Resource LC Viability Rankings

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Aerow

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B Rank looks solid. :) Will make a nomination list later for C Rank, but there are a ton of mons there I need to try first.
 

tcr

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I support amaura for b- but its not really reliant on hp tho. It only needs to run hp fight to beat pawniard.
 

chimp

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I'll have a go:
C+
Amaura [cool ability, typing hurts it but it still can be good]
Bellsprout [fantastic under the sun]
Corphish [powerful, adaptability Aqua Jet, knock off, dragon dance, and has some bulk]
Drifloon [lots of fun sets, can go supportive or offensive and find success in both]
Elekid [reasonably powerful, good coverage, and fast fast fast fast]
Frillish [bulky with decent coverage and recovery]
Hippopotas [sweet bulk and support moves like SR and whirlwind]
Mantyke [very specially bulky and fantastic rain sweeper if you run that way]
Magby [mostly same as elekid and more... BD + Mach Punch is oh shit fucking run]
Purrloin [prankster]
Shellder [powerful SS, good coverage]
Spinarak [sticky web, sucker punch, toxic spikes]
Staryu [fast, decently powerful, good abilities and coverage]
Surskit [probably best sticky webber]

C
Bulbasaur [less potent than bellsprout but still has a niche as sun sweeper]
Darumaka [can be very hard to switch in on, though its counters are quite common. Recoil and accuracy a bitch]
Dratini [better than axew, has a couple of cool sets. Extremespeed is noice]
Froakie [interesting and really hard to kill if played right]
Goldeen [decent bulk and only one weakness... also knock off.]
Growlithe [intimidate and WoW make physical attackers scared]
Honedge [powerful sweeper with some intersting moves]
Lileep [bulky... typing is a let down in the current meta]
Oddish [a lot like bulbasaur I guess]
Dog [woof woof woof]
Pancham [Parting Shot!]
Poliwag [really hard to stop once it gets going. Its fast, and hypnosis + belly drum will have you cursing your luck]
Shellos [lol knock off lol]
Tentacool [good at setting up Tspikes... reasonably bulky on the special side... but physical attacks scare it]

C-
Aron [cool poke, but its typing is kill]
Axew [meh]
Binacle [outclassed shell smasher, still pretty powerful though]
Cranidos [powerful glass cannon but otherwise meh]
Grimer [has its niche in sticky hold and poison typing.]
Inkay [can be dangerous if it can set up... rarely can find the time to do so though.]
Meowth [meh]
Snover [poor tree misses its viability]
Tyrunt [coverage....]
Wooper [unaware would be awesome if it actually had the bulk to really abuse it]
 
Rowan I definitely agree with Elekid for B-. When I was playtesting Elekid for the analysis, I was extremely pleased with the results I received. Cross Chop is an amazing coverage move Elekid, has, which allows it to bypass many would-be counters like Portygon, Lickitung and Munchlax. Shellder is also a really cool pokemon right now.

EDIT: I still feel like Gastly should be in B+!
 
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Anthiese

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Yo the OP has been updated. I'd like some discussion on Aipom since Artemis Fowl keeps bringing it up and it probably shouldn't be E-Rank, and people can feel free to start splitting up the 37 Pokemon that currently reside in C-rank.


edit: this isn't a preliminary list, these are just my nominations

amaura - purely because of its ability to beat pretty much all flying types i want it B-. Has pretty good attack, but needs to rely on Hidden Power for coverage which can sometimes be weak which is the only reason it can't go higher than B-. Scarf Amaura beats the FletchDig core with rock support (incase sash). Refrigerate Tri-Attack is pretty fucking strong on anything that doesn't resist.
binacle - Shell Smasher that can perform well as a late game sweeper and sets its side apart as the only Shell Smasher which doesn't worry about Ferroseed, without resorting to Hidden Power Fire.
elekid - outspeeding the entire meta without being choice-locked is a pretty good niche and Mixed sets can be a pain to deal with. Good coverage allows it to get past quite a few threats and can make it unpredictable.
shellder - good smasher, dunno why it's in C. Only smasher to beat Abra as well. Pure Normal typing with Good Defense and Ice Shard to KO bulky Fletchling (after Rocks) means it's the only smasher not easily revenged by one of Timburr or Fletchling. With Knock Off Support, Icicle Spear/Rock Blast should basically KO everything due to multi-hit moves having weird rolls


