Big Lord of the Rings Mafia - Game Over! Forces of Sauron Win!

LightWolf

lightwoof
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I disagree that there's no reason to kill the bodyguard if you control his actions. If Lightwolf knows who the inspector is, or other important power roles, RODAN will want to protect them. Lightwolf wouldn't be able to reasonably get him to NOT protect them. In order to get to the power roles, he has to get rid of the bodyguard. Also, getting rid of the bodyguard now is better than having Lightwolf be found out and then having no control over him.

Additionally, I agree with billymills about the village having 2 bodyguards. So, if RODAN was known and Legolas was not, if RODAN is left alive, and Lightwolf is found out, then Legolas can protect RODAN while RODAN protects power roles. This is a scenario where the mafia is powerless to get rid of the bodyguard without successfull randing Legolas.

I'll concede to the point about revealing cleaned villagers. I just think it's silly to continuously be told "yeah, I hit villager" time and time again and just be 'ok' with that as Lightwolf's result. You have to think there are at least 10 mafia men, and Lightwolf was aggressively collecting claims... I find it kind of suspicious that he didn't hit mafia for two nights when he likely had a number of good targets.

I'll Unvote Lightwolf because it is obvious that's not going to be our lynch today, but I would implore the village to be extremely suspicious of him if he comes up with nothing for a 3rd day, because I disagree about Lightwolf needing to give up his mafia buddies in order to seem clean. The balance in a 1v1 game is such that it's EXPECTED that the village will kill mafians every day, and the mafia will kill villagers. I would imagine that the mafia only needs to cause 3-4 mislynches in order to almost entirely wrap the game up, wolf not counted.
I'm gonna have a field day with this.

The first point you forget something fucking important, god I will get back to part of this later so let's focus on the problem for now. If it's about killing powerful roles RODAN may want to protect, well I'm cool with that I will just KILL THEM WHEN RODAN CAN'T PROTECT THEM, he couldn't protect the same person twice in a row. Rodan would at most delay kills in that case, it'd be a minor inconvenience. Let's not forget that I'm nearly inspector level in importance, getting RODAN to protect me at least every other night is really that farfetched? Not to mention you yourself suggest multiple power roles, out of which RODAN+Legolas could only protect two, and one of them could easily be me. Let's not forget this assumption depends on the fact that I said I wouldn't mind adding RODAN to a sheet of mine regardless of faction since his role is too obviously clean, but if I say wanted to eliminate a specific power role as much as you suggest I did, why wouldn't I say that for now he should just protect me and I will wait till his counterpart claims. Completely reasonable claim, I kill the power role you oh so imply I killed the BG for. Also you are being silly and pretend the mafia would only have a stupid kill to deal with power roles? Redirect the BG, Hook the BG, Redirect or Hook the problematic power role. You are completely ignoring tools a mafia team is likely to have to deal with troublesome factors in favour of suggesting the one that makes me look worse, but even those are silly in the first place and I feel insulted that I'm assumed to possibly make those plays in the first place!

Now onto the Legolas protecting RODAN in case I'm revealed. Hi my name is can't protect the same person twice in a row, have we met yet, oh right I remember it was just above this, good times good times. Also if I didn't have Legolas then wouldn't it be far more beneficial for me to be careful and make myself more trusted first so I can get both BGs in my bag before I start making risky plays? Well say we assume I'm being pressed for time, sadly under the circumstances that quite unlikely, since I'm claiming Gandalf. Only way that hasn't been CCed yet is if I received that as my fake claim option. Combine that with the GAZE flavour everyone seems to be nitpicking on(really if I wanted to write a gandalf fake with alliance checker I'd not choose something Sauron-y by my own accord, and Ullar can confirm I'm well versed in Sauron stuff so I'd know that he is a huge EYE) it's unlikely that if this is a fake claim it wasn't handed to me as is to claim in this exact way, ergo there should be no pressure of being revealed on me, none pressing enough to make a risky play and kill RODAN.

