriously, stop posting or learn the meta.
The Rampardos thing was just pointing something out. You must of missed it. It means that ATTACK ISN'T EVERYTHING. Hope that cleared things up.
Bisharps typing is pretty good offensively, and pretty neat defensively. Amazing it is not. It's 4x weak to Mach Punch. And Bisharp is no Tyranitar when it comes to defences. Which means its pretty easy to RK. And you do realise that Sucker Punch RELIES ON YOUR OPPONENT ATTACKING. I said this LAST time. And while Bisharp has other moves, its only as good as it is thanks to SP.
Onto the point of "overcentralisation" no it's not. It's bulk is pretty meh (like I mentioned before) and can easily be worn down with things like WoW and Leech Seed (Yeah it's Immune to Toxic...) And it's weak to Ground, you know, that one thing that keeps Heatran out of Ubers (Becuase it counters Rock types, EQ has very wide distribution, ETC) and Bisharp can easily be killed on the switch. Now I'm not saying its bad, or even deserving of a lowering, but it has enough flaws to keep it out of "Future Suspect Test" Rank. (Yes I said that, let the rage begin!)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 224-265 (75.1 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp in Sun: 840-990 (308.8 - 363.9%) -- guaranteed overkill
>He OHKOes special attackers with SP
Come again?
How cinco swift consistently post things like this (darmanitan, heliolisk, and bisharp) and is being completely serious is unbelievable to me.
On another note, can someone please give me a reason why we shouldn't straight drop reuniclus to D rank? I've played with the CM set and its horrendously outclassed by clefable, with its only advantage as beating mega venusaur easier. And its offensive TR set is sub par at best as well IMO. Reuniclus's biggest issues are that dark and ghost are just way to common, as almost everything in the higher ranks just hits it with knock off or just dumps on it with high power moves, like keldeo, both zards, BISHARP, gengar, talonflame, hell almost everything above B rank. I'm struggling to find something that can't 2hko reuniclus with proper coverage or just sheer firepower nowadays. If someone has some experience with it, id be interested in hearing some more input.
On another note, can someone please give me a reason why we shouldn't straight drop reuniclus to D rank? I've played with the CM set and its horrendously outclassed by clefable, with its only advantage as beating mega venusaur easier. And its offensive TR set is sub par at best as well IMO. Reuniclus's biggest issues are that dark and ghost are just way to common, as almost everything in the higher ranks just hits it with knock off or just dumps on it with high power moves, like keldeo, both zards, BISHARP, gengar, talonflame, hell almost everything above B rank. I'm struggling to find something that can't 2hko reuniclus with proper coverage or just sheer firepower nowadays. If someone has some experience with it, id be interested in hearing some more input.
What's with the Greninja hate? That thing is one of the best Pokemon in the tier and certainly one of the most threatening. I get through building so many teams before realizing that it has a huge Greninja weakness. It's one of the most threatening Pokemon to offensive teams, which usually have to rely on sacking Thundurus just to T Wave it.
In case people are thinking about responding to the Bisharp discussion again, please refrain. It's not moving up again and was explained perfectly in previous posts. Unfixables post last page for example. Stop the Bisharp debate please.
EDIT: if you think Mega Mawile is easier to check than Bisharp or "more easily stopped" then I question what level of OU you play. Mega Mawile is stupid hard to check while Bisharp forces less switches, hits softer, runs less sets, and relies more on priority.
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Here's an idea: Everyone stop responding to Cinco Swift's posts. He clearly has no credibility, so just ignore him and he'll stop posting (hopefully).
Anyway, I saw a post on the VR thread calling for Mega Manectric to be dropped and I completely agree with that. 135 Special Attack with no boosting item or ability is pretty weak for an offensive threat, and it is still very frail even with Intimidate. The higher speed tier and Intimidate is not really a great reason to blow your mega slot on something which is weaker than Thundurus and Raikou if they use a Life Orb or Specs. As Laurel said, stall doesn't care about Mega Manectric at all, and it isn't that threatening to offensive threats unless they are weak to one of its attacks. Intimidate + Volt Switch can be annoying for some offensive teams, but being annoying isn't B+ material especially since Mega Manectric has so many flaws.
Edit: I would actually recommend dropping Mega Manectric all the way to B-. That is where the other fast megas are (Alakazam, Aerodactyl). These two hit harder than Mega Manectric and don't face as much direct competition as Mega Manectric. It has Volt Switch and Intimidate over the other two, but I think their advantages balance it out so I think Mega Manectric should be in the same rank as Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Zam.
