Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Ajwf]

Even if Mola did have Heal Bell/Aromatheropy it has a poor match-up against Aegislash, takes a big chunk of damage from a Shadow Ball and can only hurt it with Mirror Coat off a predicted Shadow Ball. Loses to SD and SubToxic.

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 238-281 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

First off, why is SD even brought up anymore? It, plain and simple, is not a good set. Alomomla also has 165/80 bulk physically so it's going to take a long time to get by (esp since mola will run scald/knock off options in conjunction with wish/Mirror). It isn't MEANT to beat Aegi, but it's unique in the fact that aegi can't really take a switch for granted without dying... I guess foul play umbreon is similar but I've never been a fan as umbreon as a cleric anyways... Just the utility outside of being a cleric is a bit low.

 

[trc]

As I've said before, Mirror Coat Alomomola is nothing more than a gimmick which shouldn't even be used anymore since now people think it's standard of Alomomola. Its only use previously was surprise factor, which is all gone now. What sort of teams do you run Alomomola on? Balance and Stall. What does Mirror Coat do? "Surprise" a special attacker. What should Balance and Stall teams always have? An answer to any specific special attacker. Why waste a moveslot on something that would appreciate something else more, when you should have the teamslot for the likes of various special threats that Mirror Coat supposedly handles.

 

[Ajwf]

The point is not so much to beat as it is to make special attackers not attack your switchins. It's one way to gain a psychological advantage on wish passing. It isn't a "Hey, Mola beats X/Y/Z" but "I can make my opponent think twice before they go after my low HP ______". Sort of like Chansey doesn't have S-Toss for specific threats, Mirror Coat is a very broad move.

 

[Boltaway]

The problem still is that Mirror Mola was created solely to surprise Zard-Y, which Branflakes team struggled with otherwise. To its advantage is its obscurity which allows it to pull of a Mirror Coat with relative ease, but again, there has to be a serious game plan involved for it to work. I worry that a lot of players, like TRC said, will assume this gimmick is a standard set.

Stall is about consistency. Standard Alomomola sets and even ones with Magic Coat perform consistently well. Alomomola would much rather run Wish, Protect, Scald, Toxic, Magic Coat, or even Knock Off because those allow it to perform its role of wishpasser and physical/mixed wall consistently. Branflake's team was semi-stall iirc, but I honestly find Alomomola working much better on full stall where its magnet for being set-up bait doesn't matter as much / it doesn't really lose you momentum. If your opponent has a special attacker, why would you even risk the damage instead of just switching out to the appropriate counter, which your team most likely has? That's consistency.

Regenerator might ease prediction, but trust me, it isn't an excuse for taking damage without thinking about the end-game reprecussions. Yes, it's a great ability but it is not an excuse for taking damage when something else could be taking less from it.

Being able to Mirror Coat things isn't a niche. It's a gimmick. Mola's other sets do deserve C+ though.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Mola should be ranked already. It's viable. I've seen it on the high ladder and it works. It is an annoying wish passer that keeps itself alive, isn't exactly easy to take down and regenerates itself. Sure it only works on balance and heavy stall and it's pretty niche, but I haven't seen anyone saying Alomomola isn't viable, and yet it still hasn't been ranked. I'd personally rank it C+, but I think it should be at least on C-.

Clefable is pretty fine where it is. It's incredibly useful and versatile, but its limited stats keep it from working in many situations, such as when breaking some walls or dealing with some fast attackers. It's more of a glue pokemon than a metagame defining monster.

Tornadus-T should be raised. I agree with everything that has been said. Its speed tier is huge, its coverage is great, its ability allows it to give zero fucks about rocks. I wouldn't even mind seeing it on A-, but B+ is good too.

Mega Aggron I don't think is that good. It's pretty exploitable with its low special bulk, and can't do much in return. It can only be used with heavy support from special walls, and it's easily forced out by them. I'd keep it C+.

