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horyzhnz, I see what you're saying. I was hasty in my statements, and I did not see the previous points about Furfrou. I apologize for the rather rude and nasty things I've said. However, I will still defend my case with Furfrou, as despite previous comments, I still see it being quite viable, or at least have a niche, in RU.

For Set Suggestions, I can provide three of the top of my head:


Furfrou @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant/Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Return
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn/Wild Charge

The set requires a good amount of prediction, and preferably some stealth rock support as well. The point is to set up a Cotton Guard or two, and dish out damage when Weakness Policy is activated. As stated before, Furfrou can easily survive Hitmonlee's High Jump Kick, which activated its Weakness Policy, and OHKO's it with its now +2 return. (+2 252+ Atk Furfrou Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 438-516 (181.7 - 214.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Sucker Punch hits attacking ghosts and Psychic types super effectively, and gives it a priority move that make up for lack of recovery. The last slot is up to you for coverage. Personally, I like U-Turn to help scout out the opponents team and give a safe switch in to another pokemon.

Furfrou @ Assault Vest
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP (or 252 Spe) / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest/Timid Nature
- Charge Beam
- Echoed Voice
- Dark Pulse
- Substitute/Surf

Fur Coat already gives you a great buff to your defenses, an added assault vest can skyrocket Furfrou's survivablility. While your opponent is trying to knock off hits on you, Furfrou can blast a few charge beams to raise its special attack, and subsequently Spam Echoed Voice for STAB and Dark Pulse for Coverage. Note that with HP investment and Assault vest, Furfrou can survive two hits from Delphox's Psychic (252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Furfrou: 129-152 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) and Furfrou with just two boosts can hit 2HKO with Dark Pulse (+2 252+ SpA Furfrou Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 244-288 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Against Doublade, Furfrou can take a +2 Sacred Sword (+2 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 289-341 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) while having a chance to OHKO an Eviolite Doublade, given a +2 boost from Charge Beam (+2 252+ SpA Furfrou Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 286-338 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO). Substitute helps Furfrou survive longer, and gain more Charge Beam boosts, or you could use Surf to gain extra coverage.


Furfrou @ Choice Band
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe (or 252 Atk/252 Hp/ 4 Spe depending on whether you want the speed to hit faster, or the HP to survive longer. personally, I prefer the speed.)
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Retaliate
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Wild Charge

This set is for revenge killing your fallen comrades. Maximum investment into Attack along with the Choice Band ensures Retaliate will do massive damage. U-Turn can make Furfrou used as a hard hitting lead pokemon, or get it out of unsavory situations. On the debate between Furfrou vs. Stoutland when it comes to revenge killing, the one thing Furfrou has that Stoutland doesnt is Sucker Punch, which super-effectively hits ghost types Stoutland wouldn't be able to be put up against.

So with all that, I do think Furfrou can actually be used much more effectively than people would initially think. It doesn't necessarily have to be Wish reliant, as a tank/wall set isn't its only option. Like every pokemon, it needs support and synergy with its team, but that's not all that hard to do. Any ghost type can be used to switch in to fighting type moves and eliminate a large threat Furfrou may face.

Anyway, with all that, I rest my case (for the most part). I do eagerly await a healthy debate about Furfrou
 
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Martin

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horyzhnz, I see what you're saying. I was hasty in my statements, and I did not see the previous points about Furfrou. I apologize for the rather rude and nasty things I've said. However, I will still defend my case with Furfrou, as despite previous comments, I still see it being quite viable, or at least have a niche, in RU.

For Set Suggestions, I can provide three of the top of my head:


Furfrou @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant/Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Return
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn/Wild Charge

The set requires a good amount of prediction, and preferably some stealth rock support as well. The point is to set up a Cotton Guard or two, and dish out damage when Weakness Policy is activated. As stated before, Furfrou can easily survive Hitmonlee's High Jump Kick, which activated its Weakness Policy, and OHKO's it with its now +2 return. (+2 252+ Atk Furfrou Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 438-516 (181.7 - 214.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Sucker Punch hits attacking ghosts and Psychic types super effectively, and gives it a priority move that make up for lack of recovery. The last slot is up to you for coverage. Personally, I like U-Turn to help scout out the opponents team and give a safe switch in to another pokemon.

