Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)

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Jaiho

bandy legged troll
Well I find it unfortunate that none of you bother to question exactly what tiering is or just exactly how insignificant the community is to the entire tiering process but I do like the honest answers you gave me thanks. I apologize for bringing up my opinion on second thought this thread isn't really the place for that.
Community voting is a sign of no significance I guess
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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Very nice post here. I have also used Hitmonchan as a spinner in RU to some success:

Hitmonchan (M) @ Assault Vest
Trait: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 SpD
Nature: Careful
-Drain Punch
-Rapid Spin
-Mach Punch
-Ice Punch/Fire Punch

Hitmonchan packs quite a punch with a solid attack stat and Iron Fist. If I have a cleric I can even afford to use Hitmonchan as my main special wall in many cases since its special defense is insane with this spread. Drain Punch also compensates for the lack of recovery from Leftovers. Ice Punch hits a wide range of targets, namely Gligar, but Fire Punch can be used as a niche move for the 4x weak targets.

As far as the concept of weird spinners goes, I remember how I was criticized on the NU Forums Gen 5 for defending Armaldo as a spinner; let's not start there again unless I can prove its worth with replays :P
Hitmonchan is not a good spinner (or even a good Pokemon for that matter) and here's why. Firstly, especially with this set, Hitmonchan cannot touch any spinblocker in RU, as it struggles to bypass any of them. Doublade just uses you as setup fodder and is bulky enough to take a Fire Punch, Mega Banette wears you down and cripples you with WoW, Cofag sets up, etc. In addition, Hitmonchan in general is a pretty poor Pokemon in RU atm because it's outclassed by every viable Fighting-type in the tier. If you really wanted a Fighting-type who can spin, just use Hitmonlee, since it can hit spinblockers hard with Knock Off and has far more power to be able to wallbreak. Hitmonchan does not hit that hard, and is weak compared to other Fighting-types. Gallade also has more power and has Zen Headbutt to hit Amoonguss and Dragalge. Heck, if I really wanted to, I could use Hariyama or Primeape over this thing since at least the former is ridiculously strong and the latter has U-turn and Defiant which is nice. My point is, not only does Hitmonchan make an awful spinner, there is basically zero reason to use it over any Fighting-type available. Gurdurr is much better since it's more resilient and has Knock Off, and pretty much every tool Hitmonchan has except Rapid Spin, which doesn't even matter because Hitmonchan is horrible at spinning. Don't even bring up Foresight since it's a waste of a moveslot, and Hitmontop is better at Foresight spinning.

So yeah, Hitmonchan is really, really bad in RU atm and should absolutely not be used. Also, that EV spread is trash since HP is needed for Hitmonchan since it has abysmal HP. AV Hitmonchan is pretty bad in general honestly since it's weak and provides nothing that another Pokemon can't.

I'll post my thoughts about Shuckle later but just wanted to get that in.
 
I made a similar post earlier, but it got drowned out by Invisi's posts.

I've been laddering a bit with a Sticky Web team and am shocked at how easy it is to win with it. It took me literally 5 minutes to come up with the team and have barely lost since. Really, all you need is Shuckle + Doublade + Braviary and whichever other wallbreakers you like.

Something I've also noticed (which hasn't been brought up yet) was that all of the wins have been very 'easy'. Only a basic knowledge of the game was required from me, as all all I had to do (essentially) was click whichever move was super effective. Occasionally I came up against a Pokemon such as Rotom-Mow that I was helpless against, but for the most part, the opponent couldn't do anything avoid being swept. Sticky Web (and by that I mean Shuckle) seriously needs the boot.

If I can get the ladder requirements (which will be for the first time ever), I will definitely be voting to kick Shuckle out of the tier.
 
I found toxic spikes stall very easy to ladder with in comparison to any of my generic web teams. If the opposing team was heavy web offense, but lacking in powerful wallbreakers, I'd easily win games through spike stacking, wish passing, and tactful switching (pivoting on alomomola for dayysss). However, if the opposing team had a heavy hitter like Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega, Specs Exploud, or Zangoose (this thing gave me tons of trouble tbh), my team's job became much harder. Although the playstyle worked well vs. many web teams, it doesn't mean that Shuckle isn't broken. Why? Although my team attempted to prey on Sticky Web reliance (and usually did a good job of it), I was never actually able to prevent Shuckle from doing its job; it's just so damn bulky that it will get up Web, and likely Web+Rocks vs. offensive and defensive teams alike. Any attempts at quick hazard removal are punished to different degrees by Infestation, Encore, or Knock Off, and it's bulky enough that it can come in once or twice later in the game to put the hazards right back up if they've been removed. It's essentially the Deoxys-D of the tier; it gets its hazard(s) up almost 100% of the time, and it can do so more than once throughout the match if need be.

