Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Valmanway]

I think it might be a good idea to clean up the lower ranks since there is some really questionable stuff down there. Here is a list of Pokemon I think should be dropped from the list entirely.

Venomoth: I don’t know why this thing is even ranked much less C rank. If you really want to quick pass Quiver Dance then Smeargle is better because it has a 100% accurate sleep move and it can run Taunt or Magic Coat in the fourth slot to stop phazing and other stuff. Its analysis was also rejected.

Celebi: Why use this over any of the higher ranked Grass types? Its defensive typing is terrible. If you want to do Nasty Plot + Baton Pass, you are probably better off using Mew which has more options for the other two moveslots and doesn’t have as many weaknesses.

Jirachi: Its analysis got rejected. It is versatile, but almost everything it can do can be done better by something else. Chansey, Sylveon, and even Umbreon are better at passing Wishes, Togekiss does ParaFlinch better, the Scarf set is very weak, and there are a ton of better SR setters out there. There are also a ton of Ground, Fire, Ghost, and Dark type moves out there to blast it.

Toxicroak: With rain now limited to 8 turns, Dry Skin just isn’t that good anymore. There is nothing about Toxicroak that makes it stand out as being good in OU.

Empoleon: Scald + Stealth Rock + Defog is unique, but is that really worth running something which is otherwise really bad? Its defensive typing isn’t that great outside of countering a few specific threats, and it has no reliable recovery. I think it belongs with Donphan, Forretress, and Tentacruel in the shitty utility Pokes category.

Also, I’m not sure if something having an analysis automatically means it must be ranked, because it is really difficult to make an argument for why someone should use things like Moltres, Snorlax, Meloetta, and Cofagrigus in OU.

Venemoth: What makes Venemoth different from Smeargle is that he can actually sweep on his own with Tinted Lens, or can use use Wonder Skin to potentially avoid status moves such as Spore and Taunt. I think C rank might be a bit generous, but Venemoth can more than set himself apart from Smeargle.

Celebi: Having resistances to Water and Fighting-type moves is a great thing to have, even with the multiple weaknesses, and with Wish and Heal Bell support backed by great overall defenses and Speed, it certainly has a use as a cleric. Plus, if you incorrectly guess a defensive set, you might give it a free Nasty Plot boost.

Jirachi: Paraflinch is annoyingly cheap, but it can get the job done against slower threats. It has a niche, but I still hate its freaking guts.

Toxicroak: Due to Dry Skin, Toxicroak can check Azumarill and Choice locked Keldeo. It's barely a niche, but hey, it's something.

Empoleon: He can threaten Azumarill without Superpower, Greninja without Dark Pulse, Mega Mawile without Focus Punch, and Talonflame. He sucks, but has his uses.

 

[Destimo]

On a TR team, Cofagrigus fulfills a niche spot for walking certain mons and spreading burns. It isn't taunt bait either with Calm Mind and Shadow Ball.

At best, he'd be a D Rank, due to Mummy being able to stop most scary sweepers. I'm fairly sure cutting off Tough Claws, Huge Power or even Mold Breaker for a turn could mean something.

I say, at best D.

 

[TFL]

Toxicroak: Due to Dry Skin, Toxicroak can check Azumarill and Choice locked Keldeo. It's barely a niche, but hey, it's something.

I don't think we should be ranking 'somethings'. We should be ranking Mons that are actually effective and good when used correctly. I have seen my fair share of Celebi teams, built by good players, but it has never gone past being subpar, in my eyes. The same goes for Jirachi and a lot of other low ranked Mons.

The Ubers viability thread looks like it sets a good example of this, where the list is actually filled with Pokemon that work well within the tier (D and Chansey rank being the exceptions, but that's for the sake of the users).

 

[Pagoose]

On the topic of Sharpedo, I have some experience using it. First off, I don't know how you can consider it weak. 120 atk with life orb brings it to over 500 atk, which I don't know how you can consider weak. Water/Dark/Ground coverage is pretty good, and you can substitute EQ for nice moves like Ice Beam and Destiny Bond, which can really come in handy. I also wouldn't say it's completely outclassed by Scolipede, as it's more powerful on Rain Teams, has priority, and has much better coverage (bug is an awful offensive type), not to mention having the utility of Destiny Bond. I think being a late game cleaner that can beat Talonflame is enough of a niche to warrant it somewhere in the C range. I think it's fine where it is.