Furfrou @ Assault Vest
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP (or 252 Spe) / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest/Timid Nature
- Charge Beam
- Echoed Voice
- Dark Pulse
- Substitute/Surf

Fur Coat already gives you a great buff to your defenses, an added assault vest can skyrocket Furfrou's survivablility. While your opponent is trying to knock off hits on you, Furfrou can blast a few charge beams to raise its special attack, and subsequently Spam Echoed Voice for STAB and Dark Pulse for Coverage. Note that with HP investment and Assault vest, Furfrou can survive two hits from Delphox's Psychic (252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Furfrou: 129-152 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) and Furfrou with just two boosts can hit 2HKO with Dark Pulse (+2 252+ SpA Furfrou Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 244-288 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Against Doublade, Furfrou can take a +2 Sacred Sword (+2 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 289-341 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) while having a chance to OHKO an Eviolite Doublade, given a +2 boost from Charge Beam (+2 252+ SpA Furfrou Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 286-338 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO). Substitute helps Furfrou survive longer, and gain more Charge Beam boosts, or you could use Surf to gain extra coverage.


Furfrou @ Choice Band
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe (or 252 Atk/252 Hp/ 4 Spe depending on whether you want the speed to hit faster, or the HP to survive longer. personally, I prefer the speed.)
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Retaliate
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Wild Charge

This set is for revenge killing your fallen comrades. Maximum investment into Attack along with the Choice Band ensures Retaliate will do massive damage. U-Turn can make Furfrou used as a hard hitting lead pokemon, or get it out of unsavory situations. On the debate between Furfrou vs. Stoutland when it comes to revenge killing, the one thing Furfrou has that Stoutland doesnt is Sucker Punch, which super-effectively hits ghost types Stoutland wouldn't be able to be put up against.

So with all that, I do think Furfrou can actually be used much more effectively than people would initially think. It doesn't necessarily have to be Wish reliant, as a tank/wall set isn't its only option. Like every pokemon, it needs support and synergy with its team, but that's not all that hard to do. Any ghost type can be used to switch in to fighting type moves and eliminate a large threat Furfrou may face.

Anyway, with all that, I rest my case (for the most part). I do eagerly await a healthy debate about Furfrou
to be completely honest, those sets are all really not very good. The thing about Furfrou is that it is really weak, making any attempt at an offensive set really pointless. Why you're trying to design a special attacking set idk as it's got a really low SpA stat, and the lack of a reliable STAB on the banded set basically shows how bad that is. Why you're running WP on a pokemon with one weakness - and one that it really can't handle at that - i honestly don't know. Cotton Guard is competitively useless as it doesn't really help stuff that much dispite the +3 boost when it isn't baton passing it off (a move which it doesn't even get to my knowledge). You have given three offensive sets for a piss-weak pokemon and you're using Fur Coat as the only basis for your argument, and that really isn't a saving grace for Furfrou tbh. It isn't fast enough to realistically prevent Fighting-types like Hitmonlee from dominating it, it has bad offensive stats, and it has poor defenses - even with Fur Coat (which, just to patch it up for anyone unsure, doesn't actually double the stat (which is a common misconception), but rather it halves the damage taken on physical moves, which are two completely different things) Tbh, the only thing I can see Furfrou KOing reliably is Mantine/Pelliper with Wild Charge: and that says a lot.
 
horyzhnz, I see what you're saying. I was hasty in my statements, and I did not see the previous points about Furfrou. I apologize for the rather rude and nasty things I've said. However, I will still defend my case with Furfrou, as despite previous comments, I still see it being quite viable, or at least have a niche, in RU.

