np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[effyouzion]

I think you're missing the point, effyouzion. Tornadus will very rarely be taking damage in the first place, and it will always be free to switch in on Rocks, unlike Volcarona. Tornadus is much faster without a boost and has better defensive stats to take stray hits. If Torn was 4x weak to Rocks like Volc than Rocks would keep him in check. But he is ALWAYS gaining HP back. There's a lot of Pokemon that eventually get beaten because they can't switch in on hazards (like Volcarona!) but that will never happen with Torn. So stop making the false equivalency with Vocarona, and stop exaggerating the effect Rocks have on Torn.

I'm not exaggerating anything. Regnerator heals only 8% when rocks are on the field. That means Torn-T can only heal if he takes zero damage. With rocks up, the only way he can get on the field is by predicting an earthquake or using a slow u-turn, because his defenses aren't good enough to take hits when he can't heal. I have played many games with Torn-T from back when UU was in beta, and many more during this current suspect, and I know for a fact that stealth rocks take away his best asset: his ability. Once you take that away he's just a really fast mon with below average attacking stats.

Forget the Volc and Torn-T comparison. I never made it, I just pointed out the inconsistent logic people are using when someone else mentioned it. As Pokemon, Volc and Torn-T are completely different and have different reasons they're considered as suspects.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I'm not exaggerating anything. Regnerator heals only 8% when rocks are on the field. That means Torn-T can only heal if he takes zero damage. With rocks up, the only way he can get on the field is by predicting an earthquake or using a slow u-turn, because his defenses aren't good enough to take hits when he can't heal. I have played many games with Torn-T from back when UU was in beta, and many more during this current suspect, and I know for a fact that stealth rocks take away his best asset: his ability. Once you take that away he's just a really fast mon with below average attacking stats.

Forget the Volc and Torn-T comparison. I never made it, I just pointed out the inconsistent logic people are using when someone else mentioned it. As Pokemon, Volc and Torn-T are completely different and have different reasons they're considered as suspects.

His ability isn't nullified by Rocks at all. Comparatively, where every single Pokemon faces a deficit for switching in, Tornadus makes a surplus that's worth more than a Leftovers recovery. Therefore, Regenerator acts as a hazard buffer to prevent Tornadus from taking significant hazard damage. This is where Lord of Bays is correct; however, effvirizion's point is somewhat also correct.

His ability isn't nullified by Rocks at all. Comparatively, where every single Pokemon faces a deficit for switching in, Tornadus makes a surplus that's worth more than a Leftovers recovery. Therefore, Regenerator acts as a hazard buffer to prevent Tornadus from taking significant hazard damage. This is where Lord of Bays is correct; however, effvirizion's point is somewhat also correct.

Regarding hazards, effypuzion does bring up a good cocern about Rocks. Even after Regenerator, Tornadus can only heal to a maximum of 75% effectively. It's at 100% in roster but gets hit with Stealth Rock damage every switch, leaving it at a constant 75 assuming no damage is done on each switch in/switch out. Thus, Regenerator only truly negates Rocks up to 75% of Tornadus' health. Comparatively, when every other member gets chipped away by hazards, Tornadus has a method to buffer and prevent hazard damage up to a certain point. Both Bays and Zion brought up legitimate points. It's just that some loose ends need some tying up.

Also if a mod reads this, please fuse this 2ith my previous post. I fucking hate Galaxy Note and its inability to allow me to move the typecursor in this textbox.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

So uh guys, if you saw someone trolling around with a Tornadus-T / Amoonguss / Alomomola / Mienshao / Aromatisse quadruple regenerator stalling core on the ladder recently, that was me, and I apologise for that.

I'm probably just going to step in and say that Tornadus-T is the most broken piece of shit ever to grace UU (and when I say broken, I mean Kyu-b/Lando-I levels of broken). Tornadus-T is extremely versatile and deadly with an Assault Vest set, as it can come in on stuff, tank a special hit while doing shit like Knock Off and U-turn, easily crippling the opponent effectively for free since bird is just that fucking bulky without extreme defensive investment, especially with regenerator. he has a movepool that literally every pokemon would kill for with moves like uturn, heat wave, focus blast, hurricane, knock off, taunt, acrobatics etc. there's way too many shit that bird can run and bird pretty much excels with nearly every set he can run and at his job (being a bulky ass pivot that never dies)