The attack stat isn't all that matters. Scolipede and Deoxys-S are actually stronger than Sharpedo by a significant amount because of the base power of their stab moves:

252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 234-277 (68.6 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 175-208 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 242-285 (70.9 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You also say that it can beat talonflame, for which it would need aqua jet (which actually only does 90% max) but you also say it runs EQ. So your set is EQ/Protect/WF/Crunch/AJ? It also is complete dead weight against stall because it cannot boost. It is walled by Clefable, M-Scizor, M-Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Chansey, Quagsire, Chesnaught, Amoonguss, Suicune... do I need to go on? Also gets walled by common HO pokemon like Azumarill, Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, and revenge killed or left to finish itself off by recoil by pretty much anything with priority:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 167-197 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 398-470 (141.6 - 167.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 298-351 (106 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also if you are using it on a rain team, why would you use it over kabutops, who may have 5 base attack less, but can run swords dance, low kick or even rapid spin, doesn't have to waste turns with protect, beats talonflame too, and most importantly, can actually take hits. So yeah, Sharpedo to Unranked.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

The attack stat isn't all that matters. Scolipede and Deoxys-S are actually stronger than Sharpedo by a significant amount because of the base power of their stab moves:

Scolipede is only more powerful than Sharpedo when using Megahorn, and since Bug is an awful offensive type, it can't always spam it. And I agree that it has a bit of 4MSS but it doesn't necessarily need either Crunch or EQ. Also you're forgetting how awesome it can be with a super fast, unexpected Destiny Bond. And it's possible to run it on the same rain team as Kabutops. One is a sweeper, one is a cleaner. I agree that maybe dropping it to C- rank would be better, but it shouldn't be unranked.

 

[the-bumper-car]

CB Talonflame outspeeds a +1 Speed Sharpedo, and CB Brave Bird OHKOs. So Sharpedo can't even claim to be better at dealing with Talonflame than Scolipede. Also Scolipede can nab a Swords Dance on most defensive mons, especially those that rely on Toxic for their damage, while Sharpedo is dead weight versus Stall.

 

[Zebstrika]

Sharpedo needs 36 speed EVs to outspeed every Adamant Talonflame at +1 and 128 EVs to outspeed Jolly Talonflame. Every Sharpedo has this investment so it outspeeds Talonflame at +1...

 

[Red Cat]

Okay, I got a couple of responses to my post so I’ll elaborate more on why I think these Pokemon should be lowered if not dropped off the list entirely.

Venomoth: For some reason it has an analysis even though it is in the list of rejected analysis, so someone fucked up. It does have Wonder Skin and some offensive capability which Smeargle doesn’t have, but Smeargle can use Taunt or Magic Coat which are more reliable than Wonder Skin. As for the offensive capability of Venomoth, it isn’t that great. Venomoth isn’t hitting that hard without a boosting item or investment even at +1. Even with Tinted Lens, it still does pitiful damage to Aegislash, Mega Mawile, Talonflame, Zard-Y, and Heatran. Venomoth also has a sleep inducing move which will fail 25% of the time while Smeargle has the reliable Spore. So Smeargle is generally much more reliable at passing Quiver Dance than Venomoth.

Celebi: It is a Grass type cleric, but it is a bad Grass type and a bad cleric, so the only reason to ever use it is if you absolutely have to jam both roles into one teamslot. You are usually better off using Mega Venusaur or Amoongus to deal with Keldeo and Breloom. Like I said before, Nasty Plot + Baton Pass is usually better done with Mew which can force more switches with the threat of WoW and Knock Off. Mew also has Taunt which helps it Baton Pass successfully.

Jirachi: Any Electric type can stop ParaFlinch sets and Togekiss is generally better at doing ParaFlinch anyway because it can boost with Nasty Plot and has better defensive typing.

Toxicroak: It can check Azumarill, but again you are better off using Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, Amoongus, Ferrothorn, or Kyurem-B. As for Choice locked Keldeo, lots of stuff can check it if you know what move it is locked into; you just switch in a resist to that move. Toxicroak can’t counter Keldeo if it is carrying HP Flying for Mega Venusaur.

Empoleon: Yes it has SR + Defog + Knock Off, but it suffers from Donphan syndrome where it tries to do everything in one moveset and does nothing well. If you have already selected your other 5 Pokemon and don’t have SR or hazard removal covered yet, you should change your team if Excadrill or Skarmory don’t fit because Empoleon is going to be very easy for the opponent to apply pressure to and wear it down and it is going to be very difficult for Empoleon to find opportunities to set up/ remove SR.

It is easy to theorymon a niche for almost any Pokemon, but that doesn’t make it viable. People were advocating for things like Darmanitan and Heliolisk to be ranked because they have tiny advantages over higher ranked Pokemon, but you are giving up so much for that niche that you are probably not going to get very far using those Pokemon. I think the same applies to the five Pokemon I have listed here.

 

[Zapdos from [Hero]]

In my opinion, move Zapdos to A+, because:

a) it has a good defensive typing, only 2 weaknesses while checking Pinsir, Gengar, Aegislash, Latias, with some specialized spread also Latios, Talonflame, Staraptor, electric attackers like Thundurus and Manectric, also physical hardhitters. Defog is easy to get against Bisharp teams, cuz a Heat Wave on the switch almost KO's it and then it doesn't care about getting killed by +2 Knock off after Defog against Teams with dead Deoxys-D. It takes even super effective coveragemoves well, and physically defensive and specially defensive are both very good. Some calcs, cuz 90 / 85 / 90 can easily be underestimated, but like every OU player knows what a Zapdos is able to:

Def Zapdos
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 176-208 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 152-180 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 255-300 (66.4 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 214-253 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
80 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 170-200 (44.2 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 252-300 (66.1 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 187-222 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery < may not be a counter, but still checks Brave Birds very well and gets Volt Switch momentum. Even if a Flare Blitz comes, it survives with like half of its HP, which is still good.

