np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Ilickchairs]

I don't think the idea that Aegislash is only good or unpredictable in the hands of a good player is a valid argument against its ban. Like, shouldn't suspects and bans be based entirely around the performance of the Pokemon at high level play? Certain shitmons like Darmanitan can crush the lower ladder but it doesn't make them suspect-worthy or even viable.

 

[MrPOKem0n]

Might as well ban Protect then with that 50/50 mentality.
Seriously, it's like people just stopped running effective ways to check it.
People just want it gone, that's all.

That argument is pretty bad because of the fact that Protect doesn't revert the Pokemon to a defensive monster while also making your attack stat drop tremendous with contact. I do see what you are trying to say but making bold statements like that doesn't make the situation better

 

[Jukain]

1825+ players are not all 'good players'. The ladder means absolutely nothing.

Also brokenness is not the only component of a ban: brokenness, unhealthyness, and uncompetitiveness are all pieces of the puzzle. You can have one of these and be banworthy.

Is it really aegislash who causes excessive 50/50s anything with a strong suckerpunch can cause a 50/50 like mega maw or bisharp. Volturn can cause 50s as often the opponent has to guess whether the opponent will voltswitch or go for the appropriate move. For example heatran is facing a diggersby they can switch into a flying poke like skarm or Lando but the threat of them or predict the u-turn and stay in either way both players our in 50/50 situation that causes issues. Pokemon has a ton of 50/50's as players often face the threat of something setting up like dd zard and can stay in with bisharp to hit it hard on the predicted dd or lose to a flareblitz. Prediction is needed in a game of pokemon if a few mons need to be predicted more than others due to move pool or threat of setup or ability to volt turn then we as players make what we think our the right plays and live with the consequences we can't just eliminate prediction from the game or ease it by banning certain pokes we need to play the game and continue on out day. If you do not like 50/50s or annoying hax pokemon is not the game for u.

fwiw Mega Mawile is getting a suspect test (confirmed) so I wouldn't use that as a major basis for comparison.

I never said I was anti-50/50s. I am against the excessive 50/50s that literally define this current metagame. Aegislash's King's Shield, unpredictability, and ability to severely cripple many possible switch-ins with different choices of move is unique and causes far more 50/50s than any other Pokemon.

The thing with saying 'just prepare for Aegislash' is that it's really not that simple. There are so many other things I can afford to make a team weak to but handle with shaky checks w/e, but Aegi is too much of a force that it WILL come in on something with its godly typing/bulk and force me to sac if I don't have any direct responses for it. Teams without solid Aegi responses are bad and responses are limited so like Laurel said that often means going back to square one.

 

[ExperimentOne]

The argument of "it is unpredictable because it can run more than one set" is honestly dumb. Why aren't we suspect testing Charizard then? Same deal, I see him come in: is it charizard X or Y? Do I keep my electric type in and throw a Thunderbolt praying for Y or switch out to my special wall? If it is charizard X is it bulky DD? Fast DD? Bulky WoW?
Making a mistake on any of these costos you the game. I have swept many teams by bluffing Charizard Y and Suprise DDancing for the win.
What I have read here is essentially "its too hard for me to think about it. I just want to play a rock/paper/scissors game without the unpredictable element and use any crappy poke and win"
Seriously Talonflame is waaaaay more unhealthy for a diverse meta if that is your argument

 

[Salemance]

I am very torn on this one as a whole. As many have said, this is our first true test, as compared to the others, there is no clear answer (even if Deo-S's first test was clear no when it was the wrong choice for people in hindsight) and can be said to be a little split.

Aegi can be managed fairly well as you are forced to factor this thing into consideration. Yet that's one reason seeing it go could hve such a massive domino effect. Pinsir would start Running Close Combat as it no longer has to worry bout Aegislash hard blocking it, making it reliably 2hKO Skarmory. Terrakion could afford to spam its STABs a bit better as its only real worry is the mighty Golurk. The fact that literally one Pokémon itself could do all this mass chaos is something to say one may not be comfortable in doing as it would be like trying to adapt like the start of the meta all over again as old options can be new again (like it might be very possible to see the resurgence of some Scizor BP spam).

