Doubles Viability Rankings (C- Votes if u care lol)

[Stratos]

all right its been three days im trying to get this thread to be faster moving so im actually gonna close voting rn!!!

Tyranitar to A+ fuck no
Abomasnow to B yes
Darkrai to B yes
Liepard to C yes
Parasect to D yes
Jirachi to A no
Gallade to C yes
Trevenant to C yes
Reuniclus to C yes
Victini to C yes
Kyurem to C yes
Slowking to C yes
Cobalion to C no
Infernape to B no

results!!

Tyranitar to A+ no
Abomasnow to B yes
Darkrai to B yes
Liepard to C yes
Parasect to D yes
Jirachi to A yes
Gallade to C yes
Trevenant to C yes
Reuniclus to C yes
Victini to C yes
Kyurem to C yes
Slowking to C yes
Cobalion to C no
Infernape to B yes

TIME FOR NOMINATIONS!

Nominate major rank shifts, subrank placements for things that just shifted into A or B rank, or B- Pokemon.

 

[Laga]

Alright there's been a break from tier to tier nominations for a while now since we've obviously been focusing on +- rankings, and a lot of metagame trends have changed drastically. Therefore some mons in S and A rank are looking a lil weird compared to what you see the top tier dudes using atm.

First of all, the big one that I hope everyone agrees with by now

Heatran S rank -> A rank

Heatran was a huge thing from the beginning of XY up until SPL. By then, people realised that its Substitute set was way overrated. Ever since, there has also been a huge increase of popularity with common checks and counters to Heatran; Landorus-T, Terrakion, and Keldeo have all become more popular than a few months ago, and Rain as a whole is now accepted as a team archetype. If you didn't know, Heatran against rain is like Amoonguss against grass types; it just sits there and does nothing at all. Overall, Heatran is so much more mediocre than it used to be after trends shifted against its favour, and that is not what forms an S rank Pokemon.

Scrafty A- rank -> B rank

Scrafty is probably the Pokemon in Doubles now that takes the biggest fall when you transfer it from paper to practice. Basically, it looks good at a glance, but almost always disappoints you in a match. Due to the offensive nature of Doubles, Scrafty's terrible base attack stat is just not gonna cut it, being unable to do relevant neutral damage. In most cases, the Intimidate + Fake Out is pulled off better by Hitmontop because of Wide Guard and no weakness to Fighting, and the bulky assvest role is performed better by Conkeldurr, since it can deal proper damage and heal more HP back when using Drain Punch.

Keldeo B+ rank -> A Rank

I'm not sure how much of a boner I have for this thing yet, but its popularity accretion has been incredible the past month, and there are a lot of players who use it very well. I am only really nominating this because I know it has a large trend going for it, and also it's fast n strong + good offensive Kanga check. This should end A- imo

 

[Lolk]

I agree with Heatran and Keldeo but i am a bit iffy on Scrafty cause it is like the perfect blend of Hitmontop's and Conkeldurr's roles a (and it has Drain Punch too Laga :p)

Some things that deserve B- imo:

Latias: Why is this even B when Latios is so much better. It's only niches (Bulkier Dual Screens and Heal Pulse) are almost unseen in the current metagame. Why use your dragon slot for team support when we have monsters like Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, Latios, and Salamence to pick before it.

Goodra: It is in a similar boat as Latios in the sense that their are too many Dragons better than it in the meta. While deserving of B- (unlike Latias), the special bulk isn't worth losing a secondary STAB that Latios, Hydreigon, or Kyube pressure the tier with.

Infernape: Super frail and many other Fires or Fightings to choose first.

Saybleye: WoW is rediculously prepared for nowadays and Saybleye is so predictable it's not funny. It's definitely better than Goodra, Latias, and Infernape, but it is worse than most of the other B's, so I am being a little harsher to balance the rankings.

Landorus, Escavalier, and Tornadus also stick out as having lesser niches in the meta.

 

[Arcticblast]

Goodra: It is in a similar boat as Latios in the sense that their are too many Dragons better than it in the meta. While deserving of B- (unlike Latias), the special bulk isn't worth losing a secondary STAB that Latios, Hydreigon, or Kyube pressure the tier with.

I'd like to disagree with this, actually. LO Goodra is actually really good. I'll spare the details for now (read them here), but to sum it up it's just as powerful as Latios while having a nice amount of extra bulk, no Dark/Ghost weaknesses, and Fire Blast (this is huge). Speed is a bit of a concern, but when you give Zard Y a big fuck you just by existing, who needs Speed?

