Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

[Punchshroom]

Actually, honestly, I feel that Feraligatr should be knocked down to A rank or A- rank.

Sure, its bulky, but its slow as molasses and has one of the most garbage movepool in the tier. Aqua Jet is fun, but 40 Base Power isn't going to hurt anyone unless you're Typhlosion or Archeops. Many people say that it has good bulk, I agree on that point, but so do many others like Hariyama. Then, they claim it has many setup opportunities: The Swords Dance set is terribly slow, and unless your team is very weak to Water or has terrible Speed, I don't think Feraligatr is going to sweep anyone any time soon.

Does Hariyama have a +2 boosting move and strong STAB priority? While SD may be slow, it can still outspeed a good number of defensive responses, being able to outspeed a good majority of defensive Grass-types while hurting Electric-types with powerful boosted Aqua Jets. If it doesn't look like Gatr can sweep, it can use its great bulk to check stuff, like motherfucking Zangoose and Archeops, which pretty much means Gatr can still check a good amount of shit if not allowed to setup due to good bulk, lack of weaknesses, and most importantly priority which lets it check stuff in the first place. Also Gatr's physical movepool is likely better than Samurott's (at least for NU), mostly because of its access to Ice Punch to hit Vileplume and Gourgeist, whereas Samurott's Megahorn doesn't hit them SE.

The Dragon Dance set, is very lacking in power. +1 Waterfall cannot take down Spiritomb (for lack of a better example).

Funny you'd mention that bulky Pokemon with (formerly) no weaknesses as your example. Would the 'lack of a better example' be because +1 Gatr stands a good chance of OHKOing 252 HP / 104 Def Rhydon, aka the same Rhydon that always avoids a OHKO from CB Sawk's Close Combat after Stealth Rock damage? I agree that DD is lacking in power compared to SD, but not by itself.

Feraligatr is setup bait for setup gods like Omastar, Gorebyss, Shiftry (Aqua Jet me please!), Barbaracle (eats +2 Waterfalls like a man) and many more. It's terribly low Speed prevents it from functioning as a sweeper and Aqua Jet is merely a mitigation, it is not a solution at all. When its only other sweeping move besides Waterfall is Frustration, you can see that its movepool has serious problems.

I would say Gatr is right up there alongside its fellow 'setup gods'. Gatr uses its bulk to find setup opportunities, and unlike the bulky Shell Smashers it gets to keep its bulk without having to use an item for it, while making up for its speed with 'you know what'. This allows Gatr to wield Lum Berry, which drastically increases the number of setup targets to the point where Gatr can set up on almost anything that doesn't hit it SE, and sometimes even those that do. Keep in mind Gatr only has 2 weaknesses. The thing about Gatr is that without a faster SE attack and Water resist in one, the opponent would be hard pressed to beat Gatr without suffering a lot of damage as a result, with only ~a handful of Pokemon making it safely out of Gatr's rampage. See below:

Did I mention that it gets hard blocked by very common stuff like Seismitoad, Vileplume(with speed), Poliwrath, Cacturne?!, Ludicolo, Ferroseed, I can go on...

- Seismitoad needs to be offensive if it wants to beat Gatr, since defensive ones would lose simply because it cannot beat Gatr quickly enough (even then offensive Toads only 2HKO with Grass Knot <50% of the time).
- Plume basically needs almost max speed to outrun 4 Spe Gatr, which means it throws away its ability to check Fighting-types; defensive Vileplume loses to +4 Ice Punch (yes, Gatr can actually Swords Dance again in its face), while your speedy Plume already loses to +2 (while failing to OHKO 252 HP Gatr), tho Gatr may just Swords Dance again, meaning you're only really winning on surprise factor. Lum Berry means Plume cannot simply Powder it.
- Poliwrath does make a nice response to Gatr....until the latter saves itself as the last Pokemon (and then's when your team can be worn down), so you can find yourself in trouble once more.
- Cacturne does beat SD, but gets bumrushed by DD.
- Ludicolo is definitely a solid Gatr response, and is one of the few that would slot in nicely on offensive teams.
- Ferroseed is a great defensive response, although it is considerably easier to wear down than say, Vileplume.

edit: I also realise that 252+ unboosted Ice Punch by Feraligatr cannot OHKO Shiftry... what is this thing doing in A+?