aron - decent enough sturdyjuice mon can set up rocks and has okay attack + metal burts. deffo one of the top C-rank mons.
axew - nice set up sweeper, completely walled by spritzee, and cottonee is annoying as always but can sweep with some support
bellsprout - chlorophyll puts it C+ imo
bulbasaur - same as bellsprout
corphish - good wallbreaker with adaptability, also gets switcheroo which is cool. Swords Dance and Dragon Dance can be used to pull off a sweep too.
cranidos - fantastic wallbreaker (wouldn't even mind seeing B- tbh) with amazing attack, sheer force+LO and 16 speed isn't bad at all, it just has the ability to hit everything hard
darumaka - similar to Cranidos but Hustle misses are annoying as fuck. access to U-turn is cool but hazard weak and reliance on scarf for speed means it shouldn't be going up to B anytime soon.
lileep - good wall with great bulk but doesn't have much of a place in the current metagame which is why it's not up there in B tier.
magby - Belly Drum, 19 Speed and Mach Punch puts it at the top of C rank, but can easily be stopped by faster priority and scarfers cos Mach Punch isn't always the strongest
oddish - same as bellsprout and bulbasaur
staryu - good spinner just lost its niche with defog mechanics in gen 6 and Drilbur is more suited to the current metagame.
surskit - best sticky web layer which is a niche that should be recognised
tentacool - really unique typing allowing it to wall Fire-types, Grass-types, Fairy-types AND Fighting-types, liquid ooze really pisses off grass/fighting types especially, and toxic spikes is a cool niche. fantastic Special Defense too. (also a contender for B- imo)


dratini - okay set up sweeper and can run mixed LO wallbreaker as well to give it some unpredictability
drifloon - good unburden mon but generally outclassed by other Ghosts+Flyers
frillish - good defensive stats but doesn't wall anything that notable in the current metagame
hippopotas - good physical wall, can take on most physical attackers but its easy to switch in and needs to run coverage to not be a liability against certain pokemon. overreliant on eviolite too.
growlithe - decent physical wall, good option to take on opposing fire-types but most of the time you should be using ponyta
mantyke - can run a cool rain dance set (probably the best RD sweeper) and can also run a bulky restalk set to take on grass/fighting types.
pancham - good niche in partin shot but finds it hard to fit on a team with the amount of viable fighting-types and lack of drain punch
snover - Blizzard is pretty fucking strong tbh but Snover is weak to most of the top metagame threats.
poliwag - belly drummer with 19 speed but lacks coverage and can easy be walled by quite a lot.
purrloin - pretty good support mon with prio encore, taunt along with u-turn and knock off. doesn't have too much of a notable niche to allow it to be higher imo.
tyrunt - okay defensive typing but no recovery and i'd rather use onix or some other rock-type


froakie - gets STAB on everything but it's still kind of underwhelming and there are much better revenge killers/wallbreakers out there
goldeen - lightningrod is a cool niche and it has okay physical offense but it's not really strong enough most of the time and Chinchou usually outclasses it due to its better defensive typing.
grimer - sticky hold is cool but no recovery and there are better physical tanks
honedge - since meditite went honedge struggles to find a niche and the current metagame isn't friendly to it
inkay - contrary superpower is overated as fuck, but inkay isn't too bad that it doesn't deserve c-
meowth - idk why you'd put this on a team tbh, it's quite weak and only a strong fake out alongside technician thief and covet give it a tiny niche. not worth it most of the time
shellos - sticky hold could make it a good mon for a stall team, but it needs a lot of support with hazard removal otherwise it could find loads of 3hkos turning into 2hkos. massive momentum loser as well.
spinarak - sticky web+tspikes is cool and it probably has a better defensive typing than surskit but if you want sticky web, go for surskit 9 times out of 10
Alrighty it's my turn and some of these mons i havent used :I so i'll cover what i know for now and see what i can do about the rest