The thing is that Tornadus-T has an immunity to every hazard except SR, which is negated by Regenerator, and can be easily removed anyway with Defog. As such, keeping Tornadus-T alive is extremely trivial while it performs his job of being a complete ass to the opponent. Shit like absol can't even walk in to get a justified boost for free because u-turn/focus blast maim it alive. Hurricane hits literally every shit hard because very few things in the tier actually resist it (mega aggron and aero are literally the only things i can think of above b+/a- that doesnt give a shit about both hurricane and knock off but the former gets eaten by focus miss anw and the latter is weak to rocks and can be stalled easily by momo)

Aside from that, Tornadus-T has a niche that he excels very well: being one of the fastest pokemon in the tier with regenerator. Mienshao gets it too but he's generally too frail to tank too many hits (and Reckless is normally prefered for the sexy HJK boost). Tornadus-T sits in a speed tier where while he needs to delegate max speed to beat zam, that's all he pretty much needs to do, and the remaining evs can be dumped between a mix of offense and defense to suit your team. He can come in on any thing and basically do shit like knock off and u-turn while he doesn't really give three shits about what the opponent does due to regen.

bird needs to get the fuck out of this tier (and i'm saying so even though it's literally the only shit holding this team from getting killed by zam, not like it matters because this was never meant to be a serious team to begin with)

i dont really have much laddering time so i can't really get a good w/l record to get this team into the higher ladder, but if anything i have like a 18-3 record with this over 2 alts (i lost 1 game to a misplay with a explosion metagross lead where i ended up losing both tornadus and mienshao, another one to sub bu braviary which i really couldn't do anything about, and i forfeited one for irl reasons, had an emergency at that time lel)

tldr: regenstall too ez, tornadus-t is fucking brainless to use and takes zero skill because its too fast and too bulky and the support it provides is fucking ridiculous at the same time.

 

[KM]

in my eyes the line of questioning should shift away from whether or not tornadus-t is broken (it is, unquestionably), and towards whether or not its healthy.

I voted UU, and you guys will see my reasoning soon enough, but i think there's overall a disturbing lack of discussion about the torn-t meta, and whether or not it's an enjoyable meta to play.

biased calcs aside, there really are plenty of checks and counters to torn-t - it really should be running taunt in that fourth slot. It's essentially no different from Victini at the minute - yes, it can run mixed LO sets and special sets that render its normal switch-ins vulnerable, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't switch in swampert/slowbro just because there's the risk of specs grass knot.

i realize that my view is incredibly obtuse and somewhat unprecedented, but i'll sort of summarize it here.

it's not a problem if fifty percent of teams use tornadus-t because it's so good, because its ability as an amazing pivot makes it healthy for the metagame as a whole and it ends up being an equal advantage. it's not like raptor or crawdaunt, who promote an unhealthy, spam-powerful-move meta that is unfun and lacks diversity.

I think the fact that torn-t almost singlehandedly makes stall, bulky offense, and HO more viable is important and that we might consider overlooking its brokenness and really consider its effects on the metagame

or I might be batshit

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I find it fun to stack away a bunch of hazards and spam ridiculously powerful stab moves, and there are people find it fun to build extremely sturdy defensive cores to wall the opponents to death, and there are people that find it fun to make teams centered around voltturn and chip away at the opponents health... Bottomline, the term ''fun'' is subjective and therefore meaningless to any suspect discussion. Considering that as you and many others (including me) have pointed out, tornadus IS broken due to its ability to consistently shut down and outlast pretty much everything in the tier while cleaning up later with zero drawbacks (no it doesnt have plenty of checks & counters wtf lol), yes, he should be banned. Yeah, no shit every single team is more viable with tornadus on it, thats kinda what happens when youre the best pokemon in the tier, that doesnt make it healthy for the tier, that just means it is ridiculously good. Also inst the entire point of uu's tiering policy to never have any broken pokemon in the meta lol.

 

[DiscoDucky]

in my eyes the line of questioning should shift away from whether or not tornadus-t is broken (it is, unquestionably), and towards whether or not its healthy.

