np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

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Lady Alex

Mew is blue
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I think the fact that aegislash needs to change its move set to handle its checks and counters is reason not to ban it. Many pokemon do just that and forces the meta to adapt and evolve and there's nothing wrong with this in my opinion. Also head-smash only does 65-73 percent, coming from an adamant max attack aegislash, to a max hp, max defense mandibuzz in this case, mandibuzz is faster and can either OHKO with foul play, do a lot of damage with knock off, or roost of the damage halving the next head smash.(Also, head smash doesn't have to best accuracy either.) So all in all, head smash is a bad way to deal with mandizbuzz. Also, this 50/50 argument for the pro-ban side is also a bad argument because what people are not realizing is that aegislash has the same risk/reweard chances as their opponent. Also king shield doesn't block status moves is thing to remember as well. So it's fair and even in my opinion.

There are also plenty of pokemon that can put aegislash at bay such as, heatran, rotom-wash, landorus(both formes), and venusaur. And niche pokemon like clefable, togekiss, and diggersby can check/counter aegislash as well.
Why is that? Pokemon who have to compromise their moveslots to deal with their checks/counters usually do so at a significant cost to its overall effectiveness. Aegislash's sets that deal with its most common checks are no less potent than the standard mixed shadow ball set. Aegislash isn't comparable to something obscure like grass knot Bisharp to deal with Quagsire. Aegislash maims its checks with relative ease.

In regard to head smash vs mandibuzz, being able to 2hko it is all aegislash needs. Mandibuzz is a pretty telegraphed switch in to Aegislash since nothing else can generally switch in as safely as mandibuzz, so betting on the switch to mandibuzz and head smashing would be a pretty safe gamble, most of the time.
 
Earthquake is insanely common because it is a great move that just about everything gets and it gets around king's shield as well, sure aegislash can hit stuff hard in return if it lives but so what it only really gets to use 3 slots for attacks. But regardless the point is that nobody really has to go out of their way and carry some obscure or sub-optimal move just to check it
I feel it is necessary to explain the selection bias when you not that "nobody really has to go out of their way and carry some obscure or sub-optimal move just to check it".

One does not see Shadow Ball Latios (to nail it on the switch) as common because, as I said before, it is so suboptimal because Ghost does not have good coverage. Even EQ Latios (although it is run for primarily Heatran) could 2HKO with no Leftovers, Stealth Rock Max Attack, and a neutral nature.


252 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Life Orb Latios Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 161-190 (49.6 - 58.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Most Special attacker Pokes that can run Fire Blast would likely run it if they can, not for Aegislash, but for other things too.

===

I mean charizard, garchomp, excadrill, t tar, hippowdon, landorus and talonflame just to name a few.
King's Shield can scout the common Scarfchomp and T-Tar to see if the later runs a coverage move for it. Ttar falls to Sacred Sword too.
 
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I feel it is necessary to explain the selection bias when you not that "nobody really has to go out of their way and carry some obscure or sub-optimal move just to check it".

One does not see Shadow Ball Latios (to nail it on the switch) as common because, as I said before, it is so suboptimal because Ghost does not have good coverage. Even EQ Latios (although it is run for primarily Heatran) could 2HKO with no Leftovers, Stealth Rock Max Attack, and a neutral nature.


252 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
.
Latios with earthquake doesnt run max attack
 
Latios with earthquake doesnt run max attack
That is an optimal scenario, and I was lazy to look up the EVs. Still, my point was that in the case of Latios, it is not worth running special moves (or as you mentioned) EVs spreads for Aegislash. That is why one does not see too often many "obscure or sub-optimal move{s} just to check it".

But really, non-STAB Earthquake is sub-optimal, especially if it on a Choiced Pokemon. (But I can accept that this is a positive impact of Aegislash's presence in the metagame as opposed to an increased prevalence of Fighting coverage moves).
 
In my opinion, Aegislash does centralize the metagame, but it does so in a healthy way (by keeping things like Mega Garde, Megacham, and other mons in check. Banning Aegislash is going to open up other issues so that diversity is destroyed in the long run and not created. So in my opinion, Aegi needs to not be banned.

Also, you could argue that Aegi really isnt broken, its just a bit centralizing.
 