I mean, I myself am torn as I can see why its banning is being considered, sad we couldn't get something else suspected first, and yet am sorta hoping to see it go so we can see new life be breathed into the meta as a whole, even if we got a small gasp after the departure of the alien twins (again).

So if I do end up getting requirement, I'd be very tempted to vote ban just cause of the options one could see used with Aegi gone. Doesn't mean he may deserve going, but ya never know.

 

[MrPOKem0n]

The argument of "it is unpredictable because it can run more than one set" is honestly dumb. Why aren't we suspect testing Charizard then? Same deal, I see him come in: is it charizard X or Y? Do I keep my electric type in and throw a Thunderbolt praying for Y or switch out to my special wall? If it is charizard X is it bulky DD? Fast DD? Bulky WoW?
Making a mistake on any of these costos you the game. I have swept many teams by bluffing Charizard Y and Suprise DDancing for the win.
What I have read here is essentially "its too hard for me to think about it. I just want to play a rock/paper/scissors game without the unpredictable element and use any crappy poke and win"
Seriously Talonflame is waaaaay more unhealthy for a diverse meta if that is your argument

Trust me, Charizard is gonna be suspected. It is only a matter of time.

 

[Subject 18]

Might as well ban Protect then with that 50/50 mentality.
People just want it gone, that's all.

Protect doesn't punish physical attacker by dropping their physical attacks by two stages when they hit it. It's not the same thing. If my Terrakion Close Combat's a Heatran as he Protects, nothing really happened because at worst I locked myself into Close Combat. While if I Fire Punch against Aegislash as it King's Shields, my attacker is now considerably weaker and can't take it out. Which allows Aegislash to continue spamming Shadow Ball. The consequences of attacking on King's Shield vs Protect are much higher. Why is this a comparison?

Seriously, it's like people just stopped running effective ways to check it.

You're telling me what all this time that tour players still haven't figured out how to deal with it, but you have? Please by all means, enlighten us.

 

[Karxrida]

Protect doesn't punish physical attacker by dropping their physical attacks by two stages when they hit it. It's not the same thing. If my Terrakion Close Combat's a Heatran as he Protects, nothing really happened because at worst I locked myself into Close Combat. While if I Fire Punch against Aegislash as it King's Shields, my attacker is now considerably weaker and can't take it out. Which allows Aegislash to continue spamming Shadow Ball. The consequences of attacking on King's Shield vs Protect are much higher. Why is this a comparison?



You're telling me what all this time that players like Dice, Bloo, CrashinBoomBang, FLCL, Gr8astard, and CTC haven't figured out how to deal with it, but you have? Please by all means, enlighten us.

Bisharp checks all variants that aren't speed creeping. If they are speed creeping they're running +Speed natures instead of +SpA and aren't running bulk, making them easier to handle.

 

[Vivmeister10]

Because a smart player isn't trying to make contact with Aegislash.....
The drawback of only being protected by damage is the comparison to Protect, which defends against everything in return.
My point stands. No one had a problem with this a few months ago at all and now we all want to cry foul.

 

[Alphanex20]

Interesting, I honestly never thought the blade would ever see the suspect test...but I digress.
It does have a LOT of potential sets, not to mention amazing stats and a borderline broken ability. You may argue that there are checks/counters to each set, but not to all of them. Granted, I have my out to it in the form of bulky MScizor (none can 3HKO it bar LO and all die to +2 Knock off in shield, +0 in blade) and a few chase checks like heliolisk (shadow sneak immunity? yes please!) and WallTran w?/Roar (SubToxic cannot touch it). However, that was just how my team happened to be built, and frankly some random Aegislash sets give me headaches and might have flattened me if the players weren't so predictable (they were on WiFi and frankly not that good).

I don't think the idea that Aegislash is only good or unpredictable in the hands of a good player is a valid argument against its ban. Like, shouldn't suspects and bans be based entirely around the performance of the Pokemon at high level play? Certain shitmons like Darmanitan can crush the lower ladder but it doesn't make them suspect-worthy or even viable.

