Serious Biochemistry, Bioinformatics, and Genetics (questions.)

[aVocado]

I just graduated high school and I'm applying for a scholarship to study abroad, and the form for applying here where I live is kinda weird and shitty. Basically, I have to list 8 desired majors, in order of preference, that I would want to study. I love Biology, and I really dig Genetics and want to major in it, so I put Genetics & Bioinformatics in Ireland as my first choice and Genetics in Australia as my second. Now, I love biology, but I absolutely loath and hate maths (and suck at it for that reason), and I've searched what "Bioinformatics" means and it appears to be mostly software-based, and dependent on Computer Sciences and maths, and that kinda got me worried. What exactly is studying Bioinformatics going to be like?

I really wanna study Genetics, and hopefully in the UK or Ireland, and the only options I have to choose from are Australia and Ireland, so yeah.

Anyway, since there are only two options for Genetics, it leaves up 6 other slots that I have to fill with majors that I would want to study, and Biochemistry was included in the list. So I just wanted to ask, what exactly is Biochemistry? I've looked it up but I still don't seem to get it. I've studied Organic Chemistry and I liked it, so how related is Biochemistry to that, and to biology in general?

Hopefully I'll get answers quickly :] thanks in advance.

 

[Harsha]

Biochemistry simply adds a larger focus on chemistry to the bio major—I believe biochemistry is actually the recommended major for pre-med students because the MCAT will soon have a larger focus on chemistry than it currently does. If you enjoyed organic chemistry then you'll likely enjoy biochemistry more than the standard biology track. I do have to say that you'll likely be required to take some sort of maths class even if you major in genetics, though; genetics and statistics are actually very intertwined, and most American med schools require college level calculus along with other math courses (I'm not sure if foreign schools have this same requirement, though).

 

[jumpluff]

Biochemistry simply adds a larger focus on chemistry to the bio major—I believe biochemistry is actually the recommended major for pre-med students because the MCAT will soon have a larger focus on chemistry than it currently does. If you enjoyed organic chemistry then you'll likely enjoy biochemistry more than the standard biology track. I do have to say that you'll likely be required to take some sort of maths class even if you major in genetics, though; genetics and statistics are actually very intertwined, and most American med schools require college level calculus along with other math courses (I'm not sure if foreign schools have this same requirement, though).

He's going to (prolly) Ireland/Australia. At the universities I've reviewed (admittedly cursorily because I'm studying something else), premed students take a different stream to students taking a Bachelor of Science/Chemistry/whatever OP will end up taking. (you're right though, they do take a lot of chem)

I will agree though that math (like Harsha said, especially statistics) is very important in genetics. I study genetics in Australia and have been looking at transferring for awhile, and in every university I'd desire to study undergrad genetics / neuro at, statistics at the very least is necessary. At least two units of first-year math (including calculus and with a dedicated stat option) are necessary for all science students at my shitty rural university, and I'm pretty sure genetics students continue on with statistics. Arikado, you can't really escape basic math skills for what you're looking to study, if only because you need to be somewhat statistically literate to get through undergrad science, and other mathematics depending on your program. I'd take a look at the universities you could be going to in Ireland and Australia and look at what their programs' respective math expectations are. The more programs you look at for the things you're considering the better; while a major can sound great, the courses you take for it at a given university might be really different from what you wanted.

Bioinformatics appears to be mostly modelling/data analysis + other computing techniques applied to data, so, basically, yeah, you'll end up doing a lot of math (and probably compsci) in that. Tagging Bass because he does climate change modelling iirc.

 

[Hipmonlee]

My Dad's a biochemist, and he always said that when he wanted to hire people a biochemistry major is a waste of time. He would much rather higher chemistry students.

I dont really have much more insight to offer than that, but in the general case, unless there is a really specific reason for doing a more specialised degree I.E. you need it for some job or graduate course, do the generic version.