Lady Alex

Mew is blue
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
In my opinion, Aegislash does centralize the metagame, but it does so in a healthy way (by keeping things like Mega Garde, Megacham, and other mons in check. Banning Aegislash is going to open up other issues so that diversity is destroyed in the long run and not created. So in my opinion, Aegi needs to not be banned.
We don't keep broken/unhealthy pokemon in OU just because they might keep other potentially broken/unhealthy pokemon in check. If we ban Aegislash and something else is revealed to be overpowered, we'll deal with that when the time comes.
 
Why is that? Pokemon who have to compromise their moveslots to deal with their checks/counters usually do so at a significant cost to its overall effectiveness. Aegislash's sets that deal with its most common checks are no less potent than the standard mixed shadow ball set. Aegislash isn't comparable to something obscure like grass knot Bisharp to deal with Quagsire. Aegislash maims its checks with relative ease.
Shadow ball is great to use because it gets around many physical walls that stopped the swords dance variant. I don't see Head Smash being useful except for using it on Mandibuzz as Sacred Sword usually provides much better coverage.

In regard to head smash vs mandibuzz, being able to 2hko it is all aegislash needs. Mandibuzz is a pretty telegraphed switch in to Aegislash since nothing else can generally switch in as safely as mandibuzz, so betting on the switch to mandibuzz and head smashing would be a pretty safe gamble, most of the time.
I'm not so sure as Mandibuzz can easily stall Aegislash out of head smash with roost.
 
Aegislash is one of the most versatile Pokemon in OU. It just has so many uses. You can use stall,offensive sweeper or you can go defensive. Any of them work. It is undeniably good and it has shaped the 6th gen OU metagame perhaps than any other Pokemon. But it is not broken. While it can fill multiple roles on a team and it can be a deadly force, it can be countered. Bisharp,and Mandibuzz are the most notable counters to Aegislash but there are others as well. I do not think it's broken but it's just very good. There's a difference.
 
Shadow ball is great to use because it gets around many physical walls that stopped the swords dance variant. I don't see Head Smash being useful except for using it on Mandibuzz as Sacred Sword usually provides much better coverage.



I'm not so sure as Mandibuzz can easily stall Aegislash out of head smash with roost.
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 278-328 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With roost..aegislash will end up killing itself with recoil eventually. That or mandibuzz will outspeed and go for a nasty foul play even if aegislash hits on switch in.. or just roost for full health on the KS. Head smash is a gimmicky move on him, it's not even used ever and it doesn't work all that well.. who here uses or has seen head smash slash before? Exactly..
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 278-328 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With roost..aegislash will end up killing itself with recoil eventually. That or mandibuzz will outspeed and go for a nasty foul play even if aegislash hits on switch in.. or just roost for full health on the KS. Head smash is a gimmicky move on him, it's not even used ever and it doesn't work all that well.. who here uses or has seen head smash slash before? Exactly..
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-14867
This is wcop OU match btw, its labeled ubers but its OU.

TL ;DW bro fist had to rely on an incredibly high roll on iron head or a mid-low roll on head smash for shadow sneak to kill; head smash came thlu and he won by 1%
 

LeoLancaster

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is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Aegislash is one of the most versatile Pokemon in OU. It just has so many uses. You can use stall,offensive sweeper or you can go defensive. Any of them work. It is undeniably good and it has shaped the 6th gen OU metagame perhaps than any other Pokemon. But it is not broken. While it can fill multiple roles on a team and it can be a deadly force, it can be countered. Bisharp,and Mandibuzz are the most notable counters to Aegislash but there are others as well. I do not think it's broken but it's just very good. There's a difference.
The main thrust of the pro-ban side isn't that Aegislash is broken. Aegislash is overcentralizing. Some have argued that Aegi keeping Cham/Garde etc. in check is healthy for the tier. The problem is that Aegislash is then affecting the meta much more than is healthy for one 'mon to do.

I've heard some say that Volcarona would have been Uber in gen 5 if not for Heatran and Stealth Rock. In this case, an analogy could be made with Volc being Garde and Heatran being Aegislash (and SR being Tflame). But in this case, Aegi isn't just stopping Garde. He's stopping Cham and Starmie as well, and limiting Heracross, Terrakion, and others, and in a way that has a larger affect on each than the other top-tier threats (Char X etc). It's insane for one 'mon to have such a huge impact on the tier. I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if the meta is less healthy with Aegi around, it's better to ban him and whatever new problems crop up than keep him here as a disproportionately centralizing force.
 