INITIAL LIST with reasons
C+
Meowth: Fake Out/Covet + Normal Gem + Technician is amazing, Altho cant do shit to Snub/Missy/Wow users/Fighters. Bite vs Knock Off is a huge thing as well.
Aron: Sturdy + BJ strong. Also shout out to Fizz for his HM + RP set that 6-0'd monofairy
Corphish: Potent af wallbreaker with DD
Cranidos: Scarf or LO, this monster beats all SS/Sturdy mons
Lileep: Bulky wall who safeguards water weaknesses. Weak af to Pawn and is set up bait to anyone who doesnt care about Toxic/STABs
Surskit: Fastest Sticky Web user (at 17 speed) Also can set up Rain if needs be.
Tentacool: TSpiker with Spin and good Speed/SDef, Terrorizes Leech Seed/Drain Punch users as well.
Purrloin: Dark typed Cottonee with less bulk, Great at disrupting anything really.
Axew: DDing super dragon with really high Atk, slightly needs set up time and even then has issues muscling past Spritzee
Shellos: Strong Water typed wall who absorbs knock offs and can burn offenders with Scald.

C
Bulbasaur: Chlorophyll Sweeper, Fastest, Best movepool
Oddish: Chlorophyll Sweeper, hits the hardest Specially
Bellsprout: Chlorophyll Sweeper, Can hit from both ends equally
Dratini: LO + DD is still amazing after it's fall from gen 4
Drifloon: Ghost/Flying is unique, Acrobling isnt here this gen but CM +BJ is hot as well as DBond shenanigans
Hippopotas: Sand + Wall is greatness, WW vs Rock Slide is a big choice
Mantyke: Best RD Set up sweeper, Amazing SDef
Pancham: Scarf + Parting Shot is great, Scrappy Strom Throw to nail Ghost/Resists
Magby: Elekid's brother with Belly Drum and lots of hot fire action
Frillish:Knock Off weak wall that loves to also run Scarf Water Spout
Staryu: 19 Speed Spinner + NC is alright i suppose but you're not doing much else after that :(

C-
Honedge: SD + Auto for boosting moves, No Guard = free Wow
Inkay: OTR with Contrary boost or Scarf + Dbond shenanigans
Spinarak: Web + Swarm Megahorn is all this guy got
Tyrunt: Okay typing but boned by Fighting mons, it's only hope is AA but shitty option
Darumaka: Hustle hits SUPER HARD but gods if you cna hit it, plus needs scarf to be useful imo
Grimer: Worse Trubbish with no Recycle is bleh
Froakie: amazing options but terrible stats

MOVING TO B MONS
Amaura: Biggest check to Birdspam since SR, Shitty movepool though, (wants EPower SO BAD), Also can run a physical set which as well
Shellder: Multihits a bitch. Add SS and you got a monster. Shitty SDef isnt mitigates well by Evio after the boost
Elekid: 20 Spe and a strong mixed movepool yet it's lacking a few options. Nonetheless this plug in is strong and lasts a bit.
Binacle: A SSer i dont know much about, All i've seen is that it doesnt need to rely on HP Fire to beat Ferro. I dont know much else so i'll try it out and see what else it can do.


I got some testing to do~
 
I completely agree with Meowth being C+, Jac. Meowth is really good and very fun to use. Meowth has amwzing utility,and sets up pokemon like Shell Smashers, Nasty Plott Misdreavus and Belly Drummers with the ability to sweep through would-be counters by stealing their Berry Juices and Eviolites, most importantly. Meowth also has the ability to two hit KO Misdreavus with Thief OR Knock Off. The only pokemon that Meowth has problems with is Pawniard. I have even been using HPFight on Meowth for Pawn switch-ins, and it even OHKOs it while being JOLLY. Technician is an amqzing ability, and Meowth utilizes it beautifully.

I think Aipom should be placed in B-. Eviolitr has amazing utility, and is a lot bulkier than people give it credit for. Life Orb Aipom.has the abikity to clean beautifully, but loses utility in its ability to not be able to Knock Off as much. Both sets have notable flaws, but they are both really good and very fun to use.
 