Shuckle is an awesome webber, but unfortunately has too much swag for the tier to handle. RIP in pizza
 

EonX

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There's no way I'm really going to have enough time to make reqs for this stage between C&C and IRL stuff, but I do want to talk about a couple of things I've been using:

Sub + Bulk Up Braviary: This thing terrorizes Stall teams. They often lack the firepower to break its Subs after a boost or two, and typical phazers fare poorly against it. Thanks to being able to make 101 HP Subs, it can even set up against Registeel, a typical response for Stall teams. However, with Sticky Web support, it can tear apart balanced and bulky offense teams that have lost their Scarfer / Levitate mon. Sets up on Alomomola, sets up on Registeel, immune to Toxic Spikes, blocks Dragon Tail with Sub, and deters Defog thanks to Defiant. Great choice for almost any Web Offense team that's weak to Stall.

Taunt + Swords Dance Drapion: If you want something on Web Offense that just makes Stall cry, this is a good choice. Add in the fact that it can actually destroy opposing TR teams as well, and this guy becomes super cool for Web teams. It absorbs TSpikes upon entry, so no more wearing down wallbreakers for Stall. It can basically solo against TR teams when played correctly as most members of those teams are slower than Drapion and weak to its STAB moves. It also likes Sticky Web to slow down the likes of Delphox, Virizion, and Jolteon to the point where it can outspeed and OHKO them. All around solid option for any Web offense team needing a way around Stall, TSpikes in general, and TR.
 

Pidge

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Does anyone else appreciate Weezing right now? It's been discussed that Toxic Spikes and a defensive team can whittle down offensive Shuckle teams, but I feel like Weezing is especially effective at using Toxic Spikes. I only mention it because I didn't see Weezing a lot on other teams.

Toxic Spikes absorbers and Pokemon immune to poison, such as Doublade, Cobalion, Amoonguss, (typical) Drapion, and Escavalier, can't really touch Weezing and/or don't like being burned by Will-o-Wisp. Special attackers, such as Jolteon, Clawitzer, Zoroark, and Exploud, may be the best way to kill Weezing, but they are put on a death timer by Toxic Spikes and possibly Life Orb. Registeel, Alomomola, and Cresselia can play around these special attackers and watch them die slowly. In fact, these Pokemon can stall out most physical attackers that are poisoned as well. This is basically what I did to reach voting reqs. My other two Pokemon were Doublade, the spin blocker that makes most Rapid Spin users look like a joke, and Sharpedo to clean things up, if needed. Sharpedo might be replaceable for another defensive Pokemon, maybe something to handle the two Pokemon mentioned in the post above this one. I think I actually played against that Drapion once or twice and lost terribly.
 

Blizzard

@ NeverMeltIce
Shuckle's the only Sticky Web user to get Stealth Rock, ignore Taunt at least once, and is able to reliably set up both hazards during the course of the match, thanks to its bulk. It can use Encore to lock the opponent into Rapid Spin/Defog which members like Doublade and Braviary can take advantage of. The other SticKy Web users aren't as bulky, need Focus Sash to be remotely reliable, and are too slow to evade Taunt. They lack Stealth rock, necessitating the need to run another Pokemon for it (something like Cobalion). That is a huge advantage Shuckle has over other setters. It works on its own, providing immense support to teammates throughout the match. Spinning is definitely not an easy task with the presence of ghosts, most notably, Doublade. Hitmonlee's frailty and lessened speed means that it may not outlive shuckle and carry off the spin. Hitmontop can Foresight+spin, but does little otherwise to pose a threat. Defog is a risky thing with the threat of Braviary on the SW team. Shuckle is slower than every spinner/defogger, meaning that by the end of a turn, it's guaranteed to have hazards up. There's Encore too.

Permanent speed control is huge. It means the SW user has the upper hand throughout the match. With Sticky Web up, the other team always has to rely on match-up, which is a problem since there are a thousand wallbreakers in RU. Exploud, Yanmega, Hitmonlee, Magneton, etc. do heavy damage regardless of type resistances and stuff, it's not even funny.
It's not hard to go wrong with a Shuckle Offense. It beats non SW offensive teams quite easily. Immense pressure is put on stall teams by the likes of the aforementioned Pokemon. Stuff like Moltres, Rotom-C, Yanmega, Braviary, Swellow, Fletchinder tend to put a lot of pressure on SW teams though, since they don't care about SW. Moltres is probably the greatest danger; LO/specs hurts. Rotom-C doesn't care about hazards and can be very irritating with Volt-Switch. LO/SubBU variants of Braviary are very devastating too. But apart from these, there are very few answers.

Honestly, when there's a single team that has enjoyed continuous and easy success, it's not hard to see why anyone wants Shuckle banned. Right now, it's the sole reason why SW+wallbreakers are broken.
 
I know Meru uses Weezing on his stall team and generally has good things to say about it as a counter to basically all the fighting types in the tier (CB Sawk EQ lol).

It can do a lot of fun things on a stall team like set up tspikes and wow things, but it really has a problem with its shitty recovery options. Knock off hurts it way more than it does most stall mons because that passive recovery from leftovers is basically all it has (there's pain split but I once looked up the definition of unreliable and that's all there was there).

Still with the great wish support that's in the tier from Aromatisse and Alomomola it can do great.
 

