Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf

[dwarfstar]

You do realize running Haze on a Mon with fucking Unaware is one of the stupidest things ever, right?
Also, it does need that second move to beat Zard X, since Scald can't burn it and only hits neutrally.

It bears mentioning that Toxic will wear down Charizard; the latter will be killed or forced out before Quagsire is most of the time unless it lands a crit or is carrying Outrage, so Earthquake isn't strictly necessary. That being said, Haze is still largely redundant on something with Unaware, so that point is valid.

Based on my experience and what I've read, it seems pretty clear that the problem is with the combination of Scolipede and Espeon on the same Baton Pass team, as both of them play a role in which the "next-best thing" is largely inadequate. Ninjask isn't nearly as effective as Scolipede because it's extremely frail and can't pass Iron Defense, and Absol can't do a very good job replacing Espeon because it doesn't pack Magic Bounce on the first switch-in, meaning you can either phaze it or bring in something that smashes it before it can get too many boosts. (It also doesn't get Stored Power, so it's not as good an endgame sweeper as Espeon despite its greater raw power, and it's actually slightly more frail than Espeon is.) Removing one or both of the current must-have team members nerfs Baton Pass so hard that even a full team of six Baton Passers is no monstrosity.

Given this premise, I believe we have two logical options:
1. Complex ban of Scolipede and Espeon on the same team. This approach minimizes collateral damage while still nerfing the hell out of Baton Pass chains.
2. If we want a simple ban, elevate Scolipede to Ubers. It's the more dangerous of the two on its own, so it makes more sense to ban that than Espeon. Also, now we'll have a Bug with the honor of being tiered with the titans. Banning Baton Pass gets rid of dry-passing and quick-passing entirely, which I maintain is needless restriction on the options available to Pokemon like Celebi.

 

[jpw234]

I would support restricting BP to one user per team. It gets rid of the broken/uncompetitive/stale aspect of BP (the uninteractive chaining) without removing any pokemon or destroying quickpassing. I am heavily skeptical that Scolipede on its own would be broken, but if it is it should be banned on its own merits without implicating Baton Pass. All the proposed bans targeting Scolipede/Espeon will crush the viability of BP chaining anyway, and I think that a limit of 1 per team is a more precise ban that does not create uncomfortable precedents regarding banning based on the best set.

 

[D-Ssain]

Wallbreakers can fuck up Offense easy, which is a major difference difference. BP counters do shit to other playstyles.

Also, Espeon not being able to receive a Baton Pass is a unnecessary complex ban when we could just ban something (take your pick).

1.) Ban Scolipede, since it sets up on all but like 3 things in OU and can make anything unrevengeable.

2.) Ban Espeon, since it's the only reason why normal counters can't work because lol Magic Bounce.

3.) Ban both.

4.) Ban the move, since it's clearly broken on multiple Pokemon. Fuck collateral.

Number 2 prob because any good team should have at least one Phazer so Scolipede wouldn't be as op as when having Espeon to protect it but even banning Espeon seems unnecessary when the only broken element is the pass that she receives. So it should be that Magic Bounce users cannot receive a Baton Pass. I don't see this ban any more complex than the Sleep Clause or 3 BPers per team.

 

[Karxrida]

Number 2 prob because any good team should have at least one Phazer so Scolipede wouldn't be as op as when having Espeon to protect it but even banning Espeon seems unnecessary when the only broken element is the pass that she receives. So it should be that Magic Bounce users cannot receive a Baton Pass. I don't see this ban any more complex than the Sleep Clause or 3 BPers per team.

It's unnecessary because Espeon is literally the only Magic Bouncer in OU (Absol needs to MEvo beforehand and has no recover while Xatu is just shit). While it doesn't technically screw with game mechanics, it is arbitrary.

Also sleep clause exists because GF made it. Sleep would probably be banned (I'm guessing) if they never included it in Stadium.

 

[ssjjynx]

An easier way would be to just ban the combination of Baton Pass and Speed Boost on the same team. Without Scolipede, abusing bp would become much more difficult, and without the boosts to speed that Scolipede provides these teams become prone to being taken advantage of by some of the older methods of abusing strategies (Paraflinch, Toxic Sub-protect Gliscor etc.). The current bp strategy relies heavily on Scolipede, and without it bp would be just like last gen, if not weaker.

 

[haunter]

The Council is actually considering restricting the use of Baton Pass to just one Pokemon on each team. This way both dry passing and Smash Pass are saved, while full Baton Pass chains are completely dismantled.