SDef Zapdos
252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 148-175 (38.5 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 188-224 (48.9 - 58.3%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 117-139 (30.4 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 252-300 (78.7 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 172-204 (53.7 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Manectric can't even really 2HKO it after lightningrod boost. Ok, Thundurus breaks through running Nasty Plot, dealing 74.4 - 88.2% damage and being 2HKOed after Life Orb recoil. But its faster so it wins against Zappy switching in. Zapdos can come into Life Orb Thunder Wave Thundurus, which runs Focus Blast and not NP if smart player. So at least a check. It can also come into some predicted Focus Blast or Superpower. Mixed or non-Bulk Up physical Thundurus is problemless walled, as well.

b) it fits in any kind of team:

• VoltTurn / Offense: Volt Switch + Access to Defog, which fixes the hazard weakness of VoltTurn teams. As Aegislash is a problem, i often use it in my offensive teams and have good experience with it.
  
• Heavy Offense: Thinking wtf, but i tried out an RMT team running Deoxys-S suicide lead + Defog Zapdos, which worked quite well.
• Stall: Here a good pokemon too. Defog, Roar, Toxic or also Sub in combination with Roost + Thunderbolt and a coveragemove like HP [Ice] or Heat Wave is viable. SubRoost can also be run with Toxic. Walls Gengar and Aegislash again which can both be a problem for stall.
• In balanced teams it's good for like the same reasons. I run in teams of all 5 playstyles listed, and it just reks.

These facts what makes it a top OU pokemon in my opinion. Hope i dont copy some post unknowingly. :]

By the way i agree with the guy posting b4 me. Just that Togekiss would better run coverage then Thunder Wave on a Nasty Plot set in my opinion. Also Roost is better and does not waste a turn like thunder wave would on Togekiss.

 

[Rhaegar]

In my opinion, move Zapdos to A+ (we could even think of S, but no way only B+), because its my favorite pokemon just kidding:

a) it has a good defensive typing, only 2 weaknesses while checking Pinsir, Gengar, Aegislash, Latias, with some specialized spread also Latios, Talonflame, Staraptor, electric attackers like Thundurus and Manectric, also physical hardhitters. Defog is easy to get against Bisharp teams, cuz a Heat Wave on the switch almost KO's it and then it doesn't care about getting killed by +2 Knock off after Defog against Teams with dead Deoxys-D. It takes even super effective coveragemoves well, and physically defensive and specially defensive are both very good. Some calcs, cuz 90 / 85 / 90 can easily be underestimated, but like every OU player knows what a Zapdos is able to:

Def Zapdos
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 176-208 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 152-180 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 255-300 (66.4 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 214-253 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
80 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 170-200 (44.2 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 252-300 (66.1 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 187-222 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery < may not be a counter, but still checks Brave Birds very well and gets Volt Switch momentum. Even if a Flare Blitz comes, it survives with like half of its HP, which is still good.

SDef Zapdos
252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 148-175 (38.5 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 188-224 (48.9 - 58.3%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 117-139 (30.4 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 252-300 (78.7 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 172-204 (53.7 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Manectric can't even really 2HKO it after lightningrod boost. Ok, Thundurus breaks through running Nasty Plot, dealing 74.4 - 88.2% damage and being 2HKOed after Life Orb recoil. But its faster so it wins against Zappy switching in. Zapdos can come into Life Orb Thunder Wave Thundurus, which runs Focus Blast and not NP if smart player. So at least a check. It can also come into some predicted Focus Blast or Superpower. Mixed or non-Bulk Up physical Thundurus is problemless walled, as well.

b) it fits in any kind of team:

• VoltTurn / Offense: Volt Switch + Access to Defog, which fixes the hazard weakness of VoltTurn teams. As Aegislash is a problem, i often use it in my offensive teams and have good experience with it.
  
• Heavy Offense: Thinking wtf, but i tried out an RMT team running Deoxys-S suicide lead + Defog Zapdos, which worked quite well.
• Stall: Here a good pokemon too. Defog, Roar, Toxic or also Sub in combination with Roost + Thunderbolt and a coveragemove like HP [Ice] or Heat Wave is viable. SubRoost can also be run with Toxic. Walls Gengar and Aegislash again which can both be a problem for stall.
• In balanced teams it's good for like the same reasons. I run in teams of all 5 playstyles listed, and it just reks.

These facts what makes it a top OU pokemon in my opinion. Hope i dont copy some post unknowingly. :]

Zapdos is nice and all, but the fact that it's included in your name and DP along with that painful wall of calcs isn't likely to be very convincing. Otherwise valid points, yet still definitely not an A+ mon due to it's 4MSS and weakness to rocks while having to defog and being easily switched in to and threatened by a variety of things, mostly Dragons. I can surely see it coming back up to A- though since it's easily the best defensive check to both Mega Scizor and Mega Pinsir while checking Lando-I with SpDef investment. A reason Rotom was bumped to A rank is because Pinsir has gone up in usage. Zapdos is a better check since it has more reliable recovery and can even check Pinsir with a SpDef set.