Mew2

Sex is overrated
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I know Meru uses Weezing on his stall team and generally has good things to say about it as a counter to basically all the fighting types in the tier (CB Sawk EQ lol).
I don't think that Weezing can counter Gallade, especially Sub Bulk Up variants or CB ones
 

Nova

snitches get stitches
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I believe the problem with Shuckle is that it centralizes the metagame by creating a strategy that is not only very effective, but also formulaic. This is similar to the problem with Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S in OU and also to a extent a reason why Baton Pass was nerfed in OU. All of these created strategies that are formulaic in that each game you basically follow a list of steps and if you can follow those steps you win the game. There's very little anyone can "outplay" Shuckle Web Offense and the winner is usually predetermined at team matchup. And speaking of matchups, Web Offense has many great matchups and the only one that I feel it may struggle a bit with is against stall, however, even then it has ways to defeat stall without too much of a hassle. Shuckle creates a strategy that is unhealthy for the metagame because it unhealthy; defeating Web Offense lies in team building rather than play making the majority of the time.

The formula for Web Offense is very simple. Get Stealth Rock and Sticky Web up with Shuckle, prevent them from getting Rapid Spun away with Doublade, keep pressure with your 5 offensive threats to prevent Defog, and mindlessly spam Brave Bird with Braviary, High Jump Kick with Hitmonlee, and Boomburst with Exploud. These attacks are so powerful that they can break apart teams without really having to worry about type coverage. At first I thought that Web Offense may not be banworthy because it could struggle against stall, as Shuckle is fairly useless against stall and leads to a 5v6 matchup, putting offense at a disadvantage. However, after seeing the power of Boomburst Exploud my previous mindset has been completely erased. Exploud just smashes stall with his extraordinary power as he 2HKOs Doublade, making resistances even a non factor. Also as others have mentioned, there's things like Sub BU Braviary that can be used on Web Offense to just improve the Stall matchup even more.

Lastly, there's really no argument that Shuckle is not the best support in the tier. Other Web users such as Ariados and Masquerain aren't as good mainly because they lack Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock is pretty crucial for any team and Shuckle has the bulk to get up both Rocks and Web so he's basically doing what 2 Pokemon would do if you used something like Ariados.
 

Aerow

rebel
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I've been playing around a bit on the ladder, and have come up with a core that is brutally dangerous.


Togetic @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 40 SAtk / 168 Def / 52 SDef
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Roost
- Fire Blast



Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 16 Def / 252 Spd / 240 SAtk
Modest Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball / HP Ground
- Protect

The premise is pretty simple to be honest: Togetic passes a Nasty Plot boost to Yanmega, who then OHKOs everything. It's that simple. literally the only mons that avoid the OHKO from +2 Yanamega are Aromatisse, Registeel, Escavalier and Dragalge. Togetic uses Fire Blast to be able to weaken certain bothersome Pokemon for the Pokemon you want to pass to (other recipients I have/had on the team are Magneton/Jolteon, as they don't care about Fletchinder) Delphox, specially based Sharpedo. The latter is also just as much of a monster as Yanmega lol, but has to be more wary with priority. The beauty of Togetic is that it has such a slow Baton Pass, and the things that you want it to outspeed and weaken (AV Escavalier and Doublade) are outsped and OHKOd by Fire Blast anyway (that's what the SAtk EVs are for). The SDef EVs allow it to avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Delphox's Fire Blast, and the rest are just bumped into Defense to take advantage of that gorgeous typing. This pretty massive bulk allow it to get a Baton Pass off against even super effective attacks, giving my cleaner a free switch in, and it can then easily sweep teams. Basically, just pass to whatever recipient cleans up the opposing team easiest (mostly Yanmega). The choice of non STAB move on Yanmega depends on whether you want to KO Bronzong, or put a bigger dent in Dragalge and Registeel (I prefer Shadow Ball because I also run Dugtrio). Both OHKO Doublade. Jolteon as a team member also can lure in things for Togetic to set up on, as it's much better to get Togetic in for free than bringing it in on an attack, as it needs all the bulk it can get. Hazard removal support is also obviously pretty vital. All in all it's pretty scary how many teams this can just steamroll, and it doesn't have to be lategame either. The fact that Yanmega doesn't give a crap about Sticky Web or Spikes either is just icing on top.
I have tried the Togemega core for a while now, and I can confirm it is working extremely well. Because of Togetic's fantastic bulk and good typing, I could in many matches set-up two Nasty Plots and Baton Pass to Yanmega, letting Yanmega OHKO the whole meta. And since Togetic is really slow, Yanmega doesn't take any damage while being Baton Passed to either. Togetic also lures in Escavalier, and can surprise it with a Fire Blast. Sucker Punch and hazards are a big problem though, but aside from that, a very solid offensive core, that is also extremely fun to use.
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
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Also Hot N Cold is the one who originally brought the Weez. I just made it cuter and purpler (◕‿◕✿)
I've been using it as well and for a p. long time and I can confirm that it rocks

There's no way I'm really going to have enough time to make reqs for this stage between C&C and IRL stuff, but I do want to talk about a couple of things I've been using:

Sub + Bulk Up Braviary: This thing terrorizes Stall teams. They often lack the firepower to break its Subs after a boost or two, and typical phazers fare poorly against it. Thanks to being able to make 101 HP Subs, it can even set up against Registeel, a typical response for Stall teams. However, with Sticky Web support, it can tear apart balanced and bulky offense teams that have lost their Scarfer / Levitate mon. Sets up on Alomomola, sets up on Registeel, immune to Toxic Spikes, blocks Dragon Tail with Sub, and deters Defog thanks to Defiant. Great choice for almost any Web Offense team that's weak to Stall.

