Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[AM]

Shoundn't we wait until the suspect test of both deoxys end before making a S+/S- Ranking? Otherwise it will seem like 1 or 2 mons are centerizing the meta which might not be true.

I agree with this but on the flip side the viability ranking is suppose to represent the meta as of right now, not in say a week and a half when the tests are over. Also I'll just reiterate my old thoughts on the S rank division which has already been explained by numerous previous posts. The issue I'm seeing now is that people are going to suggest things for S- simply because they believe it's too good for A+ but not so much for S+. It'll just cause a lot of unnecessary discussion for unrealistic rankings that would have otherwise been avoided with the usual system that is used for ranking. Also I haven't seen any other viability ranking thread bother to do a system like this cause practically it doesn't make sense. Everything else has been pretty much said by others.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Also I haven't seen any other viability ranking thread bother to do a system like this cause practically it doesn't make sense.

gen 5 ru has s+, s and s-
gen 5 nu also did until jynx and scolipede got banned

 

[alexwolf]

Seeing as most of you guys don't like the S rank dividing idea, we are staying with the old system. Thanks for the feedback guys!

Now, let's get back to discussing Victini, Weavile, Dragonite, Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Amoonguss, all of which are proposed for rank raises. Remember, if you want to convince me and Nog, your best bet is to compare those Pokemon with other similar Pokemon in the rank where you think they deserve to be. For example, if you want to see Gliscor go to A- rank, compare it with other defensive Pokemon there, such as Skarmory and Chansey, or mention how it's not much less effective than its fellow Ground-types in A rank, Hippowdon and Landorus-T. Comparisons are the best ways to determine viability.

 

[procrastinat]

The only one I've had enough experience with to have an opinion on is Gliscor, and I thoroughly believe that it deserves an increase to it's rank. In terms of pure walling capability, it's not as good as skarmory, which can boast countering top threats like Mega-Pinsir and Mega-gyarados, But it is far better at pivoting into random attacks due to it's ability and superior special bulk when using a specially defensive set. It can check/counter non HP ice Landorus, which is a huge benefit to stall and balance teams, as well as checking a huge variety of other threats such as: Aegislash, Excadrill, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Terrakion, Lando-T, and I've even heard of it beating Rotom-W 1v1. Gliscor is very easy to slap onto a balanced or stall team and always pull it's weight, checking things that give the team nightmares, toxicing everything it can and just generally be a pain to knock out. Gliscor for A-.

 

[Nawthy_dogz]

I support moving Gliscor to A-. Gliscor is really annoying if you are unprepared as it can toxic stall and knock off your items.

I also would nominate Victini to B+ because the cute little guy hits like a truck with choice band. It is also very versatile by using scarf, specs or even mixed attacking. Only factor keeping it to be really good is weakness to stealth rock. Still, Victini deserves a B+

 

[MilkyWay]

I'll give it one more shot to try and convince you guys to move Weavile to B. In my opinion, Weavile is much more similar to Mega-Heracross and Lucario (both B) than something like Mega-Aerodactly or Rhyperior (both B-) in terms of viability. Like Mega-Heracross and Lucario, Weavile has a great offensive presence and is hard to switch into. With its blazing fast speed and good coverage between its dual STABs not many pokemon want to switch in or stay in on this little guy. Unfortunately, Weavile is frail and can't really switch into much. However, Lucario has the same flaw and is still B rank despite being slower and weaker than Weavile. Like Lucario, Weavile also has Swords Dance and priority to augment its offensive presence. On the flip side, Weavile isn't really outclassed by anything unlike Mega-Aerodactly and Rhyperior. Mega-Aerodactly faces stiff competition from pretty much every offensive mega, such as gyrados, tyranitar, charizard, pinsir, medicham, heracross, etc. There arent many good reasons to justify its use over the megas on this list. In the same vein, Rhyperior is often outclassed as a stealth rock and a bird counter by Tyranitar and Heatran, who are some of the best pokemon in the tier. Weavile isnt severely outclassed by anything in this way and is more viable than its counterparts in B-. Due to other positive traits that Weavile has that I mentioned earlier in this post, and in my previous post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3502428/page-136#post-5537484), I believe that Weavile is more viable than the other members in its rank and should therefore be moved up to B.