 

[Mood4food77]

doesn't venomoth have to be ranked as it's BL?

doesn't it technically also need an analysis for the same reasoning?

i'm not saying move it up or down but i think it needs to be ranked for this reasoning

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Venomoth got a ranking and an analysis because it was banned from UU.

 

[Red Cat]

I don't know what the official rules for this thread are, but I don't think the fact that the UU people think it is overpowered in their tier should have any effect on what we think its viability is here in OU. If it is not viable in OU, then our rankings should reflect that.

Edit @below: Venomoth isn't OU. It's BL. I don't think we should rank it just because it happens to be caught between tiers. Maybe there should be an "unviable" category for Pokemon which are BL, but not good enough to be used in OU.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

I don't know what the official rules for this thread are, but I don't think the fact that the UU people think it is overpowered in their tier should have any effect on what we think its viability is here in OU. If it is not viable in OU, then our rankings should reflect that.

This is a resource for people to know what OU mons are good, though. If a pokemon is OU, it's ranked so people can know if it's good or not, and technically BL mons are OU.

 

[Rhaegar]

This is a resource for people to know what OU mons are good, though. If a pokemon is OU, it's ranked so people can know if it's good or not, and technically BL mons are OU.

OU - Overused, refers to the set of Pokemon which have a percentage of usage above a certain threshold (In OU battles). BL mons fall below this threshold. They are not Overused, but rather Underused yet too powerful in the UU tier.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I think it might be a good idea to clean up the lower ranks since there is some really questionable stuff down there. Here is a list of Pokemon I think should be dropped from the list entirely.

Venomoth: I don’t know why this thing is even ranked much less C rank. If you really want to quick pass Quiver Dance then Smeargle is better because it has a 100% accurate sleep move and it can run Taunt or Magic Coat in the fourth slot to stop phazing and other stuff. Its analysis was also rejected.

Celebi: Why use this over any of the higher ranked Grass types? Its defensive typing is terrible. If you want to do Nasty Plot + Baton Pass, you are probably better off using Mew which has more options for the other two moveslots and doesn’t have as many weaknesses.

Jirachi: Its analysis got rejected. It is versatile, but almost everything it can do can be done better by something else. Chansey, Sylveon, and even Umbreon are better at passing Wishes, Togekiss does ParaFlinch better, the Scarf set is very weak, and there are a ton of better SR setters out there. There are also a ton of Ground, Fire, Ghost, and Dark type moves out there to blast it.

Toxicroak: With rain now limited to 8 turns, Dry Skin just isn’t that good anymore. There is nothing about Toxicroak that makes it stand out as being good in OU.

Empoleon: Scald + Stealth Rock + Defog is unique, but is that really worth running something which is otherwise really bad? Its defensive typing isn’t that great outside of countering a few specific threats, and it has no reliable recovery. I think it belongs with Donphan, Forretress, and Tentacruel in the shitty utility Pokes category.

Also, I’m not sure if something having an analysis automatically means it must be ranked, because it is really difficult to make an argument for why someone should use things like Moltres, Snorlax, Meloetta, and Cofagrigus in OU.

Venomoth is ranked because it's banned in UU. Ask it to the UU leader.

Celebi was a pokemon that was great in Gen V but not good in Gen VI. In past gen, Celebi had the same weakness and it was viable because it can tank some moderate SE hits and has great resistances to key types. Celebi is outclassed by MVenusaur but not so much by Ammonguss (Ammonguss is one dimensional and only fits in a few types of teams).

Jirachi's problems are named Aegislash and Bisharp. It was S rank in gen V, which gives enough reason to explain new players why Jirachi is not good in the XY meta. Note that Jirachi is a pokemon who is everything but predictable. And a C- rank reflect it.

Toxicroak: Checking some of the most potent threads at the moment even it has a lot of flaws is enough reason that could be used. Although, if this pokemon is set-up bait for the majority of the tier, it can be unranked without problems.

Empoleon: Empoleon has more Special Attack than Greninja and unlike it, it can afford to run a Modest nature (at least in his natural tier). Also note that Empoleon is Water/Steel, resisting 10 types total.

 

[Giometry]

After a long break its time for another wall of text so here goes...


Weaville ==> B+ (or A- though its a stretch) Weaville is great in the current meta and its not hard to see why. A fast knock off coming off the same base attack as bisharp (although jolly vs adamant makes bisharp stronger) is amazing. It has stab Ice moves which is great in this flying infested meta. It can bring down the Lati's, Lando-I/T, Thundurus, Dragonite, Garchomp, Pinsir with no prior damage and that is incredibly useful. Ice priority is great in the meta and knock off and ice punch punish switches. It can also provide pursuit support or run low kick to be able to hit Ttar/Terak/Heatran/Kyub/Bisharp hard af or even swords dance to be a setup sweeper. Ice punch pushes its way through walls like Zapdos and gliscor as well. The push to B+ seems to be widely accepted so far and the reasons have been stated and so i propose we push it that little bit further to A-. The Choice Band set is also great. Weaville is as powerful an offensive threat as Diggersby, Mamoswine, or Breloom and deserves to rank up with them.