I voted UU, and you guys will see my reasoning soon enough, but i think there's overall a disturbing lack of discussion about the torn-t meta, and whether or not it's an enjoyable meta to play.

biased calcs aside, there really are plenty of checks and counters to torn-t - it really should be running taunt in that fourth slot. It's essentially no different from Victini at the minute - yes, it can run mixed LO sets and special sets that render its normal switch-ins vulnerable, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't switch in swampert/slowbro just because there's the risk of specs grass knot.

i realize that my view is incredibly obtuse and somewhat unprecedented, but i'll sort of summarize it here.

it's not a problem if fifty percent of teams use tornadus-t because it's so good, because its ability as an amazing pivot makes it healthy for the metagame as a whole and it ends up being an equal advantage. it's not like raptor or crawdaunt, who promote an unhealthy, spam-powerful-move meta that is unfun and lacks diversity.

I think the fact that torn-t almost singlehandedly makes stall, bulky offense, and HO more viable is important and that we might consider overlooking its brokenness and really consider its effects on the metagame

or I might be batshit

You're catshit crazy.

idk what you mean by more viable, but it's tearing all of those playstyles equally apart.

 

[effyouzion]

in my eyes the line of questioning should shift away from whether or not tornadus-t is broken (it is, unquestionably), and towards whether or not its healthy.

I voted UU, and you guys will see my reasoning soon enough, but i think there's overall a disturbing lack of discussion about the torn-t meta, and whether or not it's an enjoyable meta to play.

biased calcs aside, there really are plenty of checks and counters to torn-t - it really should be running taunt in that fourth slot. It's essentially no different from Victini at the minute - yes, it can run mixed LO sets and special sets that render its normal switch-ins vulnerable, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't switch in swampert/slowbro just because there's the risk of specs grass knot.

i realize that my view is incredibly obtuse and somewhat unprecedented, but i'll sort of summarize it here.

it's not a problem if fifty percent of teams use tornadus-t because it's so good, because its ability as an amazing pivot makes it healthy for the metagame as a whole and it ends up being an equal advantage. it's not like raptor or crawdaunt, who promote an unhealthy, spam-powerful-move meta that is unfun and lacks diversity.

I think the fact that torn-t almost singlehandedly makes stall, bulky offense, and HO more viable is important and that we might consider overlooking its brokenness and really consider its effects on the metagame

or I might be batshit

Essentially what I've been trying to get across for 2 pages.

Also I think people are using a very different definition of "broken" than I am. I think something is broken if it can spam a move and win the tier (Weavile, etc) with little to no switch ins, creating that boring meta kitten milk talked about. Something like Tornadus is just good at what it does, but not over centralizing to the point where you need a weird check. Use rocks and predict well, then Tornadus can't do what it needs to do to be a threat, which is heal.

 

[Calloflochie]

in my eyes the line of questioning should shift away from whether or not tornadus-t is broken (it is, unquestionably), and towards whether or not its healthy.

I voted UU, and you guys will see my reasoning soon enough, but i think there's overall a disturbing lack of discussion about the torn-t meta, and whether or not it's an enjoyable meta to play.

biased calcs aside, there really are plenty of checks and counters to torn-t - it really should be running taunt in that fourth slot. It's essentially no different from Victini at the minute - yes, it can run mixed LO sets and special sets that render its normal switch-ins vulnerable, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't switch in swampert/slowbro just because there's the risk of specs grass knot.

i realize that my view is incredibly obtuse and somewhat unprecedented, but i'll sort of summarize it here.

it's not a problem if fifty percent of teams use tornadus-t because it's so good, because its ability as an amazing pivot makes it healthy for the metagame as a whole and it ends up being an equal advantage. it's not like raptor or crawdaunt, who promote an unhealthy, spam-powerful-move meta that is unfun and lacks diversity.

I think the fact that torn-t almost singlehandedly makes stall, bulky offense, and HO more viable is important and that we might consider overlooking its brokenness and really consider its effects on the metagame

or I might be batshit

Just going to reply to this so we can get some more current meta discussion ^_^

'There are plenty of checks and counters', yes I can agree to this, there are counters to certain Tornadus-T sets but let's break it down.

Mega-Aggron- No, reliable recovery unless you have rest but that sucks, so Torn can come in and chip that thing right the way down.
Suicune - Gets Knocked Off, U-Turns out, Torn has gotten a free 30% damage on Cune at the loss of no health
Slowbro - Removes an item, maybe Rocky Helmet so it inflicts a bit of damage on itself, U-turns out, Torn is back at full, Slowbro has become easier to deal with for something like Victini which doesn't need to worry about Rocky Helmet recoil.
Mega-Aerodactyl - Weak to SR, pretty simple predict to make, Torn U-turns, Aero is on the backfoot now and Torn is still chillin at full.
Hippowdon - Same scenario as all the others, loses it's item, u turn out, free damage and you guessed it, Torn is chillin back at high health.

etc etc etc What can counter it, is so god damn obvious that Torn just clicks U-turn and gets the fuck outta dodge. For everything else, Knock Off + U-turn is basically all you need cause at the end of the day, Torn might not be killing anything but it sure as hell isn't getting killed itself.