 

[Slayerblade]

Thoughts on Keldeo for S Rank? Life Orb and Specs tears teams apart. It's forms a great core with Tyranitar who checks nearly all of it's counters. It's just a really solid pokemon.

 

[vyomov]

Thoughts on Keldeo for S Rank? Life Orb and Specs tears teams apart. It's forms a great core with Tyranitar who checks nearly all of it's counters. It's just a really solid pokemon.

I'd disagree - while Keldeo certainly is an excellent threat, it is by no means metagame-defining, and neither does it deserve S-Rank in the current meta. Firstly, the addition of the Fairy-type has really hit Keldeo, as it can no longer tear apart teams that easily - and the nerf to rain didn't help either.
To look at the S-Rank, where giants such as Aegislash and Char-X reside, I feel, is too ambitious in the current meta for Keldeo - it's base 108 speed is no longer as good as it used to be, and it's defenses are not that great. That's not to say Keldeo isn't a good mon - as you rightly pointed out, Specs and LO are very dangerous given the right support, and Secret Sword allows it to hit on both sides of the spectrum - however, until the meta changes to favor it more, I'd like to keep Keldeo in it's current rank.

 

[Jayd]

I posted this a few pages ago but it was kind of buried in the Mega Mawile discussion. Since alexwolf is asking for discussion on this Pokemon I think it's fair to post it again for people to consider.

I keep on forgetting to save good matches I have with this set but here's one where it saved my ass twice after some big mistakes in the beginning (I miscalced that ESpeed)

In considering Mega Aggron's move to B-, which I support, I'd like people to consider some set diversity that's often ignored. I usually run an offensive set that goes something like this:

Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam/Iron Head
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish

This set has a few advantages to make it viable:

• Your setup is hard to predict since most people expect the tank/support set.
• It takes advantage of unevolved Aggron's Ability and STAB with Head Smash. A key to using this set is NOT mega evolving until you have to, allowing regular Aggron to spam Head Smash until your opponent sends out an answer. This can also confuse your opponent into thinking you are not holding Aggronite especially if you have another Pokemon capable of mega evolving on your team.
  
• Mega Aggron's immense natural bulk allows it to tank hits after setting up, allowing it to 2 or even 3HKO threats that it now outspeeds and are incapable of taking it out quickly. This is its major niche over more typical set up sweepers. While Aggron has less power, it has more natural staying power than most. By way of demonstration: 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 204-243 (72.5 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Looking at the top of the viability list it should be clear that a fast Aggron can power through a huge chunk of its threats and will find ample opportunity to set up a polish. This means that in regular conditions you can use Aggron to force out a Pokemon that your opponent has to sacrifice to bring it down, blasting a hole in their team, or do some late game sweeping when the Pokemon that could stop it in combination are already removed and your opponent has nothing that can hit hard enough or take a hit.

Of course there are also the disadvantages:

• Weaker than typical set up sweepers.
• The advantage of Head Smash mentioned above is a double-edged sword since after mega evolving it compromises Aggron's main niche: survivability.
• The ubiquitous "it takes up my mega slot" problem, which means that you can't double it with the best set up sweepers in the tier.

The reason I'm drawing attention to this set isn't because I think this set alone is why Aggron should move up, but because this set in conjunction with its other viable sets raises its viability by adding the element of versatility and unpredictability while spotlighting Aggron's potential offensive presence. This easily merit's Aggron a place among mons like Absol, Aerodactyl, and Rhyperior who often can only do a single role comparatively well.

 

[Mowtom]

I posted this a few pages ago but it was kind of buried in the Mega Mawile discussion. Since alexwolf is asking for discussion on this Pokemon I think it's fair to post it again for people to consider.

I keep on forgetting to save good matches I have with this set but here's one where it saved my ass twice after some big mistakes in the beginning (I miscalced that ESpeed)

The fact that you fought a Blissey who used Toxic on your Aggron doesn't help prove your point...