Gliscor ==> A- Gliscor is a very effective physical wall in the current meta and is almost on the same level as skarm. It has good recovery thanks to poison heal and protect shenanigans, can absorb knock off, and can use sub toxic to great effect. Gliscor can also use defog, stealth rock, or taunt in its last slot to provide support, or EQ or Stone Edge to not be set up bait (Stone Edge is better imo), or even U-turn for pivoting purposes. Other reasons have already been stated. Go Gliscor.

Skarmory ==> A Skarmory is amazing as a physical wall and is comparable to hippo in walling effectiveness. Not only does skarm stack up to hippo in physical walling it also checks lando I and provides hazard support, defog support, or even phazing (although i dont see why to use that over the previous two). I would like to see some discussion on this as it has been brought up before but never really discussed.

Gengar ==> A- Gengar is an amazing stallbreaker but that alone isn't really enough to warrant its current ranking. Its offensive presence on the stallbreaker set is negligible and on other sets it is simply not as threatening as last gen.
Will probably post more on him later.

Manaphy ==> B+ Although manaphy is good it simply is not as threatening as breloom or diggersby. Its offensive sets are underwhelming and its CM set can only take it so far. Again more discussion on it later.

Latios ==> A+ Latios is amazing offensively with draco hitting like a truck and having a plethora of coverage options to cover its checks. Latios hits really hard, checks the oh so powerful dragons (Zard X, Dragonite, Garchomp) as well as many other offensive threats (Keldeo, Pisir, Landorus, Terrakion, Zard Y, etc) with just the combination of Psyshock and Draco. After that it can run surf for grounds and heatran, eq for heatran, or thunderbolt for azumarill. When latios comes in and the enemy has no living fairy something is getting hit hard (and often dies).

Scizor ==> A- The choice band set is still great as its bullet punch hits like a truck and can revenge many common threats. U-Turn provides momentum and still hits hard. Also Pursuit support is always nice for those pesky lati's that just so happen to no longer run hp fire.

Scolipede ==> A-(possible even A) Scolipede is absolutely amazing these days and you don't have to look hard to see why. Its quickpassing creates monsters out of physical threats, its offensive spiker set provides nice pressure and sets up easily, it is crucial to 3BP (very effective IMO), and its sweeper set hits very hard and snowballs with its speed boost. Scolipede also has the ability to 1 shot Deo-D with megahorn which is invaluable today as it means no hazards for the Deo player and a free 6-5 game.

Zapdos ==> A- It counters Bisharp and Bird spam as well as providing strong walling capabilities and still hitting hard. I won't delve too deeply here as most of its reasoning has already been said.

Amoonguss ==> B+ Amoonguss is a vital asset in stall as well as being a decent pivot. It does what Defensive Mega Venu did (but slightly worse) while not taking up a mega slot. It was B+ before if i remember right and it deserves to be there again.

Conkeldurr ==> C+/B- Oh how the mighty have fallen... Conkeldurr just isn't good anymore as its prepared for without trying on almost every team, bird spam trashes it, and the psychic coverage used for Venusaur causes it to die to any offensive team. Also Aegislash ruins it like it does so many pokes.

Blissey ==> Unranked as of now there is literally no reason to use this in OU because chansey exists, why is it still on the list.

 

[ItoI6]

i agree with gliscor for A-, at first people thought subtoxic was its only viable set and was good enough for b+ rank even with only one set, now people are exploring spec def sets to check lando which gives it enough versatility for a bump imo. Knock off/sub/toxic/eq also lures in levitators like latios/gengar/balloon aegis while still doing a decent job at stalling.

 

[Salemance]

After a long break its time for another wall of text so here goes...


Weaville ==> B+ (or A- though its a stretch) Weaville is great in the current meta and its not hard to see why. A fast knock off coming off the same base attack as bisharp (although jolly vs adamant makes bisharp stronger) is amazing. It has stab Ice moves which is great in this flying infested meta. It can bring down the Lati's, Lando-I/T, Thundurus, Dragonite, Garchomp, Pinsir with no prior damage and that is incredibly useful. Ice priority is great in the meta and knock off and ice punch punish switches. It can also provide pursuit support or run low kick to be able to hit Ttar/Terak/Heatran/Kyub/Bisharp hard af or even swords dance to be a setup sweeper. Ice punch pushes its way through walls like Zapdos and gliscor as well. The push to B+ seems to be widely accepted so far and the reasons have been stated and so i propose we push it that little bit further to A-. The Choice Band set is also great. Weaville is as powerful an offensive threat as Diggersby, Mamoswine, or Breloom and deserves to rank up with them.