Taunt + Swords Dance Drapion: If you want something on Web Offense that just makes Stall cry, this is a good choice. Add in the fact that it can actually destroy opposing TR teams as well, and this guy becomes super cool for Web teams. It absorbs TSpikes upon entry, so no more wearing down wallbreakers for Stall. It can basically solo against TR teams when played correctly as most members of those teams are slower than Drapion and weak to its STAB moves. It also likes Sticky Web to slow down the likes of Delphox, Virizion, and Jolteon to the point where it can outspeed and OHKO them. All around solid option for any Web offense team needing a way around Stall, TSpikes in general, and TR.
These mons are why I run specially defensive Rhyperior on stall. Sadly, not running Registeel makes it awfully weak to Exploud, but then again, Exploud has literally zero safe switchins in RU. Honestly, I feel like the offensive prowess and phazing it brings makes it a very viable option on stall, it might not have the raw bulk or resistances that Registeel possesses, but I really feel like stall in RU already has so many great mons that wall half the tier that it's not that big of a deal. Phazing is essential tbh, especially considering RU lacks great phazers imo. Also Rhyp can still tank a Boomburst or two.

In all honesty tho I really dislike Exploud, it becomes way too much of a button in that you can click Boomburst and watch something die most of the time. Its speed is hindering and it's hard to switch in, but it literally pulverizes anything on defensive teams :[
 
These mons are why I run specially defensive Rhyperior on stall. Sadly, not running Registeel makes it awfully weak to Exploud, but then again, Exploud has literally zero safe switchins in RU. Honestly, I feel like the offensive prowess and phazing it brings makes it a very viable option on stall, it might not have the raw bulk or resistances that Registeel possesses, but I really feel like stall in RU already has so many great mons that wall half the tier that it's not that big of a deal. Phazing is essential tbh, especially considering RU lacks great phazers imo. Also Rhyp can still tank a Boomburst or two.

In all honesty tho I really dislike Exploud, it becomes way too much of a button in that you can click Boomburst and watch something die most of the time. Its speed is hindering and it's hard to switch in, but it literally pulverizes anything on defensive teams :[
As much as removing Shuckle's Web support makes Exploud a much lesser threat (since you can actually revenge kill it), the ban also removes the best Exploud check in the tier. Like Registeel, Shuckle really doesn't care about Boomburst, however it has two other perks. Thanks to surf being weaker than fire/focus blast, it relies on rocks to 2HKO even if it predicts the switch and hits you super-effectively. More importantly, the access it gets to Knock Off means that it can remove the specs, allowing ordinary special walls like Aromatisse to stall it out at later points in the game.
 

Mew2

Sex is overrated
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In all honesty tho I really dislike Exploud, it becomes way too much of a button in that you can click Boomburst and watch something die most of the time. Its speed is hindering and it's hard to switch in, but it literally pulverizes anything on defensive teams :[
I understand why you feel that way, but Exploud is a wallbreaker after all, it's meant to have zero switches sure you can argue that clicking a single move lacks skill and is cheap (which isn't true at all since some things in the tier can tank Specs Boomburst such as AV Escavalier, Registeel and your Rhyperior) but a lot of other wallbreakers do the same in the tier, here is an example of one of the fastes and strongest wallbreakers in the tier and my personal favorite:


Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- U-turn
- Sleep talk / Shadow Ball

Screw Exploud this is THE wallbreaker of the tier with Choice Specs and Tinted Lens Yanmega can destroy anything that doesn't x4 resist Bug Buzz and unlike Exploud it can't be revenge killed easily thanks to a solid base speed stat and with hazards suppor (especially SR and Sw) Yanmega will perform a lot better. U-turn is there for momentum and the last moveslot depends on what your team needs: if a sleep absorber is needed Sleep talk is the better option and if you need to hit Doublade use Shadow Ball.
Some fun calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rhyperior: 231-273 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not even a specially defensive Rhyperior can switch into this thing.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 174-204 (42.8 - 50.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Aromatisse needs to be at full health to wall Yanmega risking a posible Special Defense drop or crit.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV Slowking can't switch even with his massive Special Defense boosted by Assault Vest.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Druddigon: 172-204 (48 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Finally it 2HKOes OP Druddigon after rocks OML!
 

Corporal Levi

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As much as removing Shuckle's Web support makes Exploud a much lesser threat (since you can actually revenge kill it), the ban also removes the best Exploud check in the tier. Like Registeel, Shuckle really doesn't care about Boomburst, however it has two other perks. Thanks to surf being weaker than fire/focus blast, it relies on rocks to 2HKO even if it predicts the switch and hits you super-effectively. More importantly, the access it gets to Knock Off means that it can remove the specs, allowing ordinary special walls like Aromatisse to stall it out at later points in the game.
I'm not sure if I'd consider Shuckle the best check in the tier; not only is it usually weakened significantly earlier on due to its role, but its weakness to stealth rock means it will probably only be checking Exploud once on a good day, and more likely none at all. Even with Exploud's Choice Specs removed, Exploud still 2HKOs physically defensive Aromatisse, so stalling Boomburst out could be difficult. I think Shuckle's banning will be mostly detrimental to Exploud.