"Oh my, Shiftry's Life Orb Sucker Punch cannot OHKO Sceptile / Zangoose, must not be A+ material." Keep in mind we can't expect too much from an unboosted 75 BP move, but it's how easily Gatr can get that boost that it becomes harder to handle.

That said, Gatr may not be on its way to S yet, but I really don't see it dropping, especially not to A-. :/ It's still the biggest reason fast Water-resists (that actually beat Gatr) are coveted right now, and the amount of damage Gatr can deal per match is pretty consistently high. It's simply an unfortunate case that one of said 'faster Water resist with SE move' happens to be Shiftry (beaten by Dragon Dance), but Gatr can definitely hold its own against a lot of Pokemon.

Edit: Also yeah, most faster Water resists happen to be vulnerable to DD Gatr, which can afford better coverage, so no, Gatr is not always 'easy to check', your best hope against it is to pack either a solid hard counter (not many), or use both faster Water resists with SE moves + stuff that can wall DD better.

 

[lol kingler]

Do Feraligatr commonly run Life Orb? No, in fact they normally run Lum Berry or Leftovers. Do you always assume Stealth Rock on the field for Vileplume? No, you do not always get to set up Stealth Rock against the opponent.

If use something as check or counter, it has to be able to deal with things that quite likely to happen. While Lum or Leftovers may be more common than LO, using a poke to counter Ferligatr that loses to LO Feraligatr is stupid, even if LO less common than Lum or Leftovers (it's still pretty common, fyi). Same thing with rocks. If poke A counters poke B when rocks aren't up, but it doesn't when they are, it isn't a counter. It also accounts for prior damage. In most games, especially versus decent players with decent teams, you won't be able just to save a poke from getting any prior damage, especially when the thing you are trying to counter is primarily used late gme

252+ SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 282-332 (90.3 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 282-332 (90.3 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

1. Why are you calcing with 252+ SpA Vileplume
2. No one thinks that Vileplume can't kill a Feraligatr, especially when you aren't switching in on it

Do you always assume that Feraligatr will be able to get up to +2? Because my point is that: If Feraligatr is not +2, it WILL be blocked by the Pokemon stated above. If Feraligatr is +2, well then we simply get a faster check to OHKO it!

To be a counter, not a check, you have to be able to switch in on the poke. That means it could possibly SD. So to be a counter, you have to be able to beat it when it has an SD up. You seem to be confused between a counter and check.

I think the Cacturne I had in mind was going to use Seed Bomb...

Cacturne is slower and gets murked by Ice Punch and takes between 60% and 70% from Return. Cacturne isn't getting a chance to use Seed Bomb

It's definitely a check; 252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 320-377 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO. It certainly can't take two Returns but it can easily 1v1 and defeat Feraligatr.

Yes a check, I misspoke (typed?), but not a very good one really. If Ludicolo is your check to Ferligatr, and Gatr comes in on something it can SD on (a good amount of stuff), you pretty much lose.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear about what I meant when I mentioned set up bait. By that, I refer to the above pokemon easily setting up Shell Smash and OHKO Feraligatr (with HP Grass), along with the rest of its team.

It doesn't really easily set up on Feraligatr. If you smash on Feraligatr, and it uses Waterfall, then Aqua Jet as you kill it, it's in range to die to from another pokes priority and get killed by a wall who can take a hit or be revenged by a faster scarfer. It can certainly get off a smash on Feraligatr, but it's going to take a lot of damge in the process

Regarding Barbaracle, you do have a point there. But I also have a point here:

+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Lum Berry/Leftovers Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 220-259 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Lum Berry/Leftovers Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 220-259 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And what does Barbaracle do back exactly? Smash so it can get Aqua Jetted? Try to hit a Stone Edge (which does around 50% to 4 hp Ferliagtr)

Checking something and countering them are two extremely, extremely different things. Feraligatr isn't hard to check, but you are probably gonna lose a pokemon in the process. Ferligatr is extremely hard to hard counter.