For Set Suggestions, I can provide three of the top of my head:


Furfrou @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant/Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Return
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn/Wild Charge

The set requires a good amount of prediction, and preferably some stealth rock support as well. The point is to set up a Cotton Guard or two, and dish out damage when Weakness Policy is activated. As stated before, Furfrou can easily survive Hitmonlee's High Jump Kick, which activated its Weakness Policy, and OHKO's it with its now +2 return. (+2 252+ Atk Furfrou Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 438-516 (181.7 - 214.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Sucker Punch hits attacking ghosts and Psychic types super effectively, and gives it a priority move that make up for lack of recovery. The last slot is up to you for coverage. Personally, I like U-Turn to help scout out the opponents team and give a safe switch in to another pokemon.

Furfrou @ Assault Vest
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP (or 252 Spe) / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest/Timid Nature
- Charge Beam
- Echoed Voice
- Dark Pulse
- Substitute/Surf

Fur Coat already gives you a great buff to your defenses, an added assault vest can skyrocket Furfrou's survivablility. While your opponent is trying to knock off hits on you, Furfrou can blast a few charge beams to raise its special attack, and subsequently Spam Echoed Voice for STAB and Dark Pulse for Coverage. Note that with HP investment and Assault vest, Furfrou can survive two hits from Delphox's Psychic (252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Furfrou: 129-152 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) and Furfrou with just two boosts can hit 2HKO with Dark Pulse (+2 252+ SpA Furfrou Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 244-288 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Against Doublade, Furfrou can take a +2 Sacred Sword (+2 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 289-341 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) while having a chance to OHKO an Eviolite Doublade, given a +2 boost from Charge Beam (+2 252+ SpA Furfrou Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 286-338 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO). Substitute helps Furfrou survive longer, and gain more Charge Beam boosts, or you could use Surf to gain extra coverage.


Furfrou @ Choice Band
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe (or 252 Atk/252 Hp/ 4 Spe depending on whether you want the speed to hit faster, or the HP to survive longer. personally, I prefer the speed.)
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Retaliate
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Wild Charge

This set is for revenge killing your fallen comrades. Maximum investment into Attack along with the Choice Band ensures Retaliate will do massive damage. U-Turn can make Furfrou used as a hard hitting lead pokemon, or get it out of unsavory situations. On the debate between Furfrou vs. Stoutland when it comes to revenge killing, the one thing Furfrou has that Stoutland doesnt is Sucker Punch, which super-effectively hits ghost types Stoutland wouldn't be able to be put up against.

So with all that, I do think Furfrou can actually be used much more effectively than people would initially think. It doesn't necessarily have to be Wish reliant, as a tank/wall set isn't its only option. Like every pokemon, it needs support and synergy with its team, but that's not all that hard to do. Any ghost type can be used to switch in to fighting type moves and eliminate a large threat Furfrou may face.

Anyway, with all that, I rest my case (for the most part). I do eagerly await a healthy debate about Furfrou
Ok then...

I thought you suggested Furfrou as a wall, but it seems a Pokemon with base 80 Attack is seemingly good enough for all out offensive sets. The first one can't take most Special hits without being hit extremely hard and if it runs max speed to snipe these, it won't be able to use Cotton Guard effectively (if at all) due the lack of defensive investment, on top of being weak, even at +2. The second set looks like a special set with an Assault Vest slapped on (even more likely due Substitute being present on the set. Molk would be proud ;) ) and if you assume you get to +2 every time, then good luck getting there, as Furfrou can't take Delphox and others on after merely taking one round of SR damage. Even if you do get to +2, you won't make use of the boosts well, cause you needed the defensive investment to take the special hits (barely) to get the boosts. If you run max speed, congratulations. You now lose to all relevant Special Attackers if you try to tank their hits and lose to some of them (Delphox, Jolteon, Heliolisk) regardless AND can't get to +2. And when you need to get to +2 to get a CHANCE of OHKOing among the most specially frail Pokemon in the tier with a Super Effective hit, I think you suffer from the same issue from the previous set (being weak af, more so in this case). And the last set has it's issues too. On top of the usual (not being able to scare any walls due being weak af), it suffers from a lack of reliable STAB, coverage issues and so on. I see you are also using Sucker Punch on a CHOICED set, letting literally anything with a set up move do so. Finally, Stoutland is actually more useful, lol, as it can actually HURT things with it's base 110 Attack and access to Superpower, the elemental fangs, Crunch and using an actual useful STAB in Return.