Regarding stall, I've found Registeel to be almost mandatory on such archetypes to check things like Exploud and Yanmega, even with its numerous downfalls; I suppose other Pokemon could theoretically replace it to some extent, but I've just found Registeel very reliable at its job.
To check SubBU Braviary, which I have found is indeed a massive threat to most stall teams, I've been trying out defensive electric-types, specifically defensive Jolteon. To be brutally honest, it hasn't been quite as impressive as I'd hoped, even with a nice supportive movepool containing Wish and Heal Bell, but for the most part, it can keep that specific variant of Braviary under control (it takes a ton of damage from Return from other variants, though), and also helps deal with a few other Pokemon like LO Jolteon variants through Wish+Protect stall and non-HP Ground Magneton, while still possessing some offensive presence. Taunt SD Drapion is a nuisance for sure, but Rhyperior, or to a lesser extent, Gligar, can usually check it a few times.
Other than Exploud and Drapion, I've also found stall to be fairly effective at dealing with Sticky Web teams; as TRC mentioned in an earlier post, even dedicated wall-breakers, with a few exceptions, can sometimes struggle breaking through specific Pokemon. Regarding Zangoose, sometimes it costs a lesser Pokemon, but with a bit of switching, it could probably simply be worn down.
 
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Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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I understand why you feel that way, but Exploud is a wallbreaker after all, it's meant to have zero switches sure you can argue that clicking a single move lacks skill and is cheap (which isn't true at all since some things in the tier can tank Specs Boomburst such as AV Escavalier, Registeel and your Rhyperior) but a lot of other wallbreakers do the same in the tier, here is an example of one of the fastes and strongest wallbreakers in the tier and my personal favorite:


Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- U-turn
- Sleep talk / Shadow Ball

Screw Exploud this is THE wallbreaker of the tier with Choice Specs and Tinted Lens Yanmega can destroy anything that doesn't x4 resist Bug Buzz and unlike Exploud it can't be revenge killed easily thanks to a solid base speed stat and with hazards suppor (especially SR and Sw) Yanmega will perform a lot better. U-turn is there for momentum and the last moveslot depends on what your team needs: if a sleep absorber is needed Sleep talk is the better option and if you need to hit Doublade use Shadow Ball.
Some fun calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rhyperior: 231-273 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not even a specially defensive Rhyperior can switch into this thing.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 174-204 (42.8 - 50.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Aromatisse needs to be at full health to wall Yanmega risking a posible Special Defense drop or crit.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV Slowking can't switch even with his massive Special Defense boosted by Assault Vest.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Druddigon: 172-204 (48 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Finally it 2HKOes OP Druddigon after rocks OML!
You are missing out on Giga Drain! Giga drain is an important thing to have on specs yanmega. Cause idk about you but i have had a hard time keeping rocks off the field using a spinner. Giga drain allows yanmega to come in scare out a pokemon and giga on the switch getting enough hp to allow it to come back in on rocks again. It is also important to note that it OHKOs Rhyperior, which can help keep rocks off of the field. I have actually OHKOd a number of Rhyperiors people left in expecting the endure WP set. Also it is important to note that Bug Buzz will not kill Mola, while giga drain will. I dont see the need of sleep talk as i dont like to let anything get to sleep if i can help it and sleep foddering a wall breaker like yanmega isnt a good play for me. Also I used to run U-turn on my Yanmega but after numerous games of not using it, cause lets be honest nothing really wants to switch into a tinted lense bug buzz, I took it off and put of Defog to allow me to get rocks, and more importantly, webs off the field. After Shuckle is gone i will probably substitute out defog for Shadow Ball, or who knows I might keep it cause stall teams with lots of hazards seem on the rise.
 
I'm not sure if I'd consider Shuckle the best check in the tier; not only is it usually weakened significantly earlier on due to its role, but its weakness to stealth rock means it will probably only be checking Exploud once on a good day, and more likely none at all. Even with Exploud's Choice Specs removed, Exploud still 2HKOs physically defensive Aromatisse, so stalling Boomburst out could be difficult. I think Shuckle's banning will be mostly detrimental to Exploud.