Alternatively, we can ban dEnIsSsS.

 

[Loudo]

Since complex bans have been/are being considered, I just want to throw my suggestion:

Baton Pass Clause: A Pokémon cannot use the move Baton Pass if it entered the battlefield through the use of Baton Pass.

Basically this is a clause à la Sleep Clause: you ban nothing, you just say "You can't use this move if conditions XY are met."

With this clause, Baton Pass chains are no longer possible, but there are no restrictions at all in teambuilding. You can still have more than one Pokémon with SS + BP, in case the first attempt fails to win you the game. You can still have Sub + BP Gliscor and BP Celebi in the same team. Etc. etc.

 

[Epsilonsama]

Can we just ban Scolipede? Scolipede seem to be the pillar of current BP teams. Ban Scolipede and BP Teams wont be as troublesome.

 

[WebBowser]

Ok, I've been out for the weekend, so I want to list down my thoughts on specific points that have been made over the weekend.

Haunter I sincerely hope that you are joking with the idea of banning denis. Just because he found a broken team and people netteamed the living **** out of it doesn't make him a bad guy. Banning him would be like banning the folks who built teams around mega kanga in the beginning of the gen. He's actually a pretty polite guy from what I've seen, so I can't see any reasonable arguments being made for him being verbally abusive or otherwise unsportsmenlike. On an unrelated note, I think that a scolipede suspect may be in order before we consider further nerfs to the BP chain, judging from the consensus starting to crop up in recent posts.

Mega Scizor Yeah, trolls exist, and people will feed them, but overall this thread has been the best of the 3 BP related threads I have been involved in (and trust me, I've been involved in all of them). I can assure you that I am no troll, but I am dead set against a blanket ban of BP. I understand that you were angry when you made that post, trust me I've been frustrated more then a few times over the course of this debacle as well. I do want you to watch that replay you posted in that post though. That sweep honestly could've happened with a scoli quick pass just fine, especially if that clefable happened to be packing moonlight (I don't think that particular one was though). As you stated "one free turn was all it needed", and one of the fairly consistent attributes shared by all ubers is their ability to create win cons in one turn or less.

I would support restricting BP to one user per team. It gets rid of the broken/uncompetitive/stale aspect of BP (the uninteractive chaining) without removing any pokemon or destroying quickpassing. I am heavily skeptical that Scolipede on its own would be broken, but if it is it should be banned on its own merits without implicating Baton Pass. All the proposed bans targeting Scolipede/Espeon will crush the viability of BP chaining anyway, and I think that a limit of 1 per team is a more precise ban that does not create uncomfortable precedents regarding banning based on the best set.

With all due respect, I believe you are wrong. If a broken team is built around a possibly broken mon, then determining whether or not that mon is broken is paramount to any discussion concerning the team itself. Here is my argument from the previous thread.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ss-read-post-590.3507765/page-21#post-5510107

Gosh I love being able to reuse my arguments like this, yay post history!

The TL;DR of that post is basically that even if BP is inherently broken, we cannot determine this if there is a broken mon in the team in question, especially if the team is built around supporting or abusing the support of said mon.

*edit*

Mostly for arca, but here's a replay of a decently skilled game with me using BP in a not-broken manner.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-120632451

Also, CB ninjask is amazing, FACT!

 

[haunter]

WebBowser, probably you never heard about something called 'sarcasm'. You don't need to be a genius to figure out that I was only kidding about banning Denisss...

 

[shack]

Since when does Unaware Quagsire counter BP??? You obviously don't understand how Stored Power mechanics work. Stored Power gets stronger as you get more stat boosts, Unaware may ignore the actual stat boosts but it doesn't stop Stored Power from getting absurdly strong. So tell me exactly how Quagsire is going to tank a 180 Base Power Stored Power with that measly 65 Special Defense.

Lol, chill man, no need to rage. It was an example... Regardless, the point still is, that maybe the person is just better than you even if you have a "counter".

And have you seen any of the videos posted in this thread? Some of them involve an Unaware Quagsire using Haze to remove the boosts. Also with Unaware it can take a hit or 2 thanks to not feeling the effects of the calm mind boosts. You need 4 boosts in order for Stored Power to reach 100 BP. That isn't much more damage than Psychic. So Quagsire can usually switch in sometime before then to try to remove the boosts.

I never said this was valid counter, this is just what I have seen people using the most from the vids I watched in this thread. So check yo self fool!

 

[LonelyArcanine]

shack, My only question is: How come Quagsire hasn't been used to counter Baton Pass teams before? Did he get buffed this Gen?