And now LN, seriously???????? Did you even read RODAN's Role PM? Because it doesn't sound like it, you make points painfully unaware of the can't target same target twice in a row rule clearly in his PM and reference billy's post as to why Legolas is also a BG even though it is pretty much stated in his role PM as well. Or not to mention I confirmed the fact I was indeed in contact with Legolas and my post last night was made to make Gimli not double protect me. Which also crosses off your point of me not knowing both BGs, unless I'm lying about Legolas contacting me, but if I was Legolas would be easily able to contact you at night LN and tell you what a liar I am(spoilers, that won't happen).

Oh and the last one is a great one, hmmm I wonder which claim is more suspicious from the ones I got Soldier of Gondor #4 or maybe Rohirrim #15. There are only two reasons any mafia member would ever claim anything other than those, either it was provided for them as a safe claim, or they are taking a risk to get on the sheet and I wonder who'd willingly risk moling Mr Paranoid Wolf. Naturally some confident in their ability may just still try it, but I haven't found any yet myself, that and I still had trouble keeping up the claim getting due to my laptop circumstances so I still have a good chunk of the village not having given me SHIT for claims. Either way if you are honestly reasoning that under this circumstances it's suspicious that I have no solid leads then you are underestimating how much US has done to destroy the village leader system(well all he did was basically make the majority of the game vanilla villagers, but that's pretty effective in allowing mafia to easily hide with no effort).

You unvote me yet you still keep coming up with new reasonings as to why the RODAN kill would make sense for mafia me and seemingly refuse to comment on anyone else even though you state I likely won't be lynched today AND highlight the importance of getting a lynch in each day in a 1v1 setup, basically letting the village miss this oh so important lynch. If you really believed I was mafia you wouldn't fucking unvote me without suggesting another target, especially if all you did was pile on more (ludicrous) points against me. You were basically content with just trying to discredit me a bit and set up a lynch for the next day where I likely will be again unable to provide a lynch target due to the very nature of this game that should be fairly obvious to most players just based on the existence of two types of vanillas. I mean I did consider you maybe just don't care about the game and that's where the inconsistencies and stupid accusations come from, but you clearly care too much for me not to be leading the village for that to be true.

My vote sticks on LN. Also where are the people the people complaining about aggressiveness only putting the village into disarray, here is a real example of behavior that actually leads to that.
 

Ditto

/me huggles
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Well I remembered what my [3] was.

[3] Did anyone ever answer my question about mafia having OC during NOC? I know that different games have had different rulings on this subject.

Just a little plot twist for everyone, this fight has been very vocal. Not saying this is the case, but I want the possibility of both LN and LW being mafia. A play in which they point the finger at each other, but don't actually act on it. Dogs barking at each other, which leads us to believe that at least one of them is village. Eventually pointing us in the direction of probably LightWolf because he is already in the public view. I don't really pay attention to NOC because I really hate the style, so I don't know if this is common or not. But I think that if anyone could actually pull this off, LN and LW are smart enough to. Not saying it's true, just saying that I think people should pay close attention to how this resolves.
 
unvote vote acklow since that's picking up steam and I expressed suspicion on him earlier pls AG have mercy

Not sure why people are getting on MS's case? Sheeping isn't bad when you agree with something and have nothing to add. Also he's right that it's hard to do shit in a game this big if it's NOC. There's probably like 10 people that I remember doing anything and even fewer that I have an opinion on
 

LonelyNess

Makin' PK Love
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There's really no need to be hostile, LightWolf. I'm raising concerns about how RODAN died and while you're answering them, you're doing so in an extremely defensive manner... makes me think maybe I struck a chord? Who knows?