Regarding stall, I've found Registeel to be almost mandatory on such archetypes to check things like Exploud and Yanmega, even with its numerous downfalls; I suppose other Pokemon could theoretically replace it to some extent, but I've just found Registeel very reliable at its job.
To check SubBU Braviary, which I have found is indeed a massive threat to most stall teams, I've been trying out defensive electric-types, specifically defensive Jolteon. To be brutally honest, it hasn't been quite as impressive as I'd hoped, even with a nice supportive movepool containing Wish and Heal Bell, but for the most part, it can keep that specific variant of Braviary under control (it takes a ton of damage from Return from other variants, though), and also helps deal with a few other Pokemon like LO Jolteon variants through Wish+Protect stall and non-HP Ground Magneton, while still possessing some offensive presence. Taunt SD Drapion is a nuisance for sure, but Rhyperior, or to a lesser extent, Gligar, can usually check it a few times.
Other than Exploud and Drapion, I've also found stall to be fairly effective at dealing with Sticky Web teams; as TRC mentioned in an earlier post, even dedicated wall-breakers, with a few exceptions, can sometimes struggle breaking through specific Pokemon. Regarding Zangoose, sometimes it costs a lesser Pokemon, but with a bit of switching, it could probably simply be worn down.
If Shuckle has been weakened, it probably means you already have webs up, allowing you greater options at checking and revenge killing Exploud anyway. I, however, have been running a stall Shuckle w/o webs. It's my best check to specs wallbreakers (I'm running specially defensive), as well as being a general nuisance. Once I get rid of the choice item, my other walls can take the hits with more reliable recovery. It's not standard on stall teams, but it's been working for me.

Braviary is a bit of trouble for me, since I lack a reliable switch in for brave bird. However, despite my team being stall, I actually deal with SubBU better than choice varieties. This is completely thanks to Spiritomb, whose Infiltrator Will-O-Wisp really ruins its day. Spiritomb has just been great in general, and deals really well with all the common fighting types bar foresighttop thanks to taking only neutral damage from knock off.
 

Mew2

Sex is overrated
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You are missing out on Giga Drain! Giga drain is an important thing to have on specs yanmega. Cause idk about you but i have had a hard time keeping rocks off the field using a spinner. Giga drain allows yanmega to come in scare out a pokemon and giga on the switch getting enough hp to allow it to come back in on rocks again. It is also important to note that it OHKOs Rhyperior, which can help keep rocks off of the field. I have actually OHKOd a number of Rhyperiors people left in expecting the endure WP set. Also it is important to note that Bug Buzz will not kill Mola, while giga drain will. I dont see the need of sleep talk as i dont like to let anything get to sleep if i can help it and sleep foddering a wall breaker like yanmega isnt a good play for me. Also I used to run U-turn on my Yanmega but after numerous games of not using it, cause lets be honest nothing really wants to switch into a tinted lense bug buzz, I took it off and put of Defog to allow me to get rocks, and more importantly, webs off the field. After Shuckle is gone i will probably substitute out defog for Shadow Ball, or who knows I might keep it cause stall teams with lots of hazards seem on the rise.
Giga Drain is another viable option on Yanmega, self healing is nice but outside Rhyperior, Alomomola and Regirock (lol) you won't use it making it a wasted moveslot imo. Sleep talk is a filler move tbh but there are a lot of cases where an annoying Amoonguss will put something to sleep so when you bring Yanmega the mushroom feels safe and BAM 66% chance to hit that thing with a strong STAB move or burn a sleep turn and U-turn gaining a lot of momentum. Also I don't understand why are you using Defog on a choiced Pokémon especially one who is x4 weak to SR there are better offensive defoggers on thr tier such as Shiftry.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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Giga Drain is another viable option on Yanmega, self healing is nice but outside Rhyperior, Alomomola and Regirock (lol) you won't use it making it a wasted moveslot imo. Sleep talk is a filler move tbh but there are a lot of cases where an annoying Amoonguss will put something to sleep so when you bring Yanmega the mushroom feels safe and BAM 66% chance to hit that thing with a strong STAB move or burn a sleep turn and U-turn gaining a lot of momentum. Also I don't understand why are you using Defog on a choiced Pokémon especially one who is x4 weak to SR there are better offensive defoggers on thr tier such as Shiftry.
The only reason I threw defog on was cause I was having a hard time with sticky web teams. I pretty much wasnt using Uturn and sort of as a last resort play to get rocks and web off the field, plus if I already have shuckle gone I can defog rocks and web without worrying about getting them back up. And most importantly they wont be expecting the defog from, which at this point in the battle, will be very obvious as a choice specs Yanmega. If there was something more viable to put on it I would, but seeing as I never used Uturn and I find sleep talk useless (cause I use an Amoonguss of my own). So defog just seemed to work for me, I wouldnt recommend it to anyone else though lol, its sort of one of those things that just works for me. But I would recommend Giga Drain, cause OHKOing some of the afore mentioned things can be pretty important, and it gets you enough health to come back in on rocks multiple times.
 
If Shuckle has been weakened, it probably means you already have webs up, allowing you greater options at checking and revenge killing Exploud anyway. I, however, have been running a stall Shuckle w/o webs. It's my best check to specs wallbreakers (I'm running specially defensive), as well as being a general nuisance. Once I get rid of the choice item, my other walls can take the hits with more reliable recovery. It's not standard on stall teams, but it's been working for me.

Braviary is a bit of trouble for me, since I lack a reliable switch in for brave bird. However, despite my team being stall, I actually deal with SubBU better than choice varieties. This is completely thanks to Spiritomb, whose Infiltrator Will-O-Wisp really ruins its day. Spiritomb has just been great in general, and deals really well with all the common fighting types bar foresighttop thanks to taking only neutral damage from knock off.
Dude, idk if you're just mentioning non-SW Shuckle, but just stop trying to get the point of Shuckle having uses outside of SW across, even if it isn't to push for a complex ban for the sake of shuckle. It has no real, non-overshadowed uses.