Anyway, I saw a post on the VR thread calling for Mega Manectric to be dropped and I completely agree with that. 135 Special Attack with no boosting item or ability is pretty weak for an offensive threat, and it is still very frail even with Intimidate. The higher speed tier and Intimidate is not really a great reason to blow your mega slot on something which is weaker than Thundurus and Raikou if they use a Life Orb or Specs. As Laurel said, stall doesn't care about Mega Manectric at all, and it isn't that threatening to offensive threats unless they are weak to one of its attacks. Intimidate + Volt Switch can be annoying for some offensive teams, but being annoying isn't B+ material especially since Mega Manectric has so many flaws.
Edit: I would actually recommend dropping Mega Manectric all the way to B-. That is where the other fast megas are (Alakazam, Aerodactyl). These two hit harder than Mega Manectric and don't face as much direct competition as Mega Manectric. It has Volt Switch and Intimidate over the other two, but I think their advantages balance it out so I think Mega Manectric should be in the same rank as Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Zam.
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It's a decent pivot n all, and its a fantastic check to fly spam and thundy, but really, its so fucking weak I have a hard time justifying its use :/
I mean that's really all there is to it! If it was stronger, I'd put it in A- atleast, but its weak af. Intimidate can help its bulk more than you think (cept against bisharp) but really all that's holding it back is power, and its got none of it, so yeah, I support a drop to B.
I mean that's really all there is to it! If it was stronger, I'd put it in A- atleast, but its weak af. Intimidate can help its bulk more than you think (cept against bisharp) but really all that's holding it back is power, and its got none of it, so yeah, I support a drop to B.
Yeah, I used to be a major advocate of Mega Manectric, but tbh I'm not sure why I used to be so hyped about it. It gives frail offensive teams headaches because of it's crazy speed and great coverage, but teams with actual bulk don't mind it too much. I'd support a drop to B since it's still a good mon, sorta niche but still one of the best momentum grabbers against offense.
Manectric is still better than Raikou, though.
Manectric is still better than Raikou, though.
Raikou has better bulk, can get past Mega Venusaur with Extrasensory, can hold an item like Life Orb or Choice Specs (meaning it hits harder), has a boosting move in Calm Mind, can actually check Bisharp, and its base Speed lets it check Thundurus and Keldeo (which Manectric can't do unless it Mega Evolved earlier in match).
Manectric is bulkier physically with Intimidate, can check Alakazam, Greninja, and Tornadus-T once it can find a turn to Mega, has Overheat to break through Excadrill and Ferrothorn, and isn't locked into an attack like Specs Raikou is or doesn't get whittled down as badly throughout a match like Life Orb Raikou does. Venusaur struggles to deal with constant Volt Switching anyways since it has no passive recovery.
CM Raikou is pretty legit, though.
Yes people are finally getting over the MegaMan hype!
Talking about C+ pokemon, I am concerned about the following:
Mega-Blastoise - why is this guy still here? Is there a set of him that makes him as viable as the other C+ mons?
Hydreigon - does this guy still have a niche in OU? He no longer has his flawless coverage, and he really didn't take the OU changes well.
Zygarde - I never really got what Zygarde is supposed to do in OU, other than give your team yet another 4x Ice Weakness and Fairy Weakness...
Talking about C+ pokemon, I am concerned about the following:
Mega-Blastoise - why is this guy still here? Is there a set of him that makes him as viable as the other C+ mons?
Hydreigon - does this guy still have a niche in OU? He no longer has his flawless coverage, and he really didn't take the OU changes well.
Zygarde - I never really got what Zygarde is supposed to do in OU, other than give your team yet another 4x Ice Weakness and Fairy Weakness...
Blastoise: Tanky, Decent Special Attack and a Mega Launcher boosted Dark Pulse makes it in theory the best spinner in the game. However, it gets 2HKOED by many strong neutral attacks if running max hp max special attack which is the best set, faces competition with Excadrill which can hold an item to boost it's power and hits the 2 most relevant ghosts, Slash and Gengar with mold breaker Earthquake (bar air balloon Aegislash variants) and most importantly, does not use up your mega slot
Hydreigon: Mixed Life orb set lures in Sylveon and Azumarill and Steels and killing with any of Iron Tail, Specs Charge Beam, Head Smash(works for Togekiss and can 2HKO Azu), Earth Power, Superpower and Fire Blast depending on what you want to lure out and kill.
Zygarde: Arguably the best coil user in the game and can set up on quite a few pokes namely Heatran, Rotom formes, Aegislash even.
