np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Lucario1313]

Probably because we've been playing in a meta with Aegislash in it for 8 months now, and if we're going to suspect test it, it makes more sense to see how the metagame changes with it gone and if that meta is more desirable than our current one.

That makes sense, but not in the light of the suspect test that just ended.

 

[Killua kun]

Aegislash is of course a very pokémon used both defensively and offensively. Before making a concrete analysis I want to point out that The fightspam of bw2 is rendered completely useless by this Pokemon, having very high defences and typing steel/ghost can enter on all fight without dark move easily with king shield, now as now without the deoxys, remember to mawile, that would a pokémon from ban instantly, but it is not The time. Aegislash is a great antsipinner, in the stall or in balanced team you can find subtoxic, set that destroys one of his counter, mandibuzz. In the offensives used almost always mixed based on the weaknesses of your team about choosing ironhead/sacred sword, or even used sword dancer, I admit that proves a powerful Pokemon, but not invincible.
King shield just isn't at all how to protect State moves work all right, already the fact of being able to burn for example is a step in countering his physical set, heatran, bisharp, tyranitar, spdefender, Mvenusaur, conkeldurr, mandibuzz, megagyarados, Pokemon are popular in top usage ou and can stop him in almost every occasion, also is a Pokemon very predictable, but nonetheless very strong indeed. With his ban would be definitely the fightspam, destroying the equilibrium of the stall as playstyle and increasing sharply the way offensive, then absolutely not ban!
Think twice before you make snap judgments :)

 

[chimpact]

Aegislash without King's Shield is pretty much worthless in OU, so banning it doesn't actually accomplish anything that just banning him wouldn't.


Saying that he forces physical attackers to run Earthquake is dumb, because physical attackers should be running it most of the time anyways. It's the strongest no-drawback physical move in the game that isn't a signature, and has one of the best offensive types.

Pinsir, Hera, terrak, among other mons run eq when they can be running much better moves. Eq is really average when you compare it to CC

 

[BlackBuccaneer]

I'm glad that we've finally gotten to suspecting Aegislash, seeing as it's the elephant in the room of XY OU. Even after 12 pages of discourse now and countless arguments I've had on it before, I'm still on the fence about how I'll land on voting for it, since there are very potent arguments on both sides, this definitely will be a close vote.
I do think however that once the suspect test ladder goes up and we see a metagame without Aegislash at all, it'll be interesting to see how things shift completely (either in a good or bad way), and it'll be easier for everyone to see how they feel on the issue. Can't wait to see destruction come from all the powerhouses that were previously stopped by Aegislash and if things will be able to simmer down from that into a more desirable metagame.

 

[EmilyBay]

You know I can use the fact of one of the Lucario arguements I saw once. Its to versatile you switch in to chansey thing special then it hits you physical. And it applys to aegislash its to versatile it needs to go Imo if only for the fact that it stops so many things from being good while having no sure fire counter.

 

[The Shortest Path]

Pinsir, Hera, terrak, among other mons run eq when they can be running much better moves. Eq is really average when you compare it to CC

I disagree. Sure, EQ is 20 BP less, but I'd argue that Ground has better coverage than Fighting, and it doesn't have the defensive drawback that CC does. They're both very good moves, though, and either of the two should be run on nearly all physical attackers. Aegislash making some pokemon lean towards EQ rather than CC isn't that big of a deal considering how great both are against a wide variety of things.

 

[white9old]

I disagree. Sure, EQ is 20 BP less, but I'd argue that Ground has better coverage than Fighting, and it doesn't have the defensive drawback that CC does. They're both very good moves, though, and either of the two should be run on nearly all physical attackers. Aegislash making some pokemon lean towards EQ rather than CC isn't that big of a deal considering how great both are against a wide variety of things.

Pinsir pretty much runs earthquake for aegislash. It would prefer close combat to get past one of its only true counters, skarmory. If slash can cause one of the most threatening sweepers to change a move almost specifically for it, we may have a problem on our hands.

 

[The Shortest Path]

Pinsir pretty much runs earthquake for aegislash. It would prefer close combat to get past one of its only true counters, skarmory. If slash can cause one of the most threatening sweepers to change a move almost specifically for it, we may have a problem on our hands.

So then Skarmory warps the metagame by forcing too many pokemon to run moves to deal with it?

Having to choose between threats to negate isn't a bad thing for the metagame. It keeps things interesting, and forces people to make actual decisions when teambuilding instead of just "this is the best set for this pokemon". Basically, complaining about needing certain move types to deal with certain threats is kind of silly, especially when referring to only one Pokemon on your team. If one set could negate all of the things that threaten it, wouldn't that be worthy of being banned, then?