 

[Jayd]

The fact that you fought a Blissey who used Toxic on your Aggron doesn't help prove your point...

I'm not sure what it's got to do with my point. The point is you should probably run Seismic Toss on your Blissey so that steels don't make it useless. Doesn't impact on the viability of the Aggron set so far as I can see.

 

[Milkshook]

I'm not sure what it's got to do with my point. The point is you should probably run Seismic Toss on your Blissey so that steels don't make it useless. Doesn't impact on the viability of the Aggron set so far as I can see.

He means that if your opponent used toxic on Aggron then that means he isn't very skilled. Such replays aren't good evidence because you can sweep with an Agility Spinarak if your opponent is skilled enough.

 

[Jayd]

The mega is nice

He means that if your opponent used toxic on Aggron then that means he isn't very skilled. Such replays aren't good evidence because you can sweep with an Agility Spinarak if your opponent is skilled enough.

He obviously did not have anything on his set to hit Aggron with and obviously couldn't hard switch out. There was nothing else he could do.

 

[Milkshook]

He obviously did not have anything on his set to hit Aggron with and obviously couldn't hard switch out. There was nothing else he could do.

I know, that's why I'm commenting on his skill.

 

[HBK]

I'm not sure what it's got to do with my point. The point is you should probably run Seismic Toss on your Blissey so that steels don't make it useless. Doesn't impact on the viability of the Aggron set so far as I can see.

The point is that if he couldn't do anything but Toxic something like a non A/S rank pokemon like Aggron, then he's probably a bad teambuilder and player. I don't think that it's good enough; Head Smash can be conveniently spammed until it evolves but it's still not very fast so more often than not it'll be moving last and since it's not carrying an Eviolite, it's likely to take more damage from Super Effective moves. After it evolves, Head Smash becomes a poor choice and it's walled/stopped/set up on by Rotom-W, Skarmory, Landorus (Both Formes), Gyarados, Conkeldurr, Terrakion, Garchomp, etc.

 

[Slayerblade]

I'd disagree - while Keldeo certainly is an excellent threat, it is by no means metagame-defining, and neither does it deserve S-Rank in the current meta. Firstly, the addition of the Fairy-type has really hit Keldeo, as it can no longer tear apart teams that easily - and the nerf to rain didn't help either.
To look at the S-Rank, where giants such as Aegislash and Char-X reside, I feel, is too ambitious in the current meta for Keldeo - it's base 108 speed is no longer as good as it used to be, and it's defenses are not that great. That's not to say Keldeo isn't a good mon - as you rightly pointed out, Specs and LO are very dangerous given the right support, and Secret Sword allows it to hit on both sides of the spectrum - however, until the meta changes to favor it more, I'd like to keep Keldeo in it's current rank.

Fairies aren't really a problem for it. Every fairy besides Azumarril is 2HKOd by Hydro Pump. 91/90/90 Defenses are really solid for a sweeper. Only STAB SE moves will be OHKOing it. It's not as good as Aegislash or Char-X but I think it's as good a Landurous, and maby Thundurus

 

[Jayd]

The point is that if he couldn't do anything but Toxic something like a non A/S rank pokemon like Aggron, then he's probably a bad teambuilder and player. I don't think that it's good enough; Head Smash can be conveniently spammed until it evolves but it's still not very fast so more often than not it'll be moving last and since it's not carrying an Eviolite, it's likely to take more damage from Super Effective moves. After it evolves, Head Smash becomes a poor choice and it's walled/stopped/set up on by Rotom-W, Skarmory, Landorus (Both Formes), Gyarados, Conkeldurr, Terrakion, Garchomp, etc.