 

[glock in my toyota]

In conclusion, I feel that my argument still stands and is still valid: Feraligatr is extremely easy to check, and also fairly easy to counter because he has only four viable moves: Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Return and Ice Punch (Crunch, if you must). Because it is easily countered, therefore it will be set up bait for the right Pokemon.

Whoa Whoa Whoa. I agree that Gatr is easy to check. I agree that he isn't a godly sweeper. But it is just Arrogant to say that he only has 4 viable moves. He has 6. Ice Punch, Aqua Jet, Frustration/Return, Waterfall, Crunch, and Earthquake. Barbaracle and Omastar are not just going to Set Up on Gatr if it has EQ.

252+ Atk Feraligatr Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 184-218 (64.3 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- Then at -1 Defense an AJ kills Barb.

252+ Atk Feraligatr Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 170-202 (60.2 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- AJ brings him down extremely low at neutral, or kills if it is a Weak Armor Omastar.

Disregarding EQ as a coverage move on Gatr is just not OK. Gatr runs EQ a lot of the time (to deal with Lanturn) and should not be unrecognized as coverage.

EDIT: Can we also mention, that in the Meta right now, a lot of Gatrs are running 252 HP? Unless it's DDance Gatr, it's probably 252 HP.

 

[conway]

Although a physically defensive spiritomb doesn't take a +2 life orbed Feraligatr's waterfall all too well it can survive one after stealth rock damage and OHKO the Feraligatr with a Foul Play after Stealth Rock damage.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%)
+2 0 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 294-346 (94.2 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[vyomov]

I'd like to nominate Leavanny for B- rank at the least. Leavanny is one of the best Sticky Web leads out there, and can consistently set up Webs vs offensive teams, while also using Magic Coat to great effect vs offensive teams. Leavanny also has the advantage of beating common defoggers such as Shiftry and overall deserves to be in a higher rank than mons such as Articuno.

 

[DTC]

i feel as if a lot of pokemon are way underranked atm, will note a few

first off, mesprit should go from B- to A-

mesprit is such an adjustable pokemon. it has so many amazing move options: sr, u-turn, knock off, healing wish, and a million and a half coverage moves. imo it's the best SR mon because it's way less predictable and baitable than seismitoad and rhydon but thats just me. mesprit is also bulky and strong and even sort of fast all at the same time, which is not something a lot of other nu mons can boast. there are a load of good mesprit sets: cm, pivot, support, scarf, just to name a few. dark-types arent too much of a problem for mesprit because it's bulky enough to take a pursuit and has moves like u-turn and dazzling gleam to play around them.

secondly, steelix should go from C to B-

spdef steelix is pretty awesome. it's one of the best checks to shiftry, archeops, zangoose, and specs magneton in the tier. it also checks a lot of other annoying pokemon like dragalge, rotom, uxie, mesprit (fck smashpass mesprit) and tauros. there arent as many normals/flyers in NU as there was in BW but steelix's steel-typing is still handy for a lot of things. in addition, steelix is one of the better SR setters and even has sturdy to guarantee rocks (and enough physical bulk to not die from mold breaker sawk). it doesn't hit particularly hard but gyro ball will do a lot of damage to offensive mons and it has roar/dragon tail phazing which is always nice.

dont have much time atm and bad gateways are annoying so just mentioning these 2 for now, but there are a lot of other pokemon that deserve to be ranked up higher imo. nu is a really diverse tier, especially with sigi gone. this is coming from the guy that tried their hardest to make the ru viability rankings less inflated lol.

 

[glock in my toyota]

Oh Wow. I just realized that Gothorita is C Rank.

