Shadow Ball is a VERY viable move on Mel. She can no sell ghosts all day and threaten them with the SE coverage. It's great because ghosts try to cockblock relic song too.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
that team just straight up crumbles to CC pinsir/SD heracross, i should have said its nearly as viable as BW
After testing out the new meta I must say that many pro-ban arguments in form of "MegaGard will be more used" are not true.
The meta without Aegislash isn't as good as many people said. Of course at the start I saw a lot of Mega-Gardevoir or Mega-Medicham but these died out quickly. People don't realise that Aegislash is only ONE of their counters and yes, removing one counter makes a Pokemon more usable just like I can remove Mega-Venusaur and Keldeo becomes more usable. All of this was mentioned before and it became true.
Mega-Gardevoir still fears steel-types such as Scizor, Ferrothron or Heatran and it still needs a moveslot or teammembers to take them out.
Mega-Heracross is stopped by birdspam, especially Talonflame.
But I don't want to repeat too much what was already said and would answer to something else:
Air Ballon Aegi: I'm using Aegislash alot and from my personal experience it is not as easy to keep the ballon on him that's why I prefer other Items. Aegislash with Ballon is most of the time used as spinblocker for Excadrill (which doesn't work that well either because everybody uses Iron Head when predicting the switch to it). Otherwise it has not much use because Aegislash is used as CHECK or COUNTER for other Pokemon in most teams. Pokemon like Gardevoir or Lati@s for example. Switching Aegislash into a Psyshock or Draco Meteor causes the Ballon to pop instantly and his item was useless. Leftovers, Spooky Plate or Life-Orb are way better options for most teams because it makes it easier to keep these Pokemon in Check and that is his purpose. Outside of the now banned DeoSharps I hardly used Air-Ballon-Aegi just because it wasn't much of a use. Even without Air-Ballon most Earthquake-User first attack with another move to weaken Aegislash and pop the Ballon (if it has one) and then OHKO with Earthquake (see Excadrill-example). From my experience Air-Ballon is not the best Item you can choose for Aegislash.
SubToxic: You overestimate Aegislash's longevity from this set. Without Wish-support this set dies really fast. A typical battle looks like this:
1. Aegi comes in in Lati@s (for example).
2. Switch to Check (example: Mandibuzz). Aegi does Toxic predicting the obvious Mandibuzz.
3. You know its set now. Switching to Tyranitar (something with Earthquake, if you have Heatran or Bisharp even better). If your Mandibuzz has Taunt you can make Aegislash even useless now. Aegi uses Sub.
5. You spamming Earthquake. He can barely stall out your Toxic because Earthquake deals enough damage that a second Sub is risky. He might use Kings Shield once more to get one more Toxic turn before dying or have to switch out.
Damage: 2 toxiced Pokemon on your side and a nearly useless Aegislash on the opponent side.
This is the reason why SubToxic-Aegi is viable but outside of stall-teams not often seen. It is easier countered by threats it normally beats and all he can do back before scared away is to toxic something. It is a poor SubToxic-abuser who doesn't do more than others (again: Gliscor is WAY better at this). Its only advantage is surprise or a good wall in stall teams but otherwise not that great without support (especially in form of Wish). Pokemon who cannot be toxic'd and don't fear Shadow Ball are all hardcountering this set.
One more disadvantage: Gliscor can be bulky and fast enough to SubToxic many Pokemon AND is immune to status like paralyze and burn. Aegi has to give up bulk (no way it would do that) or its attack-investement which makes Shadow Ball weaker. Without a recovery he cannot sub-stall effectively and being weak to 4 common attacking types doesn't help him either.
50/50: I and others mentioned it many times but I bring it up again. Pokemon is FULL OF 50/50. In every situation you are forced to make a coinflip decision. Like I tried to make clear in this post coinflips with Aegislash are NOT DIFFERENT from others. Does your opponent switch to Garchomp predicting the Voltswitch from Manectric or does he just stay in with Gyarados predicting HP Ice and use DD or Earthquake? You are ALWAYS confronted with these kind of decisions, coinflips are everywhere. But we learn which side of the coin your opponent will more likely choose and the 50/50 chance becomes a 70/30 chance. This is called prediction. If you predicted right, you get the better end, if you predicted wrong you get a bad end. This is normal since Gen1 and Aegislash didn't change that AT ALL.