 

[WebBowser]

shack, My only question is: How come Quagsire hasn't been used to counter Baton Pass teams before? Did he get buffed this Gen?

I can answer that one: He wasn't necessary and previous gens were not particularly friendly to him. In gen 5, you had powerful special attacks out the wazoo that could stop BP well before it could do anything. Quaggy was not particularly good at checking these special attacks, and so was largely ignored. I don't know much about gens 4 or 3, but I presume that he was not particularly good there either. In gen 5, special attacks got nerfed and physical setup sweepers got some pretty nice additions, such as megazard and mega pinsir. These new additions gave unaware quaggy a niche, and that is why he is used to "counter" BP because he was already doing stuff and he can, albeit begrudgingly, spare the moveslot.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Ok, I've been out for the weekend, so I want to list down my thoughts on specific points that have been made over the weekend.

Haunter I sincerely hope that you are joking with the idea of banning denis. Just because he found a broken team and people netteamed the living **** out of it doesn't make him a bad guy. Banning him would be like banning the folks who built teams around mega kanga in the beginning of the gen. He's actually a pretty polite guy from what I've seen, so I can't see any reasonable arguments being made for him being verbally abusive or otherwise unsportsmenlike. On an unrelated note, I think that a scolipede suspect may be in order before we consider further nerfs to the BP chain, judging from the consensus starting to crop up in recent posts.

Mega Scizor Yeah, trolls exist, and people will feed them, but overall this thread has been the best of the 3 BP related threads I have been involved in (and trust me, I've been involved in all of them). I can assure you that I am no troll, but I am dead set against a blanket ban of BP. I understand that you were angry when you made that post, trust me I've been frustrated more then a few times over the course of this debacle as well. I do want you to watch that replay you posted in that post though. That sweep honestly could've happened with a scoli quick pass just fine, especially if that clefable happened to be packing moonlight (I don't think that particular one was though). As you stated "one free turn was all it needed", and one of the fairly consistent attributes shared by all ubers is their ability to create win cons in one turn or less.



With all due respect, I believe you are wrong. If a broken team is built around a possibly broken mon, then determining whether or not that mon is broken is paramount to any discussion concerning the team itself. Here is my argument from the previous thread.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ss-read-post-590.3507765/page-21#post-5510107

Gosh I love being able to reuse my arguments like this, yay post history!

The TL;DR of that post is basically that even if BP is inherently broken, we cannot determine this if there is a broken mon in the team in question, especially if the team is built around supporting or abusing the support of said mon.

*edit*

Mostly for arca, but here's a replay of a decently skilled game with me using BP in a not-broken manner.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-120632451

Also, CB ninjask is amazing, FACT!

Yeah Web I know you arent a troll, and that replay is from UU so sorry, but I dont even need to see it. I know you are, and have been very vocal about this but I dont think I know what your stance is, its mainly just because I am lazy and you post alot every time XD. But could you very simply put what you think should be done about baton pass. Because I am firmly against a scolipede ban, because that is totally unfair to him when he is not the problem, its his ability to baton pass that is the problem.

P.S. Obviously Haunter was kidding lol.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Quaggy loses to BP because Unaware only deals with the stat boosts, not move boosts. The BP team can boost Stored Power to a 120+ base power move and 2HKO Quagsire even if the booster's special attack is treated at +0 with Unaware.

 

[shack]

Quaggy loses to BP because Unaware only deals with the stat boosts, not move boosts. The BP team can boost Stored Power to a 120+ base power move and 2HKO Quagsire even if the booster's special attack is treated at +0 with Unaware.

Ugh, that wasn't the point of my post. Why is everyone focusing on Quagsire lol? It was an example based off of some of the matches posted earlier.

And yes you are correct, but what do you think Quag is doing in those 3 turns? Hazing.

Back on topic guys. The point was that even if you have a "counter" the other person still might be better than you or used to playing against that counter.

 

[pws72000]

Ugh, that wasn't the point of my post. Why is everyone focusing on Quagsire lol? It was an example based off of some of the matches posted earlier.

And yes you are correct, but what do you think Quag is doing in those 3 turns? Hazing.

Back on topic guys. The point was that even if you have a "counter" the other person still might be better than you or used to playing against that counter.

true, but this has nothing to do with quagsire specifically. haze quag, as you said, is at best, a shaky check to bp, and requires you to sac a moveslot, which usually ends up being Toxic. Not good, as this is mandatory for stallbreaking and countering set-up sweepers ala Char-X. For its intended role, Quag doesn't have the room to spare a moveslot - the Haze setup gives you an answer to BP pre-setup, but doesn't serve any function other than that. Bottomline: it's a gimmick. Not trying to be mean, I just don't see any reason for continuing this debate.