Simply put, Gothorita is extremely good in NU right now. With Sigilyph now gone, Gothorita is, in my opinion, the best Psychic type in the tier. Specs Goth traps and kills almost every defensive Pokemon in the tier. Psyshock/Energy Ball/Hidden Power [Ground]/Psychic is a set that lets it single-handedly OWN nearly every defensive core. While it may seem redundant to run Psychic and Psyshock on the same set, but Psychic OHKOes Vileplume and Psyshock doesn't. Psyshock is here to OHKO Hariyama, and Psychic will not OHKO it. Energy Ball is to trap Rhydon, Seismitoad, and Lanturn. Hidden Power[Ground] is here for things like Steelix, Bastiodon, Probopass, and Klinklang. With Choice Specs, HP Ground 2HKOes all of these Pokemon at the worst. Trick can be put in place of Psychic, but I prefer Psychic so that I can OHKO more Defensive threats.

Furthermore, Gothorita clears for one of the scariest Setup Sweepers, Feraligatr. Goth clears the opposition of walls to Gatr, like Vileplume, Lanturn, and Seismitoad. Gothorita not only clears for Gatr, but many other setup sweepers, like Shiftry, as Goth can take care of Weezing, one of Shiftry's best Checks.

Gothorita is being seriously underrated on the Viability List, and I think it is deserving of B-/B

 

[Pokedots]

Welp, with Sigilyph finally gone, the meta has changed in more than a few ways, with I believe several pokemon that now should rise and others that should be lower in the rankings.
Xatu from B- to B/B+
To me, this is arguably the pokemon that benefited the most from Sigilyph's ban, as it now faces considerably less competition for a team slot. It always had a niche as the only Magic Bouncer in the tier, and it always could run an effective support set or a utility set that allowed to keep Stealth Rocks off the field and break down stall. Not too much has changed about this set except for the fact that it is now easier to fit on a team thanks to no longer having the redundant defensive synergy with Sigilyph in teams that ran Sigi (which was a lot of them). However, the set that got significantly buffed now is the offensive set. It was almost completely outclassed by Sigilyph, who had more power, speed (those 2 points are very significant), and Magic Guard, only having Magic Bounce over it, so it often didn't warrant a spot on offensive teams. However, now it faces much less competition with the best poke in the tier gone, and the offensive set has a lot of merits, like beating Rhydon, Seismitoad, and Omastar (some of the best SR/Spikes setters). Xatu also completely ruins Spikes stacking HO, as it can break their sashes/sturdies of the lead with U-Turn while preventing them from setting up, and then go out to a teammate that is faster and OHKOes (or, in Accelgor's case, has powerful priority), and still not being dead weight thanks to its good speed and power.
Shiftry for S-rank
With Sigilyph gone, we need to find the new best pokemon in the tier, and I believe Shiftry is the best candidate (with Feraligatr a close second). However, while Feraligatr may have more power and bulk, what gives Shiftry the advantage is its better speed, more powerful priority, better coverage, more utility, the ability to go mixed, and a lot more versatility. Thanks to Defog and Knock Off, it is not only a strong attacker, but also has the massive utility of removing hazards and a powerful STAB that gets rid of items (leaving it with little true counters as pretty much everything likes to hold an item). It has both Sword Dance and Nasty Plot (which surprises its usual checks and counters), and even an univested Leaf Storm hurts a lot. All, in all, Shiftry is probably the best pokemon in the tier.
Some other changes:
Liepard down from A to A-/B+ With Sigilyph gone, it is no longer the best offensive check to the best pokemon in the tier, which was one of its main merits. While it has perfect coverage with Knock Off and Play Rough, its 88 Atk is more than a little disappointing. Priority T-Wave and Encore is awesome, however.
Vileplume from A to A+ With the best pokemon in the tier which easily beat it gone, one of its worst setbacks is gone. It now walls the two now best pokes in the tier, however (Shiftry and Feraligatr, depending on the latter's coverage move), in addition to almost all of the unboosted A-rank and more. Offensive tank sets are effective thanks to that 100 SpAtk (EDIT: Wow, it actually was buffed to 110 SpAtk, which just makes it all the more threatening) and good coverage.
Feraligatr for S-rank Even if I believe Shiftry is the better poke, Feraligatr is still a fantastic setup sweeper that sets up on half of the tier and can break through unprepared teams (which are rare, given how a Feraligatr check is a necessity in teambuilding). EDIT: After playing more higher-ladder-ish games with it, I don't think it is quite on the same level as Shiftry, but I don't think it should go down as it is still a massive threat. On the other hand, I was recently enlightened to the sheer brilliance of CroTomb and the priority set :o
EDIT: I fully agree with Mesprit for A- because of its sheer versatility (almost Clefable-levels), and Steelix seems like a pretty decent poke.

