np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Dark G]

Damn, this thread moved fast. I'll offer my two cents (and keep it short as i'm sure what i'm about to say has already been said and fear infraction lol)
At this stage in the metagame, it is clear that Aegislash is the undisputed king of OU. While I don't think Aegislash is necessarily broken per se, it over-centralizes OU and is not healthy for the metagame.
It will be interesting to see how OU will evolve without it as Aegislash (along with Thundy-I) are the two pokemon that keep alot of the biggest treats at bay

 

[ginganinja]

The problem with this, ginganinja, is that the next big metagame shift will happen before we're done getting through all the "and now we have to ban X", JUST LIKE what happened last gen where there wasn't enough time to suspect test all the crap that kept causing problems because of how that metagame was handled. Why is that problem not worth considering?

Because why on earth would you WANT to keep something in the game, that (hypothetically speaking), would be proven to be unhealthy. Technically speaking, we did it your way in BW when we didn't directly solve the "Rain issue" in BW1, which was a hugely centralising force in the metagame. I really don't care if something is keeping pokemon x, y and z checked. If its declared "uber", then following that logic its unhealthy for the metagame, thus, its standing in the way of improving a metagame in such a way as to make it more enjoyable.

I don't really want to discuss this further, because this IS our policy, period. If you want to continue this particular debate, kindly PM OU Suspect Member Haunter (and the OU administrator) for complete reasoning on our suspect test policy. If it gets drawn back into this thread, I'll simply delete the posts to prevent derailment.

Have a nice day.

 

[white9old]

I am not seeing any objective argument as to why these pokemon should be entitled to more optimal coverage. In what way does letting Mega Pinsir run Close Combat improve the metagame to such an extent that we should *ban a pokemon* to make it happen? In what way is Earthquake so debilitating a concession for its carriers to make that in Aegislash-free matchups they find themselves pulling no weight? (this was a major concern with BP counters, which were niche to the point of ineffectuality outside that matchup.) We complain that Aegislash demands pokemon go out of their way to deal with it, but they DO deal with it, with collateral that borders on negligible and which no one has proven bad enough to ban a pokemon over (no, letting pinsir 2HKO skarmory is never going to convince me Aegislash has to go lol what the fuck)

As far as the broken shit countering broken shit thing, well, that's a complicated topic I'm sad to see dismissed so firmly. It'd be great if "broken shit" were as precise a designation as some tiering leaders make it sound. What we have, however, is a metagame in which brokenness is 100% relative. The tiering process wants to identify pokemon that are broken independent of all other metagame elements, and this is seemingly obviously impossible since one pokemon's "brokenness" is directly related to how well other pokemon in the tier can deal with it, and because these powerful pokemon help deal with other powerful ones every eviction from the metagame kind of tautologically MAKES other pokemon broken which weren't before (no, not all broken pokemon are simply 'present' in the metagame throughout all suspect processes, which seems to be a prevailing banning mentality). This is a MAJOR reason to be extremely cautious and deliberate about suspecting. That there is any controversy at all about Aegislash suggests that it should stay, at least for now. I just kept all the stuff important to this post

Its not that aegislash should be banned to allow for the mons you mentioned become more powerful, these examples show how Aegislash over-centralizes some of the most powerful and "potentially" broken sweepers to deal with it. In my opinion, over-centralization towards dealing with a mon is equal to saying that said mon is overpowered, especially when it over centralizes things that over-centralize the metagame (bird spam anyone). It shows how aegislash has such a profound role in shaping how match ups are made, have multiple counters, including in your set-up sweepers that should be going out once everything might possibly get in there way(like aegislash) is removed allowing them to sweep. Lets take a quote from the Pinsir analysis:

Close Combat is] another option for a coverage move on Mega Pinsir, as it hits Steel- and Rock-types while also being able to do solid damage to Rotom-W. However, not being able to touch Aegislash is a very bad thing

Bascially what people have been saying regarding Pinsir for the past few pages. But lets compare that to a later section of the analysis.

