The bigger issue with Stall, IMO, is that this isn't actually how it works in-game; in-game it is last within the priority bracket. Lagging Tail and Full Incense are last within priority bracket in ASB, so I'm not sure why Stall ignores priority (to the best of my knowledge it's been that way since the start of ASB, possibly to buff Sableye, possibly as a mistake, who knows). I feel like this should be changed both to be consistent with Lagging Tail/Full Incense/in-game and because Sableye really doesn't need the extra boost (Stall Metal Burst is kinda dumb). Idk, maybe other people don't care or prefer it this way, but as one of the people who's been bringing up Stall most on IRC I figure I should clarify the issue here.
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Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III
- Thread starter Dogfish44
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Unlike Lagging Tail and Full Incense, Stall is completely unique to Sableye. Also, Lagging Tail and Full Incense have another effect--making the user always hit with their moves. ASB Stall works this way to make it unique, just like it changes a few other moves/abilities/items because another move/ability/item accomplishes the same thing plus <other mechanic>.
It's not like there's that big a difference either way either. Pretty much all it does is make it so you can't use a combo to evade Metal Burst.
Yes, Stall is completely unique to Sableye. Does Sableye /really/ need the boost? You say that as if to say "well only Sableye gets Stall so we should make Stall better so Sableye can be a special snowflake" when really Sableye would still be quite good if Stall was changed to how it works in-game. And no one can really say for sure /why/ Stall works this way; it was done this way before Lagging Tail and Full Incense even existed, so it's not like Deck said Stall would ignore priority to differentiate it from Lagging Tail and Full Incense. If we want to keep it this way for that reason, then fine, but I feel like it should be discussed.
And while you make it sound like not being able to use a combo to evade Metal Burst isn't that big a deal, that's actually a fairly large deal, as it means you effectively can't combo against Sableye without running the serious risk of getting it Metal Bursted in your face. And since you oh-so-kindly mentioned Mega Sableye, the /only/ way to inflict any kind of status on Mega Sableye (barring Mold Breaker) will be comboes. Which can be Stall Metal Bursted. Mega Sableye might still be stupid broken regardless of a Stall fix (or it could be completely fine, IDK), but fixing Stall certainly couldn't hurt and wouldn't nerf regular Sableye into the ground either.
I don't think I've ever seen Metal Burst being a problem. Or used Stall Metal Burst when there were 23085723952379058023985712302 more effective options available.
To be 100% honest, I feel this is making a mountain out of a molehill. Metal Burst is ridiculously weak and, more often than not, Sableye has better things to do (like Pain Split). Stall, in this format, at least give it some kind of use as rare as it.
And I find hilarious when people go "megasableye will eat our souls". Megasableye won't have everstone, its SpA will be boosted (and it special movepool is kinda barren) and, honestly? If you are using status to defeat sableye with or without magic bounce, you need to rethink your strategies, because Prankster already made that a dubious way to go.
In the end, unless the stat distribution is optimal (like necturna) and/or ORAS Tutors are really kind to it, I seriously doubt Megasableye will see much usage or will be as OMFGBBQ as most think. Priority Taunt already makes hazards and status a bad idea and its great atk with everstone is probably its main asset, as it allows sableye to keep an offensive pressure with great stats and movepool while blocking attempts at disruption against it through the threat of priority taunt/imprison. Using Megasableye will end up only eating your Megaslot for...well...pretty much no return. Kinda like Mega Abomasnow.
To be 100% honest, I feel this is making a mountain out of a molehill. Metal Burst is ridiculously weak and, more often than not, Sableye has better things to do (like Pain Split). Stall, in this format, at least give it some kind of use as rare as it.
And I find hilarious when people go "megasableye will eat our souls". Megasableye won't have everstone, its SpA will be boosted (and it special movepool is kinda barren) and, honestly? If you are using status to defeat sableye with or without magic bounce, you need to rethink your strategies, because Prankster already made that a dubious way to go.