As for the suspect, meh. I've been trying to get reqs, but SW makes it harder (and Ice Fang freezes and the like makes it impossible), as I've been trying to ladder without webs. Although I'm almost there with around 2100 COIL (gonna get it later/tomorrow to 2400), it's so stale to ladder (more then usual, I mean). I feel like a broken record, but when people say Shuckle/Doublade/Hitmonlee/Braviary and 2 filler mons, that is literally 90% of teams. And while I can outplay most of them (cause ladder), one fuck up and you're staring down shit like Exploud with no hopes of winning. It's pretty fucked up that merely foregoing Shuckle for nifty things like Spikes Lead Accelgor (pretty much my favorite HO Spiker now) you're already been put at the back foot and hope that the ladder's lack of skill will save you, as a skilled opponent with SW is pretty much impossible to win without SW of your own. Honestly, idgaf how fucking strange it sounds that Shuckle needs to go, this is prolly the most stale meta I've ever had the displeasure of playing. Here's hoping I can get reqs in time...

On a side note, Fletchinder is a flying asshole. Not even joking, Doublade is a sorry excuse for a counter,especially if the Doublade is on a offensive team and likely their only switch in to Fletchinder, as it gets crippled and worn down by Will-O-Wisp (thanks, (BAN ME PLEASE) guard). From there, Fletch can seriously just spam Acrobatics and laugh as Doublade dies fairly quickly without any consequence. It's probably the biggest threat to Offense bar Bulky Offense with stuff like SubBU Braviary (and even then, a well built team around Fletch has a way around those) and above all, a self-righteous prick. Why is it so angry, when all I can do is switch in Doublade, knowing all it will do is stall it for some turns, much to my frustration?

TL;DR: Shuckle has no real niche outside of SW, this is a stale as fuck meta, and if you see Fletchinder while using Offense, just remember: NOW YOU LOSE.
 
the main problem with shuckle is that it overcentralizes the meta to a point in which that 60% of teams are SW offense, and all of them have at least Shuckle, Doublade, Hitmonlee, and Exploud, with one of the other two slots being Braviary, which with its Sub Bulk Up set practically terrorizes slower teams, and does pretty well against most teams lacking Registeel, Rhyperior, or opposing Doublade. The last slot usually is reserved for more wallbreaking power, with shit like Yanmega and Rhyperior all fitting well on it, as well as things that can be used as an answer to common problems to SW, such as SD Taunt Drapion which usually serves as a backup vs Stall and is generally good against teams reliant on Toxic Spikes, or Jolteon, who usually is just there to take care of flying-types, particularly Moltres, who can be somewhat problematic for the rest of the team. but tbh, you can basically just slap more wallbreakers in the last slot and call it a day, i.e yanmega or clawitzer.

there's also the fact that, like the deoxys forms in ou, shuckle is basically guaranteed to get both hazards up unless you're running xatu or cb rhyp, both of which aren't terribly difficult to check with the rest of the team, and is basically /the/ best hazard setter in the tier.
 

termi

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I understand why you feel that way, but Exploud is a wallbreaker after all, it's meant to have zero switches sure you can argue that clicking a single move lacks skill and is cheap (which isn't true at all since some things in the tier can tank Specs Boomburst such as AV Escavalier, Registeel and your Rhyperior) but a lot of other wallbreakers do the same in the tier, here is an example of one of the fastes and strongest wallbreakers in the tier and my personal favorite:


Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- U-turn
- Sleep talk / Shadow Ball

Screw Exploud this is THE wallbreaker of the tier with Choice Specs and Tinted Lens Yanmega can destroy anything that doesn't x4 resist Bug Buzz and unlike Exploud it can't be revenge killed easily thanks to a solid base speed stat and with hazards suppor (especially SR and Sw) Yanmega will perform a lot better. U-turn is there for momentum and the last moveslot depends on what your team needs: if a sleep absorber is needed Sleep talk is the better option and if you need to hit Doublade use Shadow Ball.
Some fun calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rhyperior: 231-273 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not even a specially defensive Rhyperior can switch into this thing.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 174-204 (42.8 - 50.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Aromatisse needs to be at full health to wall Yanmega risking a posible Special Defense drop or crit.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV Slowking can't switch even with his massive Special Defense boosted by Assault Vest.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Druddigon: 172-204 (48 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Finally it 2HKOes OP Druddigon after rocks OML!
Difference between Exploud and other wallbreakers is that Exploud has no obviously exploitable flaws for stall teams. It is, indeed, impossible for most stall teams to switch anything but Registeel into Specs Yanmega, but rocks cripple it massively and allow you to basically pick it off with something. Hitmonlee hits extremely hard, but a bulky ghost like Doublade or Spiritomb will force it into having to predict very carefully or it just cripples itself (plus, if you run Weezing Hitmonlee is ez). Exploud does not have an obvious hazard weakness, it is not as frail as Hitmonlee and it doesn't have to fear that its Boomburst won't do massive damage to whatever switches in, because good answers to it are scarce for stall teams and Scrappy allows it to just hit Ghosts.

