What if he uses Dark Pulse against him? He wont lose the Ghost resistance then and he will cause more damage.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
- Start date
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Rotosect
Banned deucer.
That's because the other defensive ghost types are, quite frankly, a joke. Gourgeist and Trevenant are weak to dangerous offensive types (Dark, Ice, Fire and Flying in particular) that are very common in OU, Dusclops is extremely passive, Cofagrigus has no reliable recovery and it's low HP stat hurts it a lot and Jellicent's water immunity is no longer as valuable in a metagame without perma-rain.
The offensive ones, such as Mismagius, are obviously outclassed by Gengar.
Froslass has been overshadowed by the Deoxys formes but she's viable once again as a suicide lead.
Sableye is the odd exception because it fulfills a unique niche, and it's the low stats that prevent it from being OU, certainly not Aegislash. M-Banette is more or less a worse Sableye that takes up the mega slot and uses (predictable) D.Bond shenanigans.
Obviously all of them hate Knock Off, which is the main reason for their downfall. Gengar was the only one that managed to adapt to it with its Sash+D.Bond set.
Aegislash is "guilty" of being the best pokemon of a type full of mediocre ones. Ghost is a great offensive type and decent defensive one, but type alone doesn't mean much.
Besides, isn't Chansey the only Normal type in OU? It's not her fault if the likes of Porygon-Z and Staraptor aren't.
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Okay, a lot of people have brought up that there are quite a few Pokemon that can switch into Aegislash and threaten to KO it back. Now, even though some of these so-called "counters" cannot in fact switch into most sets or any set really (lol Mamoswine and *insert Fire type that couldn't dream to take a Shadow Ball here*), even if Aegi had hard counters and was easily checked, I really don't think that would make it much less banworthy. You can't do what people did for Khan and MLuke and make a list of the swicthins, look at how small it is, and call it a day.
To explain why this is, let's look a 2 very different Pokemon, Mega-Medicham and Chansey. Now, for all intents and purposes, Mega-Medicham is close to uncounterable. Faster threats get obliterated by HJK for the most part, and most slower threats get outsped and 2HKO'd. Aegi himself crumbles to Fire Punch, Slowbro can be defeated by Thunder Punch, and all that's really left are bulky Psychics such as Mew and Cresselia. Chansey, on the other hand, is very easy to switch into and beat. Pretty much any physical Fighting type, boosting sweeper, or Choice Band carrier can switch in and beat it (as well as, surprise surprise, Aegislash). So, if that's the case, why is Chansey A- and Mega-Medicham only B+? Well obviously, Chansey is a wall, supposed to switch into Pokemon, and is excellent at this, being able to come in on basically every special attacker not named Keldeo, Landorus, or Thundurus I guess. Mega-Medicham really cannot switch into much, and therefore often struggles to find opportunities to launch its powerful STABs against more offensive teams.
This is where Aegslash comes in. You see, Aegislash can both switch in on an extrordinary amount of attacks and deal a lot of damage. Okay sure, MMedi is going to deal way more damage than Aegi, but what can it actually come in on? Meanwhile, Chansey can come in on a few more Pokemon than Aegi, but how much damage is it going to cause to whatever switches in? Aegi is overpowered not for how hard it is to switch into, or how easily it switches in, but for both at once. It can very easily just come in (against, let's say a Latias or a Breloom), hit the switchin hard, and repeat as long as your Aegi-weak mon is still alive. This is something no other Pokemon does, or at least, not nearly as well. And as long as your Aegi-weak mon is still alive, it will continue to get free opportunities to come in and wear down your Mandibuzz, and then switch out of it to come back in again. Because that's another thing about Aegi : did you know it could actually switch out? Obviously, you can apply this to MGarde and say it can just "switch out" of Mega-Scizor. But MGarde is going to have a hell of a time coming back in, unlike Aegi who can just do so the next time your Scarf Terrakion decides to lock itself into Close Combat. And yeah, I guess you can sack your Aegi-weak mon in order for it to stop abusing it, but having to lose it every time you face an Aegi is pretty bad, and it's what people usually refer to when they talk about Aegi's unhealthy overcentralisation which make a lot of Pokemon that are eaten alive by it borderline unusable : if you use one of said Pokemon and face an Aegislash, it actually becomes a liability. And finally, most answers to Aegislash are easy to switch into because that have little offensive presence (Mandibuzz) or are EQ users you can send a Levitater or Flyer onto (Garchomp, Hippowdon). And yes, I realise Bisharp exists and can trap Aegi, but Bish is not switching directly into Aegi at all, especially if said Aegi is facing a Latias : since it can't touch it, Aegi risks almost nothing from going for Sacred Sword, compared to Mega Medicham using Thunder Punch on an Excadrill, expecting the switch into Slowbro.