The meta without Aegislash isn't as good as many people said. Of course at the start I saw a lot of Mega-Gardevoir or Mega-Medicham but these died out quickly. People don't realise that Aegislash is only ONE of their counters and yes, removing one counter makes a Pokemon more usable just like I can remove Mega-Venusaur and Keldeo becomes more usable. All of this was mentioned before and it became true.
Mega-Gardevoir still fears steel-types such as Scizor, Ferrothron or Heatran and it still needs a moveslot or teammembers to take them out.
Mega-Heracross is stopped by birdspam, especially Talonflame.
But I don't want to repeat too much what was already said and would answer to something else:
Air Ballon Aegi: I'm using Aegislash alot and from my personal experience it is not as easy to keep the ballon on him that's why I prefer other Items. Aegislash with Ballon is most of the time used as spinblocker for Excadrill (which doesn't work that well either because everybody uses Iron Head when predicting the switch to it). Otherwise it has not much use because Aegislash is used as CHECK or COUNTER for other Pokemon in most teams. Pokemon like Gardevoir or Lati@s for example. Switching Aegislash into a Psyshock or Draco Meteor causes the Ballon to pop instantly and his item was useless. Leftovers, Spooky Plate or Life-Orb are way better options for most teams because it makes it easier to keep these Pokemon in Check and that is his purpose. Outside of the now banned DeoSharps I hardly used Air-Ballon-Aegi just because it wasn't much of a use. Even without Air-Ballon most Earthquake-User first attack with another move to weaken Aegislash and pop the Ballon (if it has one) and then OHKO with Earthquake (see Excadrill-example). From my experience Air-Ballon is not the best Item you can choose for Aegislash.
SubToxic: You overestimate Aegislash's longevity from this set. Without Wish-support this set dies really fast. A typical battle looks like this:
1. Aegi comes in in Lati@s (for example).
2. Switch to Check (example: Mandibuzz). Aegi does Toxic predicting the obvious Mandibuzz.
3. You know its set now. Switching to Tyranitar (something with Earthquake, if you have Heatran or Bisharp even better). If your Mandibuzz has Taunt you can make Aegislash even useless now. Aegi uses Sub.
5. You spamming Earthquake. He can barely stall out your Toxic because Earthquake deals enough damage that a second Sub is risky. He might use Kings Shield once more to get one more Toxic turn before dying or have to switch out.
Damage: 2 toxiced Pokemon on your side and a nearly useless Aegislash on the opponent side.
This is the reason why SubToxic-Aegi is viable but outside of stall-teams not often seen. It is easier countered by threats it normally beats and all he can do back before scared away is to toxic something. It is a poor SubToxic-abuser who doesn't do more than others (again: Gliscor is WAY better at this). Its only advantage is surprise or a good wall in stall teams but otherwise not that great without support (especially in form of Wish). Pokemon who cannot be toxic'd and don't fear Shadow Ball are all hardcountering this set.
One more disadvantage: Gliscor can be bulky and fast enough to SubToxic many Pokemon AND is immune to status like paralyze and burn. Aegi has to give up bulk (no way it would do that) or its attack-investement which makes Shadow Ball weaker. Without a recovery he cannot sub-stall effectively and being weak to 4 common attacking types doesn't help him either.
50/50: I and others mentioned it many times but I bring it up again. Pokemon is FULL OF 50/50. In every situation you are forced to make a coinflip decision. Like I tried to make clear in this post coinflips with Aegislash are NOT DIFFERENT from others. Does your opponent switch to Garchomp predicting the Voltswitch from Manectric or does he just stay in with Gyarados predicting HP Ice and use DD or Earthquake? You are ALWAYS confronted with these kind of decisions, coinflips are everywhere. But we learn which side of the coin your opponent will more likely choose and the 50/50 chance becomes a 70/30 chance. This is called prediction. If you predicted right, you get the better end, if you predicted wrong you get a bad end. This is normal since Gen1 and Aegislash didn't change that AT ALL.
Just popping in with an aside to note that Aegi cares more about Will-o-Wisp than one would think, especially given that it has no way to block it. Yes, it's main moves are special, but it's two top answers, Bisharp and Mandibuzz, block those moves handily. The moves that Aegislash tends to use to get around them (if it chooses to) are both physical, and therefore nerfed badly by a burn. Also worth noting that it makes King's Shield less attractive as you're basically committing yourself to a 12.5% health drop.