We don't keep broken/unhealthy Pokemon in OU just because they might keep other Pokemon that could be a problem otherwise, in check. If we ban Aegislash and something else is revealed to be overpowered, we'll deal with that when the time comes.
Aegislash on its own isn't overpowered or 'broken', it is only centralizing, but my viewpoint is that the centralization that it exerts is healthy for the metagame by limiting other mons that could be a problem if Aegislash weren't here, and even then, Aegislash isn't really broken on its own, and the centralization that it does exert is healthy.

btw 'over-centralizing' is an exaggerated term the term was made to explain bw2 drizzle-swim meta and Aegislash doesn't centralize xy anything comparable to that.
 
Aegislash on its own isn't overpowered or 'broken', it is only centralizing, but my viewpoint is that the centralization that it exerts is healthy for the metagame by limiting other mons that could be a problem if Aegislash weren't here, and even then, Aegislash isn't really broken on its own, and the centralization that it does exert is healthy.
Literally the opposite of healthy, actually. Incredibly diseased idea of thinking. If something is so powerful that other powerful things are only remaining because of it, the smart course of action would be to just get rid of them all, if they're that damn powerful and influential, not keep the original giant power in to prevent them from reigning. It'd be different, possibly, if what was keeping the other powerful things down was weak enough that it itself wasn't the center of the "Universe" that is Smogon meta, but that's not the case with Aegislash, as proven multiple times in this thread, where the only solid counter is Mandibuzz, otherwise an incredibly high risk is taken.

I'm sure that a lot of people will have trouble understanding what I just said, as it's not worded in the best manner, so I'll use a little graph instead.

--------Aegislash
-----/-------|-------\
Mega Cham
-|---Mega Cross
-----|-Mega Garde--|
-----|-------|-------|
/|||||||||||||||||||||\
The rest of the Meta game


That's a diseased thought train when it comes to things like the Pokemon meta. The smart option wouldn't be keeping it like that, it'd be the best to just do this:

--------Aegislash
-----/-------|-------\
Mega Cham
-|---Mega Cross
-----|-Mega Garde--|
-----|-------|-------|
/|||||||||||||||||||||\
The rest of the Meta game
 
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Aegislash on its own isn't overpowered or 'broken', it is only centralizing, but my viewpoint is that the centralization that it exerts is healthy for the metagame by limiting other mons that could be a problem if Aegislash weren't here, and even then, Aegislash isn't really broken on its own, and the centralization that it does exert is healthy.
I could argue that the presence of the three Mega Wallbreakers (Medicham, Heracross, and Gardevoir) are checked by anything faster than it or priority. The meta already has Pokemon that can check most of these things, such as Sand teams and fly spam teams, not to mention Thundurus, Geninja, Keldeo, Latios, and Gengar (who will most likely experience a Renaissance as the new Shadow Ball spammer) that do not need Choice items to do so. Bisharp and Mega Mawile can check Gardevoir and Mega Medicham with Sucker Punch.

'Cham could potentially be banned (possibly quick banned) since there are no other OU viable ghosts (perhaps due to Aegislash fulfilling the niche) that can take its attacks. Perhaps Trevenant and Gourgeist may see some uses as 'Cham counters if the meta matures enough, but it is debatable to say this is a potential example of overcentralization since Aegislash already occupies their niche and displaces them in the present metagame. However, unlike Aegislash, increased use of those Pokemon to counter 'Cham is likely overcentralization since most people use Aegislash for its offensive presence (in addition to its defensive attributes) while those Pokemon do not have that. Nothing likes taking even a resisted High Jump Kick. Defensive Slowbro can wall it, but Max HP Azumarill takes > 50% from it, thus without something like Slowbro, it is best to use something as death fodder for a check to have a free switch. 'Cham can also act as a "Revenge killer" with Pure Power Fake Out, although it is weaker than a Banded Extreme Speed and only lasts for a turn (but this is a good tool against other Priority users too), and can run Fire Punch (as opposed to the recommended Ice Punch) to get past Skarmory easier and kill Mega Scizor.

Gardevoir has issues with Heatran, particularly with the Focus Blast inaccuracy.