 

[WebBowser]

Yeah Web I know you arent a troll, and that replay is from UU so sorry, but I dont even need to see it. I know you are, and have been very vocal about this but I dont think I know what your stance is, its mainly just because I am lazy and you post alot every time XD. But could you very simply put what you think should be done about baton pass. Because I am firmly against a scolipede ban, because that is totally unfair to him when he is not the problem, its his ability to baton pass that is the problem.

P.S. Obviously Haunter was kidding lol.

Mmkay, I'll go ahead and post a brief summery of my stance. Basically, I believe Scolipede (mainly the iron defense set) to be a potentially broken mon, even without the assistance of a full BP chain. I believe this primarily due to the sheer number of pokemon that it can setup iron defense in front of with little to no risk, as well as the lack of mons that can swap into scolipede and prevent it from passing (for example, CB talonflame does about 50% to scoli after an iron defense). Speed and Defense are startlingly synergistic stats that can make a wide variety of setup sweepers "unrevengable", meaning that they cannot be outsped and take a pittance from all but the strongest SE priority moves. If it is indeed the case that Scolipede is a broken mon, then it would be premature and unwise to ban/nerf teams built around BP just because they happen to take advantage of the support provided by a broken mon.

For the record, I call Scolipede "potentially broken" instead of outright "broken" because jbtc10 has argued quite convincingly that there are a wide variety of special threats in the OU tier that have few to no safe swap ins, which can stop the receiver from sweeping. However, I worry that this can be circumvented(with light screen or mememto for example) and/or is a possible case of broken checking broken (I am particularly concerned with thundy, lando-I, and aegis, all listed as common scolipede counter-leads).

I can support any of the above points with replay evidence, reasoning, and calcs (where they apply).

P.S. Yeah, I know the replay is UU, the replay was less a serious argument against banning BP and more of an example of healthy gameplay existing even with multiple baton passers on the same team.

P.S.S. Yeah I know I write a lot, but I cannot stand the idea of a poorly constructed argument and good arguments take time and space :P

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Mmkay, I'll go ahead and post a brief summery of my stance. Basically, I believe Scolipede (mainly the iron defense set) to be a potentially broken mon, even without the assistance of a full BP chain. I believe this primarily due to the sheer number of pokemon that it can setup iron defense in front of with little to no risk, as well as the lack of mons that can swap into scolipede and prevent it from passing (for example, CB talonflame does about 50% to scoli after an iron defense). Speed and Defense are startlingly synergistic stats that can make a wide variety of setup sweepers "unrevengable", meaning that they cannot be outsped and take a pittance from all but the strongest SE priority moves. If it is indeed the case that Scolipede is a broken mon, then it would be premature and unwise to ban/nerf teams built around BP just because they happen to take advantage of the support provided by a broken mon.

For the record, I call Scolipede "potentially broken" instead of outright "broken" because jbtc10 has argued quite convincingly that there are a wide variety of special threats in the OU tier that have few to no safe swap ins, which can stop the receiver from sweeping. However, I worry that this can be circumvented(with light screen or mememto for example) and/or is a possible case of broken checking broken (I am particularly concerned with thundy, lando-I, and aegis, all listed as common scolipede counter-leads).

I can support any of the above points with replay evidence, reasoning, and calcs (where they apply).

P.S. Yeah, I know the replay is UU, the replay was less a serious argument against banning BP and more of an example of healthy gameplay existing even with multiple baton passers on the same team.

P.S.S. Yeah I know I write a lot, but I cannot stand the idea of a poorly constructed argument and good arguments take time and space :P

Ok so you only think scolipede is broken with baton pass/ in baton pass chains, but dont think that the entire playstyle of baton pass is broken. That makes sense, and I am inclined to agree with you. So am I to assume you would support option 3?

The only thing I think we differ on is that I see no reason not to ban baton pass, it is either a very bad gimmick or incredibly broken. As all of us as a community have shown, it is hard to make it fall in the middle, and honestly I see no reason to keep trying. Banning baton pass seems easiest, but I am also equally for option 3. I think if they end up going with the 1 bp mon per team, we may then come back to your main argument of scolipede being too good at passing boosts, and then we may come back to either banning scolipede(which would make the tier lose some variety in late game cleaners) or we just end up banning speed boost+ baton pass.