After a Rock Polish both Aggrons hit 398 speed with an Adamant nature. In that game I posted you saw that Landorus-I and Iron Fist Conkeldurr were massacred (with some prior damage). Garchomp takes 55.3 - 65.3% from Heavy Slam and Jolly Garchomp EQ is a 3HKO. Terrakion is OHKOd by Iron Head and takes 85.4 - 100.9% from Earthquake. Gyarados loses to Head Smash even if you take some recoil. Rotom and Skarmory are problems but normal Aggron's Head Smash can wallbreak them for another sweeper on your team, or muscle past them if they are already weak.

So yeah. Requires some support, but going off of that list I think you're actually supporting my point.

P.S. This Toxic thing is a ridiculous red herring. "He should have Seismic Toss on his Blissey therefore he is bad and this game doesn't mean anything" is what it comes down to and that is an incredibly bad argument. Let's focus on the viability of Aggron.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Fairies aren't really a problem for it. Every fairy besides Azumarril is 2HKOd by Hydro Pump. 91/90/90 Defenses are really solid for a sweeper. Only STAB SE moves will be OHKOing it. It's not as good as Aegislash or Char-X but I think it's as good a Landurous, and maby Thundurus

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 175-207 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
not guaranteed
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nope.

Also add on its reliance on prediction.
Also its walled by amoongus, megasaur, mantine. Gyarados also semi walls it.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 175-207 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
not guaranteed
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nope.

Also add on its reliance on prediction.
Also its walled by amoongus, megasaur, mantine. Gyarados also semi walls it.

Not to say I don't agree that Keldeo is not S rank, but max special defense are not common sets for those pokemon. Sylveon is normally physically defensive, and Togekiss is normally offensive or bulky attacker.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Alright. I honestly dont see how Salamence is anywhere above D. It's hopelessly outclassed at all of its roles, fulfilling absolutely no niche. DD is outclassed by like 4 different mons, scarf is outclassed by chomp, mixmence is just plain garbage and wish is lol. i honestly dont see how its more than D rank.

 

[Valmanway]

Alright. I honestly dont see how Salamence is anywhere above D. It's hopelessly outclassed at all of its roles, fulfilling absolutely no niche. DD is outclassed by like 4 different mons, scarf is outclassed by chomp, mixmence is just plain garbage and wish is lol. i honestly dont see how its more than D rank.

Salamence still has Moxie over Garchomp in terms of Scarf sets. Sure, Fairies crap all over Salamence, but if Fairies are absent, then Salamence can sweep surprisingly well. He's not amazing by any means, even with Fairies absent on a team, but he's still viable, even if by just a little bit.

 

[HBK]

After a Rock Polish both Aggrons hit 398 speed with an Adamant nature. In that game I posted you saw that Landorus-I and Iron Fist Conkeldurr were massacred (with some prior damage). Garchomp takes 55.3 - 65.3% from Heavy Slam and Jolly Garchomp EQ is a 3HKO. Terrakion is OHKOd by Iron Head and takes 85.4 - 100.9% from Earthquake. Gyarados loses to Head Smash even if you take some recoil. Rotom and Skarmory are problems but normal Aggron's Head Smash can wallbreak them for another sweeper on your team, or muscle past them if they are already weak.

So yeah. Requires some support, but going off of that list I think you're actually supporting my point.

P.S. This Toxic thing is a ridiculous red herring. "He should have Seismic Toss on his Blissey therefore he is bad and this game doesn't mean anything" is what it comes down to and that is an incredibly bad argument. Let's focus on the viability of Aggron.

Landorus-T can come in for an Intimidate, take minimal damage and threaten with STAB Earthquake. No one uses non-mega Gyarados, so it can weaken Aggron with Intimidate, Mega evolve and hit it with a Waterfall/Earthquake. Yes you can take Skarmory and Rotom-W down if they're weak but that argument's not strong enough and more often than not, it's going to be burnt or phazed. If it hasn't Rock Polish'ed yet, Terrakion will do a lot of damage before it dies and Scarf Terrakion (although it's uncommon) can outspeed it at+2 and KO it with any prior damage that it might've sustained whilst setting up. Keldeo hits really hard with Secret Sword/Hydro Pump. It also fails to break through walls like Hippowdon, Slowbro and physically defensive Venusaur.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Rock Polish is bad. It's just not strong enough when it gives up coverage moves.