 

[Aasgier]

I'd like to nominate Leavanny for B- rank at the least. Leavanny is one of the best Sticky Web leads out there, and can consistently set up Webs vs offensive teams, while also using Magic Coat to great effect vs offensive teams. Leavanny also has the advantage of beating common defoggers such as Shiftry and overall deserves to be in a higher rank than mons such as Articuno.

Strangely, you can even pull a prank with Leavanny and instead of Webbing, run Knock Off and Life Orb instead of its typical SW set. Not entirely viable because of the stiff competition from Leafeon as well as because how good Sticky Web is, but it is hilarious regardless.

Jolly Joker (Leavanny) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
- Knock Off
- Synthesis / Leaf Storm

Not a really serious set, though, but it works quite well. In Gen V, Leavanny had a staggering number of counters, but now, it has fewer counters than its coverage suggests as Knock Off was buffed so greatly. Most counters are hiding in RU/UU now and many others are skewered by Knock Off or just don't appreciate it, and most of the counters that still exist, can only deal with Leavanny once before either Knock Off or SR+Synthesis gets to them. Leaf Storm reduces the number of things that counter Leavanny repeatedly even further.
Only Weezing can counter repeatedly, everything else gets either skewered if it switches in the wrong move, or just crippled for the remainder of the match, or worn down too much by Stealth Rock and the attack it tanked to switch in again.

Leavanny is awkward to use, but with a viable set and a joke set just powerful enough to do what the viable set cannot do, it is something you need to thread carefully around. Or you'll lose half your team to it.

Edit: For what's worth, Muk and Swalot can counter repeatedly too.

 

[Jaguar360]

Shadow Claw is actually a good substitute for Knock Off on Sticky Web sets for Leavanny. This is what I use:
Leavanny @ Focus Sash
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Claw
- Swords Dance
Leaf Blade good replace Swords Dance for bulky Waters like Seismitoad, Swords Dance is still helpful for breaking other things before dying.

 

[Aasgier]

Leavanny's Knock Off boosted by Life Orb deals ~80% more damage on the first hit compared to a Shadow Claw with a Focus Sash.

 

[Jaguar360]

Leavanny's Knock Off boosted by Life Orb deals ~80% more damage on the first hit compared to a Shadow Claw with a Focus Sash.

It wasn't really meant to be compared to your set. I'm just saying as a Sticky Web user alone since Knock Off is not compatible with Sticky Web.

 

[jake]

hello! i have had a lot of issues with my internet the last few days, but rest assured this will be updated by tomorrow at the latest :)

 

[glock in my toyota]

Feraligatr for S-rank Even if I believe Shiftry is the better poke, Feraligatr is still a fantastic setup sweeper that sets up on half of the tier and can break through unprepared teams (which are rare, given how a Feraligatr check is a necessity in teambuilding).

I will have to disagree with you there. Feraligatr is indeed a great Pokemon in that it can set up and sweep a hefty portion of the tier, but Feraligatr does have a lot of checks. The only reason I say Feraligatr should not be S-Rank is because one of it's checks is literally the best and most common Pokemon in the tier, Shiftry. Sure, when you say a Feraligatr check is a necessity in teambuilding, that is true, but when it is checked by the best thing in the tier, I don't see it as worthy of S-Rank. Even if Gatr is running Ice Punch, Shiftry can come in after a Sac, and force Gatr out.

(This situation is actually comparable to the OU Viability Ranking, where everbody thought Talonflame was deserving of S-Rank, but, because it is checked by the most common thing in the tier, Rotom-W, it remained A+ Rank.)

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Strangely, you can even pull a prank with Leavanny and instead of Webbing, run Knock Off and Life Orb instead of its typical SW set. Not entirely viable because of the stiff competition from Leafeon as well as because how good Sticky Web is, but it is hilarious regardless.