4 Atk burned Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 184-218 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bisharp (and other Dark-types like Umbreon) get quite a bit of breathing room facing a burned Aegislash with which to hurt it (and it's team) however it wants with Pursuit trapping and Knock Off spam. It outspeeds unless it's a Jolly max variant which is usually fairly easy to detect, so it can switch in at least once without fear.
The better option is Mandibuzz, which still only fears Head Smash and maaaaybe SubToxic if it switches in on the wrong move.
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 209-246 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is the strongest possible Head Smash, and with a burn Aegi isn't even guaranteed a 2HKO. Lure sets are only guaranteed a 3HKO with a boosting item. This pretty much cements Mandibuzz as a hard counter to almost everything Aegi can run (except, as mentioned, SubToxic, which it can just Taunt if it gets the opportunity). Now what does this say about Aegi? First of all, it does care far more about burn than some people have been saying, despite being largely a special attacker. Secondly, Mandibuzz is a far more solid answer to Aegislash than a lot of pro-banners have been implying, and Bisharp can threaten it pretty hard as well. All it needs is to be burned, which isn't as difficult as it sounds thanks to users such as Gengar, Rotom-W, Mega Garde and the rare Sableye, most of which actually lure Aegi in quite well. Just a thought that I had :)
tl;dr Burn still hurts Aegislash, even if it doesn't affect it's nuke STAB: The moves it normally uses to answer it's main checks - Bisharp and Mandibuzz - are physical. The chip damage can also discourage use of King's Shield.
4 Atk burned Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 184-218 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bisharp (and other Dark-types like Umbreon) get quite a bit of breathing room facing a burned Aegislash with which to hurt it (and it's team) however it wants with Pursuit trapping and Knock Off spam. It outspeeds unless it's a Jolly max variant which is usually fairly easy to detect, so it can switch in at least once without fear.
The better option is Mandibuzz, which still only fears Head Smash and maaaaybe SubToxic if it switches in on the wrong move.
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 209-246 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is the strongest possible Head Smash, and with a burn Aegi isn't even guaranteed a 2HKO. Lure sets are only guaranteed a 3HKO with a boosting item. This pretty much cements Mandibuzz as a hard counter to almost everything Aegi can run (except, as mentioned, SubToxic, which it can just Taunt if it gets the opportunity). Now what does this say about Aegi? First of all, it does care far more about burn than some people have been saying, despite being largely a special attacker. Secondly, Mandibuzz is a far more solid answer to Aegislash than a lot of pro-banners have been implying, and Bisharp can threaten it pretty hard as well. All it needs is to be burned, which isn't as difficult as it sounds thanks to users such as Gengar, Rotom-W, Mega Garde and the rare Sableye, most of which actually lure Aegi in quite well. Just a thought that I had :)
tl;dr Burn still hurts Aegislash, even if it doesn't affect it's nuke STAB: The moves it normally uses to answer it's main checks - Bisharp and Mandibuzz - are physical. The chip damage can also discourage use of King's Shield.
I went through and highlighted all the times I said counter: Literally once. And it had nothing to do with Bisharp. I wasn't saying that burn completely breaks Aegislash - but it makes it a hell of a lot easier for Aegi's checks and counters to switch in on it and take care of it. Skim reading is dangerous.
What I don't get is people saying that Mandibuzz isn't a good counter because Aegislash might be running Head Smash, which is basically the only thing that can break it except for SubToxic which, as people have been saying for a few pages now, is cockblocked by Taunt and can be worked around by carrying a cleric. If we have a look at the usage stats:
Head Smash doesn't show up. It's somewhere within the ~10% of Aegislash moveslots that fall under the "Other" category. Assuming that Head Smash is the only move Aegi uses other than the other nine that's still 9 out of 10 Aegislash at least that Mandi has no problem dealing with, which is decent from a laddering point of view. Adding in Toxic, you get about 1 in 4 Aegi that Mandibuzz might conceivably have to play around a bit to beat. And the number of Aegi running Head Smash is almost definitely lower than 10%. From the Aegi player's point of view, there's a huge opportunity cost to using Head Smash: Bulky Grounds can sit in front of it and not take a lot, especially Hippowdon as it can actually take Shadow Balls if it needs to - at least, better than Gliscor for example.1825 usage stats said:
His point is we don't need to be reminded that a mixed attacker is easier to switch in to when it's burned.
By your logic, M-Kangaskhan shouldn't be in Ubers because of Will-O-Wisp Prankster Sableye, nor should Physical/Mixed M-Lucario.
