Relying on rain doesn't help the Keldeo for S cause, as independent effectiveness is a staple of S-rank. Keldeo is fine where it is in A+ and I wouldn't even protest if it dropped to A. Zebstrika did a good job of explaining.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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You are WAY oversimplifying how easy it is to check/counter Keldeo. I've had matches where my opponent has combinations of counters like Latios + AV Azumarill, and I'm running Hydro Pump / Scald / Secret Sword / Hidden Power Flying (no Icy Wind to break to Latios). I'm running typical Pursuit support so I can trap and kill Latios at basically any point. Azumarill is eventually burnt so it's crippled and I can bypass it. Two of what are being regarded as good offensive Keldeo answers aren't even that difficult to deal with. Mega Venu frankly should not be used as a sole Keldeo check because it can get burnt and then brought into Hydro Pump 2HKO range at some point, or even just flat 2HKOed by HP Flying. DNite has to watch out for Scald burns too, though Lum Berry is a thing that can help it, but it also has to watch for Icy Wind. Latios and weakened Latias can also be beat by Icy Wind. Amoon is a solid counter. Gyara has to watch out for burn unless it's RestTalk and can't check it if it's Mega Evolved. Sylveon and Togekiss are rare/mediocre (please don't quote usage stats), Clefable is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump so I don't even know why you mentioned that, Starmie is bad, Chesnaught is annihilated by HP Flying + doesn't like Scald burns + takes a lot from Secret Sword and even Hydro, AV Torn-T is burnt and killed on the next switch-in if SR is up, and Tangrowth is not that good/worn down easily with SR + Scald burn. Almost every single Keldeo check/counter has flaws and can be eliminated with them.
Keldeo can be revenge killed by numerous faster Pokemon, but that's why it belongs in A+, and not S. It's easily one of the best Pokemon in A+.
My bad, must've lost track of the discussion
There are actually Bisharp and Garchomp.
Azumarill, Bisharp, Clefable, and Tyranitar would like a word with you.
Zebstrika has expressed the same thoughts I have regarding Keldeo's shortcomings in more details than I have in a previous post. Specs Keldeo is difficult to use against balanced teams as selecting the wrong move means you have to switch out. There was even one time that a MILOTIC COUNTERED KELDEO via Mirror Coat since Secret Sword did not 2KO her. I love Keldeo but I feel slapping anyone who dismisses lower viability water types as shit. The only times I've been swept by a Keldeo (Calm Mind) was when i was trying out a stall team. Of course, he is a Stallbreaker. I don't see it more than an A rank threat, his strengths are solid OU material, I'm perplexed by those who find him S rank worthy over the others in A+ rank.
Greninja is catching up to become one of my favorite OU Pokemon too. He seems to have an easier time dealing with most of the Pokemon that would switch on Keldeo. Who is arguing for Greninja going to S rank?
Edit: I do think Rotom HEAT should be B- rank. It checks and even counters many Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Mawile, Scizor, Pinsir due to Overheat. Also one of the best answers to Talonflame and Chaizard Y. It does have advantages over Wash by having more resistances, notably resistance to electric and bug (U-turn), gets the immunity to 2 statuses, and Overheat kills anything that is weak to it. The weakness to SR and water attacks is a disadvantage over Wash.
Greninja is catching up to become one of my favorite OU Pokemon too. He seems to have an easier time dealing with most of the Pokemon that would switch on Keldeo. Who is arguing for Greninja going to S rank?
Edit: I do think Rotom HEAT should be B- rank. It checks and even counters many Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Mawile, Scizor, Pinsir due to Overheat. Also one of the best answers to Talonflame and Chaizard Y. It does have advantages over Wash by having more resistances, notably resistance to electric and bug (U-turn), gets the immunity to 2 statuses, and Overheat kills anything that is weak to it. The weakness to SR and water attacks is a disadvantage over Wash.
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Sooo about my previous
Sooooo.... about Rotom-H, is he moving up? Because he is definately more useful than the rest of the guys in C+ and arguably the guys in B- (Mega Absol is ranked above him... really?) Rotom-H deserves at least B- maybe even B
Rotom-Wash
... Fine I'll give a better explanation. Rotom-Wash exists, and since you can only take one Rotom form with you into battle, the majority of people choose Wash for its great typing (One weakness with Levitate), decent enough movepool (which Heat shares, but doesn't have a non-electric STAB that keeps it's stats intact) and the ability to check many top OU threats (Talonflame, Garchomp, Landorus, Azumarill, Tyranitar... List goes on)
And as for moving it to B... lol no.