 

[peng]

I'm currently studying biochemistry, just about to start my masters in september. Just to clarify what the degrees are:

• Biochemistry is basically studying biological processes at the molecular level with the aim of tackling disease through drug design - hence why its often referred to as molecular biology. Its so completely unlike anything you do in school that its hard to sum up in words here - its a completely distinct subject in its own right. You'll do a ton of genetics in biochemistry both in your essential modules and any good university will have optional genetics modules.
• Bioinformatics is more difficult to explain - its using conformational approaches to analyse data and make models that can be used to predict how similar things work. For example, one of the major areas in computational biology has been developing programs that allow us to predict how DNA, RNA and proteins fold based on previous data, but its a really wide field that also encompasses a lot of genetics. Its really ComSci heavy, so maybe stay away if you aren't into that sort of thing.

I wouldn't be put off by what Hipmonlee has said above. I don't know where his dad works but for the sort of jobs biochemistry is specifically preparing you for - namely cancer, alzheimers, HIV etc research - a biochemistry degree is favoured over basically everything else. You can go into research with other degrees but you'll probably find the first year of your PhD will be trying to understand why the techniques you use in research actually work. For reference, I know a number of microbiologists who have struggled in the transition to their PhD because their degree only teaches them the outcome of previous research and doesn't actually go into significant detail of how those results were obtained. Similarly, of the 30 or so PhD students I talk to on a regular basis, none of them did chemistry degrees. A chemistry degree is completely inappropriate for that kind of scientific research.

If you want to go into industry (GSK, AstraZeneca, Pfizer), biochemistry is again a great degree. These companies hire a lot of chemists for drug synthesis but everything up to that point is done by biochemists.

tl;dr if you want to do research / industry in biological sciences then biochemistry is probably the best rounded degree as you literally just get taught how to do research so you can go off and actually do it. Its an all-around solid degree too, so its not like you are limiting yourself to just research. A lot of biochemists go into teaching, science journalism, patent law etc and, like with literally any degree you can still end up selling out and doing accountancy if you want.

PM me if you want any more information on what biochemistry actually involves, I'm happy to help.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Genetics is a hot topic, but last time I read my genetics notes, there is an awful lot of maths in it, and I didn't like it because I am not good at maths.
It certainly tilts more to the biotech side, and if you study genetic engineering, you would spend a lot of time memorizing names and functions of enzymes that splices DNA, together with patented products and machines. There's almost nothing that really about animals.
If you hate maths , this is not for you.

Biochemistry is not biology plus chemistry at all. It's in the middle of nowhere.
Also, maths.

Bio informatics is not something I am too familiar with,. I stayed out of it because of maths.

Basically, I think if you hate maths, you really should stay away from biotech based subjects and go for natural ones like ecology, environmental biology and maybe even marine biology.

 

[aVocado]

I think I'll have to force mysel if Genetics involved a bit of math here and there, it mostly would be a non-issue if it's something that I have to take for a semester or two. Is that the case?

 

[Lemonade]

For genetics, how far do you want to go with it? For example, do you want a PhD and do research? In this case I don't really think your dislike of math is healthy. Last summer I went to a Math Bio research + conference (moreso on the math side--most people were mathematicians first) and there were a ton of interesting and high level topics in genetics. I'm not saying lacking math is bad, but I feel like the field opens up so much more the more math you know. And if you are planning to do research, this is something you probably want.

 

[whistle]

not sure how schools outside of the US work, but if you plan on pursuing grad work, even if you cannot change your field of study at uni, you should be able to gain sufficient experience in another field so you're not confined to the same subject for grad school. I think you shouldn't worry too much about this now, but you should try to get some exposure to the different options once you are at school. you can't go from not even knowing the definition of biochemistry/bioinformatics to knowing which one you want to study for the rest of your life with only the help of random people on the internet who don't know you.

why don't you like math? do you hate solving ugly integrals? trigonometry too numb? classes all boring and pointless? you will use almost none of the typically hated math subjects from high school in your university bioinformatics or genetics courses. it is math in the sense that it is logical and uses symbolic manipulation, but everything else about it is very different (although I may be biased because I studied math - different perspective). I know molecular biology PhD students who are trying to gain programming and informatics experience late in their degree track because they think it's the future of the biomedical field - one has not taken a math class in 7 years.