 

[Darkmalice]

We have a large B list. B- candidates that stand out to me:

Sableye. Contrary to what Lolk said, I actually feel this is the worse of the B ranked Pokemon, as it is very match-up dependent (it is horrible against most full-out special sweepers, being reliant on stuff like Swagger). Being one of the best answers to Mega Kang is not enough when said Pokemon can switch out to a Pokemon that has nothing to fear from Sableye. Not bad enough for C (prankster WoW is awesome), but definitely B-

Infernape

Goodra

I'd like to disagree with this, actually. LO Goodra is actually really good. I'll spare the details for now (read them here), but to sum it up it's just as powerful as Latios while having a nice amount of extra bulk, no Dark/Ghost weaknesses, and Fire Blast (this is huge). Speed is a bit of a concern, but when you give Zard Y a big fuck you just by existing, who needs Speed?

110 base special attack =/= 130 base special attack
Latios also fairs well against Mega Zard Y, outspeeding and 2HKOing with LO Psyshock or Psychic, and LO Pyshock deals more damage to Zard Y than how much Latios takes from Modest 252 SpA Overheat
And the Speed difference is a big concern, bigger than Fire Blast. Also, Latios is not the only competition, also Salamence, Hydreigon, and Kyurem-B.

Also, whilst it's great against many special attackers, it's fairs poorly against the commonly used physical Pokemon

Pinsir. It hits very hard with good speed, but it's multitude of weaknesses let it down and ruin its otherwise good bulk. The big factor that makes it B- is that it mandates a mega stone; I can use many other hard-hitters with good speed that don't use a mega stone, like Shyamin-S, Talonflame on the Flying-type side, Latios and Terrakion for general purpose hard-hitting Pokemon, even Deoxys-A can't get 2HKOed thanks to Sash. Compared to competition for the Mega Stone role of hard-hitter, Kang and Mawile don't die nearly as easily, Mega Zard has less weaknesses and spread (and those two weaknesses belong to Pinsir) and Lucario is far more versatile with a much better typing. Flying-STAB Feint is good, but I don't feel a Mega slot is warranted just for it.

I am expecting backlash from Laga

Abomasnow. It fully deserves the recently earned B rank, but it is quite reliant on TR, has some awful match-ups against very common Pokemon, and has difficulty against Wide Guard users both due to its main move being nuliffied and the fact that the two most common Wide Guard users hit it super-effectively. And it requires a Mega Stone.

Tornadus. For Defiant sets, the loss of item to use its best STAB really lets it down combined with its subpar bulk. Furthermore, it fails to beat Landorus-T even with the Defiant boost, as it cannot OHKO Landorus-T (+1 252 Atk Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 270-318 (84.3 - 99.3%)), and for the biggest insult, the main Lando-T set is Scarf which OHKOes Tornadus with Stone Edge. If Defiant doesn't get any used, I commonly find myself wishing I had another Pokemon in its place.
For Prankster sets, there are better Tailwind users thanks to their much better bulk and resists (they can set it up more than once), and rain sets aren't anything special let alone the fact that they're only worth using on full-blown rain teams and have major competition from the Thundurus forms

 

[Arcticblast]

On my phone so I'll just quote the entire post

We have a large B list. B- candidates that stand out to me:

Sableye. Contrary to what Lolk said, I actually feel this is the worse of the B ranked Pokemon, as it is very match-up dependent (it is horrible against most full-out special sweepers, being reliant on stuff like Swagger). Being one of the best answers to Mega Kang is not enough when said Pokemon can switch out to a Pokemon that has nothing to fear from Sableye. Not bad enough for C (prankster WoW is awesome), but definitely B-

Infernape

Goodra

110 base special attack =/= 130 base special attack
Latios also fairs well against Mega Zard Y, outspeeding and 2HKOing with LO Psyshock or Psychic, and LO Pyshock deals more damage to Zard Y than how much Latios takes from Modest 252 SpA Overheat
And the Speed difference is a big concern, bigger than Fire Blast. Also, Latios is not the only competition, also Salamence, Hydreigon, and Kyurem-B.