In the end, unless the stat distribution is optimal (like necturna) and/or ORAS Tutors are really kind to it, I seriously doubt Megasableye will see much usage or will be as OMFGBBQ as most think. Priority Taunt already makes hazards and status a bad idea and its great atk with everstone is probably its main asset, as it allows sableye to keep an offensive pressure with great stats and movepool while blocking attempts at disruption against it through the threat of priority taunt/imprison. Using Megasableye will end up only eating your Megaslot for...well...pretty much no return. Kinda like Mega Abomasnow.
...yeah, probably shouldn't have brought up the competitive aspect again. *sigh* Fair enough, Stall Metal Burst probably isn't as relevant as I think it is. Still, I still haven't seen a particularly good argument why Stall should ignore priority aside from "it makes Sableye special" which feels to me like a weak argument, especially when we've changed a bunch of other things to better reflect in-game. Again, if people really feel like Sableye needs to be a special snowflake who can ignore priority when other mons with Lagging Tail/Full Incense can't then fine, whatever. But otherwise I don't really see any reason why we shouldn't switch it.
Some questions to elaborate on Stall:
Pain Split: Enough support to see this going up, if anyone please (or I'll get to doing it during this weekend).
- What happens with Damaging Evasive moves or charge-up attacks such as Razor Wind and Sky Attack? When will the Stall mon be in the Evasion phase?
- Will Stall definitely overwrite Prankster / Gale Wings / etc. since it is triggered on an active order?
Pain Split: Enough support to see this going up, if anyone please (or I'll get to doing it during this weekend).
Stall
When Stall is activated, the Pokemon moves last on that action. In the event that its move has two phases, the first phase occurs after all other actions have been resolved, and the second phase occurs after the first phase. If two Stall Pokemon are fighting each other (afaik not looking at NDA atm) and activate Stall on the same action, the first trainer that ordered Stall will override and go last, as per the description – if that means Sableye begins Dig after opposing Sableye come up from their Dig, so be it. Going by current wording – more specifically the absolute language and lack of assigned priority – it does nullify priority-related effects of abilities because it goes "regardless of ordinary attack priority." Maybe I'm being dense here but the wording does make everything pretty clear ._.
I also support Frosty in regards to Mega Sableye. It's currently nearly impossible to out-status a Sableye, and the best way to deal with it is just spam powerful direct attacks. Metal Burst is also woefully underwhelming; even if the damage is worth it sometimes, the energy cost is something not to be trifled with. Combined with the fact that it loses out on the +2 boost to Atk and Def, I would be surprised if it were much better than Everstone Sableye.
Fractional BAP on Attacks
So I just got screwed over by a word I had not believed was present, ever: "rounded." I'm not happy about it.
I don't understand why moves such as Water Spout, Eruption, and Gyro Ball need to have their BAP rounded. We're perfectly fine with fractional BAP – we have 22.5 BAP Mega Earthquakes, 17.5 BAP Ember + Flamethrower – as well as fractional EN costs such as those from Pain Split or Protect, and we've moved towards accepting decimals in general; for example, we now round damage only at the end of each round. Given that, there is no point to include such a phrase in BAP calculation of these moves.
Even if it is decided that BAP rounding on these moves should be kept for whatever reason, there's still a horrible inconsistency. Gyro Ball's BAP rounds normally with a cap of 15. On the other hand, Water Spout's BAP is floored with a minimum of 1. Why exactly is one rounded normally while the other is floored? Makes absolutely no sense.
Removing rounding from the BAP values not only eliminates the inconsistency between rounding policies but gives a more accurate value for how much power your move should have, which is the general trend ASB has been gravitating towards for quite a long while.