Camden

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Here's my preliminary rankings for C:

C+:

Amaura*
Aron
Bellsprout
Binacle*
Corphish*
Cranidos
Elekid*
Growlithe
Lileep*
Meowth
Shellder*
Shellos
Staryu


C:

Axew
Bulbasaur
Darumaka
Dratini
Drifloon
Frillish
Froakie
Goldeen
Hippopotas
Mantyke
Magby
Pancham
Poliwag
Purrloin
Snover
Surskit
Tentacool

C-:

Grimer
Honedge
Inkay
Oddish
Spinarak
Tyrunt
Wooper

*Considering these for B- or higher.


This could still use work, but I'm pretty confident with most of the choices.
 
Aipom AT BEST deserves C+. Fury Swipes is extremely overrated as it I'd just weak without a Life Orb (Honestly though just use Mincinno for that. It's got a wide movepool for covering many threats, but the buck really ends there. Tbh there's not much of a reason to use It over chilla outside of a speed point
 
Okay, here goes my list. (Reasonings will be added when forums aren't shitty)

Elekid
Shellder


Aipom
Amaura (maybe B-)
Corphish (maybe B-)
Growlithe
Lileep
Mantyke
Magby
Meowth
Staryu
Tentacool

Aron
Bellsprout
Binacle (maybe C+)
Bulbasaur
Cranidos
Darumaka
Oddish
Pancham
Purrloin
Shellos
Snover
Surskit
Tyrunt

Axew
Frillish
Froakie
Goldeen
Grimer
Honedge
Inkay
Poliwag
Spinarak
Wooper

Buneary
Gothorita
Minccino


So, forums are being terrible and uncooperative for me. I will edit in reasons when they're not as shit.
 
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Max Carvalho

Que os jogos comecem
Aipom AT BEST deserves C+. Fury Swipes is extremely overrated as it I'd just weak without a Life Orb (Honestly though just use Mincinno for that. It's got a wide movepool for covering many threats, but the buck really ends there. Tbh there's not much of a reason to use It over chilla outside of a speed point
I agree with you about Fury Swipes being overrated, but Aipom is stronger in any other moves comparing with Minccino. Comparing it to Aipom makes me sad lol. Minccino does have better coverage moves, but Aipom has Brick Break which KOes Pawniard. Minccino is just murdered by Pawniard. Aipom has access to Taunt, so Aipom isn't just a wallbreaker; it is also an effective anti-lead. Aipom bulk is usable (again, comparing with Minccino, both holding Eviolite, and giving 76 HP EVs for both, Aipom gets 23 HP 18 Def, 18 Special Def while Minccino only gets 23 HP, 15 Def and 15 Special Def. Any decent Fighting-type attack KOes Minccino, while Aipom survives.) and Fury Swipes does the amount of damage needed without Life Orb. Speed tying with Misdreavus is very useful. Man, there are a lot of reasons you would use Aipom over Minccino (btw, most Minccino runs Adamant.).

This is just an example: 196 Atk Aipom Fury Swipes (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-20 (71.4 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO while 196+ Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-20 (71.4 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Yes this is Aipom without Life Orb and Jolly. Comparing bulk: 236 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Aipom: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO while 236 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Minccino: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO. Again, only examples, but most neutral hits only 3HKO Aipom. Minccino, due to its bulk and usually less speed is easily revenge killed. While Minccino Tail Slap is indeed very powerful, it doesn't have its power its other moves without Life Orb.