From what I've seen from mafias, they are opportunistic. Mekkah had the bodyguard in mafia mafia 2 completely under his control and he STILL wanted him dead ASAP, because you can never count on the ability to kill them later in the game. If the mafia knew RODAN was bodyguard (either via you moling or via a very unlikely random inspection), and they had no other leads, why -NOT- kill him? To hopefully get a power role in a villager heavy game? Come on, that's just stupid. It's early in the game. If I was mafia, I'd go after the sure thing, even IF I thought maybe I could manipulate RODAN / Legolas and avoid them all game long. You're talking about guaranteed bodyguard kill vs. like 60% villager 20% a good power role and 20% a mediocre power role. The choice is so clear to who they would kill it's astounding that you would even consider them taking an alternative option.

Also, and this is an aside, but just fyi I'm in like 75% of channels xenu is in and he was not idle last night when he came online, but was not talking in any of the channels he regularly talks in. It's obviously not conclusive proof of anything, but it's definitely worth noting.
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
unvote
vote aura guardian

I'm 99% sure he's seen Metal Sonic in a NOC before, he should know that jumping on a Metal Sonic lynch for a post like that is pretty baseless.
While I don't think a lynch on Metal Sonic is warranted, this seems even less called for. How someone acted in other games is no way grounds for them being clean or not, he could replicate his behavior on either team.

LN suggesting that the clear course is to kill an under control bodyguard in a tactical game is absurd. There are many, many different angles to consider when it comes to who to kill, for instance I never killed the Bodyguard in ELECTROS (and not for lack of being a thorn in my side).

My vote stays on Acklow.
 

Acklow

I am always tired. Don't bother me.
I seem to have attracted quite a bit of attention lately for some odd reason.

Mind you, my #1 is still Acklow, in fact, lynch acklow. You should note that he didn't say "if one of them flips", he said "if one of them is village". There's a lot of ways different variations of flips on the two of us could be evaluated as you point out, but he seemed to already know the outcome.

First of all, quit getting it all twisted. You seem to be disregarding what I said earlier:

I can't tell if that was a case of mafia vs. mafia or village vs. village or village vs. mafia, but I can say that if at least one of the two ever turn village, we should take a look at the other person and examine their actions/conversations.

Meaning, I don't know whether either of you are mafia or village or whatever the heck you may be! I was only speculating and that's all that's there to it! My question to you is why you constantly read into my words and then twist them to fit your purpose? I'm not eloquently capable of putting my words together all the time and my logic tends to be very shoddy, so I can see why you would think I meant one thing when I was only trying to say something else. I think aska put what I wanted to say in better terms:

In regards to Acklow's point about von vs jalmont, while we can't say that if one flips town then the other is mafia, we can say that if one flips mafia the other is more likely to be town.

Lightwolf voiced his concern over this and I agree that I'm at fault for putting light to the scenario over you and Jalmont. I just couldn't help but notice it from the day before, which is why I brought it up. Yes I agree that made me look scummy, and in retrospect I realize that what I thought would be a minor contributory insight from myself ended up biting me in the ass. However, I'm not out to get you. At this point, I don't think you're mafia, however, I dislike the fact that you push some sort of an agenda you have on me.

I can't really see how this is possible.

You read the opening post and read down to the orc role PM and determine they have some voting ability. Then you decide 'I wonder what this voting ability could be' without reading the very next paragraph. To me this signals that you saw the orc role PM independently of the opening post, and didn't bother reading it when you found the same passage again.

Vote acklow

Taking into account the fact that you assign me as mafia in your post, let me ask you this: if I WERE an orc and I "saw the orc role PM independently of the opening post," why do you somehow suddenly believe that I wouldn't bother reading it when I found the same passage again in the op (are you implying that I'd be careless as mafia?)? It's ironic how you say it isn't possible that village me wouldn't read the next paragraph (and voiced his concern over what the ability could be) while then saying that orc me wouldn't bother reading the op after finding the same passage that was in my role pm. So what I'm surprised about is how you can't see it being possible. Let me explain to you MY REAL thought-process at the beginning of the game: I open my role pm, see it's a shitty vanilla village role. I go to the OP, skim through it real quick and notice my role is show along with what looked like another vanilla village role and a vanilla mafia role. I did not take the time to read the second part after that because I didn't think there was anything important to me as a villager. Thus when I expressed my concern earlier about the orc vote, I can attest that I had not went back to the OP to take a look at it again. I had forgotten that passage even existed. Yes that's carelessness on my part as a villager, yes that makes me look scummy, and yes I am making an idiot of myself more by bringing light to that, but it's fact and that's what happened.