If Staraptor is B- despite its ability to wreck havoc on anything not named Aegilsash, I doubt Rotom-Heat could bring enough to the table for B... Or even B- TBH.
I mean, Rotom-H is UU, while both Weavile and Staraptor, who are BL (Banned from UU) are just one rank above them, and at least they can be out on a team with Mammoswine/Talonflame if need be, while Rotom-H fights for the spot with Wash, and will lose around 80% of the time.
(and as for M-Absol, it's pretty good. Don't diss it's Magic Bounce)
Edit: kinda sorta ninjad except not really
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That and the fact this is like the fourth time we've turned this guy's nomination down after it derailing the thread from whatever it is we were talking bout.
What you say is correct from a certain point of view and Keldeo is theoretically (and in some ways practically) a very good wallbreaker but fails to consistently do its job when it matters. You say that each particular mon doesnt appreciate a particular coverage move but in reality, what is stopping them from switching out of said coverage moves, especially when these moves are pretty weak, even with Specs, and predicting the switch is a risky affair for the Keldeo user. You also mentioned the fact that it "doesn't need anymore than the coverage it has", the generic movepool of Keldeo is Hydro Pump, Scald, Secret Sword and either a HP of choice or Icy wind. That last spot is so crowded for choice and completely determines what counters it. Icy wind? Mega-Venu, Gyarados, Slowbro, Slyveon, Amoongus (despite being Super Effective, it doesn't 2HKO standard Amoon spread) AV and CB Azu. HP Electric? M-Venu, Amoon, CBBNite, Sylveon, Lati@s, pretty much any bulky grass type, you get the picture. Not only this, the very wide range of offensive checks is scary. The ones I mentioned all KO Keldeo guaranteed, outspeed, are very viable and common. The ones you mentioned that Keldeo can outspeed didn't really have any reason to stay in on Keldeo, even if they did outspeed, a lot of them could come in on a choice locked Keldeo if the need arose and M-Garde specifically completely rapes Keldeo even though it doesn't outspeed (Specs Hydro Pump does Max 85%) so not sure why you mentioned it. My point is that it cannot consistently break walls unless 110% predictions, which is bad, considering it's, ya know, an A+ WALLbreaker, and it has a tough time beating the many viable offensive threats that outspeed it unless the team is built around supporting it, and even some that don't. Oh and fishing for hax isn't really a reliable way to break through counters in any scenario, if that was correct then we could say "Critical Hits beat Baton Pass therefore Baton Pass isn't OP" and we all know how incorrect that statement is.
Fairies have done next to nothing to dent dragonites success other than stopping it from spamming outrage freely without thinking twice. From what i can tell it gained usage thanks to the awesome combination of multiscale, great defensive stats, access to extremespeed (something no other dragon except dragon arceus has), ability to use weakness policy better than any other pokemon, dragon dance, movepool that makes some legendarys envious, enormous attack stat, and generally great stats overall. It's movepool is so amazing that it can thus have many roles, such as a sweeper, wall, supporter, and many other roles. You can use Dragonite for whatever purpose you wish and it will succeed at it. This is why it should be S ranking.
Before you continue posting, Dragonite was just recently denied a promotion to A+ like VERY recently. With it being so soon after being denied a promotion from A to A+, you really think it is capable of making the huge jump to S Rank?!
Dragonite is a great pokemon but there is no way it should be in the same Rank as a Pokemon such as Aegislash which pretty much looked at the metagame and said "Come at me bro".
It has 80 Base Speed which is slow and has a reliance on Multiscale which means it needs Spin/Defog support more urgently than other things in S Rank.
It has 80 Base Speed which is slow and has a reliance on Multiscale which means it needs Spin/Defog support more urgently than other things in S Rank.
Saying Dragonite is better than Garchomp is something that's up for debate, but saying he's better in every way is just silly. Garchomp has better defenses without relying on Multiscale, as well as much more Speed and isn't weak to Stealth Rock, unlike Dragonite. Again, saying Dragonite is better overall is up to debate, but there are things that Garchomp does much better than Dragonite.
I agree with what you just said and understand. However lets look at what Garchomp has over Dragonite and consider the following.