Also, whilst it's great against many special attackers, it's fairs poorly against the commonly used physical Pokemon

Pinsir. It hits very hard with good speed, but it's multitude of weaknesses let it down and ruin its otherwise good bulk. The big factor that makes it B- is that it mandates a mega stone; I can use many other hard-hitters with good speed that don't use a mega stone, like Shyamin-S, Talonflame on the Flying-type side, Latios and Terrakion for general purpose hard-hitting Pokemon, even Deoxys-A can't get 2HKOed thanks to Sash. Compared to competition for the Mega Stone role of hard-hitter, Kang and Mawile don't die nearly as easily, Mega Zard has less weaknesses and spread (and those two weaknesses belong to Pinsir) and Lucario is far more versatile with a much better typing. Flying-STAB Feint is good, but I don't feel a Mega slot is warranted just for it.

I am expecting backlash from Laga

Abomasnow. It fully deserves the recently earned B rank, but it is quite reliant on TR, has some awful match-ups against very common Pokemon, and has difficulty against Wide Guard users both due to its main move being nuliffied and the fact that the two most common Wide Guard users hit it super-effectively. And it requires a Mega Stone.

Tornadus. For Defiant sets, the loss of item to use its best STAB really lets it down combined with its subpar bulk. Furthermore, it fails to beat Landorus-T even with the Defiant boost, as it cannot OHKO Landorus-T (+1 252 Atk Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 270-318 (84.3 - 99.3%)), and for the biggest insult, the main Lando-T set is Scarf which OHKOes Tornadus with Stone Edge. If Defiant doesn't get any used, I commonly find myself wishing I had another Pokemon in its place.
For Prankster sets, there are better Tailwind users thanks to their much better bulk and resists (they can set it up more than once), and rain sets aren't anything special let alone the fact that they're only worth using on full-blown rain teams and have major competition from the Thundurus forms

Modest Goodra is actually only 9 points shy of Timid Latios, and has comparable physical bulk (80/80 vs 90/70). It's also able to run Thunderbolt or Sludge Bomb to deal considerable damage to Togekiss and Azumarill, which Latios can do but Hydreigon cannot. Hydreigon is also vulnerable to Mach Punch, is heavily threatened by Keldeo, and can't take repeated hits from Mega Charizard or Ludicolo. Both Latios and Hydreigon are vulnerable to Spore. I'm not saying it's necessarily better than Latios or Hydreigon, but I think what it has lets it distinguish itself from the two and provide enough benefits to be fit for B rank.

No comments on Salamence here because I've never seen it used particularly well in Smogon Doubles, but considering Salamence's relative lack of bulk I'd assume they play too differently to really compare.

 

[Audiosurfer]

i just wanted to say that celebi should be in e rank. why it's in any rank higher than that is beyond me. there are many better grass types and better psychic types, the metagame is insanely cruel to it (its typing couldn't be worse for it) and it lacks a good movepool (it doesn't even have psyshock for christ's sake). there's like zero real reason to use this, it's complete rubbish lol.

also i think ludicolo should be a. with fake out, good power and typing, and a very threatening attack combination coupled with swift swim, i think that ludicolo is definitely more dangerous to face than any of its fellow a- ranked pokemon, and it's pretty awesome so i'd like to see it go up to a rank instead of staying in a-. will respond to some other noms later but wanted to say this first.

 

[finally]

i just wanted to say that celebi should be in e rank. why it's in any rank higher than that is beyond me. there are many better grass types and better psychic types, the metagame is insanely cruel to it (its typing couldn't be worse for it) and it lacks a good movepool (it doesn't even have psyshock for christ's sake). there's like zero real reason to use this, it's complete rubbish lol.

also i think ludicolo should be a. with fake out, good power and typing, and a very threatening attack combination coupled with swift swim, i think that ludicolo is definitely more dangerous to face than any of its fellow a- ranked pokemon, and it's pretty awesome so i'd like to see it go up to a rank instead of staying in a-. will respond to some other noms later but wanted to say this first.

ur makin me cri
onions is actually ok. like in gen 4 ou how you use it in a celebitran core, you use onions for a fight/water/grass resist. yeh typing is ass and you get few switchin opportunities, but movepool and stats warrant above e rank imo
best set right now isnt tinkerbell, its probably 3 atks modest life orb just for all the celebi noobs :]
like usually you're gonna use gourgeist for fight/water/grass/kanga resist but celebi offers a way to actually hit back and instead of beating kanga it beats heatran with earth power.
still very niche i admit
i give celebi d+ :^)

edit: set im talking bout is giga drain/leaf storm, psychic, earth power, protect