In regards to LonelyNess, I'm keeping my vote on him because so far he has not done anything redeeming in regards to the whole LW vs him situation. I legitimately do not believe in anyway at this point that LightWolf is scum and I think LW has done more than enough to defend himself and prove that he is in fact village.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Celever do be a dear and tell me I'm not the only having a deja vu here?
Hmm...

I've been out most of the day today, but coming home and reading through this thread and I 100% believe that LW is right here. LonelyNess, you are literally being me in the RNG NOC a month or so ago; I was mafia and waas arguing with LW over the littlest things to try and gain trust of the town, and... Well, it worked. It really shouldn't have done, but it did! I think you might be trying a similar thing here...

Lynch LonelyNess

Sorry for not actually posting today yet. Like I said, I was out for... Well, almost all of today. I barely even checked smogon yesterday due to last minute essay writing, and don't remember if the day phase was actually happening then! >_>

Either way, I do think that LonelyNess is playing rather scummily. He is being quite aggressive, but not really in the LW way which is constructive aggression. I believe that LN is creating useless and pointless discussion today, and speculation over why someone/who killed RODAN in a game of over 40 players is imbecilic. He is picking a fight with an almost completely clean townie, taking attention away from any true scumhunting (which I did to let swf survive for longer in RNG NOC) and I believe he is panicking now that he has realized his plan has backfired.
 

Acklow

I am always tired. Don't bother me.
And let me add that I did not intend to really pay a whole lot of attention to this game prior to being dragged into this situation, which is why I joked and played the way I did early on. I didn't like my role and I planned on staying uninvolved unless I really needed to worry about contributing (it's really hard to in this big of a game as Paperblade pointed out himself). The only reason I didn't sub out is because I'm active on the boards enough that I figure US wouldn't be happy if I withdrew.
 

vonFiedler

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It's ironic how you say it isn't possible that village me wouldn't read the next paragraph (and voiced his concern over what the ability could be) while then saying that orc me wouldn't bother reading the op after finding the same passage that was in my role pm. So what I'm surprised about is how you can't see it being possible. Let me explain to you MY REAL thought-process at the beginning of the game: I open my role pm, see it's a shitty vanilla village role. I go to the OP, skim through it real quick and notice my role is show along with what looked like another vanilla village role and a vanilla mafia role. I did not take the time to read the second part after that because I didn't think there was anything important to me as a villager.
One scenario is faaaar more believable than the other. You got your mafia role pm, read it thoroughly. You looked at the OP, read the village stuff thoroughly. You got to the orc part, your brain said "yeah yeah I've read this part", and then you stuffed it all in the vault. This isn't careless, it's quite natural. Billy is accusing you of not reading the OP like it was a legal contract, not being careless. How many players can attest to only skimming the same CP rules we've had since forever?

Suggesting you wouldn't bother reading what the mafia's ability is, even when you were clearly curious about it, asinine. Hell, when you first asked about the orc voting ability my first thought was "what does he hope to get out of such a discussion except to imply he doesn't know", but that didn't make much sense cause we all knew what the ability was.
 

Acklow

I am always tired. Don't bother me.
But the problem is that this is a scenario you and billymills conjured up. I only became curious about the it later after Night 1 purely on the basis that RODAN had somehow "mysteriously" died and people were trying to figure it out. I thought that there was a chance that the orc had a vote inspect ability or something like that ala Everyone Votes Mafia.
 

Acklow

I am always tired. Don't bother me.
I'm sorry, but I really didn't know. And I know that sounds "asinine," but it's fact. The hell would I know anyway, I have a vanilla village role.
 