Faster priority users or faster Pokemon that resist Quick Attack are solid checks to Mega Pinsir. Talonflame is about as good of an offensive check to Mega Pinsir as you can hope for, as it can outspeed Mega Pinsir and OHKO it with Gale Wings Brave Bird even when using an Adamant nature. Weavile is also faster and can use Ice Shard to deal massive damage to Mega Pinsir. Although it isn't a damaging move, Thundurus is able to utilize its faster Prankster Thunder Wave in order to cripple Mega Pinsir, and it can even take one boosted Quick Attack and OHKO with Thunderbolt. Mamoswine has enough natural bulk to take a boosted Quick Attack and strike back with its own priority Ice Shard. Choice Scarf Tyranitar can outspeed and KO Mega Pinsir, and it even has the bulk to tank an unboosted Earthquake if it happens to miss Stone Edge. Similarly, Raikou and Mega Manectric can both outspeed and revenge kill Mega Pinsir without fearing its Quick Attack.

This details many of the pokemon who can deal well with Pinsir. Notice a difference. One tells you exactly why said mon counters/checks Pinsir, and one implies you know why it is a problem for Pinsir. The qc council feels its important that you know why TALONFLAME of all things can counter pinsir, but leave it implied that you know why not being able to deal with Aegislash is bad. This shows how much of a force the sheild is.(if any of this arguement didn't make sense, im sorry, my logical paths are a bit wonky from time to time)

Also in regard to broken checking broken, how broken is the thing that is able to check/overcentralize a massive amount of potenitally broken mons. Obviously, very, or else it wouldn't be able to do that.

 

[Ningildo]

Ok, here we go...

I've read a bit through this thread and while I won't be voting anytime soon (lol, OU's been pretty shitty imo for a while now and I'm not gonna play it now), I've seen some pretty flawed arguments from both sides:

Pro-ban:
Unpredictability: I really, really, REALLY hate this argument as a good part of OU relies on being unpredictable in order to succeed. Yeah, it can run a number of sets and you have to sack one mon to find out what. While that is pretty fucked up and undesirable, it isn't always the case. As people have said, Aegislash can run a number of roles, but these roles need to be needed for it to be present on a team. Would a team seem incredibly weak to Hippo and Mandibuzz if Aegis wasn't SubToxic? Is Bisharp going to tear a new one through the opponent's team if Aegislash just isn't a speedy variant with Sacred Sword? Unless your opponent actually is a bad teambuilder, you should kind of think of those possibilities when mentioning arguments (like these) that are made based on high level play. I mean, you can say it has sets that screw counters to other sets and that Aegislash's offensive presence on both sides of the spectrum make it pretty ridiculous all you want, but if you can't even bother to check the opposing team's weaknesses (that may be mitigated if this one pokemon had that set) in high level play, I'm not sure for how much the unpredictability argument holds up.

Centralization: This is a very fine line in every suspect test, and this one isn't an exception. Threats are supposed to be accounted for, but to what point should penalties for not doing so be seen as okay? If a team autoloses to threat X because they lacked a direct answer to it, is it because threat X is so ridiculously strong that you NEED a counter or you are screwed? Or is it because, despite threat X having a colorful amount of viable counters, that there are simply too many threats to take in account? Will this inflation of threats with each generation's passing eventually lead to a huge amount of bans in order to have a balanced competitive metagame at all? A bit of fluff, sorry. But I have a issue with this argument too, it being the fact that EVERYTHING has some sort of degree of centralization. Especially in a case like Talonflame, who's presence requires EVERY team, Offensive and Defensive alike, to have a plan, as it's revenge killing prowess has lowered the viability of some threats, while making others completely irrelevant. This is also very bad, as now, one slot in my team NEEDS to be a Talonflame check/counter, lest I get swept due my team being part of the 99% of Offensive mons that the bird revenges without breaking a sweat. The threat of Talonflame has reduced the viability of some pokemon, if not outright removing them from relevance. We shouldn't let something that diversity limiting be here, now should we? Flaw pointing aside, I do think that Aegislash forces most mons to make room for coverage for it and makes some mons irrelevant. The unpredictability is a factor to this, as you need to counter Aegislash (or have a plan) in order not to get walled/swept by it, something that is hard to do if you don't know it's set and, thus, don't know if your counter is a counter at all. However, the issue of not knowing is already addressed above, so the only thing that remains is it's influence on other pokemon in the meta, which is in most cases merely a swap of a move that for most is not really an issue and is a sign of pokemon adapting to a top tier threat (Scizor's DPP era had more things, such Babiri berry DDtar with Fire Punch if you felt like screwing with the then #1 threat). Obviously, being in the way of some things from being usable has already been addressed as well.