I could see Mega Aggron in B-, but if not it's definitely high C+ imo. The main issue with it is lack of recovery and low SDef, and its quad weakness to EQ and Fighting before MEvolving, but with proper support (Wish and/or Healing Wish, special wall to fall back on which is not unreasonable if it's being used on a bulkier team) it is a massive pain to deal with. I've used it on a team with that support and it's really amazing how clutch it is. After MEvolving it can switch in to some much stuff and just not give a shit.

• It takes physical hits like nothing else. I don't mean "it can live an un-STABed EQ," I mean "it has a good chance to live a STAB SE +1 Tough Claws Adamant Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz, and use Thunder Wave in response."
• 140 base attack+tons of coverage options
• It checks or counters a huge portion of physical attackers (basically all of them, though it can't switch in to extremely powerful stuff with STAB SE moves, namely CB Terrakion, Mega Medicham, LO/CB Diggersby, LO Excadrill, etc. and needs to MEvolves ASAP.) LO Bisharp, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados, Mega Tyranitar, non-BD Azumarill, Mega Scizor, Dragonite, Lando-T, Breloom, Mamoswine, LO Scolipede, Kabutops, and tons of others stuff it can switch in to with relative safety. Excadrill, Garchomp, Mega Maw, Talonflame, Lando-T, Diggersby, and even Mega Medicham it can all check if they're not boosted. However, beating these things depends on having the right coverage moves.
• Good support options in Sneaky Boulders and Thunder Wave.

It's very comparable to Rhyperior: a ridiculously bulky tank that hits hard. However, Mega Aggron takes up a mega slot, but has T-Wave, more bulk, no quad weaknesses, and can take on a larger number of things.

 

[Milkshook]

Jayd What does your Aggron set have over Rock Polish/Double Dance Landorus-T?

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance / Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

- Better special bulk but slightly worse physical bulk

Hide

-1 0 Atk Mew Shadow Claw vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 37-44 (10.5 - 12.5%)
0 SpA Mew Shadow Ball vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 69-82 (19.6 - 23.3%)
0 Atk Mew Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 24-29 (8.5 - 10.2%)
0 SpA Mew Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Mega Aggron: 69-82 (24.4 - 29%)

- Passive recovery with leftovers
- Access to Swords Dance
- Slightly higher attack
- Faster
- Better defensive typing
- Outspeeds common scarfers
- Outspeeds scarchomp

Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Heavy Slam / Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish

- Filter
- Mind Games with mega evolution
- Heavy Slam can sometimes be powerful
- Handles priority better
- Outspeeds everything except Mega Manectric and anything faster
Let me know if I've missed something.

It's not completely outclassed but it just doesn't stand out enough IMO to move up to B- Mega Aggron to stay in C+.

 

[Jukain]

/note: I do have experience with Mega Aggron/

Mega Aggron shouldn't be higher than C+. It sets up SR, it has some pretty good coverage...but it's easily worn down due to a complete lack of recovery (not even Leftovers), easy to take advantage of specially, and gives free switch-ins to Pokemon like Keldeo. It's not really comparable to Rhyperior which has recovery and much better STABs/high power to work with, and is a solid Mega Char X answer. It as a SR setter only can deal with one common Defogger as it comes in (Latios) and even then is threatened by it and doesn't do that much. Too many limitations o go up into B- imo.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Salamence still has Moxie over Garchomp in terms of Scarf sets. Sure, Fairies crap all over Salamence, but if Fairies are absent, then Salamence can sweep surprisingly well. He's not amazing by any means, even with Fairies absent on a team, but he's still viable, even if by just a little bit.

Are there any specific situations I would use Mence over Chomp?