I think it is a problem if 50% of teams are containing Tornadus-T cause that leads to an insanely stale metagame. As it is, the prominence of ABC pink wall already makes UU boring IMO and I for one think Torn adds to the 'let's make everything live forever' aspect of UU, which for Stall players, sure is great fun for them, but makes it incredibly hard for other playstyles to do well when so much is so bulky already as it is. Being able to kill something isn't the only thing that makes a metagame 'unhealthy', Victini spams strong moves, Chandy spams strong moves, Hydreigon spams strong moves, without the addition of these wallbreakers, the meta becomes so heavily weighted to defensive play that it creates a more stale meta than one containing a good mixture of walls, wallbreakers, sweepers etc.

Also, increasing viability doesn't really have much to do with whether a Pokemon is balanced or not, whether a Pokemon is balanced or not weighs on it's impact that it has on a metagame. If i'm seeing Torn's every second battle and seeing 1v1 Torn battles at the end of game in my eyes makes me think maybe, just maybe, Torn might be a little too good for the metagame.

Gonna reply to effyouzion while i'm at it. Deoxys-Defense and Shuckle are 2 Pokemon being suspected as we speak. Do either of them kill Pokemon or 'spam a move' and win the tier. No, they set up hazards, they're not killing shit, but what they do in the meta is make it extremely overcentralising to the point where many teams in RU and OU auto lose to strategies known as 'Shuckle Web' and 'DeoSharp' respectively. So the argument that, 'it's not broken cause it doesn't kill mons hur hur' is completely retarded. Pokemon are broken on the preface that was they do is deemed either, too good (or their ability to do what they do so incredibly well, which spoiler: Torn-T is guilty of) or causes such a drastic shift in the metagame just to deal with their presence happens. Have you seen an Alakazam lately? Infernape? I sure as hell haven't and I have a sneaking suspicion that has something to do with the addition of Regenerator Bird. Torn-T makes so many extremely good mons unviable and if that isn't what you consider broken well then, i dunno what is.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

effyouzion Prediction doesnt exist against tornadus. This thing combines 3 extremely cancerous aspects of this game that automatically throw skill and prediction out of the window, those being u-turn, knock off and regenerator. U-turn gives the tornadus user momentum and 33% of health back, the only situation where u-turn can ever be considered the ''wrong'' move to use is when tornadus is your only answer to the opponent's current pokemon and you cant afford to mispredict but even then tornadus is still recovering health so youre never really at a disavantage. Secondly we have knock off, the simple most mindless move ever created. Solid 97 base power and dark type plus removing items instantly means tornadus can easily cripple anything that tries to switch on it barring megas, when you combine this with that solid 121 base speed you realize that u-turn and knock off, both of which are already frowned upon moves for their mindless nature, become even harder to deal with since tornadus can force out almost the entire metagame and always stay at an advantage. Lastly we have regenerator, this is basically the ability that i hate the most, probably tied with shadow tag, but regardless, regenerator basically rewards reckless plays and punishes your opponent for trying to predict you, its literally the definition of uncompetitive. We all know how annoying it is to deal with defensive regen cores, now lets put this ability on a pokemon that is capable of checking and crippling almost the entire tier and what you have in your hands is a monster that is almost impossible to deal with it. The reason obscure checks and gimmicks arent showing up to deal with it is because they dont exist. You basically have ampharos, aerodactyl and the mediocre aggron to work with and thats it. Choice scarf users are solely revenge killers, none of them can ever dare to switch in torn due to being koed by acrobatics or just losing their item to knock off. The argument that all you need to do is setup rocks and then youll be fine is stupid at best. This isnt BW, we have several effective methods of keeping hazards off the field that its not possible to just assume theyre staying in the entire time. Hell, tornadus can actually taunt the setters. Basically big bird is a combination of uncompetitive aspects of the game mixed in a nasty package that makes it almost impossible to deal with it, thus making it a broken/unhealthy/unbalanced/w/e term you prefer presence in XY UU. Get this thing out of here.