Smaller things i have an issue with:
Ridiculous offenses in 150/150 is huge...just like Kyurem-B's base 170 Attack. What I'm pointing out is that OU is no stranger to extremely strong attackers and has worked it's way around these. Mixed offenses coupled with the already addressed unpredictability does make it hard to know what to switch in, but already pointed out why unpredictability is a bad argument.

There's also the King's Shield 50/50 in favor of the Aegislash user...I don't even want to point out that is a clear contradiction. These are mindgames that rely on skill (or rather, the lucky guess) and are present in many more scenarios than just this. Remember that a coinflip can go both ways (unless you're like me and get hit by 4 Zap Cannons in a row in the Battle Maison) and that the cost of screwing up for the Aegislash user is a dead (a bit ironic) sword and a world of worries less for you.

Scouting revenge killers while using a Protect esque move? That sounds like...exactly like using Protect on anything that does use it. Not really a useful thing to point out.


Anti-ban:
It counters other possibly broken threats!: Keeping something in the tier while it's possibly broken just to counter otherwise broken threats is a flawed argument, as eventually the game would be revolving around Aegislash, things that can wreck the tier without Aegislash, and Aegislash counters/trappers/lures. If threats turn out to be broken after a suspect has been banned, then they will be on the chopping block for the sake of balancing. If it's broken, it gets tossed the fuck away, because nobody likes a broken toy. Additionally, the meta might shift as other things that Aegislash pressures out of the tier might make a reemergence and turn out to counter upcoming threats. It's impossible to say that the latter will happen for certain, however, so don't quote me on that.

Making comparisons to other metagames: I'm not sure how this works unless you actually played the meta you are referencing to. And even so, it should only be a part of your argument, not the entirety of it, as meta's can change wildly over the ages (just look from DPP to BW), so situations are never the same in one meta as in the other.


Sorry for a lack of Anti-ban flaws, but I'm tired right now and can't continue to read the thread for more flawed arguments. My two cents.

 

[Flarowak]

I have to say I"m not really sure why banning Aegislash would be necessary. I do understand how people could be frustrated with it, or see how it is really amazing, but I don't feel it is really banworthy. As someone who has been at both ends of the barrel, I don't really think that he should be banned due to the simple fact that his 50/50's are so risky. If you make the right read or prediction you can pretty much wreck shop, it only takes one turn for an opponent to ruin it's day. I like the mind game it adds to the meta and feel that it should stay to make players think twice about what they want to do. Although I would love to see Hawlucha climb the ranks of OU, I don't feel like banning Aegislash is the way to go about it. It has plenty of checks and counters to deal with it, and as long as people play correctly around him he can be dealt with.

 

[gnr61]

Its not that aegislash should be banned to allow for the mons you mentioned become more powerful, these examples show how Aegislash over-centralizes some of the most powerful and "potentially" broken sweepers to deal with it. In my opinion, over-centralization towards dealing with a mon is equal to saying that said mon is overpowered, especially when it over centralizes things that over-centralize the metagame (bird spam anyone). It shows how aegislash has such a profound role in shaping how match ups are made, have multiple counters, including in your set-up sweepers that should be going out once everything might possibly get in there way(like aegislash) is removed allowing them to sweep. Lets take a quote from the Pinsir analysis:



Bascially what people have been saying regarding Pinsir for the past few pages. But lets compare that to a later section of the analysis.



This details many of the pokemon who can deal well with Pinsir. Notice a difference. One tells you exactly why said mon counters/checks Pinsir, and one implies you know why it is a problem for Pinsir. The qc council feels its important that you know why TALONFLAME of all things can counter pinsir, but leave it implied that you know why not being able to deal with Aegislash is bad. This shows how much of a force the sheild is.(if any of this arguement didn't make sense, im sorry, my logical paths are a bit wonky from time to time)

Also in regard to broken checking broken, how broken is the thing that is able to check/overcentralize a massive amount of potenitally broken mons. Obviously, very, or else it wouldn't be able to do that.

This brings me to the thought experiment at the beginning of the post: if there were 10 pokemon comprising the same usage as Aegislash for which Pinsir needed to run Earthquake, it would be simply accepted as essential coverage. The fact that it's one and not 10 targets really just makes it easier for the Pinsir player in the end lol. I know "overcentralizing" is a visceral reaction to this and it may be true that Aegislash's unique presence in the metagame is as profound as a Type or widely distributed move, but the mere fact that it has a huge impact and must be constantly accounted for doesn't even remotely point to "broken" so long as it CAN be easily and viably accounted for, which is why i find the coverage argument so weak.