Burn should never be part of an argument for whether something should be banned or stay, as it has no bearing on how the Pokemon itself is actually used or how versatile it is, especially if the pokemon you're arguing for mainly runs mixed sets.
So this is kind of why I'm still kind of on the fence but leaning towards ban. While there still isn't a real definition of Uber, it's still something to think about.
Quoting from http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-definition-of-uber.3460453/
Can it wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame? No. While it can beat a lot of the metagame 1v1 and can come in on numerous threats, I don't think its staying power is really that high.
While Aegislash is a freaking amazing offensive pivot, I wouldn't call wear and tear via shadow ball a support characteristic.
Is Aegislash a dominating force and does it dictate playstyles to be majorly centralizing? Kind of. While a lot of the pokemon in the current meta would still be great with Aegislash gone, I can't help but think the ground-based meta with the likes of Hippowdon, Garchomp, Gliscor, and Landorus has been influenced heavily by Aegislash.
But here's my main issue with Aegislash:
The risk/reward ratio to using Aegislash is way too low. Aegislash, despite very many things that can threaten it in the meta, is the most used pokemon and still one of the most consistent. It's ridiculously easy to use, will always likely do more than one pokemon's worth of work. It definitely doesn't have hard stops and beats many pokemon 1v1. The question really becomes, why wouldn't you use Aegislash? It's a great stand-alone mon, requires literally no support, and does wonders for any team.
Aegislash is one of those "super-safe picks", as it'll never be dead weight for any team and will put in its work. It doesn't have the risk associated with using other pokemon, for example there are many cases where Mega Tyranitar will get to do absolutely nothing, same with Azumarill, or Heatran, or Chansey, or any other pokemon.
King's Shield is just icing on the cake, the reward from getting one prediction is ridiculous.
Quoting from http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-definition-of-uber.3460453/
Well, can it sweep with little effort? No. The only thing that can really sweep is gimmicky autotomize WP sets and the SD set, neither of which are particularly easy to set up and sweep with.
Can it wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame? No. While it can beat a lot of the metagame 1v1 and can come in on numerous threats, I don't think its staying power is really that high.
While Aegislash is a freaking amazing offensive pivot, I wouldn't call wear and tear via shadow ball a support characteristic.
Is Aegislash a dominating force and does it dictate playstyles to be majorly centralizing? Kind of. While a lot of the pokemon in the current meta would still be great with Aegislash gone, I can't help but think the ground-based meta with the likes of Hippowdon, Garchomp, Gliscor, and Landorus has been influenced heavily by Aegislash.
But here's my main issue with Aegislash:
The risk/reward ratio to using Aegislash is way too low. Aegislash, despite very many things that can threaten it in the meta, is the most used pokemon and still one of the most consistent. It's ridiculously easy to use, will always likely do more than one pokemon's worth of work. It definitely doesn't have hard stops and beats many pokemon 1v1. The question really becomes, why wouldn't you use Aegislash? It's a great stand-alone mon, requires literally no support, and does wonders for any team.
Aegislash is one of those "super-safe picks", as it'll never be dead weight for any team and will put in its work. It doesn't have the risk associated with using other pokemon, for example there are many cases where Mega Tyranitar will get to do absolutely nothing, same with Azumarill, or Heatran, or Chansey, or any other pokemon.
King's Shield is just icing on the cake, the reward from getting one prediction is ridiculous.
I have to admit that aegislash is a very threatening pokemon, but there are a couple of counters that easily can take out aegislash. Infernape, mixed ttar, talonflame (best if life orb set incase of switch in), excadrill (if aegislash doesnt have air balloon), greninja, bisharp, and probably many others i am forgetting atm. Aegislash can easily be taken out by fire blast, flare blitz, earthquake, dark pulse, crunch, and other moves. It may be a very hard pokemon for some to beat, but if you put in any of these well known counters, aegislash is more of a flawed deoxys-d/a.
People need to understand that it isn't ONLY Aegislash that hold Mega-Hera and Mega-Medicham back--it's Talonflame, really. While obviously the banning of Aegislash will only increase the burden on Talonflame, Aegislash is not the sole reason they aren't viable.