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I think MegaMan should stay wherever MHera and MGarde are. All three of them can perform extremely well but require team support and their team has to be specifically built around them for optimal performance, though MegaMan carries slightly less dependence than the other two with a slightly lower threat level as well. It checks a good portion of the meta and forces switches while scouting and denting the switch-ins. It has good coverage and the most common ground types are 4x weak to Ice. It can work well against stall by bluffing HP Ice and running HP Grass for Quagsire alongside a Skarmory lure. Everything on Stall gets dented on the switch-in and is then forced out by a threat before getting to heal. Even Chansey has about 25% scraped off of it with SR up and it's lack of Leftovers really give it a hard time coming into Manectric.
Also a big threat to Genie teams which generally run Steel and Water types to balance the Ice weakness, Man's coverage deals with both.
Also a big threat to Genie teams which generally run Steel and Water types to balance the Ice weakness, Man's coverage deals with both.
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Since we're going to focus on lower ranks, I'll just repost this from a few pages ago, minus the part on Volcarona which has already moved down.
Edit: Salemance raised a good point, no-one wants chansey vs blissey "discussion" sprawling across multiple pages, so just ignore that part.So I'd like to see some of the pokemon in the lower ranks move down.
Sharpedo: C+ to Unranked
The usual set is Protect, Waterfall, Crunch, Aqua Jet/Destiny Bond, right? Its job is to revenge kill or sweep late game, but it's terrible at both. If it wants to revenge kill something, it has to protect first, giving your opponent a free switch to something that resists its stabs such as Keldeo or Azumarill. However, most sweepers either carry priority (Pinsir), speed boosting moves (Volcarona :P) or both (Dragonite), so it can't revenge kill them anyway. It'll also never sweep in this priority infested meta because it has the defenses of a wet paper bag; even a resisted hit like Azumaril's Aqua Jet or M-Scizor's Bullet punch are guaranteed 2HKOs after Life Orb. Its lack of a boosting move also mean that you'll generally have something to tank the hit and KO back. Destiny Bond is cool, but when you're probably going to kill this with priority it doesn't even matter. Tbh, I don't see a reason to even use this over Deoxys-S or Talonflame or even Sash Alakazam. It might fit in D rank (D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.), but tbh its so shit I think it should just be unranked.
Blissey: C to D/Unranked
I'm sure everyone already knows why; the only thing Blissey has over its little sister Chansey is Flamethrower to stop setup from Scizor, Ferrothorn and Skarmory.
D rank imo. (Don't anyone dare say "Bu-bu-but KNOCK OFF!")
TL;DR
Sharpedo: C+ to D/Unranked
Its job is to revenge kill and sweep late game but fails at doing either because of the abundance of priority and its paper-thin defenses. No reason to use it ever over Deo-S or Talonflame tbh.
Blissey: C to D/Unranked
Chansey>Blissey, Duh.
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Sadly since all your other info is in a reply, can not directly reply to that. At least its all above this one so theres that :D
I'm not gonna condone the Blissey v Chansey argument again. I'm so sick and tired of seeing that waste valuable pages that its ridiculous. Sharpedo on the other hand, I can see moving down.
Compared to the rest of C+ Rank, he doesn't look like he fits in at all. From how I see C+ rank, its a group of mons who have a viable niche, but are severely outclassed in their roles making them very unreliable in the metagame as a cause of it like Haxorus being outclassed as a dragon dancer for its speed or Starmie for being slower and weaker than Greninja and etc. Sharpedo just requires too much support in my mind to be able to do anything particularly noteworthy. Needs to waste a turn on protect, doesn't hit hard even with life orb, and is frailer than mons such as Gengar, meaning it cant even hope to take a hit if it wishes too. I feel a little confused as to how it is so highly ranked in the first place, so I wouldn't mind seeing it explained by someone who knows how useful Sharpedo is in the current meta, as I feel lost trying to understand its viability compared to things such as Starmie or Haxorus.
Raikou wishes it had Overheat or Flamethrower, which allow Manectric to get past things like Ferrothorn and Mega Mawile far more easily. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Manectric that has already Mega Evolved is much faster than Raikou, getting past Greninja and Mega Alakazam. Both have their niches, but Mega Manectric is still more useful, I feel, so the lowest I'd drop Mega Manectric is B. I prefer to see it stay in B+, however, as its utility is still quite useful.
I'll just be writing one more post regarding Mega Manectric and Raikou, each with their stronger and weaker points.