I don't think you can go wrong with the choices you listed. the intro level classes for genetics/bioinformatics will probably be very similar to those for biochemistry. I think it's easier to switch into biochemistry from one of those than the other way around, similar to how you see physicists studying biology but never any biologists studying physics. those tracks teach a kind of quantitative, data-driven thinking that you don't get very much in biochemistry.

 

[risenreturn]

Aw, cool! We're in a similar situation! *high fives* 'cept I'm not going overseas, because I'm too poor to afford that. Also living down the street from a university really helps.

Anyway, From what I know, as of my grade 12 Bio class, is Biochemistry is kinda more focused on stuff like organelles and such, and how they chemically interact with each other in order to do stuff. So, the chemistry behind you're ya know... Bio. Or, more specifically, from one of the books from my university, this is how they explain the biochem. program they offer:

Hide

The Program begins with a set of core chemistry, cell biology, and molecular biology courses. In years 3 and 4, you may emphasize in either biology or chemistry, choosing from courses in metabolism and energy flow, protein and enzyme action, macromolecular structures, information flow and molecular genetics, and bio-organic and biophysical chemistry.

Also, I'm going for a program in Biotechnology, and I need just two Match courses, although both are supposed to be calculus, but I got one to be Statistics. I don't know about whichever school you're going to, but you might not need more than that. At the very least, I don't need to take a dedicated Math course after my first year, so you might have the same thing going on too.

If you still need six more options, I would suggest throwing Biochem. into the list as well. If you find a biotech program, you might want to try that too. It seems to be focused in stuff like gene cloning and DNA related technology, so that might be right up your alley. Or even a general Sciences program could be useful.

But seriously, you liked Organic Chemistry? Of the like, 100 people in my class who learned that, nobody liked Organic chemistry. my teacher, expecting that, even made sure it was the last thing in the semester we learned.

 

[aVocado]

whistle that brings big relief man. If there's anything about math the I liked, it would be the "symbolic manipulation" that you mentioned. It's just pretty fucking cool to see something and be able to manipulate it so much that it looks so different but its actually the same lol.

Honestly, if math HAS to be involved then I'm okay with it as long as it isn't -dedicated- maths with like functions and shit, other than that it's pretty cool since I've been dealing with it for a while now.

risenreturn

But seriously, you liked Organic Chemistry? Of the like, 100 people in my class who learned that, nobody liked Organic chemistry. my teacher, expecting that, even made sure it was the last thing in the semester we learned.

Well that's kinda shocking. From what I've studied in chemistry, organic chemistry is easily the most fun/probably the easiest too.. I don't know why so many people in your class didn't like it lol. It needs work memorizing certain things but otherwise it's pretty fun.

and thanks everyone else! you've all been a big help.

 

[jumpluff]

Since I saw a lot of mentions of transfers and more generalised programs in the thread, I thought it might be worth reiterating them. I remember your posts asking about Australia (at least I'm 90% that was you? Sorry if I'm wrong), and iirc you're getting financial assistance with your studies. Will you still be eligible for those payments/enrolments if you change programs within institutions? If so, since you're a first-year student, I'd definitely keep flexibility in mind, especially as you're not 100% sure of what you wanna do (and, hey, I've wanted all my life to study some form of biology and ended up doing very different stuff before deciding to study genetics; stuff changes, and I doubt you'll be studying the most specialised niche stuff in first-year biology, at least here).