Jolly Joker (Leavanny) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
- Knock Off
- Synthesis / Leaf Storm

Not a really serious set, though, but it works quite well. In Gen V, Leavanny had a staggering number of counters, but now, it has fewer counters than its coverage suggests as Knock Off was buffed so greatly. Most counters are hiding in RU/UU now and many others are skewered by Knock Off or just don't appreciate it, and most of the counters that still exist, can only deal with Leavanny once before either Knock Off or SR+Synthesis gets to them. Leaf Storm reduces the number of things that counter Leavanny repeatedly even further.
Only Weezing can counter repeatedly, everything else gets either skewered if it switches in the wrong move, or just crippled for the remainder of the match, or worn down too much by Stealth Rock and the attack it tanked to switch in again.

Leavanny is awkward to use, but with a viable set and a joke set just powerful enough to do what the viable set cannot do, it is something you need to thread carefully around. Or you'll lose half your team to it.

Edit: For what's worth, Muk and Swalot can counter repeatedly too.

I'd like to point out Shiftry gives this way more competition that Leafeon lol.

 

[Aasgier]

It wasn't really meant to be compared to your set. I'm just saying as a Sticky Web user alone since Knock Off is not compatible with Sticky Web.

True, I guess.

Reliable Sticky Web: Focus Sash and Sticky Web somewhere in its moveset. Magic Coat, X-Scissor and Shadow Claw are likely the chosen other moves.
Offensive Sticky Web: Life Orb and Sticky Web somewhere in its moveset. X-Scissor, and two other moves that can be basically everything. Leaf Blade, Shadow Claw, Swords Dance, Synthesis, etc.
Mind-Screw Joke: Life Orb and Knock Off somewhere in its moveset. Leaf Blade, X-Scissor and Synthesis or Leaf Storm are likely the other chosen moves. Swords Dance can be squeezed in too.

Peef Rimgar : True, but Shiftry is quite a bit slower. It also does not have access to Sticky Web which is even if it isn't ran, still a massive threat until Knock Off is revealed.

Leavanny will be interesting when Knock Off becomes a Tutor again.

 

[Ares]

I would like to nominate Marowak for C . Right now the biggest thing hindering Marowak is speed, but a set I have been seeing around is substitute marowak. Bringing it in on something that cant hurt you sub on the switch and then kill the pokemon that would normally kill you. The sub helps to stop the amount of prediction needed. And with Marowaks unique item Thick Club it has its normally alright attack turned into something to be scared of. It has the ability Rock head which negates recoil damage. So when running Double-edge you dont take needless recoil. Also with access to knock off you dont have to worry about ghost with levitate that walled marowak last gen. On top of that it has 110 base defense stat meaning it can live a physical hit and kill. If you dont give Marowak the respect it deserves it will take out a good portion of your team.

Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off
- Substitute

 

[Flare Blitzle]

Liepard is A+ imo. Prankster Thunder Wave (and Encore) is so incredibly clutch. It's fast enough that it can U-turn out when it needs to to keep momentum and Knock Off hurts even from its pretty average attack. I've been using Black Glasses (not sure what's considered standard and/or the best item tbh, but Black Glasses has been working fine for me so far). Yeah, it's super frail, but you shouldn't be leaving it in on faster stuff that it isn't going to Encore really anyway since most will take it to the cleaners. The only big downside I've found is that there isn't enough move slots to run Knock Off/U-turn/T-Wave/Encore/Taunt which it would really love to. There's times when I wished I had the priority of Sucker Punch too. Being frail enough to not handle priority that well is also a pain in some situations. It's just one of the top Pokemon in the tier for me so far and I think it fully deserves a bump up. (Also the higher rankings are really bare.)

And finally an odd nomination: Delibird should be ranked in C- or D. It's a legit lead (even if it's not amazing) and baits Rock Blast Pokemon like Rhydon, Golem, Crustle to go straight for the kill, all of which can be killed off with a faster Destiny Bond preventing them from setting up their rocks and removing a potential block for other memebers of your team. It can set Spikes on the switches that D-Bond can cause and also doesn't do too bad against Accelgor with Aerial Ace -> Ice Shard for the kill. It has horrible stats and typing, and Hustle can crap on it when it does actually get to attack, but I've been having really good fun with it, even if it's generally mediocre. C- for its cool niche or just D if we want to be cruel to the jolly christmas bird that never wants to sleep :[ I really wish it had Taunt, it would be handy for it, but what can you do.