EDIT: What I'm trying to say is, "The meta has too many stall breakers without Aegislash" is a slippery slope argument, and that's not acceptable when talking pro/anti ban. In order for you to disprove this, you need to prove that all of these wall breakers WILL in fact flood the meta; that, however, is something you cannot prove, as there are defining forces that work against a few of them and keep them in line. Just because Mega-Heracross and Mega-Medicham ARE potentially more viable, it doesn't mean they will see more usage. We've established that viability does NOT equal usage. As I stated in my post earlier, it is our job as stall builders to adapt to the meta. This is not Gen 2, and we will never get a meta that is stall oriented, thanks to the constant power creep.
Please stop these alarmist arguments; they aren't helping the thread, and they're more or less wrong.
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Usage stats are irrelevant, if this is your argument then it's complete garbage. Ladder usage has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO with why we ban things because it is flawed and not representative of a high level of play.
Then again CB Talonflame is one of the most centralizing OU mons. If you don't have something that can take a CB Brave Bird on your team like Landorus-T, Heatran or Gliscor you're not sweeping with anything. Every team has a counter or at least one solid check for Talonflame, otherwise you're sacrificing a pokemon everytime it comes in. Besides, the impact of a potential ban on the metagame is irrelevant. What matters is if the pokemon in question is broken or not, not what the effect of a ban would be on the metagame afterwards.
Needless to say, Aegislash is broken. People have been calling for it to go Uber even when XY just came on the servers. Aegislash was all people talked about back then, and how broken it was. Aegislash excels at everything, whether it is typing, stats, coverage or versatility. It doesn't need any further explaining really. There's too many things it can do, and it has nearly no flaws.
I think this is the proper approach to the Aegislash suspect. As I said before, this test is somewhat unique in that the suspect is a slow attacker that doesn't usually sweep whereas previous bans and tests covered primarily speed demons. Aegislash is the perfect pivot and that might be why it should go uber.
Aegislash's variability and ability to create 50/50s are indisputable, but these should not be reasons for a ban as they easily apply to other Pokemon. As SansNickel points out, the real problem lies in Aegislash being a low risk pivot just as Genesect was known for being a low risk scout. Kings Shield is only a minor problem compared to real issue of the combination of good offensive and defensive typing with amazing stats to support it. Aegislash is the ultimate pivot and serves the dangerous support role as a sniper that dents or picks off your opponent's team piece by piece for easy cleaning and sweeping.
As much as I enjoy using Aegislash for the amusing mind games and as half the engine in my "Hydreigon-Aegislash sniper core," Aegislash is just too easy to use as a pivot support which is one category of uber.
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Hi guys. I've been playing on the suspect ladder today, and there's 3 threats that I keep running into. Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Medicham. They all benefit from the lack of Aegislash on the ladder, and it's pretty hard to pull off stall right now. Still, I think this metagame is generally much better without Aegislash, as I've thought that Aegislash has been broken for a while now. There's very little reason not to use Aegislash on every single team. It's super bulky, it's very powerful, it fits on nearly every team, and it's typing is incredible. It can also get past some of it's best counters with a few modifications to it's set, and it's presence in OU alone makes some Pokemon un-viable. However, the worst thing I think Aegislash brings is the stupid 50-50s. King's Shield really takes away a lot of competitiveness in this meta, as so many games have been decided on coin flips because of King's Shield. I understand that we're never going to eliminate all of the 50-50s in Pokemon, but removing Aegislash will significantly reduce the number.
Although my opinion isn't set in stone yet, I think I plan on banning Aegislash.
Although my opinion isn't set in stone yet, I think I plan on banning Aegislash.
Usage stats are the only hard evidence one can provide (other than replays) and they are more reliable than your war stories. Idk about some of you, but the evidence of how Aegislash is used by the thousands of players on PS weighs more than the accounts of a few players who consider themselves Pokemon masters.
This is false. While it is true that there is a correlation between usage stats and viability, correlation does NOT equal causation. It has been established time and again in so many threads that usage statistics are not enough to establish brokenness. All they show is that a lot of people use something; they don't offer any insight as to WHY the numbers are such. Saying the usage statistics are the only thing that matters is like saying a batter is only as good as his number of hits. A batter's hits doesn't measure his RBIs, his ABs, and the type of hits he makes. I invite you to come back with a more solid argument regarding Aegislash's brokenness, because usage statistics do not cut it.
After hanging around in OU with my MegaVoir and Mandibuzz, I just wanted to post something that has been annoying me a lot recently.
Some people on here say that Mandibuzz is not a Counter to Aegislash, because of SubToxic, Head Smash or the Mixed Set.