Finnaly, let's see the 3 S-rank mon. Mienfoo usually wins against both, tho Evio Aipom has a 47% chance to beat offensive one. Pawniard murders Minccino, but Aipom wins against Pawn. Missy can just burn Minccino and done while Aipom threatens Misdreavus due to the speed tie. That's it, Aipom has solid chances to beat two of the most common Pokemon in the tier, while Minccino can't beat none of them. So I am supporting Aipom for B+ due to A) It's an effective anti-lead, with Taunt and outspeeding all common leads. Btw, it stops any kind of set up sweeper. B) Incredible wallbreaker, 2HKOing all the meta which doesn't resist Fury Swipes, while outspeeding it too. C) Has all its coverage moves it needs with elemental punches, Brick Break and even Gunk Shot to aim Spritzee. Access to U-turn allows Aipom to create momentum, specially due to its causing a lot of switches D) Has a extensive movepool with a lot of fun options that could work such as Hone Claws and Baton Pass. Shame on Aipom that it doesn't get Tail Slap or a better typing, but it's better than Minccino, that's it. I will latter make a C-rank list too.
 

apt-get

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Aipom AT BEST deserves C+. Fury Swipes is extremely overrated as it I'd just weak without a Life Orb (Honestly though just use Mincinno for that. It's got a wide movepool for covering many threats, but the buck really ends there. Tbh there's not much of a reason to use It over chilla outside of a speed point
196 Atk Aipom Fury Swipes (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 15-20 (78.9 - 105.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

Yes, aipom is "weak"

It plain outclasses minccino, tail slap is sometimes weaker than aipom's fury swipes... minccino has nothing over aipom
 
I think I need to note a few things before anyone passes judgement on the matter of Aipom compared to Minccino. (I don't care where Aipom ends up, I just don't want unfair comparisons)

I agree with you about Fury Swipes being overrated, but Aipom is stronger in any other moves comparing with Minccino. Comparing it to Aipom makes me sad lol. Minccino does have better coverage moves, but Aipom has Brick Break which KOes Pawniard. Minccino is just murdered by Pawniard. Aipom has access to Taunt, so Aipom isn't just a wallbreaker; it is also an effective anti-lead. Aipom bulk is usable (again, comparing with Minccino, both holding Eviolite, and giving 76 HP EVs for both, Aipom gets 23 HP 18 Def, 18 Special Def while Minccino only gets 23 HP, 15 Def and 15 Special Def. Any decent Fighting-type attack KOes Minccino, while Aipom survives.) and Fury Swipes does the amount of damage needed without Life Orb. Speed tying with Misdreavus is very useful. Man, there are a lot of reasons you would use Aipom over Minccino (btw, most Minccino runs Adamant.).
(Bolded Text is what I'm addressing)

Minccino has access to Wake Up Slap, which KOs 0/36/36 Eviolite Pawniard 100% of the time, so that first part isn't really true.
Idk why most Minccinos would run Adamant, since with Life Orb they do the same damage to targets Like BulkyFoo and Spritzee, and Jolly lets you outspeed Mienfoo and KO any Eviolite set running the very same 0/36/0 bulk after literally 1 damage.

196 Atk Aipom Fury Swipes (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 15-20 (78.9 - 105.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

Yes, aipom is "weak"

It plain outclasses minccino, tail slap is sometimes weaker than aipom's fury swipes... minccino has nothing over aipom
If both Aipom and Minccino are running Jolly Life Orb, Tail Slap will will always be at least as strong (and more accurate I guess) and can deal more damage on targets with Eviolite intact. Adamant Life Orb Aipom can simulate this damage, and still keep the the extra bulk, though it basically just becomes a slightly better Minccino.

Oh, and it has Encore over Aipom, gives it some utility.

I can easily see Aipom at B-rank, idk where though since I don't think it "outclasses" Minccino by such a significant margin.
 
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I haven't used or seen Aipom frequently enough to judge its place yet although it should definitely get out of E but I would like to talk about Moving Corphish to B-

Its such a good wallbreaker, with a spread of 196 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spe it reaches 18 attack and 14 defense without factoring in Eviolite boost. A 100 BP STAB (Crabhammer) backed up with Adaptability is a great move to spam since Water is a rather good offensive type too, only resisted by Dragon, Grass and Water. Corphish does some real damage to Pokemon without Eviolite

196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and without Eviolite

196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Mienfoo: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

It has access to Knock Off which aids in its wallbreaking ability, luring in things like Foongus and Chinchou and removing their Eviolites and Berry Juices. To add on to its coverage it has Superpower which is a massive bonus because it often catches Porygon and Ferroseed switchings by suprise which are 2HKO'd by Superpower

196+ Atk Corphish Superpower vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 14-18 (53.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Corphish Superpower vs. 0 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 12-16 (60 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and I'm pretty sure its garunteed a KO on Ferroseed with Knock Off + Superpower and has a very high chance of doing the same to Porygon.