 

[WebBowser]

Ok so you only think scolipede is broken with baton pass/ in baton pass chains, but dont think that the entire playstyle of baton pass is broken. That makes sense, and I am inclined to agree with you. So am I to assume you would support option 3?

The only thing I think we differ on is that I see no reason not to ban baton pass, it is either a very bad gimmick or incredibly broken. As all of us as a community have shown, it is hard to make it fall in the middle, and honestly I see no reason to keep trying. Banning baton pass seems easiest, but I am also equally for option 3. I think if they end up going with the 1 bp mon per team, we may then come back to your main argument of scolipede being too good at passing boosts, and then we may come back to either banning scolipede(which would make the tier lose some variety in late game cleaners) or we just end up banning speed boost+ baton pass.

Close, but not quite.

Basically, I believe Scolipede (mainly the iron defense set) to be a potentially broken mon, even without the assistance of a full BP chain

Basically, I am currently unsure if the full playstyle of BP teams is broken. This is because I believe Scolipede to be a potentially broken mon, and if he is indeed broken, then obviously a team built to support him / abuse his support would by extension be broken. If that is the case, we cannot make any sort of decision on BP as a playstyle (Though Sub 18 and Stathy made some good arguments for BP being a broken concept even without scoli)

I supported option 3 during the suspect because I had believed at the time that scoli was broken and option 3 was the only one that addressed it. I am still for option 3, though a scolipede suspect test may also be in order, as there are plenty of folks with good arguments against the brokenness of scoli.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Close, but not quite.



Basically, I am currently unsure if the full playstyle of BP teams is broken. This is because I believe Scolipede to be a potentially broken mon, and if he is indeed broken, then obviously a team built to support him / abuse his support would by extension be broken. If that is the case, we cannot make any sort of decision on BP as a playstyle (Though Sub 18 and Stathy made some good arguments for BP being a broken concept even without scoli)

I supported option 3 during the suspect because I had believed at the time that scoli was broken and option 3 was the only one that addressed it. I am still for option 3, though a scolipede suspect test may also be in order, as there are plenty of folks with good arguments against the brokenness of scoli.

This is the one thing that confuses me, you are saying that even if option 3 is implemented you would still want to suspect scoilpede?

 

[WebBowser]

This is the one thing that confuses me, you are saying that even if option 3 is implemented you would still want to suspect scoilpede?

No, I worded that sentence poorly. My apologies. Basically, a large number of folks were against option 3 because they didn't see quick pass scoli as being broken. I personally am unsure of Scolipede's brokenness myself. Therefore, a Scolipede suspect test may be in order.

 

[pws72000]

Ok so you only think scolipede is broken with baton pass/ in baton pass chains, but dont think that the entire playstyle of baton pass is broken. That makes sense, and I am inclined to agree with you. So am I to assume you would support option 3?

The only thing I think we differ on is that I see no reason not to ban baton pass, it is either a very bad gimmick or incredibly broken. As all of us as a community have shown, it is hard to make it fall in the middle, and honestly I see no reason to keep trying. Banning baton pass seems easiest, but I am also equally for option 3. I think if they end up going with the 1 bp mon per team, we may then come back to your main argument of scolipede being too good at passing boosts, and then we may come back to either banning scolipede(which would make the tier lose some variety in late game cleaners) or we just end up banning speed boost+ baton pass.

This is something I just can't accept. I don't understand this all or nothing mentality you and others express when others such as me have exhaustively proven both the validity of BP in alternative playstyles as well as the near uselessness of BP as a standalone move.

This is the one thing that confuses me, you are saying that even if option 3 is implemented you would still want to suspect scoilpede?

makes perfect sense to me.

 

[THEHABBENING]

Why not just ban/suspect Speed Boost? Scolipede having it is the only reason Baton Pass teams are such a problem, and the only other relevant Speed Boost user is Blaziken (Ubers).

 

[dwarfstar]

Why not just ban/suspect Speed Boost? Scolipede having it is the only reason Baton Pass teams are such a problem, and the only other relevant Speed Boost user is Blaziken (Ubers).

Because other options won't fuck things up for lower tiers, but this one will. If a given ability/Pokemon/whatever gets banned in a higher tier, it's banned in the tiers below it too. We have options that won't result in RU losing Sharpedo and restricting the diversity on Yanmega (most of them already run Tinted Lens anyway, but there's still no need to deny them a set), so it makes no sense to ban Speed Boost when we can restrict Baton Pass to one Pokemon per team or just ban Scolipede.