 

[KM]

Just going to reply to this so we can get some more current meta discussion ^_^

'There are plenty of checks and counters', yes I can agree to this, there are counters to certain Tornadus-T sets but let's break it down.

Mega-Aggron- No, reliable recovery unless you have rest but that sucks, so Torn can come in and chip that thing right the way down.
Suicune - Gets Knocked Off, U-Turns out, Torn has gotten a free 30% damage on Cune at the loss of no health
Slowbro - Removes an item, maybe Rocky Helmet so it inflicts a bit of damage on itself, U-turns out, Torn is back at full, Slowbro has become easier to deal with for something like Victini which doesn't need to worry about Rocky Helmet recoil.
Mega-Aerodactyl - Weak to SR, pretty simple predict to make, Torn U-turns, Aero is on the backfoot now and Torn is still chillin at full.
Hippowdon - Same scenario as all the others, loses it's item, u turn out, free damage and you guessed it, Torn is chillin back at high health.

etc etc etc What can counter it, is so god damn obvious that Torn just clicks U-turn and gets the fuck outta dodge. For everything else, Knock Off + U-turn is basically all you need cause at the end of the day, Torn might not be killing anything but it sure as hell isn't getting killed itself.

I think it is a problem if 50% of teams are containing Tornadus-T cause that leads to an insanely stale metagame. As it is, the prominence of ABC pink wall already makes UU boring IMO and I for one think Torn adds to the 'let's make everything live forever' aspect of UU, which for Stall players, sure is great fun for them, but makes it incredibly hard for other playstyles to do well when so much is so bulky already as it is. Being able to kill something isn't the only thing that makes a metagame 'unhealthy', Victini spams strong moves, Chandy spams strong moves, Hydreigon spams strong moves, without the addition of these wallbreakers, the meta becomes so heavily weighted to defensive play that it creates a more stale meta than one containing a good mixture of walls, wallbreakers, sweepers etc.

Also, increasing viability doesn't really have much to do with whether a Pokemon is balanced or not, whether a Pokemon is balanced or not weighs on it's impact that it has on a metagame. If i'm seeing Torn's every second battle and seeing 1v1 Torn battles at the end of game in my eyes makes me think maybe, just maybe, Torn might be a little too good for the metagame.

Gonna reply to effyouzion while i'm at it. Deoxys-Defense and Shuckle are 2 Pokemon being suspected as we speak. Do either of them kill Pokemon or 'spam a move' and win the tier. No, they set up hazards, they're not killing shit, but what they do in the meta is make it extremely overcentralising to the point where many teams in RU and OU auto lose to strategies known as 'Shuckle Web' and 'DeoSharp' respectively. So the argument that, 'it's not broken cause it doesn't kill mons hur hur' is completely retarded. Pokemon are broken on the preface that was they do is deemed either, too good (or their ability to do what they do so incredibly well, which spoiler: Torn-T is guilty of) or causes such a drastic shift in the metagame just to deal with their presence happens. Have you seen an Alakazam lately? Infernape? I sure as hell haven't and I have a sneaking suspicion that has something to do with the addition of Regenerator Bird. Torn-T makes so many extremely good mons unviable and if that isn't what you consider broken well then, i dunno what is.

I'm glad my controversial post sparked a discussion, that was actually one of my main driving forces behind essentially playing devil's advocate and examining what it really does mean to be broken.

However, you neglected to mention possibly the most important counter in Mega-Ampharos - a Pokemon that in many ways is very similar to Tornadus - T. It can fit on Offensive and Stall teams alike, has high survivability due to how good its RT set is, and acts as an amazing pivot. It's also possibly the best counter to tornadus-t - while not mega-evolved it can even threaten a u-turn due to static, and it takes little from any of its moves while shifting the momentum.

 

[Calloflochie]

I'm glad my controversial post sparked a discussion, that was actually one of my main driving forces behind essentially playing devil's advocate and examining what it really does mean to be broken.

However, you neglected to mention possibly the most important counter in Mega-Ampharos - a Pokemon that in many ways is very similar to Tornadus - T. It can fit on Offensive and Stall teams alike, has high survivability due to how good its RT set is, and acts as an amazing pivot. It's also possibly the best counter to tornadus-t - while not mega-evolved it can even threaten a u-turn due to static, and it takes little from any of its moves while shifting the momentum.