Still, if any one of these Pokemon becomes broken without Aegislash, they will be banned, but just do not see these things being broken without Aegislash. They can annihilate stall teams though, not to mention the increased use of fighting coverage moves that would likely adverse affect stall.
===
Still, it seems fairly easy to ban one of these Pokemon if they become too problematic. Based on my theoretical considerations, it seems 'Cham will likely be banned, but it is fairly easy to do so.
 
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Literally the opposite of healthy, actually. Incredibly diseased idea of thinking. If something is so powerful that other powerful things are only remaining because of it, the smart course of action would be to just get rid of them all, if they're that damn powerful and influential, not keep the original giant power in to prevent them from reigning. It'd be different, possibly, if what was keeping the other powerful things down was weak enough that it itself wasn't the center of the "Universe" that is Smogon meta, but that's not the case with Aegislash, as proven multiple times in this thread, where the only solid counter is Mandibuzz, otherwise an incredibly high risk is taken.

I'm sure that a lot of people will have trouble understanding what I just said, as it's not worded in the best manner, so I'll use a little graph instead.

--------Aegislash
-----/-------|-------\
Mega Cham
-|---Mega Cross
-----|-Mega Garde--|
-----|-------|-------|
/|||||||||||||||||||||\
The rest of the Meta game


That's a diseased thought train when it comes to things like the Pokemon meta. The smart option wouldn't be keeping it like that, it'd be the best to just do this:

--------Aegislash
-----/-------|-------\
Mega Cham
-|---Mega Cross
-----|-Mega Garde--|
-----|-------|-------|
/|||||||||||||||||||||\
The rest of the Meta game
then it will be, according to this logic:

--------Aegislash
-----/-------|-------\
Mega Cham
-|---Mega Cross
-----|-Mega Garde--|
-----|-------|-------|
/||Mega Charizards||Mega Mawile| Diggersby|Sticky Web|Mega Pinsir|||Mega Venusaur||Stealth Rock| Thundurus| Landorus |Knock Off||Mega Gyarados||Talonflame| Keldeo |Weathers|\
The rest of the Meta game <-- (what it should be? Yanmega + Staraptor + Torterra oh wow such XY OU metagame)

pls no

the answer to "This game sucks" it's not "ban it and it might be not" but "change game dude" or "improve urself ^_^"
 
then it will be, according to this logic:

--------Aegislash
-----/-------|-------\
Mega Cham
-|---Mega Cross
-----|-Mega Garde--|
-----|-------|-------|
/||Mega Charizards||Mega Mawile| Diggersby|Sticky Web|Mega Pinsir|||Mega Venusaur||Stealth Rock| Thundurus| Landorus |Knock Off||Mega Gyarados||Talonflame| Keldeo |Weathers|\
The rest of the Meta game <-- (what it should be? Yanmega + Staraptor + Torterra oh wow such XY OU metagame)

pls no

the answer to "This game sucks" it's not "ban it and it might be not" but "change game dude" or "improve urself ^_^"
You completely missed the point I was making.

You can't band-aid over powerful factors of the metagame by just keeping an even more powerful counter like Aegislash in. Also, telling anybody ever to "Get better" as an excuse for not making a counter argument is just plain sad, hopefully you don't actually use it if they actually make good points, as seen in this thread. If it's too powerful or over-centralizing, then it should be gone, it shouldn't just stay in the game to counter others that -might- be too powerful if they are allowed to roam free.
 
Literally the opposite of healthy, actually. Incredibly diseased idea of thinking. If something is so powerful that other powerful things are only remaining because of it, the smart course of action would be to just get rid of them all, if they're that damn powerful and influential, not keep the original giant power in to prevent them from reigning. It'd be different, possibly, if what was keeping the other powerful things down was weak enough that it itself wasn't the center of the "Universe" that is Smogon meta, but that's not the case with Aegislash, as proven multiple times in this thread, where the only solid counter is Mandibuzz, otherwise an incredibly high risk is taken.

I'm sure that a lot of people will have trouble understanding what I just said, as it's not worded in the best manner, so I'll use a little graph instead.