Truer words hath never been spoken, I have heard people complain about talonflame again and again because they cannot use X pokemon. Frankly, Aegislash initially and still does make certain pokes not viable just by its existence like Talonflame does (for example, it makes starmie worthless as a spinner, and talonflame makes all but a few fighting/grass types pointless as sweepers). For talonflame it isn't that bad since, while it can use more than one set, they are all the same basic thing--hit stuff with physical attacks. and its type coverage is easily walled by Rotom-W, TTar (mind CB U-Turns), Heatran, or any rock type. Aegi, on the other hand can attack from either side or even both along with being defensive or offensive, something talonflame can never be (horrendous bulk and typing for a wall).

Should it be banned? I really cannot say for sure, myself. However I can say that seeing it on the suspect test is not something that surprises me, and seeing it go would not make me shed any tears.

 

[SansNickel]

So everyone is saying that Aegislash has plenty of checks here and there. True.
So let's look at some things that potentially can switch into it and threaten it back.

Based off of 1825 June Usage Stats:

Hide

4. Heatran
5. Scizor
6. Bisharp
8. Tyranitar
11. Landorus
15. Excadrill
16. Garchomp
17. Landorus-Therian
24. Greninja
25. Gyarados
29. Gliscor
31. Mamoswine
33. Zapdos
34. Mandibuzz
40. Amoonguss
43. Conkeldurr
50. Hippowdon

Oh look, so many checks and revenge killers and whatnot. But why?
1. Aegislash

This thing is on more than a quarter of all teams... that's how easily it fits.

There are so many "checks" to it. It has very common weaknesses. The metagame threatens it a lot.
And it's still #1 in usage by a longshot? That's how good it is.

Take a look at Jirachi for example.
106. Jirachi

Very very similar weaknesses and resistances. Stats are definitely above average for OU. This thing was S-rank last generation. And look, people are scared to use it.

Arguments? Steel nerf, Dark Buff, not good in this meta due to common weaknesses.

The difference between these two pokemon should tell you more than enough about how good Aegislash really is. Despite all these things, it's #1 in usage?

 

[Turducken64]

There are a lot of decent counters aegis that AJ has mentioned as well as plethora of checks. I beat aegi without iron head with a sylveon once. Literally anything with protect can hurt aegi as it can force him into his vulnerable blade form and u can either use a support move most pokemon with protect have a support move predicting a king shield or attack. Protect also has advantage of scouting the set. The only issue with protect is stance dance but stance dance aegis is often kept in the back until late game so u can often guess by how the opponent is playing it.
Aegis can be beaten rather easily and I'm worried banning it will shift the meta towards offense or hyper offenseas now pinsir can wreck skarm and terrakion can run a sub sd set that destroys stall. Balance will now have issues as aegi can preform so many roles at once and will be hard pressed to find any breathing room once mega Cham and mega Hera are free to crush souls lets keep aegislash to not ruin stall and keep all playstyles viable instead of tipping the balance of the meta one way or another.
Let's not ban aegi and reset the meta right before The changes ORAS brings. In four and half months the meta will just be starting to settle once aegi and subsequent pokemon broken because of the loss of aegi are gone.

 

[Alphanex20]

So everyone is saying that Aegislash has plenty of checks here and there. True.
So let's look at some things that potentially can switch into it and threaten it back.

Based off of 1825 June Usage Stats:

Hide

4. Heatran
5. Scizor
6. Bisharp
8. Tyranitar
11. Landorus
15. Excadrill
16. Garchomp
17. Landorus-Therian
24. Greninja
25. Gyarados
29. Gliscor
31. Mamoswine
33. Zapdos
34. Mandibuzz
40. Amoonguss
43. Conkeldurr
50. Hippowdon

Oh look, so many checks and revenge killers and whatnot. But why?
1. Aegislash

This thing is on more than a quarter of all teams... that's how easily it fits.

There are so many "checks" to it. It has very common weaknesses. The metagame threatens it a lot.
And it's still #1 in usage by a longshot? That's how good it is.