On that note, I have been using this on my stall team and it is working very well, despite being more of an offensively inclined mon:



Mr. White (Skuntank) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Atk / 232 SDef / 24 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Taunt
- Defog
- Sucker Punch
- Crunch

Now because I use Rhyperior over Registeel, my stall team simply lacks solid answers to things like Specs Yanmega. This thing right here is my saving grace. Thanks to Sucker Punch, it can KO a couple of troublesome mons, sometimes I will have to sac something in order to get that done, but alas. The idea is that once the opposing wallbreaker is weakened due to hazards etc, Skuntank can pick it off, turning it into a very useful emergency killer. Defog is cool for hazard stacking teams, after removing their hazard setter you can just Defog and then start stacking your own. The main reason why I love this thing though, is because it also very conveniently forces opposing stall in a tough spot. Taunt makes half of all defensive mons completely unable to do anything to Skuntank, after which you can hit something on the switch with Crunch, wearing it down more and more. In addition to that, it easily beats dangerous things like CM Reuniclus/Cresselia and Trick Room teams also very much dislike its presence, as no TR setter beside Aromatisse can take Dark-type moves very well. It's p. clutch.
 
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Obligatory Shuckle post.

I have used Sticky Web quite a bit while laddering for reqs this round (and the last round too) and i can say that it is definitely a strong strategy. The Speed boost allows wallbreakers to essentially become sweepers and Pokemon like Exploud and Clawitzer (who already have limited switch ins in defensive teams) can simply click the strongest nove and watch staff die. Faster Pokemon like Hitmonlee and Braviary suddenly get the chance to outspeed some of their offensive checks and can spam ridicolously powerful moves. This combined with the fact that our tier has two awesome offensive spinblockers makes Sticky Web incredibly effective and easy to use. To balance this out most Sticky web setters are unusable Bug types with paltry stats bit SHUCKLE is different. While it lacks any offensive presente it has incredibile bulk that lets it run Mental Herb and a perfect movepool. Apart from the guaranteed webs and almost guaranteed stealth rock (unless you have xatu or random magic coat users) the combination of Encore and Infestation lets it effectively stop Defog and Rapid Spin while eventually coming out on top thanks to its speed. Shuckle is so incredibly consistent and effective at what it does that forces other non webs offensive teams to run multiple priority users and levitating Pokémon essentially limiting teambuilding and hindering variety and that is why i'll vote ban.

Also please stop with those complex bans bullshit as Shuckle is garbage without webs and other setters are garbage too.

I apologize if i made any grammar error but im writing this on train and blame my phone essentially
Edit: i realized this is my 500th post shoutouts to #ru guys and to the girl in my avy
 
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Looks like I'll be (to my surprise) going against the grain here when I say that I don't think Shuckle is broken.

People seem to think it's basically impossible to prevent Shuckle getting both Web and Rocks down, which simply isn't true for anything but Stall teams, who generally don't care about Web being up anyway. There's essentially 2 ways to stop both layers going down for Offense, Xatu or simply 2HKO'ing it, neither of which are difficult. Hitmonlee and Kabutops are both Spinners that can 2HKO Shuckle, and can punish Spinblockers coming in with powerful Knock Offs, then theres Rhyperior, Sharpedo, Magneton, Amoonguss (Spore), Clawitzer, Cincinno, Durant, Archeops are all completely viable mons on offense which can prevent 2 layers, then depending on the spread Doublade, Escavalier too. There's also things like Knock Off + Taunt Mega Banette, or Switcheroo Delphox/Trick Rotom-C/Trick Zoroark.

As for Shuckle being bulky enough to come in later in the game, this for the most part isn't true since you should of landed a big hit on it first turn as it set down Web, as well as the fact that its so slow that anything it comes in on its going to have to take 2 hits from, and finally it's weak to Rocks. Now obviously people don't have to lead with Shuckle, but since they're team is so reliant on Web being up to outpace things they can rarely afford not to.

Now if you're running Offense and Shuckle has managed to get Web down and you can't find opportunities to remove it, there's still plenty of pokemon which can still trhive. Scarf Rotom-C and Scarf Moltres especially but also non Scarf variants are basically guaranted to outspeed everything, even Scarf grounded pokemon like Delphox can outpace standard web mons with Web up. Outside of Scarfers you still have Yanmega, Fletchinder, Mismagius, Vivillon and Sigilyph which can outpace and punish mons so reliant on Web. There's also tons of priority available with Zoro/Lee/Gurdurr/MegaSnow/Kabu/Doublade/Mega Banette/Zangoose.

All this combined with Shuckles 0 offensive presence leads me to believeing Shuckle isn't broken. Web itself or Exploud/Yanmega have far more justification for a ban than Shuckle, though I don't think any of them are ban worthy

Oh and I do agree with Shuckle teams being a bit stale, but that is the fault of the playerbase choosing to use them, not the fault of Shuckle.

Edit: If Shuckle is banned then Leavanny should be the replacement, since if knocked down to Swarm it's X Scissor can be quite powerful, it's the fastest Sticky Web user available, and finally it has access to Magic Coat to bounce back Taunt and SR.
 
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