 

[Pagoose]

Just pointing out pinsir still can't beat skarmory even with cc. It does 50-60% at +2 iirc, then dies to counter. The best it can do is sd up to +6 and bring it down to sturdy.

 

[Vizia-Ihael]

I'll post in my stand to Aegislash being banned or unbanned.
My vote would be Ban.
Here are some of my reasons why~
Versatility. Even though it possesses a relatively small movepool, Aegislash has everything in its arsenal to be considered a Pokemon of versatility, not only versatile but performs these multiple roles excellently. It has the Tank, SubToxic, LO, StanceDance, or the niche Autotomize+LO set that every single one of these perform really really well. All of its sets have different counters, which adds up to said versatility. And not only movepool, it has versatile stats by virtue of King's Shield which caters to your needs during a specific situation.
Stats. This may not be a good argument, but it certainly adds up to Aegislash's broken and unpredictability factor. It has a pseudo-BST of 720 which essentially allows it to transform between a Deoxys-D and Deoxys-A at will, and even though it has a low HP stat it is still bulky as hell. Its Speed is mostly an advantage for it, since it generally wants to underspeed threats then retailiate with higher damage.
50/ 50s. King's Shield is the sole reason Aegislash is so gamebreaking, that sometimes with a single mispredict it costs you the whole match. It's either you attack it and if you're a physical attacker, you risk -2 or you're given the option to run the suboptimal Earthquake, or you set-up on its face then it surprise attacks you and you lose. It may also utilize Substitute which doubles its protection, and the fact that the sword needs extremely powerful attacks to take it down is just unreal.
Lack of counters. You may say that Mandibuzz, Amoonguss, Hippowdon, and Bisharp are counters to it but no, you're wrong. They're merely checks, and most of the time they are close in faltering to accomplish it. All of them have problems with multiple sets, Mandibuzz and Hippo doesn't like Toxic at all, speedy variants of Aegislash take care of Bisharp while Amoonguss is just shaky. It's either the only thing they can do is switch in and watch Aegislash switch out or eat up two consecutive attacks with the risk of dying. Sorry, but with a bit of prior damage or at least no prior damage at all spells doom for these 'checks'.
Overcentralizing. Aegislash is a Pokemon that is almost mandatory to prepare for, and even if you prepare for it there will almost always be something it will do that will pivot its team to victory. You can't deny that Aegislash has never been productive in a match, it will do something. The thing is, Aegislash is sometimes forcing Pokemon like Terrakion to run Earthquake instead of a better move just to get past it. Almost all teams need to prepare for it, which is plain scary and sometimes inserting random Knock Off users isn't good at all since most of the time Aegislash will be scouting on super effective hits thrown at it.
Inherent advantages. Aegislash puts a lot of teams in a major advantage most of the time match-up wise, because of its very good combination of bulk, power, pivoting capabilities, versatility, good typing, and it's literally the perfect specimen of competitive Pokemon that graced the XY OU Meta.
After all this, I'm leaning towards Ban.
Let Aegislash simply be a ghost of the past, Ban to Ubers.

 

[mertyville]

Mega Pinsir without CC is missing on Skarmory?

CC
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 95-112 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 188-222 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Aerilate +2
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While the same can be said about EQ, one would ask why we won't just ban Mega Venusaur because it forces mons to run unnessacary psychic type moves on Greninja or even Thundurus.

Besides that, some people don't put much efford into their pro-ban arguments.

We didn't see Hydreigon getting banned last gen for not having any hard counters, while I agree that it is not as comparable to Aegislash in terms of sets it can run, it was still difficult to switch into bringing to following senarios:
1. Let my pokemon which is currently on the field die
2. Sac a pokemon
3. Predict a centain move (50/50) and switch to the best possible check

So in 1 and 2 you lose a pokemon either way, 3 is basicly a so called coinflip

Maybe some won't see Hydreigon much of a threat because of either faster and more powerful Dragons like Garchomp, you come to a similar senario.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Thoughts on the suspect ladder:

- Medicham and Gardevoir aren't as common as initially believed. I mean, more common than before, but teams are prepared for them, and Aegislash isn't the only thing that can fight them.
- Heracross is nowhere to be seen, because:
- BIRDSPAM. BIRDSPAM EVERYWHERE. Interestingly enough, I still haven't seen a Pinsir, but that was probably just my luck, because Talonflame is on 80% of the teams, often paired with a Staraptor. Without an Aegislash, stopping these two is a major problem.