 

[skies]

• 
  C Rank ----> C+ Rank

I know I've said what I needed to say about Simipour already, but I genuinely believe it deserves to go up to C+. I've been using it quite a bit and can honestly say it's often the MVP of my team. Its Speed tier is actually quite good, residing in 101, being outspeed by Accelgor, Archeops, Liepard, Mismagius, and Sceptile in the A to A+ Ranks. Its Water STAB also gets great coverage amongst the tier, along with Ice Beam and Focus Blast to back it up. Nasty Plot instantly turns it into quite a threat, and it can even run Knock Off in place of Nasty Plot. What it truly lacks is bulk to take... well... anything. And it is very easily checked, but it it should be ranked alongside Basculin, not Ariados.

 

[tennisace]

I can't believe nobody nominated Spiritomb to S-rank. It's literally one of the hardest Pokemon for offensive teams to handle with the priority set, goes through screens / subs to hit the opponent or burn them, and has the bulk to deal with whatever priority is faster than it (bonus: immune to Quick Attack / Extremespeed). This isn't even going into last mon crotomb, which is downright terrifying if you don't have any boosting Pokemon left at the end of the game.

 

[lol kingler]

I can't believe nobody nominated Spiritomb to S-rank. It's literally one of the hardest Pokemon for offensive teams to handle with the priority set, goes through screens / subs to hit the opponent or burn them, and has the bulk to deal with whatever priority is faster than it (bonus: immune to Quick Attack / Extremespeed). This isn't even going into last mon crotomb, which is downright terrifying if you don't have any boosting Pokemon left at the end of the game.

"S-rank: reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths."

I personally don't think Spiritomb fits that description, specifically the first part about sweeping or walling significant portions of the metagame. While Spiritomb is a fantastic poke that's capable of being both offensive and defensive and can run a variety of sets, it doesn't have a lot of useful resistances and in my experience struggles taking on bulky attackers from the side it doesn't invest in. Easily an A+ poke, arguably the best in the tier, but being the best pokemon in the tier doesn't necessarily make it S rank, in my opinion.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

"S-rank: reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths."

I personally don't think Spiritomb fits that description, specifically the first part about sweeping or walling significant portions of the metagame. While Spiritomb is a fantastic poke that's capable of being both offensive and defensive and can run a variety of sets, it doesn't have a lot of useful resistances and in my experience struggles taking on bulky attackers from the side it doesn't invest in. Easily an A+ poke, arguably the best in the tier, but being the best pokemon in the tier doesn't necessarily make it S rank, in my opinion.

No useful resistances? How about an immunity to Psychic and Fighting, two of the most lethal offensive types ingame? ?_? Not to mention that it single-handedly beats anything that has the typing Normal. It has access to priority, excellent bulk, can attack from both sides of the spectrum, has an effective boosting set (wth beats CroTomb reliably barring Granbull?), access to Will-o-Wisp, can spinblock, and so on. Also, let's not forget it only has one weakness, which is basically non-existant in NU barring the occasional Granbull. Easy S rank.

On that note, Gurdurr is an easy A+ in my opinion. It checks huge threats like Zangoose and Shiftry with Mach Punch, spams Knock Off like it's nobody's business because everything that can take a Knock Off gets devastated by Drain Punch (again barring Granbull, maybe he needs to move up too). The Bulk Up set is still massively threatening and basically forces you to run something along the lines of Vileplume or you flatout lose. It's just ridiculously good and easy to fit on any team.

 

[lol kingler]

No useful resistances? How about an immunity to Psychic and Fighting, two of the most lethal offensive types ingame? ?_? Not to mention that it single-handedly beats anything that has the typing Normal. It has access to priority, excellent bulk, can attack from both sides of the spectrum, has an effective boosting set (wth beats CroTomb reliably barring Granbull?), access to Will-o-Wisp, can spinblock, and so on. Also, let's not forget it only has one weakness, which is basically non-existant in NU barring the occasional Granbull. Easy S rank.