Magic Guard and Confusion
I made a proposal here earlier to rectify the discrepancy between cartridge and ASB mechanics of Magic Guard by removing Magic Guard's immunity to self-damage caused by confusion. Given that nobody has objected, everyone I have asked has agreed or provided no opinion, and Dogfish refuses to have this passed by fiat (yet doesn't want to put up a discussion thread), I'm requesting that this be moved to discussion.
When Stall is activated, the Pokemon moves last on that action. In the event that its move has two phases, the first phase occurs after all other actions have been resolved, and the second phase occurs after the first phase. If two Stall Pokemon are fighting each other (afaik not looking at NDA atm) and activate Stall on the same action, the first trainer that ordered Stall will override and go last, as per the description – if that means Sableye begins Dig after opposing Sableye come up from their Dig, so be it. Going by current wording – more specifically the absolute language and lack of assigned priority – it does nullify priority-related effects of abilities because it goes "regardless of ordinary attack priority." Maybe I'm being dense here but the wording does make everything pretty clear ._.
I also support Frosty in regards to Mega Sableye. It's currently nearly impossible to out-status a Sableye, and the best way to deal with it is just spam powerful direct attacks. Metal Burst is also woefully underwhelming; even if the damage is worth it sometimes, the energy cost is something not to be trifled with. Combined with the fact that it loses out on the +2 boost to Atk and Def, I would be surprised if it were much better than Everstone Sableye.
Fractional BAP on Attacks
So I just got screwed over by a word I had not believed was present, ever: "rounded." I'm not happy about it.
I don't understand why moves such as Water Spout, Eruption, and Gyro Ball need to have their BAP rounded. We're perfectly fine with fractional BAP – we have 22.5 BAP Mega Earthquakes, 17.5 BAP Ember + Flamethrower – as well as fractional EN costs such as those from Pain Split or Protect, and we've moved towards accepting decimals in general; for example, we now round damage only at the end of each round. Given that, there is no point to include such a phrase in BAP calculation of these moves.
Even if it is decided that BAP rounding on these moves should be kept for whatever reason, there's still a horrible inconsistency. Gyro Ball's BAP rounds normally with a cap of 15. On the other hand, Water Spout's BAP is floored with a minimum of 1. Why exactly is one rounded normally while the other is floored? Makes absolutely no sense.
Removing rounding from the BAP values not only eliminates the inconsistency between rounding policies but gives a more accurate value for how much power your move should have, which is the general trend ASB has been gravitating towards for quite a long while.
Magic Guard and Confusion
I made a proposal here earlier to rectify the discrepancy between cartridge and ASB mechanics of Magic Guard by removing Magic Guard's immunity to self-damage caused by confusion. Given that nobody has objected, everyone I have asked has agreed or provided no opinion, and Dogfish refuses to have this passed by fiat (yet doesn't want to put up a discussion thread), I'm requesting that this be moved to discussion.
Big Root Draining Kiss
This thing still inexplicably heals more damage than it does. How have we not fixed this? My proposal is to cap Big Root at 100% of damage as healing and remove the additional energy cost. Drain Punch and Giga Drain already cost fricken 12 EN. Draining Kiss should probably be boosted to like 9 EN base anyway. Mega Drain costs that and 1 more BAP easily equates to 75% base healing.
This thing still inexplicably heals more damage than it does. How have we not fixed this? My proposal is to cap Big Root at 100% of damage as healing and remove the additional energy cost. Drain Punch and Giga Drain already cost fricken 12 EN. Draining Kiss should probably be boosted to like 9 EN base anyway. Mega Drain costs that and 1 more BAP easily equates to 75% base healing.
So I heard that there are many things from DAT that got changed on the transition to NDA without voting/new rulings and stuff.
Example: DAT Clamp dealt 3hp of damage and NDA Clamp deals 2hp. Some Trapping moves lasted 6a (i think) and now last 4a. And some other stuff.
Question: in such case, which one is valid: the original rule or the changed rule?
Personally I feel that the original rule should prevail, but I would like a ruling on the matter.