Gliscor ==> A- Gliscor is a very effective physical wall in the current meta and is almost on the same level as skarm. It has good recovery thanks to poison heal and protect shenanigans, can absorb knock off, and can use sub toxic to great effect. Gliscor can also use defog, stealth rock, or taunt in its last slot to provide support, or EQ or Stone Edge to not be set up bait (Stone Edge is better imo), or even U-turn for pivoting purposes. Other reasons have already been stated. Go Gliscor.

Skarmory ==> A Skarmory is amazing as a physical wall and is comparable to hippo in walling effectiveness. Not only does skarm stack up to hippo in physical walling it also checks lando I and provides hazard support, defog support, or even phazing (although i dont see why to use that over the previous two). I would like to see some discussion on this as it has been brought up before but never really discussed.

Gengar ==> A- Gengar is an amazing stallbreaker but that alone isn't really enough to warrant its current ranking. Its offensive presence on the stallbreaker set is negligible and on other sets it is simply not as threatening as last gen.
Will probably post more on him later.

Manaphy ==> B+ Although manaphy is good it simply is not as threatening as breloom or diggersby. Its offensive sets are underwhelming and its CM set can only take it so far. Again more discussion on it later.

Latios ==> A+ Latios is amazing offensively with draco hitting like a truck and having a plethora of coverage options to cover its checks. Latios hits really hard, checks the oh so powerful dragons (Zard X, Dragonite, Garchomp) as well as many other offensive threats (Keldeo, Pisir, Landorus, Terrakion, Zard Y, etc) with just the combination of Psyshock and Draco. After that it can run surf for grounds and heatran, eq for heatran, or thunderbolt for azumarill. When latios comes in and the enemy has no living fairy something is getting hit hard (and often dies).

Scizor ==> A- The choice band set is still great as its bullet punch hits like a truck and can revenge many common threats. U-Turn provides momentum and still hits hard. Also Pursuit support is always nice for those pesky lati's that just so happen to no longer run hp fire.

Scolipede ==> A-(possible even A) Scolipede is absolutely amazing these days and you don't have to look hard to see why. Its quickpassing creates monsters out of physical threats, its offensive spiker set provides nice pressure and sets up easily, it is crucial to 3BP (very effective IMO), and its sweeper set hits very hard and snowballs with its speed boost. Scolipede also has the ability to 1 shot Deo-D with megahorn which is invaluable today as it means no hazards for the Deo player and a free 6-5 game.

Zapdos ==> A- It counters Bisharp and Bird spam as well as providing strong walling capabilities and still hitting hard. I won't delve too deeply here as most of its reasoning has already been said.

Amoonguss ==> B+ Amoonguss is a vital asset in stall as well as being a decent pivot. It does what Defensive Mega Venu did (but slightly worse) while not taking up a mega slot. It was B+ before if i remember right and it deserves to be there again.

Conkeldurr ==> C+/B- Oh how the mighty have fallen... Conkeldurr just isn't good anymore as its prepared for without trying on almost every team, bird spam trashes it, and the psychic coverage used for Venusaur causes it to die to any offensive team. Also Aegislash ruins it like it does so many pokes.

Blissey ==> Unranked as of now there is literally no reason to use this in OU because chansey exists, why is it still on the list.

I'm only gonna bring up two of your points.

STOP BRINGING UP BLISSEY BEING UNRANKED PEOPLE! ITS GETTING NOWHERE AS IT ENDS THE SAME WAY EVERY DAMN TIME!

*coughs*

Gengar was recently talked about moving up and was said to stay in A rank due to its general frailty. The reason Gengar is in such a stature is because its offense presence is much more threatening than last gen due to its STAB being able to hit Steels, so im confused where you are getting the idea of it not being as threatening as it was last gen. It is able to run so many sets outside of its stallbreaker, thus you never know what the hell it can do. SubDisable, Destiny Bond + 3 Attacks, the list can go on really on what and how this simple Gen 1 Ghost can do whats best for its team. Its powerful and fast enough to do whatever it really wants, yet to say its urrent ranking is only do to its stallbreaking set is a little short sighted as the culmination of its varying sets and great stat distribution are what Gengar capable of being A rank.

 

[MilkyWay]

I originally posted about moving Weavile up to B+ from B- and it seems to have a lot of support and literally no one has opposed it. I would also support Weavile for A- if enough people agree but that could be a stretch. My original post is here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3502428/page-136#post-5537484

While I don't have the time to restate all of my arguments, i will sum up the most important ones. Weavile has a great offensive typing for this metagame because many physical walls are weak to it. The premiere psychical walls such as gliscor, landorus-t, latias, aegilash, slowbro, mandibuzz, zapdos, and hippowdon are all weak to either dark or ice. With a base 125 speed and a base 120 attack along with a super effective STAB against the best walls sweeping late game or wall breaking isnt that hard for Weavile.

It also has Ice Shard to mitigate problems it could have with faster threats, such as Breloom's mach punch, thunderus's thunder wave, scarfed garchomp, scarfed landorus-t, rock polish landorus i, and dragonite after a dragon dance. Finally, after Knock Off, Ice Punch, and Ice Shard it can choose between low kick, swords dance or pursuit. Low kick stops would be counters in tyranitar and bisharp. Swords Dance makes it a lot easier for Weavile to sweep, and pursuit helps out the whole team by getting rid of the lati@s, gengar, aegilash, etc.