Take a look at Jirachi for example.
106. Jirachi

Very very similar weaknesses and resistances. Stats are definitely above average for OU. This thing was S-rank last generation. And look, people are scared to use it.

Arguments? Steel nerf, Dark Buff, not good in this meta due to common weaknesses.

The difference between these two pokemon should tell you more than enough about how good Aegislash really is.

While that was far from the only nerf Jirachi had, your point makes sense, and honestly I think they nerfed steel BECAUSE of Aegislash.

 

[Yayz]

I was just talking to my brother about this, and Aegislash has a ton of plusses that basically allows him to fit onto many team archetypes. He has at least three viable sets (subtoxic, autotomize, crumber) and some less viable sets (like swords dance) plus tons of options that allow him to get past other would-be counters, specifically Bisharp and Mandibuzz, thanks to Sacred Sword and Head Smash, respectively. Priority T-wave from Thundurus really doesn't do squat; in fact, Aegislash loves being slower, unless it's Autotomize.

His typing is fantastic, and thanks to Shadow Sneak, he can 2HKO a large part of the meta. The reliance on prediction is his biggest downfall, yet also his largest asset. I've seen a game where he took out at least three mons early game because his opponent kept predicting the King's Shield that didn't happen for many turns. Is that because Aegislash is broken, or because the other player was bad? Hard to really tell. But it's interesting, for sure.

I never saw Aegislash as broken, but looking at my own arguments, I'm not sure anymore. I'll think about it so I don't bandwagon.

Also, I totally predicted Aegislash as the next suspect. >_>

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

So everyone is saying that Aegislash has plenty of checks here and there. True.
So let's look at some things that potentially can switch into it and threaten it back.

Based off of 1825 June Usage Stats:

Hide

4. Heatran
5. Scizor
6. Bisharp
8. Tyranitar
11. Landorus
15. Excadrill
16. Garchomp
17. Landorus-Therian
24. Greninja
25. Gyarados
29. Gliscor
31. Mamoswine
33. Zapdos
34. Mandibuzz
40. Amoonguss
43. Conkeldurr
50. Hippowdon

Oh look, so many checks and revenge killers and whatnot. But why?
1. Aegislash

This thing is on more than a quarter of all teams... that's how easily it fits.

There are so many "checks" to it. It has very common weaknesses. The metagame threatens it a lot.
And it's still #1 in usage by a longshot? That's how good it is.

Take a look at Jirachi for example.
106. Jirachi

Very very similar weaknesses and resistances. Stats are definitely above average for OU. This thing was S-rank last generation. And look, people are scared to use it.

Arguments? Steel nerf, Dark Buff, not good in this meta due to common weaknesses.

The difference between these two pokemon should tell you more than enough about how good Aegislash really is.

I disagree with this post very strongly.

Those 17 pokemon are all incredible pokemon that wouldn't see a significant drop in usage from a ban at all. Some might even rise because there's a void to fill.

We all know Aegislash is amazing, but how is this over centralizing? Good pokemon being better because they have 1 more useful niche it about as out of the ordinary as it raining in Seattle.

For those of you undecided users, there are tons of arguments here that are perfectly logical that show why Aegis should be banned. Don't be fooled; make the smart decision

This post is just crap. I've taken every reason, except maybe the versatility one, and shown exactly how blown out of proportion they are. If you really want to get rid of this guy because you can't handle it, at least don't insult me by making such terrible posts.

 

[AleeC]

When I first saw Aegislash in suspect I was like: "WTF is wrong with you guys?", but there is a lot of people that is really into banning Mr. Sword. So, I'm going to say what I think about the suspect.

1. There is and there always be a Earthquake spam in OU and it does at least a 50% of damage to Aegislash with no STAB. Also it is not affected by King's Shield.
2. Knock Off is more powerful than before and there is also a Knock Off spam in ladder.
3. King's Shield doesn't protect Aegislash by non damaging moves like Will o Wisp and since Gen 5 everyone have at least one WoW user.
4. If Smogon bans Aegislash, Mawile will be the next and it will go on and on and on♫

I use Aegislash in my teams and yeah, it creates a lot of mindgames but I think that it is not centralizing meta like Keldeo did it in late BW. After 1500 in ladder winning or losing depends on prediction and most of those players that are beyond that limit can deal with an Aegislash with no problem.