 

[Karxrida]

I'll give it one more shot to try and convince you guys to move Weavile to B. In my opinion, Weavile is much more similar to Mega-Heracross and Lucario (both B) than something like Mega-Aerodactly or Rhyperior (both B-) in terms of viability. Like Mega-Heracross and Lucario, Weavile has a great offensive presence and is hard to switch into. With its blazing fast speed and good coverage between its dual STABs not many pokemon want to switch in or stay in on this little guy. Unfortunately, Weavile is frail and can't really switch into much. However, Lucario has the same flaw and is still B rank despite being slower and weaker than Weavile. Like Lucario, Weavile also has Swords Dance and priority to augment its offensive presence. On the flip side, Weavile isn't really outclassed by anything unlike Mega-Aerodactly and Rhyperior. Mega-Aerodactly faces stiff competition from pretty much every offensive mega, such as gyrados, tyranitar, charizard, pinsir, medicham, heracross, etc. There arent many good reasons to justify its use over the megas on this list. In the same vein, Rhyperior is often outclassed as a stealth rock and a bird counter by Tyranitar and Heatran, who are some of the best pokemon in the tier. Weavile isnt severely outclassed by anything in this way and is more viable than its counterparts in B-. Due to other positive traits that Weavile has that I mentioned earlier in this post, and in my previous post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3502428/page-136#post-5537484), I believe that Weavile is more viable than the other members in its rank and should therefore be moved up to B.

Weavile isn't that hard to switch into. (Mega) Scizor, Gyarados, Mega Venusaur, Bulky DD/Bulky Will-O Zard X, and Azumarill all switch into you without giving two fucks about your move choice (barring Freeze hax from Ice Punch) and force you out while getting a free turn of set up for Scizor, Gyarados, Zard X, and Azumarill (which isn't exactly a good thing due to how threatening these Mons are after a boost).

Luke is way better than Weavile thanks to E-Speed, meaning it's difficult to revenge and doesn't need Talonflame dead to clean late game; it just needs rocks up. Luke also runs Adamant so it hits harder than Jolly Weavile, can run Earthquake so it isn't fucked over by Aegislash, isn't SR weak so it gets more turns to abuse Life Orb, can get past Fairies with Iron Tail (though 75% accuracy sucks ass), and it has actual resists to switch in on.

EDIT: Mawile, Clefable, Skarmory, Rotom-W, and Quagsire also DGAF about Weavile outside of item loss. Mawile also gets a free SD/Sub while also Intimidating you, so that's another top threat that you're a complete liability against.

 

[Tressed]

I don't know why anyone would opt to run Weavile as a straight out attacker, because in that role it's pretty mediocre. Knock Off and Ice Punch are nice bonuses, but not an actual reason to toss Weavile onto a team. What sells Weavile is that it's nice fastest Pursuit user in OU, which makes it very good at locking down quick threats like Greninja (not after Dark Pulse), Latios, Gengar, and other weakened threats. In Bisharp's case, you're forced to play around with Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Knock Off headgames, which can end up with a severely damaged Bisharp or a free switch into a check. Aegislash's Pursuit lacks STAB and usually investment, so it's quite weak compared to Weavile's.

If there's a B Rank mon I'd compare to Weavile, it's Gothitelle. Gothitelle's specialty is tearing apart stall teams, but it struggles against offensive teams. Weavile fares better against the latter, and although the list of trappable things is smaller than Gothitelle's, Weavile can still put in work if nothing's available to trap thanks it's high speed and ability to deal out significant damage. Gothitelle's coverage might be better, but Weavile hits a hell of a lot harder and it's movepool is far more versatile as well, since Knock Off drops items and Ice Shard has some nice revenge killing properties.

So yeah, B Rank for Weavile because it's one of the best Pursuit users in the tier and makes for a solid offensive mon outside of that.

 

[Rotosect]

Another thing that should be mentioned about Weavile is that despite its frailty and many weaknesses, it does have useful resistances to common priority moves: Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, so it can easily deal with Mamoswine, Aegislash and Bisharp, a feat that few frail pokemon can accomplish.

 

[Valmanway]

Another thing that should be mentioned about Weavile is that despite its frailty and many weaknesses, it does have useful resistances to common priority moves: Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, so it can easily deal with Mamoswine, Aegislash and Bisharp, a feat that few frail pokemon can accomplish.

I wouldn't say it easily deals with Aegislash, as King's Shield can really punish a hasty Weavile when it goes for Knock Off, and trying to avoid triggering King's Shield's effect can actually be used against you. Besides, even if Weavile's Attack isn't halved, LO boosted Knock Off very rarely OHKOes Shield Form anyways and Sacred Sword can easily vaporize Weavile.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't know why anyone would opt to run Weavile as a straight out attacker, because in that role it's pretty mediocre. Knock Off and Ice Punch are nice bonuses, but not an actual reason to toss Weavile onto a team. What sells Weavile is that it's nice fastest Pursuit user in OU, which makes it very good at locking down quick threats like Greninja (not after Dark Pulse), Latios, Gengar, and other weakened threats. In Bisharp's case, you're forced to play around with Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Knock Off headgames, which can end up with a severely damaged Bisharp or a free switch into a check. Aegislash's Pursuit lacks STAB and usually investment, so it's quite weak compared to Weavile's.