It is also insulting that something like Lucario is ranked above Weavile when Weavile sort of outclasses it, meaning that Weavile is faster and stronger, has swords dance, has good coverage, and priority.

 

[Nog]

I originally posted about moving Weavile up to B+ from B- and it seems to have a lot of support and literally no one has opposed it. I would also support Weavile for A- if enough people agree but that could be a stretch. My original post is here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3502428/page-136#post-5537484

While I don't have the time to restate all of my arguments, i will sum up the most important ones. Weavile has a great offensive typing for this metagame because many physical walls are weak to it. The premiere psychical walls such as gliscor, landorus-t, latias, aegilash, slowbro, mandibuzz, zapdos, and hippowdon are all weak to either dark or ice. With a base 125 speed and a base 120 attack along with a super effective STAB against the best walls sweeping late game or wall breaking isnt that hard for Weavile.

It also has Ice Shard to mitigate problems it could have with faster threats, such as Breloom's mach punch, thunderus's thunder wave, scarfed garchomp, scarfed landorus-t, rock polish landorus i, and dragonite after a dragon dance. Finally, after Knock Off, Ice Punch, and Ice Shard it can choose between low kick, swords dance or pursuit. Low kick stops would be counters in tyranitar and bisharp. Swords Dance makes it a lot easier for Weavile to sweep, and pursuit helps out the whole team by getting rid of the lati@s, gengar, aegilash, etc.

It is also insulting that something like Lucario is ranked above Weavile when Weavile sort of outclasses it, meaning that Weavile is faster and stronger, has swords dance, has good coverage, and priority.

Not even close to A-...B+ is the highest it will ever go and it needs to be B more so than B+.

 

[Jacks0n]

I originally posted about moving Weavile up to B+ from B- and it seems to have a lot of support and literally no one has opposed it. I would also support Weavile for A- if enough people agree but that could be a stretch. My original post is here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3502428/page-136#post-5537484

While I don't have the time to restate all of my arguments, i will sum up the most important ones. Weavile has a great offensive typing for this metagame because many physical walls are weak to it. The premiere psychical walls such as gliscor, landorus-t, latias, aegilash, slowbro, mandibuzz, zapdos, and hippowdon are all weak to either dark or ice. With a base 125 speed and a base 120 attack along with a super effective STAB against the best walls sweeping late game or wall breaking isnt that hard for Weavile.

It also has Ice Shard to mitigate problems it could have with faster threats, such as Breloom's mach punch, thunderus's thunder wave, scarfed garchomp, scarfed landorus-t, rock polish landorus i, and dragonite after a dragon dance. Finally, after Knock Off, Ice Punch, and Ice Shard it can choose between low kick, swords dance or pursuit. Low kick stops would be counters in tyranitar and bisharp. Swords Dance makes it a lot easier for Weavile to sweep, and pursuit helps out the whole team by getting rid of the lati@s, gengar, aegilash, etc.

It is also insulting that something like Lucario is ranked above Weavile when Weavile sort of outclasses it, meaning that Weavile is faster and stronger, has swords dance, has good coverage, and priority.

lol weavile should not be B+ at all. B is possible tho. The pros of weavile is that is has an awesome speed tier, with 4 attacks LO it can punsish bisharp/ttar with low kick, a ton of pokemon with knock off and also destroy pokemon with ice punch and shard. I have actually used weavile and its great speed and good power and decent coveredge makes it a viable threat, but ofc there is the cons. Weavile is stopped by common pokemon such as azum, keldeo, mega scizor, terrakion, loom, healthy skarm ect. Since it is really frail and is stopped by quite a few threats really stops it from being B+. But, if it gets enough support I am completely fine with it moving up to B because it has great speed, awesome offencive typing for OU, good power and is actually quite anti-meta.

also lucario has Sd aswell as better priority in espeed lol.

 

[MicfiJasan]

Since there's been some talk about lower-ranked mons, I want to propose dropping Hydreigon to C- rank. It's analysis was rejected over a month ago, and nothing's really changed to make it more viable again. To summarize the points of the QC team: it's too slow to beat offense, will be walled by either Chansey or Clefable so it can't break stall, and most importantly is almost completely outclassed by Kyurem-B. It can check Aegislash, so it does have a small niche over the wall-breaking dragons, but I feel that niche is more fitted to a lower rank. I might be able to see C since Blissey/Chandelure/etc seem similarly outclassed (but I'd kind of like to see some of them drop to C- as well), but I definitely think it at least needs to drop somewhere.

 

[Rhaegar]

I originally posted about moving Weavile up to B+ from B- and it seems to have a lot of support and literally no one has opposed it. I would also support Weavile for A- if enough people agree but that could be a stretch. My original post is here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3502428/page-136#post-5537484

While I don't have the time to restate all of my arguments, i will sum up the most important ones. Weavile has a great offensive typing for this metagame because many physical walls are weak to it. The premiere psychical walls such as gliscor, landorus-t, latias, aegilash, slowbro, mandibuzz, zapdos, and hippowdon are all weak to either dark or ice. With a base 125 speed and a base 120 attack along with a super effective STAB against the best walls sweeping late game or wall breaking isnt that hard for Weavile.