On that note, Gurdurr is an easy A+ in my opinion. It checks huge threats like Zangoose and Shiftry with Mach Punch, spams Knock Off like it's nobody's business because everything that can take a Knock Off gets devastated by Drain Punch (again barring Granbull, maybe he needs to move up too). The Bulk Up set is still massively threatening and basically forces you to run something along the lines of Vileplume or you flatout lose. It's just ridiculously good and easy to fit on any team.

I guess I should've clarified but I specifically meant resistances and not immunities. Yes, it is immune to Fighting and Normal and Psychic, but only resists Poison, meaning there's a lot of stuff that hits it for neutral damage. Maybe my opinion is skewed because I've been using the same team for the past couple weeks and it has had no problems with Spiritomb, but I seriously don't see how it is an easy S rank. Sigilyph was previously S rank, and I don't think it's removal from the metagame makes Spiritomb a whole lot better, and I don't think Spiritomb gets close to how centralizing/dominant as Sigilyph. Basically, I think Spiritomb can do a variety of things extremely well, but doesn't do them well enough to where it can get S rank. Sigilyph was so good because it could run so many different sets which were hard to accommodate for, Spiritomb runs many different sets that can accommodate for opposing threats, but I think the formula to deal with Spiritomb isn't hugely different set to set.

Gurdurr is very good definitely gets a huge boost from the Sigilyph ban, but I do not think it's on the level of Feraligatr, Shiftry and Spiritomb.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

I guess I should've clarified but I specifically meant resistances and not immunities. Yes, it is immune to Fighting and Normal and Psychic, but only resists Poison, meaning there's a lot of stuff that hits it for neutral damage. Maybe my opinion is skewed because I've been using the same team for the past couple weeks and it has had no problems with Spiritomb, but I seriously don't see how it is an easy S rank. Sigilyph was previously S rank, and I don't think it's removal from the metagame makes Spiritomb a whole lot better, and I don't think Spiritomb gets close to how centralizing/dominant as Sigilyph. Basically, I think Spiritomb can do a variety of things extremely well, but doesn't do them well enough to where it can get S rank. Sigilyph was so good because it could run so many different sets which were hard to accommodate for, Spiritomb runs many different sets that can accommodate for opposing threats, but I think the formula to deal with Spiritomb isn't hugely different set to set.

just because something isn't as centralizing as Sigi was doesn't mean it isn't S Material. The entire point of a ban is that it was far too good for the metagame to handle. If Spiritomb was as good as it we'd be having a suspect for it rn. And as tennisace previously stated, Spiritomb has a large variety of sets that actually do take some accommodation, such as CROtomb, bulky WoW, etc.

Also immunities to the most common types in the tier is probably more valuable than any resistance

 

[lol kingler]

just because something isn't as centralizing as Sigi was doesn't mean it isn't S Material. The entire point of a ban is that it was far too good for the metagame to handle. If Spiritomb was as good as it we'd be having a suspect for it rn. And as tennisace previously stated, Spiritomb has a large variety of sets that actually do take some accommodation, such as CROtomb, bulky WoW, etc.

Also immunities to the most common types in the tier is probably more valuable than any resistance

Saying Fighting and Normal are the most common types in the tier is arguable but nonetheless it's not my point that having those immunities is better or worse than more resistances, the fact that it doesn't have many resistances means it takes a lot of neutral hits. One of the biggest problems with Spiritomb in my opinion is that for it to effectively handle SD Lum Gatr (in my experience the most common set on one of the most common and best pokes), it needs to be bulky WoW and be at high health. This is going to be my last post about Tomb unless someone brings up a different point. It's not that I don't know what the variety and effectiveness of many Spiritomb sets such as Crotomb, Bulky WoW, Max attack, Foul play etc. I just don't think any of these sets are dominant or compliment each other extremely well. I think Spiritomb is the definition of an A+ but not quite S pokemon.