If there's a B Rank mon I'd compare to Weavile, it's Gothitelle. Gothitelle's specialty is tearing apart stall teams, but it struggles against offensive teams. Weavile fares better against the latter, and although the list of trappable things is smaller than Gothitelle's, Weavile can still put in work if nothing's available to trap thanks it's high speed and ability to deal out significant damage. Gothitelle's coverage might be better, but Weavile hits a hell of a lot harder and it's movepool is far more versatile as well, since Knock Off drops items and Ice Shard has some nice revenge killing properties.

So yeah, B Rank for Weavile because it's one of the best Pursuit users in the tier and makes for a solid offensive mon outside of that.

Weavile is far from the best Pursut Trapper in the game. First of all, you can't switch into the things you're trapping without the risk of dying immediately so you have to let something get KO'd to do your job. The 3 other trappers (Bisharp, T-Tar, Aegislash) have great resistances and/or amazing bulk to switch into what they are trapping. Secondly, you can't press Pursuit and forget like with the others. If your opponent calls your bluff and stays in on you to take the unboosted Pursuit, you're dead. You'll probably weaken them to let something else finish the job, but then you've just done a 1 for 1 when you could have done a 1 for none. Finally, Scarf Tar does the fast Pursuit Trap better while still being able to counter shit and even acts as a hilarious way to revenge stuff like Mega Pinsir.

 

[MilkyWay]

Luke is way better than Weavile thanks to E-Speed, meaning it's difficult to revenge and doesn't need Talonflame dead to clean late game; it just needs rocks up. Luke also runs Adamant so it hits harder than Jolly Weavile, can run Earthquake so it isn't fucked over by Aegislash, isn't SR weak so it gets more turns to abuse Life Orb, can get past Fairies with Iron Tail (though 75% accuracy sucks ass), and it has actual resists to switch in on.

Weavile doesn't need Talonflame dead to sweep either, as most Talonflame are Adamant Weavile's Ice Shard outspeeds Talonflame's Brave Bird.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 107-126 (35.9 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 212-251 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Weavile can get past Talonflame as long as it is weakened a little bit, which isnt that hard to do since it is stealth rock weak and relies on recoil moves.

E-Speed doesnt really make Lucario way better than Weavile, as after STAB Ice Shard is base 60, is actually super effective against things, and the extra priority doesnt really matter since Weavile is so fast. Both of them fair about the same against Aegilash. Sacred Sword vaporizes both of them and neither can OHKO it in shield form, although they can threaten to Swords Dance if it chooses to King's Shield. And although Adamant Lucario hits harder than Jolly Weavile, you arent taking into account how much more Weavile can outspeed than Lucario. This lets Weavile stay in when it gets in unlike Lucario, who is, like Weavile, too frail to stay in on much faster than it. Also you're kidding yourself if you think Lucario is ever going to run Iron Tail. Lucario already has 4MSS, 75% accuracy it barely better than Focus Miss Blast, and the two most common fairies, Mega Mawile and Azumarill, aren't even weak to steel.

The main problem with Lucario is that base 110 attack is strong, but not quiet strong enough. Base 90 speed is fast, but not fast enough. Its defensive typing is good, but 70/70/70 is still frail. Lucario is good an all, but not great. Which is why it belongs in B rank, like Weavile.

Also what resists is Lucario ever going to switch in on? Mega Venusaurs Giga Drain? Landorus-T's Knock Off? Garchomp's Outrage? Have fun with all of that ;)

Edit:

Valmanway,
I think you are missing the point. The point was that Talonflame would be low on health because it switched in to stealth rock or used recoil moves on something else earlier in the game. This would cause it to be weakened enough for Weavile to kill it. The point was not that Talonflame would kill Weavile and then die from the recoil it got from killing Weavile as you interpreted it. The idea of running Swords Dance on Weavile isnt to Swords Dance and sweep, it is more of an all-out attacker set that uses Swords Dance if given the chance, so it would still run Life Orb. Also, on what planet does Talonflame run jolly and max speed?

 

[Valmanway]

Weavile doesn't need Talonflame dead to sweep either, as most Talonflame are Adamant Weavile's Ice Shard outspeeds Talonflame's Brave Bird.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 107-126 (35.9 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 212-251 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's pretty rare that a Swords Dance Weavile gets a chance to set up safely aside from stall teams, at least from my experience, so the +2 Weavile damage calc is either very situational or you have to factor in the lack of Life Orb power boost (since I personally would run Focus Sash on the SD set). Plus:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 260-308 (92.1 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

So Talonflame can kill you after Weavile's LO recoil without using Brave Bird and killing itself with recoil, even if it gets hit with the rare +2 Ice Shard. Though some people still run Jolly nature, so attacking might not be the wisest move to go for unless you're positive it's Adamant.