The problem with using Ampharos as a Mega as I see it, is that sure, it does a great job at countering Tornadus-T but like what else does it really do. I mean I pair Tornadus-T with any decent Spdef Ground-type and I am still not losing any momentum from running through the standard routine of Knock Off + U-turn. Oh and i'm speaking about the Resttalk one which I assume is the one you're talking about? Like with Mega-Aggron and Mega-Dactyl, they can both set up SR, one can defog, one can take every freaking physical hit known to man and even a good amount of special ones and retaliate with Thunder Wave, Heavy Slam, EQ w/e. Also, with the rest of the megas, Blastoise is a fantastic mega, strong, access to rapid spin, great coverage; Mega-Absol has the potential to sweep the entire meta at the click of a button, so in terms of sacrificing my mega spot in order to a job that other megas can do + other things doesn't seem like a reasonable trade off to me.

And yes, I know Amphy deals with Victini but 1) Try switching Amphy in on a Victini before it's mega'd and 2) I wouldn't be using Amphy as my Victini and Torn answer when it's only recovery is Rest. But still, Mega-Ampharos doesn't sway my opinion in the slightest, in fact it probably shows that people are forced to sacrifice places on their team just to counter Torn-T.

 

[Machi]

Use rocks and predict well, then Tornadus can't do what it needs to do to be a threat, which is heal.

And the same could be said of the opposing side in that you seem to be neglecting how Torn-T knock offs/U-turn + Hazards make a battle of attrition far less favorable on your side, you also seem to be forgetting the possibility of revenge kills so that easily leaves Torn with much safer switch in. It only presupposes that you have the hazard advantage and not the opponent, if so yes it would be much easier to put pressure on the opposing team, but under equal conditions it is not the same.

Regardless, you are completely neglecting the fact that has been stressed about the battle of attrition being more favored on the side with Torn-T as he is very much capable of whittling down his counters or checks, as he is immune to spikes/tspikes and while with a 25% switch in issue with rocks at the very least he is capable of passively recovering it off reliably without having to sacrifice anything on his end.

As I have said earlier this sort of mentality is just too simplistic, laying down hazards then predicting and calling it a day ignores too many aspects (e.g. hazard control).

 

[KM]

Calloflochie

I didn't get a chance to address a couple of other things in Calloflochie's original post, so I'm going to do so real quick now.

1. I want to re-clarify that under no circumstances do I think that torn-t isn't broken. I'm aware of that, and I'm also aware that other mons in UU right now are conventionally broken (hydra), but they stay in the metagame because they contribute to its health.

2. I object to the comparison to Deo-D and Shuckle because they really aren't the same. Those pokemon are objectively unhealthy for the metagame for obvious reasons, they take no skill and can set up key hazards all too reliably - which is why they're even good in the first place. My argument is on the basis that Torn-T is healthy for the metagame, so comparisons to obviously unhealthy pokes are sort of strange.

3. I think you're making Torn-T to be more of an asset to stall than it really is. While it certainly fits well on stall teams (and this is part of why it doesn't create a playstyle-centric meta), stall teams also suffer against it. Tornadus-T's best set (itemless acro with taunt) can rip holes in stall teams with Knock Off, U-turn, and Taunt, and regenerator allows it to not be worn down like stall teams desire.

4. Finally, I'd like to address your comment about Alakazam and Infernape (and hell, even lucario) and why they're not being used as much in the torn-t meta. Yes! They aren't used as much, because they aren't as good anymore! But is that really a bad thing? Many, many UU players (good ones, at that) considered these pokemon absolutely broken in the tier before the torn-t meta - even many council members expressed regret for not banning them in the first place. Now that we finally have a good offensive check/pivot, why is that a bad thing? It's not like Tornadus-T makes them completely unviable, they're just less roflstompy.

 

[Calloflochie]

1. Hydra gets worn down, it doesn't possess Regenerator, it also doesn't possess the ability to outlive it's counters. I also don't understand how you can say something is broken and is on such a huge portion of teams and still not want to ban it from the tier ?_?

2. Torn-T is a pretty brainless mon to use and the notion of 'a healthy metagame' is subject to your opinion so i'm not going to argue that since i'm not going to sway your opinion is of that one way or another.