These sets warrant even LESS use then a defensive set, as base 80 Attack is really weak. I might not be QC, so take all of this with a grain of salt, but I have very little doubt that they have similar issues with these sets and find it very unappealing.

EDIT: Thinking about it now, how about you show replays of it in action on the ladder? The ladder sucks, but it is fairly useful as proof for a pokemon's viability IF the replay is against someone around like top 50 (or 100 even, any lower the ladder gets shitty). All I see you doing is posting replays from it (in an other meta) or post...questionable sets. A little backing in replays might help your case better, if at all.
 
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EonX

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Ok, talked with Molk late last night on IRC about a couple of the Pokemon we were still having questions with:

Lilligant: This one's got the green light. Not nearly as good as BW, but it's still got enough going for it to get an analysis. Tagging Water Drone as he was the one wanting to do it if it was deemed viable enough.
Articuno: Ultimately, we decided this one wasn't good enough atm. A terrible defensive typing p. much dooms the SpDef set when there's options such as Aromatisse, Meloetta, Registeel, and Slowking for special walls. Any offensive set really struggles to strike a fine balance between power and bulk while also having a hard time setting itself apart from Yanmega and Moltres.

Also updated the OP to reflect the completion of Rotom-C and Spiritomb. As always, if there's errors / inaccuracies, then let me know. Keep up the good work, guys!
 
Ok, so I'll try to attempt to completely end the whole Furfrou discussion.
horyzhnz, I see what you're saying. I was hasty in my statements, and I did not see the previous points about Furfrou. I apologize for the rather rude and nasty things I've said. However, I will still defend my case with Furfrou, as despite previous comments, I still see it being quite viable, or at least have a niche, in RU.

For Set Suggestions, I can provide three of the top of my head:


Furfrou @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant/Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Return
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn/Wild Charge

The set requires a good amount of prediction, and preferably some stealth rock support as well. The point is to set up a Cotton Guard or two, and dish out damage when Weakness Policy is activated. As stated before, Furfrou can easily survive Hitmonlee's High Jump Kick, which activated its Weakness Policy, and OHKO's it with its now +2 return. (+2 252+ Atk Furfrou Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 438-516 (181.7 - 214.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Sucker Punch hits attacking ghosts and Psychic types super effectively, and gives it a priority move that make up for lack of recovery. The last slot is up to you for coverage. Personally, I like U-Turn to help scout out the opponents team and give a safe switch in to another pokemon.
Taunt, not an uncommon move, easily shuts this set down completely and pretty much any Ghost-type, as well. Weakness Policy with only one weakness is not very good at all, this is what falls underneath a 'bad lure'. It can just as easily Thunder Wave to shut down Hitmonlee, or you can merely switch to a better check / counter such as Doublade or Moltres. Cotton Guard is very gimmicky and exploitable by Special Attackers, along with Taunt, as previously mentioned. Return isn't that strong coming off of 80 Attack only. Sucker Punch is literally so easy to play around on Pokemon such as Furfrou (Defensive Pokemon and such). U-turn is neat and all, but it's still piss-poor weak (and it removes Weakness Policy boosts, should you attain any). Wild Charge makes it even easier to wear down, which is not a good thing, it doesn't even gain any additional coverage, really. And, honestly, no intelligent player will allow you to set up. I'll try to run this down for you:
  • Furfrou lacks reliable recovery, making it not a great Defensive Pokemon.
  • Horrid defensive typing, with 0 resistances whatsoever.
  • Furfrou is piss-poor weak and lacks any Special Defense to really use.
  • Furfrou is outclassed offensively by: bulky – Escavalier, Doublade, fast – Zoroark, Exploud, mix – Braviary, Mega Banette.
  • Furfrou is outclassed defensively by: Normal-types – Meloetta, Pokemon w/ reliable recovery: Aromatisse, Alomomola, Cresselia, Amoonguss, Slowking, etc, Pokemon w/o reliable recovery: Rhyperior, Drapion, Druddigon, Registeel, etc.
Every single one of the Pokemon has a reason to be used with or without some flaws, so let me spell it all out:
  • Escavalier: Great typing, strong w/ Choice Band or Assault Vest, powerful STAB in Megahorn, pretty good stats.
  • Doublade: Great typing, can reliably boost, priority, actual movepool, high Defense as well (literally only needs 252 HP / 56 Def to be bulkier than 252 / 252+ Furfrou, and I'm sure someone out there has tested bulkier Doublade sets, so there's that)
  • Zoroark: Illusion is cool, strong priority, Knock Off, large movepool, super fast.
  • Exploud: Boomburst lol
  • Braviary: Quite versatile, nice typing, Defiant, strong STAB moves, Roost
  • Mega Banette: Prankster, sky-high Attack, again, priority.
  • Meloetta: Super high SpD and not too shabby Defense, cool typing, offensive process, not too slow
  • Aromatisse: Great typing, Moonblast is reliable and strong, Wish and Aromatherapy, wide movepool
  • Alomomola: Wish, cool typing, Scald, Regenerator, not even that much less bulky than Furfrou
  • Cresselia: Moonlight, Calm Mind sets can be used, Dual Screens, Lunar Dance is cool, high bulk
  • Amoonguss: Regenerator, Spore, great typing, Stun Spore, Giga Drain, Foul Play is cool
  • Slowking: Regenerator, pulls off AV well, great movepool, great typing, Scald is amazing
  • Rhyperior: Stealth Rock, Solid Rock, high Attack, high Defenses as well
  • Drapion: Cool AV user, solid stats, solid typing, STAB Knock Off
  • Registeel: Great typing, colossal Defenses, Stealth Rock is always useful, Iron Head makes it not completely set up on.