1: Speed: while Garchomp is indeed faster, Dragonite is able to counter this due to extremespeed and ability to take very strong super effective hits with ease thanks to multiscale. Couple that with extremespeed, weakness policy, and dragon dance , making it faster in just one turn. So in this way, Dragonite is actually faster than Garchomp if you take this into account. Also factoring in multiscale, Dragonite only has a 2x weakness to ice! Dragon, Fairy, and Rock type attacks merely do 1x damage to Dragonite on the first hit. Neutral hits are treated as not very effective, Fire, Water, Bug, and fighting attacks are treated as 4x resisted, and Grass type moves do a pathetic 8x resisted damage to Dragonite Garchomps higher base speed is worthless compared to extremespeed, this amazing ability known as multiscale, better special attack, and ability to always get at least one dragon dance up. That's not all! Being a Dragon/Flying type, Dragonite is not affected by your Garchomp's Earthquake, and is immune to spikes and toxic spikes! Also Dragonite has a vastly superior movepool, compensating for its lack of Swords Dance. Face it. Garchomp is a great pokemon but its not even in the same league as Dragonite.
1: Speed: while Garchomp is indeed faster, Dragonite is able to counter this due to extremespeed and ability to take very strong super effective hits with ease thanks to multiscale. Couple that with extremespeed, weakness policy, and dragon dance , making it faster in just one turn. So in this way, Dragonite is actually faster than Garchomp if you take this into account. Also factoring in multiscale, Dragonite only has a 2x weakness to ice! Dragon, Fairy, and Rock type attacks merely do 1x damage to Dragonite on the first hit. Neutral hits are treated as not very effective, Fire, Water, Bug, and fighting attacks are treated as 4x resisted, and Grass type moves do a pathetic 8x resisted damage to Dragonite Garchomps higher base speed is worthless compared to extremespeed, this amazing ability known as multiscale, better special attack, and ability to always get at least one dragon dance up. That's not all! Being a Dragon/Flying type, Dragonite is not affected by your Garchomp's Earthquake, and is immune to spikes and toxic spikes! Also Dragonite has a vastly superior movepool, compensating for its lack of Swords Dance. Face it. Garchomp is a great pokemon but its not even in the same league as Dragonite.
The problem with this logic is that you're comparing these two in a 1v1 scenario against each other. You need to compare these more along the lines of all the A+ ranked mons and how they adapt to the meta overall.
Dragonite and Garchomp don't even do the same thing. The only thing they share is their Dragon typing and a few moves. They serve completely different roles.
Garchomp:
- Choice Scarf Revenge Killer
- Substitute + Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock Lead
- Bulky Dragon Dancer
- Choice Band attacker
- Parashuffler
greninja is fast and powerful but honestly it's just too frail to be S rank. it's so easy to make a Greninja weak team though because it can shit on anything but as hard as it is to switch in to, it's also hard too switch in just because it can't take a hit, takes full hazard damage, sand damage, LO damage which makes it not good at breaking Stall either. greninja is great though but it's fairly predictable, it's always the LO attacker with Hydro Pump, Extrasensory, Ice Beam then either Dark Pulse or U-Turn or rarely HP Fire/Grass Knot/Taunt. A+ for sure just for late-game cleaning against offense where their only hope of checking it usually is either keeping Azumarill healthy or saving Thundurus prankster T-Wave. it also beats evil dragonite
NOMINATING LANDORUS-T FOR A+ RANK bc the resulting convo will still be 10* better than this one.
jk, lando is bulky as hell and strong as hell, with an excellent move pool and great coverage. Intmidate makes it a great offensive pivot, and it also has access to SR. DISCUSS
It is also one of the few solid checks to Pokemon like Talonflame, Physical Aegislash, M-Charizard X and more thanks to intimidate. Landorus has crazy strong attack, and better than decent bulk. In fact, this things only flaw is its speed (and its type i guess), but its speed only acts as a set back against pokemon like Keldeo (faster pokemon with access to special attacking water/ice type moves).
jk, lando is bulky as hell and strong as hell, with an excellent move pool and great coverage. Intmidate makes it a great offensive pivot, and it also has access to SR. DISCUSS
It is also one of the few solid checks to Pokemon like Talonflame, Physical Aegislash, M-Charizard X and more thanks to intimidate. Landorus has crazy strong attack, and better than decent bulk. In fact, this things only flaw is its speed (and its type i guess), but its speed only acts as a set back against pokemon like Keldeo (faster pokemon with access to special attacking water/ice type moves).
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