All in all, Aegislash's list of checks and counters is kinda moot given that it isn't a sweeper and therefore can't be stopped simply by sticking a Gliscor in front of it, regardless of what set it's running. Furthermore, Aegi really doesn't mind switching out, since it is very easy for it to come back in. The is no Pokemon in OU which has a larger list of stuff it can switch into and stuff that can't switch into it combined, which is, above all, what makes Aegislash worthy of a ban IMO.
To explain why this is, let's look a 2 very different Pokemon, Mega-Medicham and Chansey. Now, for all intents and purposes, Mega-Medicham is close to uncounterable. Faster threats get obliterated by HJK for the most part, and most slower threats get outsped and 2HKO'd. Aegi himself crumbles to Fire Punch, Slowbro can be defeated by Thunder Punch, and all that's really left are bulky Psychics such as Mew and Cresselia. Chansey, on the other hand, is very easy to switch into and beat. Pretty much any physical Fighting type, boosting sweeper, or Choice Band carrier can switch in and beat it (as well as, surprise surprise, Aegislash). So, if that's the case, why is Chansey A- and Mega-Medicham only B+? Well obviously, Chansey is a wall, supposed to switch into Pokemon, and is excellent at this, being able to come in on basically every special attacker not named Keldeo, Landorus, or Thundurus I guess. Mega-Medicham really cannot switch into much, and therefore often struggles to find opportunities to launch its powerful STABs against more offensive teams.
This is where Aegslash comes in. You see, Aegislash can both switch in on an extrordinary amount of attacks and deal a lot of damage. Okay sure, MMedi is going to deal way more damage than Aegi, but what can it actually come in on? Meanwhile, Chansey can come in on a few more Pokemon than Aegi, but how much damage is it going to cause to whatever switches in? Aegi is overpowered not for how hard it is to switch into, or how easily it switches in, but for both at once. It can very easily just come in (against, let's say a Latias or a Breloom), hit the switchin hard, and repeat as long as your Aegi-weak mon is still alive. This is something no other Pokemon does, or at least, not nearly as well. And as long as your Aegi-weak mon is still alive, it will continue to get free opportunities to come in and wear down your Mandibuzz, and then switch out of it to come back in again. Because that's another thing about Aegi : did you know it could actually switch out? Obviously, you can apply this to MGarde and say it can just "switch out" of Mega-Scizor. But MGarde is going to have a hell of a time coming back in, unlike Aegi who can just do so the next time your Scarf Terrakion decides to lock itself into Close Combat. And yeah, I guess you can sack your Aegi-weak mon in order for it to stop abusing it, but having to lose it every time you face an Aegi is pretty bad, and it's what people usually refer to when they talk about Aegi's unhealthy overcentralisation which make a lot of Pokemon that are eaten alive by it borderline unusable : if you use one of said Pokemon and face an Aegislash, it actually becomes a liability. And finally, most answers to Aegislash are easy to switch into because that have little offensive presence (Mandibuzz) or are EQ users you can send a Levitater or Flyer onto (Garchomp, Hippowdon). And yes, I realise Bisharp exists and can trap Aegi, but Bish is not switching directly into Aegi at all, especially if said Aegi is facing a Latias : since it can't touch it, Aegi risks almost nothing from going for Sacred Sword, compared to Mega Medicham using Thunder Punch on an Excadrill, expecting the switch into Slowbro.
All in all, Aegislash's list of checks and counters is kinda moot given that it isn't a sweeper and therefore can't be stopped simply by sticking a Gliscor in front of it, regardless of what set it's running. Furthermore, Aegi really doesn't mind switching out, since it is very easy for it to come back in. The is no Pokemon in OU which has a larger list of stuff it can switch into and stuff that can't switch into it combined, which is, above all, what makes Aegislash worthy of a ban IMO.
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Um, friend... I don't think you understand what I was saying before. The situation you're describing is a 50/50. I agree with you, because it creates a chain of events where both people cannot predict the outcome.
However, you ignored my previous post. You're isolating the KS situation. When using KS, you should not just be thinking about what your opponent is thinking. You should be thinking about the risk and reward of the current situation. How heavily will you be exploited by using KS? Will your opponent Dragon Dance? And if so, will the dragon be able to sweep your team? Or do you have a counter/check to that pokemon? How has your opponent played in the match so far? Are they conservative or do they take risks? Will aegislash be able to OHKO the opposing pokemon if it doesn't attack or can it take another hit?
All of these factors come into play when using Sucker Punch of KS/Protect, etc. It may seem like a 50/50 to a novice player, but when you think through every situation and option, there's almost always an optimal play to be made. If there is no optimal play, then the situation is a 50/50, but then neither player will gain much of an edge from the result. And if the opponent is using Conkeldurr or Weavile to check Conkeldurr, they should probably rethink their strategy, rather than play mindgames with an opponent. Earthquake and special attacks exist for a reason, so do non-contact moves.