There is probably stuff I missed, but w/e. Anyways, can we please drop Furfrou now? Molk rejected it, along with everyone bar like two people, it's not happening.
 
Quick thing killbob234, you can't use Substitute + Assault Vest. This is because you can only use attacking moves if you have Assault Vest equipped :)
Crap, didn't catch that while writing, thanks.

As for replays, well, I can give only one notable play with me using Furfrou in RU
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-140051792

I see what you guys are saying, and I guess I concede my point. I must ask though, does smogon do pokemon analysis for NU tier? I might have overlooked it but the lowest tier I found was RU. If NU does do analysis I would still like to do one with Furfrou, because I know for a fact it has use in NU (only by my experience using it, of course, so I guess that's not really a fact is it?).

All in all, I'm sorry I caused such a ruckus, I hope you can forgive a newb to the Smogon forums.
 
Crap, didn't catch that while writing, thanks.

As for replays, well, I can give only one notable play with me using Furfrou in RU
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-140051792

I see what you guys are saying, and I guess I concede my point. I must ask though, does smogon do pokemon analysis for NU tier? I might have overlooked it but the lowest tier I found was RU. If NU does do analysis I would still like to do one with Furfrou, because I know for a fact it has use in NU (only by my experience using it, of course, so I guess that's not really a fact is it?).

All in all, I'm sorry I caused such a ruckus, I hope you can forgive a newb to the Smogon forums.
Yes, although NU analyses will not be operated until August or so, as it's not an official tier.
 
Alright, I should probably lurk more until then haha

It really was my ignorance of RU that started all this, I'm more used to NU and VGC, so I guess I really didn't catch on to the pokemon that outclass Furfrou in RU

Anyway, thanks for understanding
 
Can I take cryogonal?
It was recently added to viability rankings and has a small chance of beating Doublade
if he predicts the switch (252 SpA Life Orb Cryogonal Hidden Power Ground vs. 208 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 161-192 (51.7 - 61.7%), he can come in only one time to spinblock) and has no problems with the other Spinblockers as they are specially based and 2HKOd by Freeze Dry.
Its pretty fast and has decent special bulk but a lot of flaws like the jynx level physical bulk and awful typing and I'll make sure to highlight why its niche
 

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