Example: DAT Clamp dealt 3hp of damage and NDA Clamp deals 2hp. Some Trapping moves lasted 6a (i think) and now last 4a. And some other stuff.
Question: in such case, which one is valid: the original rule or the changed rule?
Personally I feel that the original rule should prevail, but I would like a ruling on the matter.
Trapping moves have always lasted 4a.
The original should be the one used unless there's been a council-approved change imo
The original should be the one used unless there's been a council-approved change imo
I'm going to propose something weird here: what if we make draining move cost the normal en cost for moves of their BAP+the damage healed/2 or something like that? It would make it so that it costs more relative to how much you heal, which would nerf Big Root significantly imo.
Since the GTS has reached the landmark of 100 million trades, Fancy Pattern Vivillon is out, and with it Hold Hands. The in-game description is
However, it appears that it does not actually boost happiness, and is a lot like Celebrate in that it does absolutely nothing, so I propose that it becomes
So apparently Fairy doesn't have a boosting item in the vein of Soft Sand, Hard Stone, et al. Feels like we should make one, if only so that the poor Fairy Gym can have one to hand out along with badge like the other gyms and so that the more OCD among us don't have to be concerned about only 17 of the 18 types having one. Perhaps call it Pixie Dust?
iirc we decided against it at 6th gen implementation because it wasn't in game.
I'd rather adapt Pink Bow from GSC if anything
I'd rather adapt Pink Bow from GSC if anything
That was a Deck_Knight fiat. We have no control over his actions.
You know, people should vote on the Wide Guard voting so it ends sometime soon or later.
Also, Frisk.
We have the following item-related bonuses:
a) direct extra damage (charcoal etc)
b) direct extra BAP (Plates)
c) Boost offensive stats which increase damage (rare candy, most signature items)
d) Boost offensive ranks (Weakness Policy, most berries)
Does Frisk affect all of them? Because when the NDA says "ignores any item-based increases in damage or status" it makes me believe that any increase that comes from an item is included (which means a), b), c) and d)).
and I gotta be honest, that seems like a bit too much. Don't get me wrong, my Dusknoir just got it and would love to abuse it, but it seems too good.
Or at least it seems something that could use some clarification on the NDA.
Also, Frisk.
We have the following item-related bonuses:
a) direct extra damage (charcoal etc)
b) direct extra BAP (Plates)
c) Boost offensive stats which increase damage (rare candy, most signature items)
d) Boost offensive ranks (Weakness Policy, most berries)
Does Frisk affect all of them? Because when the NDA says "ignores any item-based increases in damage or status" it makes me believe that any increase that comes from an item is included (which means a), b), c) and d)).
and I gotta be honest, that seems like a bit too much. Don't get me wrong, my Dusknoir just got it and would love to abuse it, but it seems too good.
Or at least it seems something that could use some clarification on the NDA.
Considering the boost provided by Weakness Policy and co. is gained only after the item is consumed, I'd be inclined to believe that d) shouldn't be affected by frisk. If only because the boost to damage isn't coming from the item, it's coming from the boosts which we're provided by the item. At least that's my take on it.
I agree with sub, the way I ref it the item has to "Active" in order to frisk to activate, if the item is one such as weakness policy or some berry then the boost wouldn't be negated. To me: Frisk negates any damage increase where the item is the direct source of said increase while if the item is indirectly responsible (like with weakness policy) then the boost is NOT negated (Here the Atk / SpA boost are what gives the damage boost, the item only provides said boost)
I have reffed it so that only A) and B) apply. A rank boost is NOT a direct damage boost; it boosts whatever ranks, and then if that stat is used then damage is boosted by the boosted rank. And if we rule that as being negated then we get into weird situations with items that can raise different ranks depending on base stats; does Frisk negate Everstone if it boosts Defense? If it boosts Attack? If it boosts both? And so on. As for the Weakness Policy type of item, I stand by the same thing, it doesn't directly boost the damage of an attack but instead grants you stat boosts which then boost damage.