Having priority in Aqua Jet is amazing backed up with Adaptability and 18 Attack, it allows Corphish to revenge kill weakened threats kill Abra on its Sash, Pokemon with Sturdy Etc and makes use of its low speed (13)

While it is kinda a one trick pony it is good at what it does and it does have a few other options like Dragon Dance and Swords Dance.

it is walled by common things like Foongus, Cottonee, Chinchou it holds its own for the reasons mentioned and it isn't that hard to fit on teams, it wall breaks for Fletch, Tirt, Carvahna and others because it hits like a truck and lures in things that wall the above Pokemon like Chinchou and removes their Berry Juice, Eviolite, Scarf, Whatever with Knock Off making it easier to deal with
 
I agree with you about Fury Swipes being overrated, but Aipom is stronger in any other moves comparing with Minccino. Comparing it to Aipom makes me sad lol. Minccino does have better coverage moves, but Aipom has Brick Break which KOes Pawniard. Minccino is just murdered by Pawniard. Aipom has access to Taunt, so Aipom isn't just a wallbreaker; it is also an effective anti-lead. Aipom bulk is usable (again, comparing with Minccino, both holding Eviolite, and giving 76 HP EVs for both, Aipom gets 23 HP 18 Def, 18 Special Def while Minccino only gets 23 HP, 15 Def and 15 Special Def. Any decent Fighting-type attack KOes Minccino, while Aipom survives.) and Fury Swipes does the amount of damage needed without Life Orb. Speed tying with Misdreavus is very useful. Man, there are a lot of reasons you would use Aipom over Minccino (btw, most Minccino runs Adamant.).

This is just an example: 196 Atk Aipom Fury Swipes (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-20 (71.4 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO while 196+ Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-20 (71.4 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Yes this is Aipom without Life Orb and Jolly. Comparing bulk: 236 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Aipom: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO while 236 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Minccino: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO. Again, only examples, but most neutral hits only 3HKO Aipom. Minccino, due to its bulk and usually less speed is easily revenge killed. While Minccino Tail Slap is indeed very powerful, it doesn't have its power its other moves without Life Orb.

Finnaly, let's see the 3 S-rank mon. Mienfoo usually wins against both, tho Evio Aipom has a 47% chance to beat offensive one. Pawniard murders Minccino, but Aipom wins against Pawn. Missy can just burn Minccino and done while Aipom threatens Misdreavus due to the speed tie. That's it, Aipom has solid chances to beat two of the most common Pokemon in the tier, while Minccino can't beat none of them. So I am supporting Aipom for B+ due to A) It's an effective anti-lead, with Taunt and outspeeding all common leads. Btw, it stops any kind of set up sweeper. B) Incredible wallbreaker, 2HKOing all the meta which doesn't resist Fury Swipes, while outspeeding it too. C) Has all its coverage moves it needs with elemental punches, Brick Break and even Gunk Shot to aim Spritzee. Access to U-turn allows Aipom to create momentum, specially due to its causing a lot of switches D) Has a extensive movepool with a lot of fun options that could work such as Hone Claws and Baton Pass. Shame on Aipom that it doesn't get Tail Slap or a better typing, but it's better than Minccino, that's it. I will latter make a C-rank list too.
I don't see how listng Chilla as Adamant makes much sense when it hardly makes a difference to use adamant. Jolly did the same damage. I don't know why you're doing Fighting calcs either because you shouldn't be keeping either of them in on those.