Well then, let me show you how I would deal with that. (And how everyone with a brain and a Mandibuzz does, too.)
The SubToxic set is an easy one.
Let's say, Aegislash is facing your weakened Gengar, who would surely die from a Shadow Sneak.
You switch out, he subs. Now Mandibuzz is there.
Mandibuzz is naturally faster than Aegislash. Taunt it. End. of. Story.
If he tries to attack you at this point:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 84-99 (19.8 - 23.3%)
And then you use Foul Play.
4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Blade: 410-486 (126.5 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Taunt is the key. If you use MegaVoir you are bound to have a damn good Aegislash counter and Mandibuzz is just the best.
The mixed set is even easier to deal with, because everything makes veeery low damage. (Also, I have literally never seen a HP ice-aegi.)
Just take a hit and Foul Play :D
I don't want to talk about the Head Smash Set, it's somewhere in the Other 18.164% of Moves chosen.
Also, with Roost you loose the Flying Type. Just Roost until he kills himself.
(Head Smash, unlike other self-hurting moves, throws half the damage you made back at you. Not 1/3, not 1/4 but half.)
I also don't understand why Heracross is not used because of Aegislash.
Did nobody notice the 4x flying weakness with Talonflame everywhere?!
(And in general, flying moves are becoming more popular because of venusaur.)
Now, about that popular "I have to put Earthquake on my Team!" -Problem.
Why would you not want to have Earthquake on your team, when there are things like Heatran, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Rotom-W and Gengar, if you use Mold Breaker, Bisharp, MegaMawile, Manectric and the list goes on and on.
Earthquake is by no means "unwanted" on everyone's team.
And your precious MegaPinsir doesn't have to kill Aegislash. That's what Team-Support is for.
Now, I think I made myself pretty clear about my opinion on this topic.
Don't ban it. Really.
Some people on here say that Mandibuzz is not a Counter to Aegislash, because of SubToxic, Head Smash or the Mixed Set.
Well then, let me show you how I would deal with that. (And how everyone with a brain and a Mandibuzz does, too.)
The SubToxic set is an easy one.
Let's say, Aegislash is facing your weakened Gengar, who would surely die from a Shadow Sneak.
You switch out, he subs. Now Mandibuzz is there.
Mandibuzz is naturally faster than Aegislash. Taunt it. End. of. Story.
If he tries to attack you at this point:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 84-99 (19.8 - 23.3%)
And then you use Foul Play.
4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Blade: 410-486 (126.5 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Taunt is the key. If you use MegaVoir you are bound to have a damn good Aegislash counter and Mandibuzz is just the best.
The mixed set is even easier to deal with, because everything makes veeery low damage. (Also, I have literally never seen a HP ice-aegi.)
Just take a hit and Foul Play :D
I don't want to talk about the Head Smash Set, it's somewhere in the Other 18.164% of Moves chosen.
Also, with Roost you loose the Flying Type. Just Roost until he kills himself.
(Head Smash, unlike other self-hurting moves, throws half the damage you made back at you. Not 1/3, not 1/4 but half.)
I also don't understand why Heracross is not used because of Aegislash.
Did nobody notice the 4x flying weakness with Talonflame everywhere?!
(And in general, flying moves are becoming more popular because of venusaur.)
Now, about that popular "I have to put Earthquake on my Team!" -Problem.
Why would you not want to have Earthquake on your team, when there are things like Heatran, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Rotom-W and Gengar, if you use Mold Breaker, Bisharp, MegaMawile, Manectric and the list goes on and on.
Earthquake is by no means "unwanted" on everyone's team.
And your precious MegaPinsir doesn't have to kill Aegislash. That's what Team-Support is for.
Now, I think I made myself pretty clear about my opinion on this topic.
Don't ban it. Really.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Usage statistics from the high end of the ladder represent a pretty clear view of what the metagame looks like. While usage statistics alone don't prove anything, comparing the regular ladder usage stats with the suspect ladder ones will give us an idea of how Aegislash has shaped the OU metagame.
It's undeniable that Aegislash's presence in OU makes certain Pokemon less viable (Gardevoir/Medicham/Starmie) and certain others much more effective (Bisharp/Mandibuzz). In the end we're going to choose what metagame we like better, regardless of how 'broken' Aegislash actually is.
Also, let's try to discuss in a civil manner. I don't like the tones that some of you are using in your posts. You know who I'm referring to.