To review, IMO Frisk should only disable items which DIRECTLY boost either the BAP or the final damage of an attack. Basically if the item should show up in the damage formula (as a boost anyway, since right now Frisk doesn't disable defensive items), it's negated, otherwise it still has effect.
To review, IMO Frisk should only disable items which DIRECTLY boost either the BAP or the final damage of an attack. Basically if the item should show up in the damage formula (as a boost anyway, since right now Frisk doesn't disable defensive items), it's negated, otherwise it still has effect.
I get your arguments yeah, but here is the catch: NDA doesn't say anything about "direct" increases or that increases must be due to held-items. It states: any item-based damage increase.
Weakness Policy is consumed? yeah. But it still increases damage, so the damage is item-based. Based on a consumed item, but still item-based :/ .
Even if my interpretation is minority, it isn't absurd or ridiculous. The text allows it. So if it is deemed that it isn't supposed to be that way, then the text on NDA should be changed. Without the need for a voting IMO since it is just a text fix.
Weakness Policy is consumed? yeah. But it still increases damage, so the damage is item-based. Based on a consumed item, but still item-based :/ .
Even if my interpretation is minority, it isn't absurd or ridiculous. The text allows it. So if it is deemed that it isn't supposed to be that way, then the text on NDA should be changed. Without the need for a voting IMO since it is just a text fix.
Frosty: I'm pretty sure it's not meant to disable the boosts from Weakness Policy; that would just be silly IMO. You're right that it should be clarified, whichever way it rules.
Gerard: I don't see why it should ignore the Atk and SpA rank boosts; I feel like that just adds an extra inconsistency that doesn't need to be there when it could just literally be defined as "any boost that appears in the damage formula".
Gerard: I don't see why it should ignore the Atk and SpA rank boosts; I feel like that just adds an extra inconsistency that doesn't need to be there when it could just literally be defined as "any boost that appears in the damage formula".
H-h-hey, Mega Aboma gets extra defense/special defense instead of the STAB boost...and if you're using it as part of a multiples team...oh heck with it. *curls into the fetal position and cries, hoping desperately for Mega Aboma Hail to get buffed to 3 DPA or something.*
..........................
Anyways, onto my thoughts on Sableye.
I'm probably suffering from sore rump (what with not preparing for Sableye in my SIC(K) teamcomp, then severely overreacting to it and getting my ass kicked accordingly) and relative inexperience, but Sableye feels very frustrating and counterintuitive to fight. Its movepool offers seemingly incredible control over a fight, to the point that I felt like I had to at all costs stop it from using Taunt before it simply toyed with me afterwards.
It's not just Stall Metal Burst, it's the lopsided amount of control at Sableye's disposal. It's not just Stall Metal Burst that's frustrating--it's also Pain Split, recovery moves, and the ability to completely ignore damaging evasive abilities. It can then still use Everstone (or perhaps if at the time he can afford the energy costs, Metal Burst/Counter) to win the damage race. That is absolutely infuriating.
As for the counterintuitive part, that actually is mostly Stall Metal Burst. The possibility of Sableye using it makes me feel bad for fighting Sableye with raw damage output, even if that's how you're supposed to handle it.
Mega Sableye, even if its special movepool is limited to various 6 BP moves, Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Psychic, Signal Beam, Power Gem, and Dazzling Gleam, just happens to hammer the last nail in the coffin when it comes to having any hope of playing around its game. And making Stall "you go last in your priority bracket, no exceptions" isn't just about Mega Sableye--it's about making Sableye less frustrating to fight and making it possible to do something about Metal Burst (making it less discouraging to just try to outdamage Sableye).
Finally, couldn't we buff Metal Burst to deal more damage (like 4/3 (133.33...%) x damage taken) if Sableye lost "absolute Stall" to make it useful on more Pokemon?
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