 

[jbtc10]

Remember, if you want to convince me and Nog, your best bet is to compare Pokemon with other similar Pokemon in the rank where you think they deserve to be. For example, if you want to see Gliscor go to A- rank, compare it with other defensive Pokemon there, such as Skarmory and Chansey, or mention how it's not much less effective than its fellow Ground-types in A rank, Hippowdon and Landorus-T. Comparisons are the best ways to determine viability.

BLACKLISTED POKEMON

• Arcanine
• Florges
• Donphan
• Heliolisk
• Darmanitan

Let's get something straight; Arc was blacklisted basically at the start of the gen and the circumstances have greatly changed since then. I'd be willing to bet that the reasons for that occurrence were very far from being valid right now because Arcanine has a nearly competition-free niche in being virtually the only true counter to Mega Mawile. Mega Venusaur isn't as good because it doesn't usually have much to hit Mawile with for starters, and it also gets OHKO'd by a +2 Iron Head after SR, which makes it a bit shaky and Venu is often overloaded making it easy to wear down. Arc is actually underrated as a bulky fire-type with access to recovery, a great ability in Intimidate, and priority. It can cripple switch-ins with WoW and finish off weakened foes with E-Speed, which is actually surprisingly useful for Stall teams.

I have a replay here against one of the most common modern HO teams (Deo/Sharp/Aegi/Lando/Thundy/Mawile) in which Arcanine was easily the MVP; he crippled Aegi with WoW, rendered Mawile dead weight and eliminated it, and finished off two big threats with E-Speed in dire circumstances:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-135852796

He is a legitimate option for a member of a FWG stall core and so far I've in many cases preferred him over Heatran because of access to reliable recovery, intimidate, priority, and not getting destroyed by SubPunch Mawile sets. It can also invest in a small amount of speed to outspeed Bisharp so it can get in a WoW or Blitz before it can strike.

Arcanine @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Extreme Speed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

Now, for that comparison you were after. Moltress is currently D rank, and I can definitely say with confidence that Arcanine is much better than it. Moltress has an almost inexcusable 4x SR weakness which basically completely destroys any defensive ability it may have otherwise had, as a single double switch with rocks up renders it useless. This isn't the case with Arcanine, as it can counter the things it's meant to even with rocks up and only 2x is much more manageable. Furthermore, we see other things like Gourgeist-Small in C, Gastrodon and Toxicroak in C- and Snorlax in D and there's just no way that any of those can claim to have a more important role than what Arcanine can fill. You yourself have had experience with "Stalltini", and Arcanine is basically a more reliable version of that because of having access to recovery, intimidate, and not having an extra psychic typing which is generally a burden. Arcanine for C-.

 

[Red Cat]

Victini: I think it should be moved up to B+. The raw power of CB V-Create is incredible. It does more damage to a neutral target than Mega Medicham's HJK and Mega Medicham is in B+ rank. Almost nothing on stall teams can stop Victini except for Quagsire which is 2HKO'ed with a little prior damage. Its pixie defenses allow it to usually take a hit and OHKO almost any offensive threat.

Weavile: I'd leave it in B-. Glass cannons just aren't as good in this meta where there are plenty of bulky offensive threats and priority. Other glass cannons like Mega Absol and Mega Alakazam are arguably better than Weavile and they are B-. Weavile can't do shit to most stall teams and it is not a great Pursuit trapper since some common Pursuit targets like Latios can just stay in and blast Weavile instead of being forced into a checkmate like Bisharp and TTar can do.

Gliscor: I'd leave it in B+. Gliscor's 75 / 125 / 75 defenses are not that great compared to Lando-T and Hippowdon. It also has a disappointing attack stat compared to the other two. It also faces competition from Quagsire which can stop set-up sweepers with Unaware. The Toxic stall set is hopelessly walled by Skarmory, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W with Rest, and any Steel type with a Balloon. It sucks when Gliscor can set up a Substitute and still be set-up bait against these threats. Gliscor has a lot of good moves, but it has severe 4MSS and its offensive options hit very softly. From a stall perspective, it is definitely not better than Quagsire which is B+ rank.

Hippowdon: I have used Hippowdon on several of my stall teams and while its raw bulk gives it an advantage over other physical walls, its pure Ground typing does not do it any favors. It struggles against set-up sweepers unlike Quagsire. It is definitely not as good as Mega Venusaur as an all around physical wall. Hippowdon is good, but A+ is overselling it. Keep it in A.

Amoongus: I like using this on my stall teams because of the flexibility it gives me with the mega slot over Mega Venusaur, but I don't like how piss weak Amoongus is and how easily it is walled. Its purpose on stall teams is to stop specific threats, not to be a general purpose wall. It is definitely not as good as Chansey, but I think it is better overall than Chestnaught defensively, so B+ seems about right for it.