 

[Audiosurfer]

ur makin me cri
onions is actually ok. like in gen 4 ou how you use it in a celebitran core, you use onions for a fight/water/grass resist. yeh typing is ass and you get few switchin opportunities, but movepool and stats warrant above e rank imo
best set right now isnt tinkerbell, its probably 3 atks modest life orb just for all the celebi noobs :]
like usually you're gonna use gourgeist for fight/water/grass/kanga resist but celebi offers a way to actually hit back and instead of beating kanga it beats heatran with earth power.
still very niche i admit
i give celebi d+ :^)

edit: set im talking bout is giga drain/leaf storm, psychic, earth power, protect

its stats arent good lol, and it gets maimed by so many common things. it movepool is garbage too so idk how it warrants a higher rank. if you really want a grass type, there are many beyond amoonguss and skymin with typings and moves that might actually become useful to you, like tangrowth and normal shaymin.

 

[Arcticblast]

its stats arent good lol

Friendly reminder that Jirachi has the exact same stats and is sitting pretty in A rank

I guess Celebi has a niche in getting past pretty much every common counter to an offensive Grass-type without relying on Air Slash (although it can't hit everything in one set) and has some useful support moves if the team needs them, so it's not like Blissey worthless.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Friendly reminder that Jirachi has the exact same stats and is sitting pretty in A rank

I guess Celebi has a niche in getting past pretty much every common counter to an offensive Grass-type without relying on Air Slash (although it can't hit everything in one set) and has some useful support moves if the team needs them, so it's not like Blissey worthless.

what useful support moves does it have? and how is that a good niche lol. unlike skymin and ludicolo it isnt offensively threatening so it doesn't make for a very good attacker. also, while jirachi has a good typing and access to a great support move, celebi has neither of those things going for it. base 100 stats all around aren't /bad/ as far as stats go but they're not good either, and celebi lacks the tools to set itself apart in a meaningful way.

 

[whissp]

Guys, I'm sorry if it has been already mentioned but too lazy to go through whole thread... Couldn't we specify whether a pokemon is mega or not? For example TTar is A rank, but what about Mega TTar, is he also A? Notable pokes that could use this clarification: Venusaur, Gyarados, Garchomp, Blaziken, Aerodactyl, Heracross, Scizor, Gardevoir, Obamasnow, Gengar, and future 3rd gen megas.

 

[Laga]

not only are almost all megas so far around the same viability as their non megas (the ones that are only good mega have unviable pre evos), but it also would make the rankings fairly crowded and unneat... Usually, the most viable (mega or normal) will be the version that decides the tier of the pokemon.

The best example, outside of makings rankings look aesthetically dumb, would be Charizard Y is S rank caliber, but despite that, it's unpredictability (could be X) makes Charizard as a whole S rank, not just Y at S rank and X at A rank.

 

[Electrolyte]

Jirachi's viability isn't because of its stats; it's because of its movepool (FOLLOW ME!!) and resistances. Its stats are just icing on the cake. For something that has the same stats yet barely a little bit of the movepool / resistances Jirachi does, E rank is probably best (hell, I wouldn't even mind if we just kept it off every list altogether, because it's not like a gimmick that we have to tell people not to use).

And yeah whissp that idea has been brought up before and shot down. There is no harm in doing such a thing but it's pretty low priority compared to what we are currently in the process of doing.

Goodra should be moved to B-. Instead of comparing it to Latios, which actually plays quite differently, compare it to something closer to its league- Hydreigon. If you want to talk movepool and power, Hydreigon definitely wins by a long shot, because it has both DMeteor and Fire Blast, and Tailwind as well and enough Speed to be useful. Even if Goodra is close, I wouldn't rank them in the same subtier.


I agree with all of the B- nominations made so far. I also think these can be added to the list:

Landorus. While I admire its sweeping potential, the physical Ground-type attackers far outclass it. There are few reasons to use Landorus instead of Landorus-T or Garchomp, since it doesn't have the useful bulk / resistances that the other Ground-types have. Coverage is its strongest suit, but we all know that coverage isn't worth much in the Doubles atmosphere, at least not as much as Intimidate or the string of resistances that Dragon-types have. The final nail in the coffin is the fact that running Landorus makes running Landorus-T illegal, and I know that almost everyone would rather pick the former when it comes up to it.