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

So then Skarmory warps the metagame by forcing too many pokemon to run moves to deal with it?

Having to choose between threats to negate isn't a bad thing for the metagame. It keeps things interesting, and forces people to make actual decisions when teambuilding instead of just "this is the best set for this pokemon". Basically, complaining about needing certain move types to deal with certain threats is kind of silly, especially when referring to only one Pokemon on your team. If one set could negate all of the things that threaten it, wouldn't that be worthy of being banned, then?

It's more like Aegislash is forcing Pinsir to run EQ, which makes it unable to get past Skarmory.

 

[haunter]

Can any mods or staff explain why Aegislash is banned from his own suspect test when last week the deos were running rampant in theirs, and when even further back baton pass was allowed in its suspect?

It's banned cause we want to see what an Aegislash-less metagame looks like. This is quite possibly one of the most metagame-defining Pokémon, so it makes sense to remove it from the suspect ladder and see how the metagame reacts to its absence. Speaking of which, the OU (suspect ladder) is going live as I type this message.

As for the status of Aegislash, right now I'm convinced it's neither broken nor unhealthy for the game, though I'll make my final stance on it after playing some games on the suspect ladder. I can see why people hate Aegislash though. King's shield is a bitch and causes a lot of 50/50 situations, it also discourages the use of pursuit (unless the pursuiter is Bisharp) and Aegislash hits stupidly hard when in blade form. Aegislash is certainly one of the best, if not the best, Pokémon in OU right now.

Also guys, keep in mind that whether stealth rock is more centralizing than Aegislash is totally irrelevant to the topic of this thread, so please stop bringing it up. I've already deleted and infracted a bunch of off-topic posts.

Finally, complaining about our decision to test Aegislash won't accomplish anything. If you think Aegislash is not broken, then qualify and vote it OU. Remember that, ultimately, you'll be the ones who have the final say on its status.

 

[Pyritie]

It's more like Aegislash is forcing Pinsir to run EQ, which makes it unable to get past Skarmory.

Didn't a lot of pinsirs also run EQ with mold breaker pre-mega to help against rotom-w, when rotom-w was more popular?

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Didn't a lot of pinsirs also run EQ with mold breaker pre-mega to help against rotom-w, when rotom-w was more popular?

Aegislash was popular from the day it was released, so rotom is just a benefit. +2 CC kills it after rocks iirc

 

[Gazebo Piplups]

We're finally testing Aegislash. Although i wouldn't define Aegislash as a "broken" mon, it has been shaping the ou meta since it came out. Great stats, awesome typing and wide versatility make this mighty sword a top threat in the current meta. Mostly because you are forced to find a way to check Aegi, as it is almost on ever team you face while laddering.

As stated before in other posts, Aegi forces lots of other Pokémons to run moves specifically to take him on. While this is definetly something not "banworthy", what should really make us think is the fact that this thing has no effective counters (in the way they should be intended). Nothing is able to shut down, at the same time, every set Aegi can run. It can be a pivot, probably the best spin blocker if running a balloon, a late game cleaner, a tank, running an incredible subtox set, or be spamming life orb boosted attacks. It's versatility and effectiveness are simply ridicolous.
Aegislash has, of course, it's checks and things that might scare him off the field (especially in blade form), but still any answer it's merely a check. Also, nothing is capable of switching into Aegi without fearing a hard punishment, although this involves predictions and stuff (which are still part of competitive Pokémon). King's shield it's another great feature it has that allow Aegi to switch form and to take on most physical attackers out there barring defiant users such as Thundy or Bisharp.

Aegislash is probalby the best Pokémon in the OU tier at the moment so it definetly needs to be tested imo. During the suspect we'll be able to experience a meta without this guy and how it will be reshaped by it's absence.
So even though i use Aegislash quiet a lot, i'd vote for him to go.

 

[Sunodasuto]

I find it odd why Game Freak decided to make a pokemon that can double as a wall and a powerhouse while being better at both than most pokemon that are devoted to attacking or defending.

 

[Rotosect]

Aegislash is basically what Tauros was to Gen 1, Snorlax to Gen 2, Tyranitar to Gen 3, Heatran to Gen 4 and... ok Gen 5 was a mess so I won't touch that one.
Anyway my point is that while Aegi is metagame-defining, it doesn't posses any "broken" trait. It's not mindless like Genesect, it doesn't possess a retarded amount of power like M-Lucario or M-Kanga (Shadow Ball is still an 80 BP move), it doesn't have a bullshit ability like Mega Gengar and it doesn't give you a huge advantage right from turn 1 like Deoxys-D.