 

[Srn]

Victini: I think it should be moved up to B+. The raw power of CB V-Create is incredible. It does more damage to a neutral target than Mega Medicham's HJK and Mega Medicham is in B+ rank. Almost nothing on stall teams can stop Victini except for Quagsire which is 2HKO'ed with a little prior damage. Its pixie defenses allow it to usually take a hit and OHKO almost any offensive threat.

Weavile: I'd leave it in B-. Glass cannons just aren't as good in this meta where there are plenty of bulky offensive threats and priority. Other glass cannons like Mega Absol and Mega Alakazam are arguably better than Weavile and they are B-. Weavile can't do shit to most stall teams and it is not a great Pursuit trapper since some common Pursuit targets like Latios can just stay in and blast Weavile instead of being forced into a checkmate like Bisharp and TTar can do.

Gliscor: I'd leave it in B+. Gliscor's 75 / 125 / 75 defenses are not that great compared to Lando-T and Hippowdon. It also has a disappointing attack stat compared to the other two. It also faces competition from Quagsire which can stop set-up sweepers with Unaware. The Toxic stall set is hopelessly walled by Skarmory, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W with Rest, and any Steel type with a Balloon. It sucks when Gliscor can set up a Substitute and still be set-up bait against these threats. Gliscor has a lot of good moves, but it has severe 4MSS and its offensive options hit very softly. From a stall perspective, it is definitely not better than Quagsire which is B+ rank.

Hippowdon: I have used Hippowdon on several of my stall teams and while its raw bulk gives it an advantage over other physical walls, its pure Ground typing does not do it any favors. It struggles against set-up sweepers unlike Quagsire. It is definitely not as good as Mega Venusaur as an all around physical wall. Hippowdon is good, but A+ is overselling it. Keep it in A.

Amoongus: I like using this on my stall teams because of the flexibility it gives me with the mega slot over Mega Venusaur, but I don't like how piss weak Amoongus is and how easily it is walled. Its purpose on stall teams is to stop specific threats, not to be a general purpose wall. It is definitely not as good as Chansey, but I think it is better overall than Chestnaught defensively, so B+ seems about right for it.

I agree with more or less everything you have to say (u didn't talk about taunt+wow victini, which was the main focus on it (beats mega medi n mega mawile)) but you got gliscor totally wrong bro. Comparing it to quagsire? really? Listen, the set that people are using right now is a sp. def one with roost/taunt/toxic/knock off or eq and its a total bitch to face, more so than subtoxic i'd say.
I sorta don't wanna type all this shit again so i'm gonna quote myself <_< >_>

I definitely support Gliscor for A-

I've seen a sp. def set running about in a lot of higher end matches I've seen, something like eq/roost/taunt/toxic, with special defense investment, and honestly, its not surprising at all to see why one would consider such a set.
I don't know the exact ev spread, but this Gliscor was taking only about 60%~ from an uninvested Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, Roosting it off, and occasionally Toxic'ing a predicted switch in. Not only does it serve as an excellent answer to aegislash as well, we all know gliscor is no slouch on the defensive spectrum, easily taking anything the dangerous Sand Rush Excadrill can dish out.

Not only that, I can imagine this gliscor set taking on bisharp very well, atleast better than lando-t can, and the only real advantages I'm seeing Lando-T bring over this guy is Intimidate! Gliscor has access to everything else Lando-T can do, just at a much lower strength, in exchange for amazing survivability. It's like a defensive team's lando-T that's....even more defensive!!

But damn it doesn't stop there, this sp. def spread can also check Lando-I if its not Cm! You can toxic, sit back, and roost away as it tries in vain to psychic (gotta watch out for the rare hp ice tho :/ ) This is something Lando-T could never do, atleast not as efficiently (AV lando-t is mediocre frens)

With all the great roles this new set seems to cover, a boost in ranking makes sense. Gliscor for A-

So yeah hippo, lando-t, and quagsire cannot really check lando-i, aegislash, or even Rotom-w as well as a sp. def gliscor can, which, surprisingly enough, were its former enemies!
I mean this guy just takes on so many mons that are supposed to beat it its fantastic. In such a match-up reliant metagame, this is a huge boon for gliscor. Sure its a significant loss in power in comparison to the others, but if you value survivability and bulk more (and I do), then go with gliscor.

 

[Red Cat]

The specially defensive Gliscor set can check Aegislash and Lando, but it isn't a great wall in general and it definitely should not be in the same rank as Chansey which does better against every other special attacker. Gliscor has its niches, but they shouldn't be enough to justify putting it up in the A- rank.

Edit: The point I am getting at is that the amount of stuff that SDef Gliscor checks / counters is a lot less than amount of stuff it doesn't check / counter. People are only emphasizing its strengths and not any of its many flaws. Chansey and Quagsire have much broader uses than Gliscor which is used to counter specific threats. But don't take my word for it, go read Gliscor's analysis to see why it shouldn't be A- rank.