When is slap weaker than swipes? In many cases, Slap is actually far stronger
 
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Max Carvalho

Que os jogos comecem
My bad about the Jolly thing but I never said Tail Slap was weaker than Fury Swipes. Give examples; when is Tail Slap stronger than Fury Swipes? When it is just as strong? Aipom isn't switching in any Fighting-type move; as I said it was an example and what I meant was that Aipom's bulk is worth using an Eviolite, that's it. For which reasons I would use Minccino over Aipom? Coverage moves? Aipom has better Atk and Elemental Punches. The only reasons I would use Minccino, if I am not mistaken, are a more accurate STAB and Encore which I need to test as Ampharaos stated it gives Minccino a lot of utility and with U-turn this could be good. But I think Tail Slap is as Strong as Aipom's Fury Swipes because Ampharaos stated that Minccino could KO 36 Def evio Mienfoo after 1 damage, but Aipom could do the same thing.
 

Aerow

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Eviolite Minccino's Tail Slap and Eviolite Aipom's Fury Swipes is in most cases just as strong, but against bulky walls like Porygon and Spritzee, Minccino is much stronger:

196 Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 15-20 (55.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)

196 Atk Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 5-15 (18.5 - 55.5%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3)


18.5% vs. 55.5%, huge difference.

Fury Swipes isn't a option in the damage calculator, so I just used Tail Slap and changed the Base Power to 18 on Aipom.
 

Max Carvalho

Que os jogos comecem
Thank you Aerow. However, if Aipom Knock Off the opposing Eviolite it becomes as strong as Tail Slap, you may try if you want. Against Spritzee Aipom would win, Porygon is way stronger and has T-Wave tho. If Aipom uses Adamant + Life Orb it doesn
'T need to use Knock Off.
 

Fiend

someguy
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So for Aipom to be powerful as Minccino, Aipom needs to Knock Off the eviolite of bulky walls. So it's still a 3HKO vs a 2HKO. I don't thing that really counts as Aipom being as powerful as Minccino. Or Aipom needs the boost from Life Orb + being Adamant to be more powerful than Minccino... Basically this means Aipom will never have as much raw power as Minccino unless it looses its place in the coveted 19 speed tier, an advantage it has over Minccino, and has the boost from LO. Does that not mean, at least against bulky walls, Minccino is superior? If you're running LO Adamant Aipom, you might as well run Minccino, who hits the same speed as Adamant Aipom, yet can run LO itself to be as powerful or Scarf to be faster.
Jolly Minccino = LO Jolly Aipom
196 Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 15-20 (57.6 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 5-20 (19.2 - 76.9%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO

LO Jolly Minccino = LO Adamant Aipom

196 Atk Life Orb Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 20-25 (76.9 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 20-25 (76.9 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Aipom of course has Tail Slap at 18 base Power to mimic Fury Swipes which is absent from the damage calculator.
 
Last edited:

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
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Regardless of its specific placement, I don't think Mincinno should go anywhere above C, because it is almost entirely unable to switch into most attacks (even Misdreavus outspeeds and burns). Once it does get in, it's unlikely to get more than one kill because there are quite a few ways to revenge-kill it; even that one kill can be denied with resistances to normal-type attacks and strong plays. Mincinno is a generally ineffective sweeper due to its lack of reliable priority, only above average speed, inability to reliably boost its attack, and inability to OHKO most eviolite users, many of which are able to OHKO it in return. As such, it is mostly limited to revenge-killing, which it isn't really notable at due to only hitting 18 Speed, and once again, a lack of powerful priority; as a wall-breaker, it's less than optimal because although almost everything is 2HKOed, few things are OHKOed. The same can be said of Aipom, but I think Aipom is much more viable than Minccino because even though it's less powerful, it has significantly more overall utility due to greater bulk and speed.
I also think Axew and Dratini should be in the same rank regardless of where they end up because even though Dratini is less physically bulky, less powerful, and slower, a powerful Extremespeed alone is an enormous boon where +1 priority attacks run rampant; Jolly Life Orb Dratini's Extremespeed is actually more powerful than Adamant Zigzagoon's (not that the two pokes are super comparable, just demonstrating that its Extremespeed isn't THAT wimpy).
Also supporting Corphish moving to B- for the reasons I outlined in the threat list thread (keeping in mind that the post was in response to TCR saying Carvanha is better)
I think Corphish deserves a mention simply due to its raw power; if something doesn't resist Crabhammer, it dies.
196 Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-14 (37 - 51.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 196 Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 196 Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Now, regarding Chinchou -
196 Atk Corphish Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 6-8 (24 - 32%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8)
196 Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 9-11 (36 - 44%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11)
196 Atk Adaptability Corphish Aqua Jet vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 4-5 (16 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)
This means that on average, if Stealth Rock is up, even defensive Chinchou will actually only be able to switch into Corphish once; a combination of Knock Off and switching into Stealth Rock twice will usually put Chinchou within KO range of Crabhammer and Aqua Jet; more offensive variants of Chinchou will be even less reliable switch-ins.
Foongus is able to repeatedly switch into Eviolite Corphish with impunity, but dealing with Life Orb Corphish will be much more troublesome once Foongus's Eviolite is gone.
196+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Foongus: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, Corphish doesn't really have a ton of options to get past Croagunk except for the fairly gimmicky Aerial Ace, but the same applies to Carvanha (who can certainly run Zen Headbutt, but that's also a bit niche). However, although Carvanha is the far better cleaner, Corphish is actually able to take a hit or two, on top of possessing Knock Off to permanently cripple specific Pokemon to compensate for a lack of Destiny Bond.
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 16-21 (80 - 105%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 39-46 (185.7 - 219%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 156 Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 156 Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 72-86 (342.8 - 409.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I understand that using Stealth Rock for Corphish's offensive calculations but not its defensive calculations is unfair, but I'm just trying to make a point here; although boosted and super-effective hits can be troublesome, Corphish is usually able to survive physical attacks that are neither with ease.

Even outside of the sheer power of Crabhammer (recalling how it OHKOs bulky Fletchling after any prior damage), Corphish still has a fairly potent Aqua Jet, a good utility move in Knock Off, and solid set-up options in Dragon Dance and Swords Dance. Corphish might not be the most notable Pokemon in the current metagame, but I don't think it should be discounted as a threat.
Finally, I would like to nominate Buizel for D. It's incredibly frail and its offensive stats aren't even that impressive, but it's quite fast and can pass Bulk Up. Mienfoo and, to a lesser extent, Torchic might appear to outclass it in such a role, and they are honestly probably more reliable, but Buizel is faster than Mienfoo, and can actually use its boosted attacks by firing off powerful Waterfalls before passing them off, unlike Torchic. Buizel also has a weak and mostly irrelevant Aqua Jet, and has a very small niche over other Rain Dance sweepers such as Kabuto and Omanyte through its neutrality to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave in exchange for a neutrality to Acrobatics and Fake Out, as well as greater base speed for when the rain runs out.
 
Nominating Honedge for B, these posts having the main reasons:

tbh Honedge isn't as bad as what people are making it out to be. Birdspam's popularity gives it a niche, as it can very well find an opportunity to come in and get a hit in. Look at what is currently being used. Fletchling and Misdreavus will hate taking a Shadow Sneak or a Rock Slide. The common check to Ghosts, scarf Pawniard, hates taking a Sacred Sword from an Automatized Honedge.

It's true that Honedge does have 4MSS, but it's still capable of being a threat to some top pokemon. Should we really ignore that?
Honedge is one of the most underrated Pokemon of all time, even without Meditite around.

1) Counters Fletchling; it can easily be EV'd to take Overheat + Acrobatics. Sets up SD on non Overheat variants.

2) Counters Spritzee and is a good alternative to poisons/other steels since unlike Magnemite, it doesn't need Sturdy to retain bulk etc.

3) Great sweeper late game, with Abra and Misdreavus everywhere Shadow Sneak becomes an excellent cleaning tool.

4) BULK like can take a Knock Off and Archen EQ (iirc) among other things. Even takes a Missy Shadow Ball most of the time (SD + Sneak is awesome).

5) Offensive pressure, not many things can switch in, especially if paired with a Knock Off user who can do work on Mienfoo and Timburr.
Fairies are a major part of LC right now, along with Fletchling and Misdreavus. Let's not count Honedge out because of FMSS And common weaknesses.
 
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