In conclusion DON'T BAN IT

 

[Magnemite]

Bisharp checks all variants that aren't speed creeping. If they are speed creeping they're running +Speed natures instead of +SpA and aren't running bulk, making them easier to handle.

How does this make them easier to handle? if they speed creep your bisharp and OHKO it with sacred sword, then you just lost your main and likely only response to aegislash on your team. if you're not running bisharp, then it does make it a bit less threatening against the aegislash answer you are running (which, as has been established, there are very few of) but not by much, especially since almost all +spe aegislash run life orb. however, there are ways for aegislash to bypass any other one of its checks in the same way that it can bypass bisharp with an offensive LO set, without even using an otherwise bad or gimmicky set.

 

[AM]

For those of you undecided users, there are tons of arguments here that are perfectly logical that show why Aegis should be banned. Don't be fooled; make the smart decision

"Don't be fooled, make the smart decision". Let people make there own decision without things like this please lol. To be perfectly honest there isn't so you really can't say that with confidence. I'm one of those users and that post really just represented a bias against Aegislash more so than solidifying your points about concrete arguments. Valid points have been presented on both sides and I would like to read more as well as see how it applies in a practical use on the ladder. Thank you.

 

[SansNickel]

I disagree with this post very strongly.

Those 17 pokemon are all incredible pokemon that wouldn't see a significant drop in usage from a ban at all. Some might even rise because there's a void to fill.

We all know Aegislash is amazing, but how is this over centralizing? Good pokemon being better because they have 1 more useful niche it about as out of the ordinary as it raining in Seattle.


This post is just crap. I've taken every reason, except maybe the versatility one, and shown exactly how blown out of proportion they are. If you really want to get rid of this guy because you can't handle it, at least don't insult me by making such terrible posts.

1. Hippowdon was UU for quite some time. But yes it checks many other things.
2. SDef Gliscor was hardly ever a thing.
3. Mandibuzz wasn't really seen until Aegislash.

But it seems you have missed my point. My point was focused on the Jirachi comparison, not the overcentralisation argument.

 

[Subject 18]

Quick warning:

Do not mention testing Talonflame, Mega Mawile, or Charizard. This discussion of this thread is meant solely for Aegislash and Aegislash only. Talonflame is not going to be tested anytime soon, it's honestly not as great as people think. There is a time and place for everything. But not now. If you can't follow this, your post may be subject to being deleted or a moderator will edit yout that portion of the post. Just don't do it.

Bisharp checks all variants that aren't speed creeping. If they are speed creeping they're running +Speed natures instead of +SpA and aren't running bulk, making them easier to handle.

Easier to handle? What really wants to switch into a LO Aegislash?

Because a smart player isn't trying to make contact with Aegislash.....

So running a sub-optimal moveset to deal with a Pokemon is a "smart" now?

My point stands. No one had a problem with this a few months ago at all and now we all want to cry foul.

This is completely untrue people had issues with it months ago, the only reason nothing was done about was because of Baton Pass and SwagPlay. Just about every tournament player and tons of other good players had issues with it, this isn't new..

 

[Clone]

For those of you undecided users, there are tons of arguments here that are perfectly logical that show why Aegis should be banned. Don't be fooled; make the smart decision

Im hard pressed to say that its the smart decision. A lot of arguments Ive seen are biased by personal hatred for the sword. Im neutral on this manner and look at it from an objective point of view, and while I see both sides, I dont see the "overpoweredness" that the last suspects have had. Centralizing? Sure. OP? No. His checks are non gimmicky and can do a multitude of things.