 

[Jacks0n]

The specially defensive Gliscor set can check Aegislash and Lando, but it isn't a great wall in general and it definitely should not be in the same rank as Chansey which does better against every other special attacker. Gliscor has its niches, but they shouldn't be enough to justify putting it up in the A- rank.

Dude seriously, I dont think you understand sp.defencive gliscor. Lando i and aegi, two of the most if not the two most threatening special attackers in the tier can not break through gliscor. It has amazing recovery in roost + toxic heal, great utility in taunt as well as good utility in knock off and a good stab in eq. It also beats a wide variety of physical attackers such as sand ruch drill, chomp, bish and mega mawhile. The fact that it can take on the two most threatening special attackers in the tier, the fact that it has amazing recovery and can still take on physical attackers warants it a spot in A-. Its sub toxic set is just the icing on the cake. Also the only special attackers chansey beats that gliscor cant is greninja, thundurus, zard y and the latis. On top of that it also beats sub wisp taunt gengar if it runs knock off which destroys chansey. Gliscor is actually really really good and deserves A- IMO.

 

[Karxrida]

Weavile doesn't need Talonflame dead to sweep either, as most Talonflame are Adamant Weavile's Ice Shard outspeeds Talonflame's Brave Bird.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 107-126 (35.9 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 212-251 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Weavile can get past Talonflame as long as it is weakened a little bit, which isnt that hard to do since it is stealth rock weak and relies on recoil moves.

E-Speed doesnt really make Lucario way better than Weavile, as after STAB Ice Shard is base 60, is actually super effective against things, and the extra priority doesnt really matter since Weavile is so fast. Both of them fair about the same against Aegilash. Sacred Sword vaporizes both of them and neither can OHKO it in shield form, although they can threaten to Swords Dance if it chooses to King's Shield. And although Adamant Lucario hits harder than Jolly Weavile, you arent taking into account how much more Weavile can outspeed than Lucario. This lets Weavile stay in when it gets in unlike Lucario, who is, like Weavile, too frail to stay in on much faster than it. Also you're kidding yourself if you think Lucario is ever going to run Iron Tail. Lucario already has 4MSS, 75% accuracy it barely better than Focus Miss Blast, and the two most common fairies, Mega Mawile and Azumarill, aren't even weak to steel.

The main problem with Lucario is that base 110 attack is strong, but not quiet strong enough. Base 90 speed is fast, but not fast enough. Its defensive typing is good, but 70/70/70 is still frail. Lucario is good an all, but not great. Which is why it belongs in B rank, like Weavile.

Also what resists is Lucario ever going to switch in on? Mega Venusaurs Giga Drain? Landorus-T's Knock Off? Garchomp's Outrage? Have fun with all of that ;)

1.) Those calcs aren't even accurate since Talonflame runs some HP EVs. It should look something like this:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 107-126 (34.6 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If it's a Bulk Up set (don't know the spread off the top of my head) there's no way in hell you're winning, and you're set up bait.

2.) Talonflame can just Roost up as you're Ice Sharding it so you still lose.

3.) you can't KO Talonflame after SR with your Life Orb boosted Priority, which is fucking sad.

4.) E-Speed does make Luke better since it makes it harder to revenge and hits neutral targets harder than your neutral Ice Shard. Also priority matters a fuck ton in the this meta (why else would something as fast as Weavile carry a priority move?).

5.) Luke can get past Aegislash because Earthquake does not make contact, which means you don't have to play guessing games if you're carrying it.

6.) The speed doesn't matter since you lose to several significant threats like Keldeo and Greninja that Luke can get past anyway.

7.) Luke's resists give him chances to set up that Weavile doesn't have and his ability can give him a free boost against Knock Off happy opponents like Bisharp (which Luke counters and Weavile doesn't, another HUGE plus for Luke). Hilariously, Luke can check you if you're Knock Off happy and easily beats you otherwise if you're not running Low Kick.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 201-238 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your Life Orb recoil or SR damage means you dead bro.

8.) Just for fun.
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 64-76 (22.7 - 27%) -- 43% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 86-102 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 50.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 77-91 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 131-155 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, totally can't switch into shit at all.
(An Outraging Garchomp is set up bait if you come in after something dies, btw)

 

[Rainman Legends]

1.) Those calcs aren't even accurate since Talonflame runs some HP EVs. It should look something like this:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 107-126 (34.6 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If it's a Bulk Up set (don't know the spread off the top of my head) there's no way in hell you're winning, and you're set up bait.

2.) Talonflame can just Roost up as you're Ice Sharding it so you still lose.

3.) you can't KO Talonflame after SR with your Life Orb boosted Priority, which is fucking sad.