 

[Nattori]

If the question is whether Aegislash itself is broken I don't think it would be were it not for King's Shield. From what I have read in this
I doubt I'll get the COIL to participate in the vote but if I do I would vote to not ban until KS has been suspect tested, because I don't think Aegi is broken, I think KS makes it that way. Personally I would love to see what effect there is on Aegi sets with no KS.

Someone already explained why we can't just suspect King Shield...

Seriously why suspect the only fucking move that is essentially a part of him and define him, furthermore he needs it to activate his ability: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stance_Change_(Ability) Everyone who says "Suspect KS" seems to forget that you can't suspect it without suspecting Aegislash as a whole because of this reason. Fun fact: It is how he was made to work! Got it? Good!

 

[Jaiho]

People have been completely ignoring Aegislash's battle prowess and complete grip on the tier. In Pre-bank, Aegislash was believed to be 100% broken, but then people began (over)preparing for it, and it seemed to fall off the potential suspect list. Shit like Bisharp and Mandibuzz first rose to prominence because they could take Aegislash 1v1. And post bank M-Luke, Deo-S, and Gene stole its spotlight. So the fact that Aegislash is dumb on so many levels has been ignored. For one, Aegi has so many sets that no single 'mon can counter it, and it is literally a problem for every single team archetype. Stall 'mons like Mandibuzz and Hippowdon that could beat more offensive sets are fucked by SubToxic, and offense can't switch into SD sets or LO sets (the Crumbler). Secondly, the amount of effort a team has to go through to handle Aegi is unparalleled. Knock Off on stuff like Azu, Landy-T , Torn-T, and M-Scizor, EQ on every physically based 'mon and even some special attack ones, Dark Pulse Greninja, Fire Punch M-Medicham, Shadow Ball M-Garde, SpDef Hippo, Assault Vest Conkeldurr, Chesnaught's prescence in the tier, CBBNite's rise to fame, and others. 'Mons that should be tearing through the tier like M-Medicham and MegaCross are thrust into the wayside, and M-Garde, Terrakion, and Breloom had such rocky starts this gen specifically because they can't beat Aegislash. Excadrill is the only good spinner in the tier, because the other offensive spinner, Starmie, is wrecked by Aegislash. And for fucks sake, there must be a problem when GENGAR of all things has been relegated to a support role. This is such a centralized metagame because it focuses on Aegislash, what beats it, and what beats those. Its just not as clear because the meta has adapted to Aegi's presence, the same way the tier would if Darkrai or Giratina was OU. And yes, banning Aegi would open the floodgates for more suspects. But its Smogon philosophy to not keep broken things to keep other broken things in check. If Azumarill is broken now, lets ban it. If Medicham is broken now, lets ban it. Lets not kid ourselves into thinking that XY OU isn't an ass meta atm. Banning Aegi may not solve the problem completely, but it would certainly help towards achieving an ideal metagame. That is why Aegislash deserves to be banned.

 

[ARandomNoob]

on topic! aegislash is fucking retarded. it has 4 stats equivalent to kyogres spatk and one of its 2 mediocre stats works in its favor as 99% of the time it will shrug off whatever hit with those monstrous defenses and hit back with equally ridiculous offenses which makes it stupidly hard to deal with. ive been watching a lot of wcop battles and it is just powerful to the point of absurdity. played a few matches on suspect ladder and not seeing aegis has been a blessing, in fact outside of a few mons that are as bad as aegis (zardx mawile thundurus), i actually enjoyed a few of the games i played. with a few more bans this meta should become good and it looks like we are on the way there excellent work fellows!!!

I'd agree with most of this except that all you need is physical SE with at least 50 or 60 BP and Aegi is dead if you catch it in Blade Forme. Maybe trick a Ring Target onto it and try Vital throw or something after a KS? Vital throw ensures you move after it attacks, then all you have to do is survive whatever base 80 move it throws at you and then bam, you bend it's blade into a plowshare. Personally, considering that Aegi has an Achilles heel bigger than the Empire State in Blade Forme, I'd much rather deal with that.