Edit:

Quick warning:

Do not mention testing Talonflame, Mega Mawile, or Charizard. This discussion of this thread is meant solely for Aegislash and Aegislash only. Talonflame is not going to be tested anytime soon, it's honestly not as great as people think. There is a time and place for everything. But not now. If you can't follow this, your post may be subject to being deleted or a moderator will edit yout that portion of the post. Just don't do it.



Easier to handle? What really wants to switch into a LO Aegislash?

Not much. Who want to switch into Mega Mawile or Mega Garchomp or any other wallbreaker? Not much. I dont see why this is such a problem. I see a wallbreaker doing a wallbreakers job.

So running a sub-optimal moveset to deal with a Pokemon is a "smart" now?

The only time this is true is if youre referring to Terrakion (whose movepool is as barren as a wasteland assuming the Scarf set), or Mega Heracross, who doesnt lose that much if hes running CC / EQ / Pin Missle / Bullet Seed. Fire Blast and Earthquake are standard coverage for most things that are supposed to deal damage. Dont see how thats suboptimal.

This is completely untrue people had issues with it months ago, the only reason nothing was done about was because of Baton Pass and SwagPlay. Just about every tournament player and tons of other good players had issues with it, this isn't new..

Dont have a reply to this, though I can say that hes gotten easier to handle over time.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

1. Hippowdon was UU for quite some time. But yes it checks many other things.
2. SDef Gliscor was hardly ever a thing.
3. Mandibuzz wasn't really seen until Aegislash.

But it seems you have missed my point. My point was focused on the Jirachi comparison, not the overcentralisation argument.

Mandibuzz became a thing because of the defog hype. Some people just noticed it was still useful even after defog became common. Can't disagree bout Gliscor tho

Jirachi, as well as Metagross, just got left behind. Look at Virizion vs Chesnaught and Breloom. They're different pokemon all with a big problem named Talonflame, but 2 have a useful niche that made them relevant while the other simply didn't and is pretty useless in OU. Yes, Aegislash is better than Chesnaught, but comparing it to Jirachi doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[Vivmeister10]

For one, you aren't running any different movesets than what is out there.
You are using EQ or any special move (which there are plenty) to avoid the drops from King's Shield.
You aren't going to be in the most optimal position at all times but at least be smart and don't put yourself into the position where King's Shield can screw you. Primarily since it's very predictable. Sure, you may not have a switch in, but putting yourself in scenarios where Aegislash can easily take control (which seems to be on the rise for some incoherent reasons) is inexcusable, especially for these high skilled players. It's just sad to see that no-ban posts are completely tossed aside because the arguments "aren't strong enough" and "illogical." I can say the same for the players that have been dealing with Aegislash since its inception and yet found Swagger and Baton Pass more compelling issues to address....

 

[Eik00c]

Aegislash Pros and Cons:
Pros: Can run nearly any kind of set, can beat its counters/checks when utilizing differents sets, has a great defensive and offensive typing, King's Shield (mindgames), can have both 150/150 offenses and defenses (if played correctly)

Cons: While able to tank a Knock Off, it hates its item being removed; King's Shield mindgames, weak to common types (ex: Ground, Fire, etc.)

Made this to list some of Aegislash's advantages and disadvantages. I might've missed a few things here and there, so please tell me if so.
As for my opinion on the Aegislash suspect, I'm not too sure myself. I'm leaning toward no ban, but at the same time, I'm curious to see what the metagame would be like if Aegislash were to be banned.

I'm consistently seeing the same thing between arguments; "Ban Aegis, it has 150/150 offenses and defenses" or "don't ban Aegis, Skarm/Mandi/Bisharp counters it." I have to agree with -Clone- that some of these arguments might be biased. I'ma stahp talking now, too tired to think anymore. >.<

Might elaborate more when my brain is working properly.

 

[Blizzardhail]

I love you Aegislash, and you have been on 3/4 of my teams. Unfortunately this only shows how centralising it is. It may define XY OU, but there's a reason why people called XY OU cancer. The 50/50s Aegislash causes is is way too much. When you say Ghost type, you think of Aegislash. When you say Steel type, you think of Aegislash. I may lose 3/4 of my teams, but it is for the better of the OU metagame.