(P.S. I'm pretty sure you can't get out of studying functions, at least at the first-year level, but it honestly might not be as bad as you think, and if genetics seriously interests you, I'd encourage you to give it a go and change plans if the math is truly unworkable. I am no math genius and my math classes are the subjects I have to dedicate most hard work to both because of the nature of the work and because of the nature of my abilities, but biology comes almost automatically to me.)

edit: I'm not sure of the specificity of the information you have to give in your application, but a lot of universities I've looked into applying to do one of or both Bachelor of Science and Bachelor of Biomedical Science (and most of them seem fairly interchangeable at the first-year level... my university has identical prescribed classes for them and I look into both when investigating my transfer to another institution), and you don't declare your major in the first year. At schools with more specialised 100-level classes, aim to take stuff that gives you freedom to declare more majors.

 

[aVocado]

Yeah jumpluff that was me, the financial aid will be coming for as far as I'm there until I finish the bachelors degree, and it doesn't depend on whether I changed courses etc. just depends on the country.

I guess maths will just haunt me wherever I go, it's been something I've been fearing for a while now and I guess it's come true :/ thanks for the reply. Genetics does truly interest me, so I'll just go ahead with it and take that. At worst case scenario I'd change into something like microbiology or something if I could.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Microbiology would have less to do with maths.
Plant biology and zoology have close to no maths, that's ehy I chose them.

 

[aVocado]

Plant biology is probably the only branch of biology that I don't like and kinda hate, so I'm also staying away from that.

 

[Mr.E]

Biochemistry is kinda more focused on stuff like organelles and such, and how they chemically interact with each other in order to do stuff. So, the chemistry behind you're ya know... Bio.

Yeah that's pretty much the succinct version of how I explain Biochemistry. It bridges the gap between:

Biology: "The food you eat goes through your digestive system, made up of X / Y / Z, to produce energy for your body."
Chemistry: "This particular food is made up of this-and-that, which gets broken down into something-else when ingested."

How those digestive processes work to break things down and how the body uses their basic components is the domain of biochemistry. I wouldn't really consider it a specialized degree, it's just the go-between of pure biology and chemistry where the latter normally deals with "how" in a vacuum and biology only cares for the end result. It's highly applicable to the drug research field, for example, but that's more specifically pharmacology. You can do more than drug research.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Plant biology is probably the only branch of biology that I don't like and kinda hate, so I'm also staying away from that.

Really?
It's not as boring as I thought.

I personally thought genetic engineering more boring, all those freaking enzymes and machines to remember. Nothing to do with animals. Most of it was how do you make this piece of gene (how to cut it? what enzymes do you use to cut it?)
Thing is, researchers love bacteria, not animals.

Fundamentals of genetics could be cool sometimes when they talk about jumping genes (transposons) and how you get different colored cats, but maths (especially probability) played a large role.
They want you to calculate stuff like, how many flies will have red eyes, short torso, vestigial wings/ red eyes, long torso, vestigial wings/ white eyes...... etc. (gender linked!)

 

[risenreturn]

Fundamentals of genetics could be cool sometimes when they talk about jumping genes (transposons) and how you get different colored cats, but maths (especially probability) played a large role.
They want you to calculate stuff like, how many flies will have red eyes, short torso, vestigial wings/ red eyes, long torso, vestigial wings/ white eyes...... etc. (gender linked!)

On the other hand, the basics here however are ridiculously easy. like, way too easy. damn Punnett squares. It only gets super-complicated when trying to find the likelyhood of offfspring with like, 17 specific physical traits.

And I also agree with you about Plant Bio. I really enjoyed the bio surrounding... bigger things for the most part. But there's nothing cool in studying animals and plants, its all in molecules and bacteria >_>

 

[Cresselia~~]

But for plant bio and zoology, you get to play with the plants/ animals in lab.
There's a lot of visual learning going on. You actually get to see the real thing.

 

[MrIndigo]

Pretty much any theoretical and experimental science of any kind will involve a fairly significant level of mathematics.

It's basically unavoidable.

That being said, the biosciences have less of it than Physics or Chem. There'll be statistics mainly, and some algebra and calculus (differential equations) related to experiments and so forth. That being said, the Australian bio curricula will mostly use the math in applied contexts, not in abstracts.