I know people say it forces Pinsir to run EQ and not a close combat. Why not both? Unless there's 3 moves Mega Pinsir needs to have that aren't Close Combat, I do t see why you can't run both. SD, Return, CC, EQ. Hit rocks and fires and grounded steels or Heatran with EQ, Skarm and Roty with +2 CC, oh look and you can apply the intimate pressure to Aegi as an added bonus. When Pinsir runs EQ, even SubToxic Aegi ends up not being a match for it.

I know people say that whatever Hercross hits with EQ it can hit with its 5 hits. But the 5 hits rarely have perfect accuracy like EQ does. Doesn't matter if Pin Missile kills TTar if it just misses and lets TTar stomp you.

 

[Eik00c]

Hmm.. I've used Mega Pinsir plenty and have never used Earthquake for anything, but Aegislash. And it's hardly thwarted by Earthquake omnipresence, it's still the best mon in OU regardless. Plus, the only reason a bunch of mons are running EQ for coverage is because they're too scared to give Aegislash a free switch in.

Heatran would like to speak with you.

Also, Aegis doesn't like taking SE hits because, for one, it shortens its longevity and two, it has no reliable recovery (not including Lefties or Rest, obv).

 

[Fortune]

Heatran would like to speak with you.

Also, Aegis doesn't like taking SE hits because, for one, it shortens its longevity and two, it has no reliable recovery (not including Lefties or Rest, obv).

252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 312-368 (80.8 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

plus jolly mega pinsir can sd on a heatran switch-in. if not, lava plume only has a 25% chance to ohko.

point is, you speak as if tran would be a hard counter to mega pinsir if it didn't carry eq. this is false.

also rest is not a reliable recovery option, kek.

 

[ARandomNoob]

252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 312-368 (80.8 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

plus jolly mega pinsir can sd on a heatran switch-in. if not, lava plume only has a 25% chance to ohko.

also rest is not a reliable recovery option, kek.

And why am I taking a 56.3 chance to insta win the matchup when it's Quad Weak to EQ and will need some serious defense investment or boosts to not be OHKO'd due to EQ's BP of 100?

 

[Fortune]

And why am I taking a 56.3 chance to insta win the matchup when it's Quad Weak to EQ and will need some serious defense investment or boosts to not be OHKO'd due to EQ's BP of 100?

because if aegi was out of the meta, cc would be a much better coverage option than eq. did you even read?

also go back and read my edit.

 

[Baharoth]

I'm going to ignore the misinformed personal attacks and utter disregard of what I'm trying to say in your last post due to personal bias and just respond to this post, which is your core argument. You cannot get better at a 50/50. That literally defies logic, you don't have a clue if you're telling me this. 50/50 = 50% of guessing right and 50% of guessing wrong. You cannot get better at a (basically) blind guess like this.

Nobody said that one can get better at 50/50. The problem with your argument is that all the examples you brought in your first post arent 50/50s at all. I already explained it with Sub Kyub and its the same with chomp and your other examples, thats as much a 50/50 as a predicted double switch.

0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 50-60 (15.4 - 18.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery (assuming Physically Defense, if using Specially Defensive then SD sets walk over it)

It doesn't even break SubToxic's Substitute, and:

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Amoonguss: 193-228 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

It can setup the Substitute while you attempt to Spore / Foul Play it and then proceed to kill it w/ Shadow Ball (or leave it with massive amounts of health lost). ANd for god's sake can people stop saying Head Smash is a shitty gimmick? I've used Swords Dance Aegislash countless times and I can tell you that Head Smash is not a shitty gimmick at all. It's a shitty gimmick when used incorrectly, example being on just any set. It really excels on SD sets to lure in its usual checks (think Mandibuzz, Landorus-T) and utterly smash them. Sure, it cause recoil, but Swords Dance Aegislash comes in and just unleashes an onslaught, so it really doesn't even matter half of the time. So, you can't say that Amoonguss 'completely handles', because SubToxic sets can beat it, along with Swords Dance variants. Not to mention that all it can do is Spore it, if lacking Foul Play. It eventually gets worn down...

Amoonguss has 30 base speed and is therefore ALWAYS slower than Aegi and will hit it in Blade form where breaking the sub is no problem at all, furthermore it usually runs full SpD so Shadowball is far away from a 2hko even with Life orb.

 

[Fortune]

EQ still hits Heatran harder and will always be better than CC. No drawbacks, 100% accuracy! and a huge BP to boot! Not only that, Heatran is quad weak to ground while it's not so with CC. 100x4 = 400 BP(EQ)

120x 3 (SE and stab) = 360 BP (CC)

Which one is hitting harder? I think the answer is clear.

yep, i think we can just disregard anything this man is saying.