4.) E-Speed does make Luke better since it makes it harder to revenge and hits neutral targets harder than your neutral Ice Shard. Also priority matters a fuck ton in the this meta (why else would something as fast as Weavile carry a priority move?).

5.) Luke can get past Aegislash because Earthquake does not make contact, which means you don't have to play guessing games if you're carrying it.

6.) The speed doesn't matter since you lose to several significant threats like Keldeo and Greninja that Luke can get past anyway.

7.) Luke's resists give him chances to set up that Weavile doesn't have and his ability can give him a free boost against Knock Off happy opponents like Bisharp (which Luke counters and Weavile doesn't, another HUGE plus for Luke). Hilariously, Luke can check you if you're Knock Off happy and easily beats you otherwise if you're not running Low Kick.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 201-238 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your Life Orb recoil or SR damage means you dead bro.

8.) Just for fun.
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 64-76 (22.7 - 27%) -- 43% chance to 4Hk KO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 86-102 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 50.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 77-91 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 131-155 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, totally can't switch into shit at all.
(An Outraging Garchomp is set up bait if you come in after something dies, btw)

Bulk Up Talonflame runs 252 HP/ 252 SpDef with Careful. Weavile can't do crap to BU Talonflame as talon can roost to full health and can hit Weavile with a Will-O-Wisp, taking Weavile out for the rest of the match and making Weavile complete Set-up bait.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 107-126 (29.7 - 35%) -- 13.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb burned Weavile Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 53-62 (14.7 - 17.2%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 71-86 (19.7 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Life Orb burned Weavile Ice Shard vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 35-43 (9.7 - 11.9%) -- possible 9HKO

 

[Rhaegar]

Another plus point for Gliscor over things like Lando-T and Hippowdon is being that status absorber which all balance teams need. Lando-T and Hippo detest Toxic, Burns, and Spore. While Gliscor protects its teammates from these while being able to take on most status spreaders 1v1, even Water types like Rotom and Slowbro.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

even Water types like Rotom and Slowbro.

Could you explain how it can take on Rotom or Slowbro, I'm having trouble understanding how that's possible. From what I understand, it switches into Slowbro to absorb the Toxic, and then Slobro just spams scald/ice beam until Gliscor switches out. I guess you could sub/protect until Hydro pump is out of PP, but it can't really switch in because of the possibility of a hydro pump. Also, sans toxic, Gliscor can't do shit to Rotom with any move, and it can't toxic Rotom because it'll take a hydro pump to the face. Also if it's chesto/rest Rotom, Gliscor can't win.

 

[Rhaegar]

Could you explain how it can take on Rotom or Slowbro, I'm having trouble understanding how that's possible. From what I understand, it switches into Slowbro to absorb the Toxic, and then Slobro just spams scald/ice beam until Gliscor switches out. I guess you could sub/protect until Hydro pump is out of PP, but it can't really switch in because of the possibility of a hydro pump. Also, sans toxic, Gliscor can't do shit to Rotom with any move, and it can't toxic Rotom because it'll take a hydro pump to the face. Also if it's chesto/rest Rotom, Gliscor can't win.

Here's the set I run.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 200 SDef / 64 Spd
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Taunt / Knock Off
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Gliscor heals off 62.5% with Roost + PH so anything slower than it which does not do significantly more than that is easily Toxic stalled. Rotom in particular gets only 8 Hydro Pumps out of which the occasional miss is likely. Sub Gliscor can also PP stall Hydro Pump by simply spamming Subs and Protects. I believe no other Ground Type can take any of the following defensive Water Pokemon on due to their water attacks, ability to spread status, and recovery. Gliscor absorbs status and beats all of them with Toxic-Roost stall while hindering their recovery with Taunt. It does however lose to things which carry Ice Beam, though rare.

4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 228-270 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 158-188 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 114-134 (32.3 - 38%) -- 76.5% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 170-204 (48.2 - 57.9%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 80-96 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 158-188 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

Here's the set I run.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 200 SDef / 64 Spd
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Taunt / Knock Off
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Gliscor heals off 66% with Roost + PH so anything slower than it which does not do significantly more than that is easily Toxic stalled. Rotom in particular gets only 8 Hydro Pumps out of which the occasional miss is likely. Sub Gliscor can also PP stall Hydro Pump by simply spamming Subs and Protects. I believe no other Ground Type can take any of the following defensive Water Pokemon on due to their water attacks, ability to spread status, and recovery. Gliscor absorbs status and beats all of them with Toxic-Roost stall while hindering their recovery with Taunt. It does however lose to things which carry Ice Beam, though rare.