It also has Ice Shard to mitigate problems it could have with faster threats, such as Breloom's mach punch, thunderus's thunder wave, scarfed garchomp, scarfed landorus-t, rock polish landorus i, and dragonite after a dragon dance. Finally, after Knock Off, Ice Punch, and Ice Shard it can choose between low kick, swords dance or pursuit. Low kick stops would be counters in tyranitar and bisharp. Swords Dance makes it a lot easier for Weavile to sweep, and pursuit helps out the whole team by getting rid of the lati@s, gengar, aegilash, etc.

It is also insulting that something like Lucario is ranked above Weavile when Weavile sort of outclasses it, meaning that Weavile is faster and stronger, has swords dance, has good coverage, and priority.

Thing is, Weavile is too frail to bring in even on resisted hits. HP invested Lucario can come into Bisharp's Knock Off, getting the Justified boost, then set up to +3 and proceed to sweep with Espeed. For things that resist Espeed (Mawile, Bisharp, Scizor), Bullet Punch in addition to Sucker Punch (which gives it another +1) are resisted so Luke can just CC for the kill. +2 Ice Shard isn't as threatening and has a few more common resists.

 

[alexwolf]

Venomoth: I don’t know why this thing is even ranked much less C rank. If you really want to quick pass Quiver Dance then Smeargle is better because it has a 100% accurate sleep move and it can run Taunt or Magic Coat in the fourth slot to stop phazing and other stuff. Its analysis was also rejected.

Venomoth has Wonder Skin, which helps a lot against Prankster Thundurus and phazing, while also having actual resistances and bulk to help it set up on stuff such as Ferrothorn (With Sub), Mega Venusaur, and Gengar.

Celebi: Why use this over any of the higher ranked Grass types? Its defensive typing is terrible. If you want to do Nasty Plot + Baton Pass, you are probably better off using Mew which has more options for the other two moveslots and doesn’t have as many weaknesses.

Because it checks Keldeo like no other, can hit hard with decent coverage, has Recover + Natural Cure which is useful for hard countering Rotom-W and other Water-types, can act as a pivot with U-turn / Baton Pass, and has an array of useful support moves, such as Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Perish Song, and Heal Bell.

Jirachi: Its analysis got rejected. It is versatile, but almost everything it can do can be done better by something else. Chansey, Sylveon, and even Umbreon are better at passing Wishes, Togekiss does ParaFlinch better, the Scarf set is very weak, and there are a ton of better SR setters out there. There are also a ton of Ground, Fire, Ghost, and Dark type moves out there to blast it.

Haven't used it or faced it for ages, but in theory i think it should drop to D rank or even unranked.

Toxicroak: With rain now limited to 8 turns, Dry Skin just isn’t that good anymore. There is nothing about Toxicroak that makes it stand out as being good in OU.

STAB Gunk Shot to OHKO Clefable, ability to set up on or check some unique list of Pokemon thanks to typing (Mega Venusaur, Chansey, choice locked Azumarill and Keldeo, Breloom after Sleep Clause has been activated, Terrakion), and Sucker Punch are all unique traits that Toxicroak has over other Fighting-types, and give it a niche, although very small, in OU.

Empoleon: Scald + Stealth Rock + Defog is unique, but is that really worth running something which is otherwise really bad? Its defensive typing isn’t that great outside of countering a few specific threats, and it has no reliable recovery. I think it belongs with Donphan, Forretress, and Tentacruel in the shitty utility Pokes category.

Unlike all those Pokemon you mentioned, Empoleon has no competition at its niche of a bulky Water-type with SR + Defog, so even though this niche is very limited, it's still way better than what the other Pokemon you mentioned can do. Also, Specs can check Clefable and act as a decent hard hitter and tank in general, and has no hard counters outside of Chansey (and Ferro, but you can use Hidden Power Fire).

doesn't venomoth have to be ranked as it's BL?

doesn't it technically also need an analysis for the same reasoning?

i'm not saying move it up or down but i think it needs to be ranked for this reasoning

We only rank whatever is viable in OU, and Venomoth is ranked because it's viable, not because it has an analysis. Any BL or OU Pokemon has to get an analysis, not a rank in the viability list. The only criteria for something to get ranked in the viability list is, you know, viability.

Oh and echoing Nog, no way Weavile is moving to B+ rank, B is the highest it would go and even that is iffy.

Finally, please people stop bringing up C and D rank Pokemon just for the sake of it. It is obvious that many of you haven't used those Pokemon and are bringing up discussion about them just because, but unfocused discussion about them can get pretty ugly pretty fast. So, unless it seems from your post that you have actually used the low rank Pokemon you are talking about, your post will get deleted.

Be ready for an update later today or tomorrow btw.