--------Aegislash
-----/-------|-------\
Mega Cham
-|---Mega Cross
-----|-Mega Garde--|
-----|-------|-------|
/|||||||||||||||||||||\
The rest of the Meta game


That's a diseased thought train when it comes to things like the Pokemon meta. The smart option wouldn't be keeping it like that, it'd be the best to just do this:

--------Aegislash
-----/-------|-------\
Mega Cham
-|---Mega Cross
-----|-Mega Garde--|
-----|-------|-------|
/|||||||||||||||||||||\
The rest of the Meta game
This is an inherently flawed argument. There is no "Rest of the meta". Inside that rest of the meta there are again a list of 4 or 5 centralizing pokemon. Ban those and 4 more take their place.
Anyone who has ever played any competitive game knows this.
I understand the sheer power of M-Gengar, M-Luke, etc since in those threads not ONE person could come up with a decent check without resorting to inefficient or obscure moves. Aegislash is not one of those Poke. There are PLENTY of normal sets for pokes that check him very nicely. No need to resort to weird stuff, just adapt your team a little. People just want to play whatever they like and win. I'm sorry but COMPETITIVE games are not like that (I used to play MTG competitively). Adapt to the meta or play casual, those are the two choices.
 
So I see a lot of people saying that King's Shield 50/50s are fun because they make the players think, or they make the player with the better prediction skills win, or whatever.

Anyway, they are not skill based.

I'll go to a scenario that I've mentioned before briefly, but back in like page 11 or whatever. It's a bit artificial to best show my points, but it is very similar to the situation that most contact attackers are in.

I have a Life orb Weavile with Swords Dance and Knock Off, my last excuse for an Aegislash check remaining. You're down to your Aegislash, and I sacrificed a mon to let Weavile come in on Blade Form.

If Aegislash uses King's Shield and Weavile uses Swords Dance, or if Aegislash uses Sacred Sword and Weavile uses Knock Off, I win (well, it could use a second King's Shield, but no one's disagreeing that's a luck based 50/50). If Aegislash uses KS as Weavile attacks, or Sacred Sword as it sets up, I lose. The reason I picked Weavile vs. Aegislash is because I can prove that the risk and reward for both moves are equal, either Weavile wins or Aegislash does depending on how their moves match. While this isn't the case for most pokemon, King's Shield has pretty similar risk and reward especially on contact attackers. This post by Jukain explains it pretty well, that you are not making an educated guess based on what type of situation you and the opponent are in, you are simply guessing whether Aegislash will use King's Shield or keep attacking.

There's a reason why we call these situations 50/50s. Because the mathematically optimal way for both players to play them is to literally flip a coin to make their decision.

First, your choice should be random, because if you have any kind of patterns, the opponent can exploit them, so even in other situations where you're heavily weighted towards one option or the other, it's still best to not make patterns out of it that the opponent can guess.

Second, when the risk and reward for both of your moves are equal, you don't want to favor one option over the other. If I instead have a 60% chance of using Knock Off, and a 40% chance of using Swords Dance, the Aegislash will just hit King's Shield and win the matchup 60% of the time. It's best to split the odds of both moves 50/50 so the Aegislash user only wins half the time no matter how he makes his choice.

Of course there's that big bolded part. I believe it is true with contact attackers. Let's go through the possible scenarios, using instead something like Tyranitar without Earthquake.

Tyranitar uses Crunch, Aegislash uses King's Shield: Loss in momentum for Tyranitar, a free turn for Aegislash as Tyranitar is forced to switch or do pitiful damage.

Tyranitar uses Crunch, Aegislash attacks: Aegislash takes huge damage, possibly KO'd.

Tyranitar uses Stone Edge/Stealth Rock/etc, Aegislash uses King's Shield: A free turn for Tyranitar. Hope it has something better to do in that turn than Stone Edge to avoid the attack drop.

Tyranitar doesn't use Crunch, Aegislash attacks: Tyranitar takes massive damage, possible KO'd.

So the risk/reward are fairly equal: Either T-tar or Aeg takes huge damage, or one of them gets a free turn. This is a true 50/50 (or 55/45 or something very close).

The fact that King's Shield can force Tyranitar not to use Crunch when it's super effective because of these 50/50s is just stupid. Get Aegi outta here, or at least King's Shield (can someone please confirm/deny this as an option? sorry if I missed it but I read this whole thread)
 
This is getting a little ridiculous. Keeping a few potentially (keyword: potentially) overpowered things in check is not a good reason to keep Aegislash.