 

[Jukain]

I'd agree with most of this except that all you need is physical SE with at least 50 or 60 BP and Aegi is dead if you catch it in Blade Forme. Maybe trick a Ring Target onto it and try Vital throw or something after a KS? Vital throw ensures you move after it attacks, then all you have to do is survive whatever base 80 move it throws at you and then bam, you bend it's blade into a plowshare. Personally, considering that Aegi has an Achilles heel bigger than the Empire State in Blade Forme, I'd much rather deal with that.

I know people say it forces Pinsir to run EQ and not a close combat. Why not both? Unless there's 3 moves Mega Pinsir needs to have that aren't Close Combat, I do t see why you can't run both. SD, Return, CC, EQ. Hit rocks and fires and grounded steels or Heatran with EQ, Skarm and Roty with +2 CC, oh look and you can apply the intimate pressure to Aegi as an added bonus. When Pinsir runs EQ, even SubToxic Aegi ends up not being a match for it.

I know people say that whatever Hercross hits with EQ it can hit with its 5 hits. But the 5 hits rarely have perfect accuracy like EQ does. Doesn't matter if Pin Missile kills TTar if it just misses and lets TTar stomp you.

EQ does crap to TTar and there's a move called CC. Also Pinsir needs Quick Attack.

Aegi has had a lot argument going back and forth this whole time.

People want to ban aegi cause it can get around potential counters and checks by running different set it's great stats, exceptional coverage and access to a move that makes oppenents squirm.
The people who don't want to ban aegis brought up the power cap it provides (which we aren't allowed to talk about anymore). It's numerous checks on every team and the ability to get around the annoying kings shield.
This suspect test can go either way right now and I'm not sure how the meta will fare after aegis is gone for better or for worse. This ban could have healthy or unhealthy affects on the meta I'm not sure what xy ou will look for the next few months before ORAS comes out. Tbh this ban is less of a necessity as the deo or baton pass ban but really depends on what kind of meta we as a community desire.

Aegi is a metagame shaping force but so are other pokemon introduced in xy talonflame and the mega evolutions we see on most teams. As well as the mechanic changes introduced this gen such as the steel nerf and weather nerf. These mechanic changes have made the game much enjoyable than BW ou and mega evolution have made many more pokemon ou viable sure there are annoying things like talonflame and aegislash introduced this gen but we have adapted to them and build teams to handle these new threats.
This meta is way more diverse than something like black white. I think aegis contributes and hinders this versatility. I mean the sheer number of aegis checks give some mons like chesnaught and amoongus some good niches. Unfortunately the presence of aegis has reduced the number of viable rapid spinners in ou as well as destroy must psychic types viability (which is not just aegis fault tbh knock off spam is annoying). Overall I find this meta much more diverse in the kind of teams u face as well as the individual pokes u find on every team. Sure former ou all stars like starmie, jirachi, and celebi have fallen but overall more pokes are able to be used in ou and it is much better than something like BW where weather was omnipresent and every team needed a few slots dedicated to stopping it whether I be their own weather setter and few a mons that can take the weather boosted attacks. Overall xy is much more enjoyably to BW. These two being the only competitive metas I played .

I personally right now am leaning to keep aegis. As I personally like where he sits in the tier and have already stated my reasons. Every team I personally made has like two or three aegis counters or checks. This often depends on the set it runs. The set it is running is deciphered after a few moves by aegis and therefore it is pretty easy to scout for. I find aegi to be similar to the weather in BW. It is metagame defining and u do need a few checks to it (as well as bird spam another xy ou defining playstyle). We did not ban weather in BW ou even if it effected the viability of certain things and over centralized the meta to a point much worse than what aegi is currently doing. There will always be a poke, mechanic or playstyle that defines a meta and players have to prepare for them.