 

[jumpluff]

Thing is, researchers love bacteria, not animals.

Certain bacteria make ideal model organisms for several reasons but there's plenty of room for geneticists in botany/agricultural science and zoology. The genetics staff at the university I presently attend almost entirely do agricultural research these days (and the school offers multiple genetics majors including an applied one that's geared towards that kind of work).

I imagine the practical work in the degree itself is pretty different to some of the zoology labs though, and if OP doesn't enjoy molecular work then maybe not such a good idea? It's still important. (The stuff you mentioned as part of genetic engineering is actually some of the technology I find the most fascinating)

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

One reason I became lazy as an ungrad was the apparent lack of good prospects for being an academic researcher. Interesting that nobody talked about that here since being a principle investigator in an academic lab was my initial aspiration when I was a freshman undergrad.

I found this on the blog of a former Major League Baseball pitcher who also has a PhD in organic chemistry from Duke that discusses this sentiment:

Over the years, there have been more comments than anyone can count here on the often-grim employment picture for chemistry and biology employment in biopharma. Plenty of people here (myself included) can speak from experience. But we should also remember that the academic job market in the biomedical sciences is in awful shape, too, unfortunately. And since a disproportionate number of people start off grad school picturing themselves getting jobs in academia, a clear picture of what's going on is essential.

That's the point of this piece in Nature, in the Jobs section. The author, Jessica Polka (post-doc at Harvard Medical School) says that far too many of her colleagues don't have an accurate impression of the job market. She's created this graphic to get the point across. Some 16,000 students will start graduate school in biology in the US this fall. The best guess is that fewer than 10% of them will eventually become tenure-track faculty somewhere.

But at least half of them list that as their most preferred career path, which means that a lot of things are not going to work out as planned. Polka's right - the most people who understand this, and the earlier, the better.

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2014/07/15/the_prospects_of_an_academic_job.php

 

[Eraddd]

With respect to industrial jobs in the biomedical, genetics and synthetic organic chemistry field, hirings generally fluctuate depending on the developments and discoveries of several companies. For example, Gilead is hiring in fairly large volumes because of their new Hep C drug which literally prints money for them right now. Generally though, other pharm companies are downsizing and a lot of the big companies (i.e. Merck, Bayer) have started contracting out synthesis and bio work to other smaller companies which is where your focus should also be placed on. Generally though, it's still fairly difficult to gain and hold a good job in these fields.

If you want to go into academics, good luck. You're going to assuredly need to work for a stellar supervisor with an excellent track record (does not depend on the university) while publishing high impact papers and then post doc for another highly touted supervisor and publish some high impact papers there too. It seems at this point, publishing a Nature or Science paper is almost a prerequisite for being even considered for a post. Positions in academia are slim pickings and don't think you'll be picking where you want to work; you're going to have to take professorships where they're available. Basically: I hope you absolutely love your field.

Bioinformatics is a more stable field though I don't have a great deal of knowledge in it. Aldaron probably could put his two cents in on this end.

If you're going into these field, I would keep a exit strategy i.e. programming, ability to enter an engineering degree, medical school, law school in case that you grow disillusioned with these prospects.

 

[risenreturn]

If you're going into these field, I would keep a exit strategy i.e. programming, ability to enter an engineering degree, medical school, law school in case that you grow disillusioned with these prospects.

While this is important, I would suggest against Law school. For every person wanting to go into something like a science, about 4 more probably want to go into law school. Not to mention it will likely be an extra $150,000 or so in student debts. Yes, Law School is ****ing expensive. Same idea with Med school too, although Med school generally pays much better much faster.

 

[aVocado]

I'l just let you guys know that I eventually decided to get into what I originally wanted; genetics, in Ireland. I applied for a paid scholarship and got accepted :] thanks for the help everyone.

I also looked up what I'll be studying in uni and maths will have to haunt me for a while. I'll just have to deal with it. I don't mind statistics that come with genetics/inheritance etc but it's pure math that I dislike.