It's undeniable that Aegislash's presence in OU makes certain Pokemon less viable (Gardevoir/Medicham/Starmie) and certain others much more effective (Bisharp/Mandibuzz). In the end we're going to choose what metagame we like better, regardless of how 'broken' Aegislash actually is.
Also, let's try to discuss in a civil manner. I don't like the tones that some of you are using in your posts. You know who I'm referring to.
Aegislash can toxic on the very obvious Mandibuzz switch-in.
Head Smash Aegi would run speed to outspeed Mandibuzz, as Mandibuzz typically runs max def.
But yeah the earthquake thing isn't really a solid pro-ban argument, it's more like some Mega Heras would like SD or Sub over EQ as rock/fight coverage is already crazy good.
An element only has to be common enough to reach the attention of people that matter.
Also, the ladder is pretty famous for being behind the times. I accidentally clicked on the regular OU ladder, and the first fight was just me getting half my team crushed by a sd set that I did not see coming. The surprise was that I still won, because the player sucked, I just assumed the wrong set. It seems my first post was unfortunately accurate, aegislash's versatility will establish itself during this test.
I still think most of the arguments are stretched at best, but I'm having trouble justifying a threat that can take down any Pokemon in the tier on its own
Okay, but you can still Taunt it afterwards. And Taunt goes through King's Shield and Sub. (Aaand I also have a HealBell-er, sooo..)
And if it runs Speed, you switch to something that can take a Head Smash and outspeed it.
If it's speed-invested it probably doesn't have that much HP, so killing it should be easy.
(I also want to apologize, I have the feeling Haunter-sama is referring to me :P)
Okay, so i just got reqs and i believe it's time for me to post my opinion on Aegi's subject. I believe this pokemon, even if it's absolutely amazing, is nowhere near broken and i'll try to explain why. :]
First, i'd like you to note that even if people bitch about Aegi being able to fire extremely powerful shadow balls, i'm pretty sure nobody has ever had his team swept by an Aegislash, and it's easy to explain. The XY metagame has a lof of threats in it, Aegi might be one, but he's got a huge drawback compared to some osers ; its speed. Being a really slow pokemon, Aegislash is pretty easy to revenge kill, espacially when he's weak to Ground/Dark and Fire. People might say "yh but he can just kings shield and lower your attack !_!", well ok then, but most of the time, it's gonna end up on a key 50/50, and if you miss your prediction you might end up facing a boosted sweeper able to put a huge dent on your team. And even if you get it right, that's really unlikely that your opponnent went into a pokemon who's gotta rely on a 50/50 to take you out, and who's dying to a shadow ball. (i.e: if a lando-t comes on your aegislash, it can just spam eq, not giving a single fuck about you using kings shield). On the other hand, Aegi sometimes have a hard times doing damages to stallish teams, as any non-LO&hasty version will be handled by pokemons like heatran, mvenu or even quagsire and chansey, depending on the aegi's set.
Another thing i'd like to point out is that, in a tier filled with really powerful offensive threats, a pokemon like Aegislash might sometime have a hard time switching in, because he's gonna take a hit on the switch in, and a second one before it can even do damages, because he'll barely always be slower than the pokemon he switches into.
Talking about threats, even if Aegi sometimes has a hard time switching in because of the offensive pressure that's gonna be put on him, he, however, as some key immunites/resistances, that makes him able to switch in on some pokemons who otherwise would litterally have no counters at all (hi m-medicham**), thus, he's a really important pokemon in the metagame.
Ah, also, with the rise of SDef Gliscor, whose use is not only to counter aegislash (though he does it extremely well), i don't even believe Aegi should be a problem anymore, even the SubToxic set who might be able to beat hippowdon/mandibuzz/chesnaught etc.
**note that in the 56 battles i had before getting the reqs, i faced, let's say, ~20 Medichams, ~8 Heracross, ~5 Hawluchas, ~3 Alakazams, all these pokemons being quite powerful and, impossible/really hard to take on/play around if you're playing offense without Aegislash.
tl;dr
-Aegi is slow which sometimes makes it hard for him to really do the damages he could do.
-Aegi might force a lot of 50/50, but he's rather predictable, and any decent player should easily be able to pivot/play around aegislash and take him out.
-Aegi DOES have COUNTERS.
-Aegi balances the metagame perfectly.