3. If a stall team is 'ripped to pieces' by Knock Off + U-turn + Taunt, you probably need to reconsider the stall team you are using. Sure it might give problems to Blissey or Florges or whatever, but if you don't have answers to a Pokemon on a stall team that line of logic can be applied to any Pokemon, e.g Victini, Chandy, Heracross etc. Torn-T benefits just as much from an offensively orientated meta to a defensively orientated meta.

4. Like has been stated numerous times before, UU is not going to be a tier built on the fact that 1 broken mon can check another broken mon. If Tornadus-T is indeed deemed to good for the tier, then after that Infernape or Zam or whatever can be dealt accordingly.

 

[Patrick1088]

I'm glad my controversial post sparked a discussion, that was actually one of my main driving forces behind essentially playing devil's advocate and examining what it really does mean to be broken.

However, you neglected to mention possibly the most important counter in Mega-Ampharos - a Pokemon that in many ways is very similar to Tornadus - T. It can fit on Offensive and Stall teams alike, has high survivability due to how good its RT set is, and acts as an amazing pivot. It's also possibly the best counter to tornadus-t - while not mega-evolved it can even threaten a u-turn due to static, and it takes little from any of its moves while shifting the momentum.

This actually happened in one game we played. Torn-t was more manageable once paralyzed, but its only 30% chance you know?

 

[Schpoonman]

I've got a replay sitting in the wings that I'm planning on submitting to the Replay Thread (I have to play Koko in the UU Team Tournament which is why I'm waiting) that has Torn-T get paralyzed on either turn 1 or 2 from Static, but 30% is not an argument for beating Torn. I'd get more vitriolic about that but that's just asking to get infracted, and I really hope you aren't seriously arguing for Torn-T to stay in UU because of that, because if I WERE Koko that alone would make me reconsider your place on the UU Council.

 

[RowDog]

Of course Static chance isn't a reason as to why its not broken, its just funny when it happens.

Though in all honesty though Mega-Amp is a great Mega to have on a team, and seriously underrated. With access to Heal Bell, T-Wave, a great defensive typing and one of the slowest Volt Switches in the game (which packs quite a punch) is great. The Physically Defensive set is also a great alternative to stop the Fire SPAM outside of the Bulky waters, which a lot of teams have an answer to walk all over them. Tornadus-T is not the only reason for M-Amphy to be good in UU, because it does a lot of other things really well too.

 

[newfren]

I've got a replay sitting in the wings that I'm planning on submitting to the Replay Thread (I have to play Koko in the UU Team Tournament which is why I'm waiting) that has Torn-T get paralyzed on either turn 1 or 2 from Static, but 30% is not an argument for beating Torn. I'd get more vitriolic about that but that's just asking to get infracted, and I really hope you aren't seriously arguing for Torn-T to stay in UU because of that, because if I WERE Koko that alone would make me reconsider your place on the UU Council.

OK calm down buddy, he's clearly not advocating that as the only reason for torn-t to stay in uu, he's just showing something that makes amphy an even better switch-in to Torn-T

 

[Machi]

Just a bit off topic but somewhat in the same vein as Kittenmilk I personally think rather than Torn-T I would like to see Magnezone return. I find he'd be a much healthier addition to the metagame, especially with all those pink cores (well they have Blissey now so that helps alleviating some of the pressure that Zone causes), in adding pressure against them as while not necessarily pushing other styles over the edge (plus the new fighting types don't do him any favors). Shame it would probably take a while before we see him up for retest but I definitely think he should be high up the retest list if given the chance as he would have more impact.

 

[Patrick1088]

Machi blissey can be 3hko by quiet specs analytic magnezone...

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 243-286 (34 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Add in hazards and you have a decent chance to 2hko blissey while it cant twavs or toxic you in return...

 

[Calloflochie]

Just a bit off topic but somewhat in the same vein as Kittenmilk I personally think rather than Torn-T I would like to see Magnezone return. I find he'd be a much healthier addition to the metagame, especially with all those pink cores (well they have Blissey now so that helps alleviating some of the pressure that Zone causes), in adding pressure against them as while not necessarily pushing other styles over the edge (plus the new fighting types don't do him any favors). Shame it would probably take a while before we see him up for retest but I definitely think he should be high up the retest list if given the chance as he would have more impact.