Having to carry 2-3 checks for one Pokemon is not healthy at all. Don't you find that constraining? I don't need 2-3 Talonflame checks (which is not more defining than Aegi...), but I need 2-3 Aegi checks. The fact that I need those slots makes building a competent team much much more difficult as you have these enormous constraints on teambuilding. Instead of needing Aegi check #1 Aegi check #2, you are free to use Pokemon that deal with broader mechanics/playstyles/different threats that you couldn't account for before. This enormous constraint on teambuilding makes it difficult to build for the current meta. I'm not saying building should be easy, because it will never be that much so, but that it shouldn't be so insanely limited by one Pokemon. A mechanic cannot define the meta, that literally defies logic, and there's nothing near the level of Aegislash to replace it. 'There will always be a core centralizing mon/playstyle' is flawed because neither DPP or ADV or even BW turned out that way. What's the best Pokemon in ADV or DPP or BW? You can name a couple that could take that title, but it's ultimately uncertain and your best Pokemon aren't ones requiring so many checks/counters per team nor centralizing at least nowhere near to the extent of Aegi. In what gen has there been something like Aegi where it's at like an S+ tier compared to the rest of the meta? GSC Snorlax, which is broken by today's standards? Obviously that's slight hyperbole and my knowledge of DPP and ADV is not extensive so tagging BKC to smack me if I have no clue and I'm actually wrong, but I've never heard anyone talk about either gen and speak of something and its effect on the meta like Aegi. There does not have to be one sole, centralizing force, that warps the meta, if it doesn't have to be there. That's what Genesect did in Gen 5, and that's what Aegislash does now. We banned the first and the tier was so much better for it. A couple checks for rain or bird spam is different because those are playstyles, making the coverage of those checks more broad and useful. Just because Aegi checks are useful vs other things (like every viable Pokemon in the tier ever) doesn't mean you don't have to to run them specifically for Aegi.

Anyways I've played a few battles of suspect OU and it's so much better. The rise of new Megas is honestly just hype that will die down as we adapt to them and more typical offensive playstyles that they have trouble with are more common. The lack of Aegi lets me run so many different teams that I've scrapped just because they simply have too much trouble with Aegi to be worth it. Things like Starmie, MGard, Terrak, MHera, and even like Hawlucha become a bit more viable allowing for more diverse teams. I will say that CC Mega Pinsir is kinda crazy lol but it still has answers defensively and plenty of offensive checks. It might not end up being fine in the long run but that's another problem to deal with then and not relevant to this! This meta is a large improvement, less 50/50s and XY is starting to become p good!

 

[Fortune]

Oh, is someone getting offended? EQ hits harder, and I just showed you why. Now you want to just ignore me because I actually just showed you something? Hitting a quad weakness with no drawbacks is always better than just a normal weakness with drawbacks, 10/10 times.

Edit: Fortune, just got majorly ninja'd.

oml the ignorance. please be a troll.

heatran doesn't define the metagame like aegi does. you don't need to carry a specific coverage move for every single pokemon. aegislash is one of the few exceptions. you can switch out on a heatran without worry unlike an aegislash. heatran actually has true counters unlike aegi.

i'm not trying to derail this thread so i think you should just stop, imo, js.

 

[Albacore]

Oh, is someone getting offended? EQ hits harder, and I just showed you why. Now you want to just ignore me because I actually just showed you something? Hitting a quad weakness with no drawbacks is always better than just a normal weakness with drawbacks, 10/10 times.

Edit: Fortune, just got majorly ninja'd.

There is this thing called Air Balloon Heatran. And although CC doesn't quite OHKO defensive Heatran, by late-game (which is when you should use it) it will probably be weakened enough to the point where CC takes it out. So no, EQ is not necessarily better to hit Heatran with than CC.

 

[procrastinat]

Oh, is someone getting offended? EQ hits harder, and I just showed you why. Now you want to just ignore me because I actually just showed you something? Hitting a quad weakness with no drawbacks is always better than just a normal weakness with drawbacks, 10/10 times.

Edit: Fortune, just got majorly ninja'd.

Why exactly are we discussing Pinsir on the Aegislash suspect page? We should be trying to determine if Aegislash itself is healthy or unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

EQ still hits Heatran harder and will always be better than CC. No drawbacks, 100% accuracy! and a huge BP to boot! Not only that, Heatran is quad weak to ground while it's not so with CC. 100x4 = 400 BP(EQ)

120x 3 (SE and stab) = 360 BP (CC)

Which one is hitting harder? I think the answer is clear.

Also whether or not Heatran hard counters Pinsir isn't the question. It's which move is more effective on Heatran. And the answer is EQ.

One word: Skarmory. It's the entire reason Pinsir wants to use CC over EQ. Heatran makes no difference because it's weak to both. The only flying resist that is weak to EQ but not CC is Aegislash.