Mew. Mew has a few tricks up its sleeve but once you learn its set, it's not overly difficult to get past it. Weakness to Knock Off really kills it, and as a bulky wall it is far too outclassed by Cresselia. Doesn't have enough resistances either, and Psychic is pretty shit as a defensive typing. Access to some unique moves like Will-O-Wisp, Tailwind, Taunt, Sky Drop, and Transform are all really nice, but those are really niche and better spread across multiple members of the team instead of being put together into one slot. Transform is powerful but too hard to pull off and too risky to utilize reliably.

Weavile. Fast and frail is not too great when neither of your STAB attacks reach over 75 BP (not counting Knock Off's power boost) 125 Speed isn't even fast anymore; I mean we have behemoths like Mega Gengar, Mega Manectric, and even Deoxys-A. Ice Shard is clutch but Mamoswine is so much better for that role. Weavile is frail as shit, too; it always has to carry a Focus Sash because it just gets OHKOd by everything. Priority messes it up too, since the thing doesn't even get Sucker Punch. Physical Dark-type offense sucks unless your name is Bisharp and you have Defiant to fuck up Fighting-type Intimidate users.

 

[Lolk]

<@Lolk> does anyone have any more B- mons they want to nominate
<@Lolk> we need to get this ball rolling
<@Lolk> no? k

I am still OP so I am moving this on for Pwnemon :p

Potential drops to B-: (Post "Yes" if you want them to drop)

Sableye
Goodra
Infernape
Weavile
Landorus-I
Tornadus-I
Mew
Escavalier
Latias
Abomasnow
Pinsir

we will do the other rank-shift nominations next :>

 

[Arcticblast]

Sableye yes
Goodra no
Infernape yes
Weavile yes
Landorus yes
Tornadus yes
Mew yes
Escavalier yes
Latias yes
Abomasnow no
Pinsir yes

Edit: oh that's Thundurus-T, good thing my vote doesn't change

Edit2: gdi Lolk

 

[Lolk]

FUCK I MEANT TORNADUS

Also to put it in perspective, there are like 30 mons in B rank and kyle you think only 4 should be B- :O

 

[LightningLuxray]

Sableye yes
Goodra abstain (Can't decide @_@)
Infernape yes
Weavile no
Landorus-I yes
Tornadus-I LOVE YOU but yes
Mew no
Escavalier yes
Latias yes
Abomasnow no
Pinsir abstain (not enough experience)

 

[Bughouse]

Sableye yes
Goodra yes
Infernape yes
Weavile yes
Landorus-I yes
Tornadus-I yes
Mew no
Escavalier no
Latias yes
Abomasnow abstain, never used and rarely seen.
Pinsir no

 

[Laga]

Sableye yes
Goodra yes
Infernape yes
Weavile no
Landorus-I yes
Tornadus-I yes
Mew yes
Escavalier no
Latias yes
Abomasnow yes
Pinsir no

 

[Anty]

Sableye- Yes
Goodra- Yes, even if a wild goodra appeared
Infernape- Yes
Weavile- No, works much better in practise imo, ice typing is offensively helpful
Landorus-I- No, after using this a lot of times it definately isnt b-. It has the strength and the coverage to easily 2hko/ohko the meta and base 101 speed is very nice
Tornadus-I- Yes
Mew- Yes
Escavalier - No, very tanky and punches wholes with trick room or acts as a tr check
Latias- Yes
Abomasnow- No, hail room is a threat
Pinsir- abstain, havent used yet/played it once. No, after using it a lot, it is very strong and feint is so helpful and does damage

Sorry for the random bolds.

 

[Electrolyte]

Sableye - Yes
Goodra - Yes
Infernape - Yes
Weavile - Yes
Landorus-I - Yes
Tornadus-I - Yes
Mew - Yes
Escavalier - No
Latias - Yes
Abomasnow - No
Pinsir - Yes

Literally, yes to everything except Escavalier (look at Lolk's own Rain team; that shit is a p big threat) and Abomasnow (TR Hail is super legit, look at KyleCole's Hail Buddies)

 

[Idyll]

Sableye - Yes
Goodra - Yes
Infernape - Yes
Weavile - Yes
Landorus-I - Yes
Tornadus-I - No
Mew - Yes
Escavalier - No
Latias - Yes
Abomasnow - No
Pinsir - Yes