4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 228-270 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 158-188 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 114-134 (32.3 - 38%) -- 76.5% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 170-204 (48.2 - 57.9%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 80-96 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 158-188 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

Ah ok, didn't know you were running a special set. I think the problem with that set is, while it can beat the pokemon mentioned, it loses out on beating other physical threats.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 202-238 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - can't switch in and doesn't OHKO back
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 195-229 (55.3 - 65%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal - outright loses to
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 364-429 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 298-352 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO - can't OHKO back, so it loses here
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 229-271 (65 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal - again, can't even come cose to OHKOing back, so it loses here

Whereas usage Gliscor
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 159-187 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal - beats
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal - can't really "beat" if it only has EQ, but can actually get off a toxic and get out of there with some health back
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 285-335 (80.5 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal - can't be OHKOd nad has a possibility of KOing back after life orb damage. Either way, the next time Bisharp attacks, it's dead.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 180-213 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal - beats after protect

This isn't even factoring in max def Gliscor, which does even better. I'm not saying your set is bad, but I think that it's a bit of a shame to not take advantage of that sexy 125 defense.

 

[Aragorn the King]

What would people think about ranking Alomomola and/or Mantine. Both are borderline analysis worthy (Mega Luvdisc is getting one btw), so they're clearly worth at least the D rank. Alomomola is very useful as a Wish passer, it can Mirror Coat massive Special Attacks for the KO, and it recovers 33% of its health simply by switching out. It easily fits in FWG cores, and also works great with other Regenerator Pokemon, like Amoonguss. Mantine, on the other hand, is a niche Defogger that is able to very easily beat Landorus, Mega Charizard-Y, Keldeo, and other Special attackers. It's nice also as it has two immunities and lacks the nasty Grass weakness that most Water-types have. I'll tag these members, as they all know a bit about at least one of these two: Chillarmy TRC Jukain Dice alexwolf Agent Gibbs Branflakes325 . Right now I'm thinking C rank for Alomomola and D rank for Mantine, but I'm not sure.

In addition to those, I'll comment on the other Pokemon at hand now.

Victini: Solid B rank in my opinion. It has the versatility of Mew with the overall effectiveness of Tornadus-T. Depending on the opposing team, Victini and Tornadus-T won't always contribute a lot, but they generally will. They are both matchup based, and when faced with a team they perform well, they will do superbly. It's much better than everything in B-, barring Ampharos and Aerodactyl, but those two I think are held back because they take the Mega slot. It's also imho better than Conkeldurr, Gothitelle, and Manectric, who all fit the definition of B rank perfectly. Victini definitely fits in with those better.

Weavile: I'm not really sure about this one. You really have to compare it with Lucario to see if it's worth B, and I don't think it compares favorably. Its priority is weak, its Ice STAB is weak, it has trouble fitting all of the moves it wants into one set, and it's forced to run Jolly, so it loses out on a lot of power. However, it certainly has its benefits. Ice is a better typing than normal, and a resisted Knock Off is certainly more crippling than a resisted Close Combat. Its Speed is its biggest draw, and it's basically what makes it viable. In my opinion it fits better with the high risk high reward Pokemon in B-, like Staraptor, Entei, and Crawdaunt.

Dragonite: I know TFL hates it, but idk if it should go down at all. CBBNites is a great glue for BO teams, CBNite is a great revenge killer, and DDNite is a nice sweeper. Its last role is highly contested by Charizard, but its other two are largely uncontested and very good. It belongs in A, maybe A+, but certainly not A-.

Gliscor: omfg the Specially Defensive set is so good. How did I just hear about it now? It wishes it had more bulk, but its combination of 62.5% recovery per turn when using roost and 12.5% otherwise, Taunt, a reasonably powerful Earthquake, Toxic, and the nice Flying-type without the Electric and Rock weaknesses make it a definite A- Pokemon, no doubt. To be honest, I think if/once it rises, it'll be the third best A- Pokemon.

Hippowdon: I'm not sure. This guy is always promising, but it never does that well for me. Its bulk, while good, never seems to be good enough. Maybe I'm just trying to use it in ways it shouldn't. Anyway, that's enough personal reflection. It isn't as metagame defining as Tyranitar, Keldeo, or Talonflame; rather, it's an extremely good Pokemon sitting in the shadows of the titans, similar to Terrakion, Heatran, and Mandibuzz.

Amoonguss: Definite B+ rank in my opinion. It's practically mandatory on defensive teams not using Ferrothorn. Its combination of great bulk, accurate Sleep, setup deterrence, and instant recovery make it an insanely good defensive Pokemon.

Also, one last thought now; what's keeping Latios from A+? I view it as one of the metagame defining Pokemon, like the ones I mentioned earlier. Its Draco is a nuke, it has the coveted Psychic coverage for Venusaur, and it has Defog to eliminate hazards. It's extremely common, and for a good reason. When teambuilding, you really have to think about it as much as you do Clefable and Keldeo - certainly much more than its A rank brethren.