First, i'd like you to note that even if people bitch about Aegi being able to fire extremely powerful shadow balls, i'm pretty sure nobody has ever had his team swept by an Aegislash, and it's easy to explain. The XY metagame has a lof of threats in it, Aegi might be one, but he's got a huge drawback compared to some osers ; its speed. Being a really slow pokemon, Aegislash is pretty easy to revenge kill, espacially when he's weak to Ground/Dark and Fire. People might say "yh but he can just kings shield and lower your attack !_!", well ok then, but most of the time, it's gonna end up on a key 50/50, and if you miss your prediction you might end up facing a boosted sweeper able to put a huge dent on your team. And even if you get it right, that's really unlikely that your opponnent went into a pokemon who's gotta rely on a 50/50 to take you out, and who's dying to a shadow ball. (i.e: if a lando-t comes on your aegislash, it can just spam eq, not giving a single fuck about you using kings shield). On the other hand, Aegi sometimes have a hard times doing damages to stallish teams, as any non-LO&hasty version will be handled by pokemons like heatran, mvenu or even quagsire and chansey, depending on the aegi's set.
Another thing i'd like to point out is that, in a tier filled with really powerful offensive threats, a pokemon like Aegislash might sometime have a hard time switching in, because he's gonna take a hit on the switch in, and a second one before it can even do damages, because he'll barely always be slower than the pokemon he switches into.
Talking about threats, even if Aegi sometimes has a hard time switching in because of the offensive pressure that's gonna be put on him, he, however, as some key immunites/resistances, that makes him able to switch in on some pokemons who otherwise would litterally have no counters at all (hi m-medicham**), thus, he's a really important pokemon in the metagame.
Ah, also, with the rise of SDef Gliscor, whose use is not only to counter aegislash (though he does it extremely well), i don't even believe Aegi should be a problem anymore, even the SubToxic set who might be able to beat hippowdon/mandibuzz/chesnaught etc.
**note that in the 56 battles i had before getting the reqs, i faced, let's say, ~20 Medichams, ~8 Heracross, ~5 Hawluchas, ~3 Alakazams, all these pokemons being quite powerful and, impossible/really hard to take on/play around if you're playing offense without Aegislash.
tl;dr
-Aegi is slow which sometimes makes it hard for him to really do the damages he could do.
-Aegi might force a lot of 50/50, but he's rather predictable, and any decent player should easily be able to pivot/play around aegislash and take him out.
-Aegi DOES have COUNTERS.
-Aegi balances the metagame perfectly.
SAVE AEGISLASH
Agreed. And that is what I am afraid of and we shouldn't do. Banning a Pokemon because you would like a metagame without it, isn't good. I would like to see some Pokemon gone too but they are of course far from broken.
Lastly, I still think this will become true. Many people don't care if Aegislash is actually broken or not. If they like the new meta enough they will vote for ban.
So the views of a few tour players or players at the top of the ladder are more valuable than the accumulated stats gathered from all players on the ladder? I know that usage stats don't determine brokenness which is why I only used them to outline the most popular Aegislash moves. That was meant to serve as a counterexample to the "it's impossiple to know what Aegislash is runing, cause so many move" argument. I think we all know what Aegislash will be running almost all of the time barring a blip like Head Smash. Like Kairyu_Gen1 mentioned above me gen 6's power creep makes it very difficult for a single Pokemon to take down another on its own. That doesn't mean it's unstoppable. Like I said before its poor Speed and ability are very easy to take advantage of when played correctly.
Sure you can taunt it, but now you've taken 2 turns of toxic and one shadow ball damage. And aegi has taken nothing, and you're forced to use 1 turn to switch to a heal beller, and 1 turn to use heal bell. That's some pretty good value.
Also, you don't know if you outspeed it assuming Mandibuzz gets hit on the switchin.
The fact that it force a switch, do 70% to Mandibuzz and then force another switch is already really damn good lol
I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll be brief. Yes--I will say that the viewpoints of players in the top 500 will suffice. They are there for a reason, and on the whole, there are a lot of players still learning on the ladder. I also disagree that you know what set it is running, because it can viably run so many at little cost to the team. There are many situations in which multiple sets could suit a team very well, and predicting wrong could very well cost you the game. The goal of Smogon's forums is to provide a competitive analysis of Pokemon, and making blanket statements about what is effective based on how many people use it is not competitive--especially when there are other sets that can work viably. As I said, I don't want to derail the thread, so of you wish to continue this, please just PM me instead.
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