LightWolf

lightwoof
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Thank you Celever, I knew I could count on you(and I always argue for others pointing out points favourable to you being far more impactful)

Now then, in addition to what Celever said, LN's first move when called out on focusing me solely was well exactly what Celever did really, attack the inactive guy, one inactive guy in a 40 man game with what maybe 15 people actually posting?

Now onto your specific points LN. Firstly I'm not being defensive, well not in the way you are suggesting I am. I'm disproving all your arguments against me trying to think of every angle to make sure you got no actual point, then I take the obviously flimsy mistakes that just don't make sense coming from a village LN and throwing them at you. I'd argue what I'm doing is countering, I'm more of a reactive player really. Putting the pointless discussion on what to specify my playstyle as, I'm always stupidly detailed when responding to anything that calls my alignment into question, past NOCs should be proof of that, so that is in no way indication of my faction.

Now onto the taking risks, and killing RODAN because I got nothing but the BG and the other BG claiming to me in this scenario. This goes back into my previous reply as to why it makes little sense to off RODAN while I don't have a claim from the other BG(which I followed by presenting proof that I 100% have a Legolas claim). So why would I, put my position at risk, when all I knew from the village were apparently a bunch of vanillas and 2/2 BGs? I'd think it was completely unreasonable not to wait for more claims. As for my risk taking and mentality, I think I made my thinking clear in past games, be it NOC or OC. In the last Big game I argued as far as sacrificing askaninjask with an extremely small mafia team just to keep the village in check longer and I highly discouraged any unvillage like moves for our mole(Which were generally overruled because the village wasn't paying much attention at that point and we killed off the brains already, so I concede that it didn't really matter), my postgame post should reflect this as well. As for NOC, I actually sacrificed askaninjask in on NOC by starting a lynch on him when I went back and discovered suspicious patterns emerge on him. Yeah I'm fairly low on risk taking unless I feel I need themk, say I'm going solo, so I guess that leaves me as a wolf, well I'd say it's fairly insane to kill the BG as a wolf when the mafia would be instantly gunning for me afterwards, don't you think?

As for the orc ability discussion, I will admit I failed to read the paragraph after the orc PM... On the other hand I also failed to read either of the villager ones too as far as abilities go and it took me a while to realise the rohirrim were in the op... I guess that makes this a poor comparison.
 

Ullar

card-carrying wife-guy
is a Smogon Discord Contributor
While I agree with von and LW about Acklow and LN, respectively, I don't want to simply parrot them. As such, I will simply say that LN is indeed exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to harmful Inquisitor-ing against the village. He has homed in on every tiny little thing that LW has said, with very little proof.

As for you, Acklow...getting nervous? A little hot under the collar? You should be. You're a tad suspicious right now - possibly moreso than LN.

Vote Acklow

While it is possible you're a vanillager as you claimed, I find the odds of somebody slipping up like that twice in one game very slim.
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
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Even if you didn't know Acklow, and assumed that everyone didn't as a result, then why did you even bring it up? The mafia wouldn't just tell a villager what their abilities do, so this line of thought has no purpose except to shout "I, Acklow, am not part of the mafia".
 

Acklow

I am always tired. Don't bother me.
While I agree with von and LW about Acklow and LN, respectively, I don't want to simply parrot them. As such, I will simply say that LN is indeed exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to harmful Inquisitor-ing against the village. He has homed in on every tiny little thing that LW has said, with very little proof.

As for you, Acklow...getting nervous? A little hot under the collar? You should be. You're a tad suspicious right now - possibly moreso than LN.

Vote Acklow

While it is possible you're a vanillager as you claimed, I find the odds of somebody slipping up like that twice in one game very slim.
I'm not nervous, I'm just taken back by the fact that people are too stubborn to realize that it was Acklow making Acklow mistakes.

Even if you didn't know Acklow, and assumed that everyone didn't as a result, then why did you even bring it up? The mafia wouldn't just tell a villager what their abilities do, so this line of thought has no purpose except to shout "I, Acklow, am not part of the mafia".
I already explained: for speculation. I thought other members of the village would be able to offer insight. I did not think a moment of theorymoning would be a problem, but apparently it is.
 