 

[Pyritie]

I find it odd why Game Freak decided to make a pokemon that can double as a wall and a powerhouse while being better at both than most pokemon that are devoted to attacking or defending.

game freak was also surprised that everyone started using it as a special attacker when they claimed they intended for it to be used as a physical one

they aren't very good at balancing their own game

source: http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-news/keeping-an-eye-on-the-game/

 

[TFL]

game freak was also surprised that everyone started using it as a special attacker when they claimed they intended for it to be used as a physical one

they aren't very good at balancing their own game

source: http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-news/keeping-an-eye-on-the-game/

Plenty of developers try to balance fighting games with less than 50 characters and there ends up being one that's too strong, because of something they cannot foresee. With the amount that GameFreak adds, it's completely unreasonable to expect balance.

Also gonna say that your decision to ban/not ban Aegislash boils down to whether or not you like a metagame with it gone.

 

[pika pal]

Think for the first time I'm going to try and ladder for the Req, because I disagree with an Aegis ban for one flaw: high-risk in predictions.

While an Aegislash user had the advantage of unpredictability in the sets, Aegis can't be played mindlessly the way other suspects could.
For example: If Deoxys-D didn't fight a lead with Taunt, all he lost was the Mental Herb use. He still got to lay hazards against 95% of leads, and the leftovers didn't mean much ad far as averyting KOs an laying more spikes.

Phone is terrible. Will elaborate later from a computer.

 

[SansNickel]

Aegislash is basically what Tauros was to Gen 1, Snorlax to Gen 2, Tyranitar to Gen 3, Heatran to Gen 4 and... ok Gen 5 was a mess so I won't touch that one.
Anyway my point is that while Aegi is metagame-defining, it doesn't posses any "broken" trait. It's not mindless like Genesect, it doesn't posses a retarded amount of power like M-Lucario or M-Kanga (Shadow Ball is still an 80 BP move), it doesn't have a bullshit ability like Mega Gengar and it doesn't give you a huge advantage right from turn 1 like Deoxys-D.

Well actually, shadow ball is pretty spammable, as ghost is one of the best offensive neutral-coverage types in the game. There's not really a drawback to spamming a powerful move with a 20% chance to lower spD.

M-Lucario's adaptability you can consider as a life orb on STAB moves, as 1.5 x 1.3 is roughly 2. Also don't forget that later on quite a significant portion of M-Luke users decided to go special (only base 80 power moves), and thus the power between M-Lucario and LO Aegislash is actually very comparable.

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 184-218 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 208-246 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, of course M-Luke gets access to Nasty Plot in addition to SD, and a much better physical set, but the point is if you say M-Luke's power is retarded, then Aegislash is close to there as well.

Not a bullshit ability? Being able to switch between Deo-D bulk and Deo-N offensive stats isn't bullshit? Okay.

Despite what I've said, I'm still undecided, but leaning towards voting to ban. It's hard to say how the metagame will change without Aegislash.

 

[TheEnder]

Here we go again eh? Finally I think the ladder isn't going to be total cancer though, and that's a big relief :]

Aegislash is in my mind one of the two pokemon you can fit on every single team, together with Thundurus-I. It is also one of the pokemon you have to prepare for on every team, and if you don't, your team simply won't fare that well :/

How centralizing it has been os totally crazy. It has a fantastic typing both Defensively and Offensively, in addition to a wide movepool.

In my opinon, SD Aegi was the one who started to shape the Physically based metagame we have had for many months (together with all the Megas, but thats another case). Then Aegi adopted to this and started running special sets to overcome the physical walls hindering the SD sets from being effective. When Mandibuzz rose in usage, things became harder. Flash Cannon became a seml-common move. Then the SubToxic set was brought up, and it gave Aegi a way of beating bulky slow walls relying on hitting it in Sword Forme in order to take it down.

In other words Aegislash has no true counters, just reasonably good checks. You will usually have to bring at least two ways of either taking hits from or hitting Aegislash hard in order to deal with it.

Another thing about Aegi though, is that it keeps a lot of threats from running rampant; Lati@s, Gardevoir, Heracross, Terrakion and Medicham to name a few lol Hawlucha. What will happen if we ban Aegi? I don't really know if I'll like the meta w/o Aegi, and I actually look forward the this suspect test :)

 

[CaptainSteve]

No doubt that Aegislash is a threat - I know that I already have 3 sitting in my X version, and could easily rotate them and build a team around any of them. Boasting x/50/150/50/150/x and then x/150/50/150/50/x (can't remember the HP and Speed BS), it's very tricky to counter or even check if you don't have any idea of what it could be running.