Mega Manectric
+ Fits easily and really well on many types of teams
+ Fantastic scout, hole puncher and late-game cleaner with 135 SAtk and Spe
+ Lightning Rod as regular Manectric bolsters its Special Attack by 1.5 and gives it a chance to sweep, especially if it carries Flamethrower for consistency
+ Intimidate and Volt Switch further aid its scouting abilities
+ Overheat and Flamethrower are absolute gems, hitting Pokémon such as Scizor, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn and Mega Mawile
- Susceptible to Bisharp, potentially activating Defiant
- Has trouble getting past Mega Venusaur
- Average special bulk (70 HP/80 SDef)
Raikou
+ Can run a variety of sets depending on items
+ 115 SAtk and Spe are pretty great with boosting items
+ AV allows Raikou to check specially powerful threats
+ LO gives it some nice power, especially when coupled with CM
+ Has Extrasensory for Mega Venusaur
- Physically frail (90/75)
- Pressure is very limited in use compared to Intimidate
- AV is kind of a weak hitter
- Coverage issues
- Walled by Mega Scizor
- Faces stiff competition from Zapdos as a bulky Electric-type
Both
+ Fast, reliable Electric-types that are easy to fit on teams
+ Both find their use depending on the team's needs
+ Each has its own selection of targets it can beat to help the team out
+ Both look badass as fuck
- Walled by Tyranitar, Mega Tyranitar and Mega Charizard X
- Hippowdon says hi
I don't want to unleash another Mega Manectric-related shitstorm, so I rest my case. Leave Mega Manectric in B+; if dropped, to B at lowest.
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Yeah good point on the chansey vs blissey, I edited my post.
Electric/Fire is really quite good coverage that Raikou lacks. Raikou is also slower, and if it's using Ass Vest it's not as powerful. And Extrasensory ONLY hits Mega Venusaur, whereas Flamethrower/Overheat hit Mawile, Ferrothorn, Scizor, Aegislash, Excadrill, etc.
And while Mega Man is pretty ineffectual against Stall and defensive teams, the same can be said for quite a lot of things in the upper ranks, due to being walled completely by commonly seen pokemon on those teams. And Mega Garde and Cham, while great against stall, are not so great against offense, due to their relatively low speed, poor bulk (Garde has some special bulk though) and their issues with Aegislash. I mean they do have some level of efficacy cause if they get a turn to attack, something is probably gonna die, but they can't really switch in to anything and are really easy to RK.
Also lol @ "it can't kill Aegislash from max." Like seriously if you don't have STAB SE moves, a damage boosting item and/or boosts you can't do that unless you're Specs Keldeo in Rain. A non-STAB user of Overheat would literally need base 200 SpA or so to have a chance of KOing.
Edit: By the way, I'm not entirely opposed to dropping Mega Man, but imo it's just better than Raikou (mostly better: Ass Vest set is kind of cool.) So no lower than B. And tbh Raikou is more deserving of rising to to B than Mega Man is dropping to it.
And while Mega Man is pretty ineffectual against Stall and defensive teams, the same can be said for quite a lot of things in the upper ranks, due to being walled completely by commonly seen pokemon on those teams. And Mega Garde and Cham, while great against stall, are not so great against offense, due to their relatively low speed, poor bulk (Garde has some special bulk though) and their issues with Aegislash. I mean they do have some level of efficacy cause if they get a turn to attack, something is probably gonna die, but they can't really switch in to anything and are really easy to RK.
Also lol @ "it can't kill Aegislash from max." Like seriously if you don't have STAB SE moves, a damage boosting item and/or boosts you can't do that unless you're Specs Keldeo in Rain. A non-STAB user of Overheat would literally need base 200 SpA or so to have a chance of KOing.
Edit: By the way, I'm not entirely opposed to dropping Mega Man, but imo it's just better than Raikou (mostly better: Ass Vest set is kind of cool.) So no lower than B. And tbh Raikou is more deserving of rising to to B than Mega Man is dropping to it.
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I really don't think Sharpedo is bad enough to be unranked. He is really a pretty solid cleaner, and isn't quite as bad at revenge killing as you say. He can even revenge kill Talonflame with the combo of protect + aqua jet, which is something not many pokes can claim. (Aqua jet doesn't OHKO from full health but with a bit of brave bird recoil, which it should have considering its a rk, it gets the KO). It's really a terror to HO if you can get rid of Mach punchers/Esspeeders. It also resists a lot of other priority moves, which is just another plus for it. Maybe move it down to C/C- because it still has a lot of problems, but I definitely think its better than the likes of Mega Aboma and Moltres.
Apart from not hitting very hard, it has pretty bad coverage even if Protect and Aqua Jet didn't already take two slots.
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