LonelyNess

Makin' PK Love
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Lynch Acklow

Lynching out of self preservation, more than anything. Sorry, Acklow, I honestly have no opinion on your scumminess.. If I do in fact get lynched, when I turn up townie, give my regards to mafiawolf.

Not sure how anything I've said can be considered "scummy". I raised concerns, Lightwolf met them. Yes, I was aggressive in my assertions. That is the type of player I am. It isn't indicative of faction because it's the exact same way I play every single game. If any attempt at raising discussion vs. the apparently now village leader Lightwolf can be considered mafia behavior, I question the direction your logic follows.
 
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Imanalt

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Lynch Acklow

Lynching out of self preservation, more than anything. Sorry, Acklow, I honestly have no opinion on your scumminess.. If I do in fact get lynched, when I turn up townie, give my regards to mafiawolf.

Not sure how anything I've said can be considered "scummy". I raised concerns, Lightwolf met them. Yes, I was aggressive in my assertions. That is the type of player I am. It isn't indicative of faction because it's the exact same way I play every single game. If any attempt at raising discussion vs. the apparently now village leader Lightwolf can be considered mafia behavior, I question the direction your logic follows.
Unvote, Vote LonelyNess

Flat out admitting you're voting in self defense to lynch someone you don't think is mafia is pretty fucking scummy. And the reason people are calling the questions you raised of LW scummy is because of how much you felt like you were pulling at straws, trying to find any rationale that he would be scummy, when the logic didn't hold up.
 

zorbees

Chwa for no reason!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
While I don't think a lynch on Metal Sonic is warranted, this seems even less called for. How someone acted in other games is no way grounds for them being clean or not, he could replicate his behavior on either team.\
I agree with what you're saying. The fact that Metal Sonic is being similar to his games in the past are no indicator to him being village or mafia. My lynch post on Aura Guardian didn't intend to imply that Metal Sonic was town, rather, that bandwagoning onto a lynch of him made little sense.

Imanalt: I think self-defense is a valid lynch response when it comes close to deadline and the realistic options shrink. If LonelyNess is town, he 100% knows he is town, whereas he only has his reads to go off of on Acklow. Since he doesn't know Acklow is 100% town, it statistically makes sense to lynch Acklow rather than himself.

regarding the acklow situation: I can buy this as being a mistake, rather than a scumtell. I think the people saying it is scummy are either scummy themselves, or just foolish villagers.

Metal Sonic: 100% agree that Aura is my top suspect atm, none of his several posts have been helpful at all in my opinion. I will keep my vote on Aura Guardian until further notice.
 

askaninjask

[FLAIL ARMS]
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I like both the LN lynch and the Acklow lynch. I wonder if we can kill both with the Rohirrim power.

I would also like an AG lynch / more discussion on AG because he's been acting uncharacteristically dumb in this game.

Upside did eventually respond to my post with an understandably defensive tone, and I'm not clearing myself of suspicion from him but it seems like a) nobody else is interested in Upside for whatever reason (?) and b) his last post was fine so I'm going to unvote him.

Acklow's tone throughout all of this seems to be too light (exclamation marks, etc). Shouldn't he be angrier / more desperate that he's going to be mislynched if he's a villager?

So for now Vote Acklow but I would not mind seeing a LN lynch or a Rohirrim play.
 

Ditto

/me huggles
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Using the Rohirrim power would probably require them to out themselves and that'd be horrible for us. I don't see how we could play it off as something else.
 

zorbees

Chwa for no reason!
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askaninjask Do you think you could rank your lynch targets in terms of likeliest to be scum, I don't really like the fact that you seem fine with any of the 3. I'm guessing Acklow is #1 due to your current vote though...
 

Acklow

I am always tired. Don't bother me.
Two things:

First: I find it hilarious that we managed to get 4 (and now 5 with mine) minesweeper avatars posting in a row.

Second: Why should I be acting angry or desperate??? lol
 

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