For example, I have a Modest Aegislash running Autotomise and using a Red Card - I actually felt sorry for my opponent, because he could not have known what set I was running before I OHKO'd two thirds of his entire team. I also run a Naive Aegislash using Shadow Ball and Iron Head, and a Life Orb.

My point being is that Aegislash can run so many different set ups that all work well that it becomes overcentralised in OU. I've been swept 6-0 by an Aegislash and won 4-0 using one myself, and I completely agree that it should be banned to Ubers. My only question is - how well will it fare in Ubers?

 

[ksp11]

Never had a issue with Aegislash aside from Destiny Bond.
What it boils down is whether stalling with Aegislash is acceptable, & certainly Aegislash is capable.
What impacts a Pokemon to be banned is usually its diverse movepool.
A Pokemon selected decided by its typing.
I don't see it, however, Aegislash, is worth banning for being overused.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

No doubt that Aegislash is a threat - I know that I already have 3 sitting in my X version, and could easily rotate them and build a team around any of them. Boasting x/50/150/50/150/x and then x/150/50/150/50/x (can't remember the HP and Speed BS), it's very tricky to counter or even check if you don't have any idea of what it could be running.

For example, I have a Modest Aegislash running Autotomise and using a Red Card - I actually felt sorry for my opponent, because he could not have known what set I was running before I OHKO'd two thirds of his entire team. I also run a Naive Aegislash using Shadow Ball and Iron Head, and a Life Orb.

My point being is that Aegislash can run so many different set ups that all work well that it becomes overcentralised in OU. I've been swept 6-0 by an Aegislash and won 4-0 using one myself, and I completely agree that it should be banned to Ubers. My only question is - how well will it fare in Ubers?

It's only use in ubers is as a xern check. And I honestly will vote based on how the meta is without it.

 

[motherlove]

Reading the comments, i think the biggest problem for aegislash is that it runs ings shield and forces 50/50s
In that case, ban kings shield, aegislash would still be viable, just not as annoying
Ok, he centers the meta, but so do other pokes, Some people complain that because of him, pokes like medicham/heracross/hawlucha cannot be played, but in my opinion, the pokemons that centers the meta and makes alot of pokemons unvaliable, is talonflames.

But a ban of aegislash would leave place for eviolithe doublade, which i use, and love

 

[Masterplay]

I think with Aegislash banned, we can finally see a lot more Mega Pokemon in the Metagame, especially Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Medicham; amongst other Pokemon too!
Its typing is just too good defensively and offensively, and he King's Shield 50/50s are just a mess. It can fit on almost any type of team due to its DeoD/DeoN stats and diverse movepoll.

And no, running Mandibuzz or Bisharp is not acceptable
Very excited about this suspect; I hope the community makes the most logical decision, because this monster just needs to go right into Ubers where he rightfully belongs! =D

I don't think with Aegis banned will allow those Pokes to come to OU. Ok, Aegis definitely checks Megacham, but I definitely know Aegis isn't keeping Heracross from OU. Since Megacross doesn't make contact with Aegis, so King's Shield doesn't hurt you, and just Rock Blast/Pin Missile it to death. I assume you're an intelligent being to know that doesn't make sense as Mega Heracross rarely makes contact (Arm Thrust is pretty much the only move that Megacross can make contact with, and Ghosts are immune to Fighting), therefore King's Shield doesn't induce stat drop. The think keeping Megacross from OU is Talonflame. Priority Brave Bird will pretty much kill it.

King's Shield is just a prediction, thats not bad and unhealthy for the game. They are sorta easy to predict honestly. Shield, Sneak, rinse, repeat. If you or anyone else can't figure out a 2-step pattern, that is their problem, not the metagame.

Bisharp and Mandi check it, its not anyone's fault that you're not running it. No one is telling you to run it. And don't deny that they are checks.

The only thing this suspect should be is to suspect the SubToxic set, and rarely anyone runs that. There should only be a test for something thats broken and not commonly countered/checked (not only Bisharp and Mandy check it, but mostly any Fire type Pokemon can OHKO it, and Ttar can 2HKO via Fire Blast).

tl;dr Aegis is a very, very good poke, and the only thing that makes it viable, and the only thing it makes it suspected is King's Shield, which again, is easy to predict. It sounds like people want easy wins by removing this. Also, this thing will just fail in Ubers, not fast enough and can't hit hard enough to be a decent threat. It should stay in its place