Don't worry buddy, once the list of mons banished to BL at the start of UU have all been tested, the more controversial bans will have the opportunity to have another suspect test to see whether or not they are broken in the most current stage of the UU metagame. It may take a while but Pokemon like Klefki, Magnezone, Salamence (basically the mons that were subject to a fair bit of debate) will most likely be placed at the top of the list for secondary retests :]

 

[Stef0w]

So we can finally talk about tornadus-t's weaknesses, Good kitten.

1. typing, while being immune to spikes is great on a regenarator-poke, it's also weak to SR, and electirc and rock is super common as coverage.

2. Power, even with good coverage, this thing just cant take on it's counters. Heatwave and grass knot are weak, knock off only hits hard once when unSTABed, and superpower causes attack drops.

3. STAB, Acrobactics forces you to run no item, air slash is super weak, and hurricane is not very accurate.

4. Switching into attacks can wear down your other pokes.

 

[Explorer]

3. STAB, Acrobactics forces you to run no item

One thing I've done in other tiers (especially OU and XY Battle Spot Doubles) is run a Kee Berry or Maranga Berry to get a defense boost upon switching in while immediately juicing up Acrobatics. I know Tornadus pivots in and out a LOT, but wouldn't this basically be a free temporary boost? Let me ask you all whether you think it is worth needing to switch into a certain type of move (physical or special) to get that free boost.

 

[Stef0w]

One thing I've done in other tiers (especially OU and XY Battle Spot Doubles) is run a Kee Berry or Maranga Berry to get a defense boost upon switching in while immediately juicing up Acrobatics. I know Tornadus pivots in and out a LOT, but wouldn't this basically be a free temporary boost? Let me ask you all whether you think it is worth needing to switch into a certain type of move (physical or special) to get that free boost.

Fair enough, but if you have a kke berry, and they send out a special attacker, you now have a 55 base STAB.

 

[DiscoDucky]

So we can finally talk about tornadus-t's weaknesses, Good kitten.

1. typing, while being immune to spikes is great on a regenarator-poke, it's also weak to SR, and electirc and rock is super common as coverage.

2. Power, even with good coverage, this thing just cant take on it's counters. Heatwave and grass knot are weak, knock off only hits hard once when unSTABed, and superpower causes attack drops.

3. STAB, Acrobactics forces you to run no item, air slash is super weak, and hurricane is not very accurate.

4. Switching into attacks can wear down your other pokes.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Rock and Electric are all that common. Mega Ampharos is pretty much the most prominent Pokemon that runs Electric moves. All the other Pokemon who run Electric as coverage don't KO Tornadus-T. Besides, It's typing weakness is kind of a moot point considering that it outspeeds most threats that utilize moves of those typings (exception being Aerodactyl).

Addressing the second point, we've already covered how Tornadus-T is broken because of the disruptive support it causes. It really doesn't matter what it can or can't kill. His job is to be a pivot and disrupt teams with Knock Off and Taunt while providing offensive momentum with U-Turn. Besides, it's a fairly stupid argument to say that "it can't take on its counters" when the definition of a counter is a Pokemon that cannot be easily killed or damage by another Pokemon. If you want to use Tornadus as an offensive threat, go use Tornadus-I then.

Third point. Let's get one thing straight: no one runs Air Slash. As for the other two, each move provides good power, regardless of how accurate the move is. Flying is a very good offensive typing in general, and works especially well in this meta, where there are a lot of Fighting-type threats floating around UU. On the note of the Acrobatics set, it works better for the pivot set since you take less Knock Off damage and allows you to safely pivot into most of UU's common users of Knock Off. If you're

Your fourth point confuses me greatly. How does switching into attacks wear down my other Pokemon. You can't just put a one-liner out there and expect me to know how to navigate your argument from point A to point B, especially for this convoluted claim. Do you mean Tornadus-T switching into attacks or other Pokemon switching into attacks via Torn-T's U-Turn?

One thing I've done in other tiers (especially OU and XY Battle Spot Doubles) is run a Kee Berry or Maranga Berry to get a defense boost upon switching in while immediately juicing up Acrobatics. I know Tornadus pivots in and out a LOT, but wouldn't this basically be a free temporary boost? Let me ask you all whether you think it is worth needing to switch into a certain type of move (physical or special) to get that free boost.

Sounds nice, but I don't really see what kind of advantage would that generate in that one instance. It wouldn't help Tornadus-T get past the Pokemon it's up against any better than before. It's just fatter than before. I wouldn't recommend using this as it only creates a marginal advantage that does not significantly alter Tornadus-T for it to have an impact at all.