For one thing, we don't keep broken shit to check broken shit. Furthermore, this thread is the first time I have heard anyone say, in any capacity, that Mega Garde/Cham/Hera are overpowered. "If we ban Aegislash we might have to ban these three;" really? You think that? Aegislash, a pokemon that stall does not use, is the one, singular reason that these pokemon, which already have respectable usage and viability, are completely dominating and 6-0'ing every stall team they run into?

But most importantly: Stall is already really quite good and hard to break. It will only improve if future suspects, namely Mega Maw, X-zard (okay stall uses this but it's still a huge pain for them to vs.,) Thundurus, and Landorus, get banned: not to mention Aegislash itself. Is it so bad that stallbreakers will increase in viability? Especially stallbreakers that both have an opportunity cost for running them (Garde and Cham are not so great against HO, Mega Hera is bulky but a lot of things can RK,) and for which stall is not completely helpless; Slowbro/Mew/Cresselia for Cham (all of those benefit from Aegislash going, btw,) Mega Scizor for Garde, uh idk for Heracross (Weezing?) but Gliscor can probably do something. Not to mention Garde and Cham both have abysmal defenses so even uninvested attacks from a number of walls are going to 2HKO.

There are people acting like these three, as well as stuff like Close Combat Pinsir, are going to become huge problems without Aegislash. To people who have actually played on the suspect ladder: is this really the case?
 
on the topic of suboptimal moves, i just don't see it here is my standard team, it handles aegislash so easily it isnt even funny
Charizard y- guaranteed OHKO with fire blast (unaffected by KS)
Garchomp- 70-80% with earthquake (unaffected by KS)
Excadrill- guaranteed OHKO with earthquake (unaffected by KS)
Hippowdon- 51-61% with earthquake (unaffected by KS)
Aegislash- 89-106% with shadow ball (unaffected by KS)
Conkeldurr- 53-63% with knock off (can play around king's shield by using a fighting move when KS is predicted)

so yeah every single member of my team can hit aegislash super-effectively and at worst 2HKO it without having to run any sub optimal moves at all. I know it isn't the case for every team but mine handles aegislash extremely easily without even trying to. It is just weak to so many common and spammable moves that I just don't see how it can be considered broken especially since it is so slow and because it is used often as a pivot, it rarely has full health.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
OUPL Champion
This is getting a little ridiculous. Keeping a few potentially (keyword: potentially) overpowered things in check is not a good reason to keep Aegislash.

For one thing, we don't keep broken shit to check broken shit. Furthermore, this thread is the first time I have heard anyone say, in any capacity, that Mega Garde/Cham/Hera are overpowered. "If we ban Aegislash we might have to ban these three;" really? You think that? Aegislash, a pokemon that stall does not use, is the one, singular reason that these pokemon, which already have respectable usage and viability, are completely dominating and 6-0'ing every stall team they run into?

But most importantly: Stall is already really quite good and hard to break. It will only improve if future suspects, namely Mega Maw, X-zard (okay stall uses this but it's still a huge pain for them to vs.,) Thundurus, and Landorus, get banned: not to mention Aegislash itself. Is it so bad that stallbreakers will increase in viability? Especially stallbreakers that both have an opportunity cost for running them (Garde and Cham are not so great against HO, Mega Hera is bulky but a lot of things can RK,) and for which stall is not completely helpless; Slowbro/Mew/Cresselia for Cham (all of those benefit from Aegislash going, btw,) Mega Scizor for Garde, uh idk for Heracross (Weezing?) but Gliscor can probably do something. Not to mention Garde and Cham both have abysmal defenses so even uninvested attacks from a number of walls are going to 2HKO.

There are people acting like these three, as well as stuff like Close Combat Pinsir, are going to become huge problems without Aegislash. To people who have actually played on the suspect ladder: is this really the case?
I kind of agree with what you have to say, these mons aren't too hard to prepare for, but:

Aegislash, a pokemon that stall does not use,
>_______________________>
 
Doesnt taunt just shut Aegi down? I know that is putting simply but that's all I do to it and when it can't King Shield it runs or the next teammate gets hit or you switch to a counter. Any prankster user or fast taunter is viable.
 
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