Coming from someone who doesn't play OU too much, but plays NU a lot, I can honestly say that the priority of bans in OU are not needed at this moment. As a community, we should first off settle the NU tier before even looking at OU , a tier that is fine and used to Aegislash being around, but gets a shit ton of complaints because its there, after almost a year of it being around. This one suspect test is just a bunch of people complaining about Aegislash. "it makes people run EQ" or "It changed the Meta!" And all the iron/poison moves for firies on fighting/dragon types now a days are a thing called coverage, hence why people need EQ for Aegi. This is OU. Be prepared for everything in OU. The tier is at its knees to Aegislash, if that were the case, it would have been suspected awhile ago. We need change in the meta. This mon is very different, but why complain now? Or start now that it is being suspected. Centralization is OU.
^This (for the most part).
I've been reading this thread for a while, and there's several arguments I see on both end of the debate that I'm sick of seeing:
1. Aegislash doesn't have any counters because he can run a LO set/Balloon/Hidden Power Whatever/Head Smash/any other move/item/set/EV spread: As a stall player, I know quite well that MOST of OU can change its checks/counters dramatically by running a different item, changing even ONE move, running a different item, etc. In fact, the only things I can think of that are only viable with one item are Eviolite mons, Gliscor, and megas with terrible base forms (like Mawile). And the only things viable with only one set are mostly stallmons like Chansey (which can still run variations like toxic vs. twave, or Seismic toss vs. 2 forms of healing). Even things that typically run only one type of set with only one move up for change can still change what it deals with by changing that one move. For example, Rotom W pretty much always runs Hpump/Volt Switch/Will O Wisp. But changing the last move to Trick can cripple a lot of would-be checks/counters (such as Chansey) and give him a technically worse matchup vs others. A lot of things in general can change what checks them simply by investing a bit more speed than usual, or a different item/move. If the ability to run varied movesets/items in and of itself were broken enough to be an argument, we'd probably have to ban the entire tier. And if I switch something in blindly without considering the possibility of them running a lure, there is a high chance that I deserved to lose the match anyway, just as if it were any other Pokemon running a hidden power/alternate move/alternate item, etc.
2. Aegislash forces teams to run Earthquake, Fire Blast (insert any other move he's weak to here): If you are running an offensive team, and do not have an option to hit Aegislash anywhere on your team, it really just sounds like you're running a crappy team. Even with Aegislash gone on the suspect ladder, I still see plenty of people running Earthquake, Fire Blast, Knock Off, Shadow Ball, etc. simply because those are good moves that hit several relevant threats. An offensive team that doesn't have a Fire move, for example, can often find itself unable to break Mega Scizor. Earthquake hits almost everything in the tier that isn't flying/levitating at least neutrally (only relevant things I can think of that resist and are on the ground are Heracross and Grass types - and not even all of them) and as a result is spammable enough even in suspect ladder to make a flying/levitating poke, balloon, Heracross, or a resisting Grass type pretty much a REQUIREMENT for a good team. Knock off is literally the most spammable move in the tier (most things don't like losing their items, and it has a decent BP for something that has such a nasty side effect). About 90% of the meta does not resist Shadow Ball, making it incredibly spammable as well, and Ghost is a good coverage move for Fairy and Fighting (being unresisted in the tier as a pair). Not to mention, Aegislash will take a lot of damage over the course of the match from unresisted attacks such as Hydro Pump and Tbolt, and gets worn down fast due to lack of reliable recovery. So if you're running offense and can't hit him at least neutrally from multiple teammates, it sounds like you're running a crappy team because you're missing out on hitting lots of OU relevant targets in general. If you are running a stall, and do not have something with one of the attacking types he's weak to, something that can tank hits from most sets (barring weird lure sets), and/or Will o Wisp, again, it sounds like you're running a crappy team.
3. Aegislash makes (insert poke here) not viable in OU/forces them to run an inferior set: Some of these Pokemon are actually viable, if you run a teammate that can handle Aegislash. Some of these Pokemon are not viable at all anyway, and/or have issues that go above and beyond Aegis's presence such as also losing to Dark types or being partially/fully outclassed by other Pokemon in the tier; and therefore need to fit a team PERFECTLY to see use. I'm not quite sure why someone can't run the set they want to on Pinsir, for example, or just run Gardevoir if they wish, and just run a teammate that handles Aegislash. And if something is literally not viable in Aegis meta, and viable in Aegis-less meta, who cares? The viability of any other Pokemon, in and of itself, is not an argument to ban.
4. Aegislash keeps (insert poke here) in check, which would otherwise be broken: Just like in point 3, it doesn't matter if something is broken without Aegislash. If something like Gardevoir forces people to run Scizor (assuming that's the only check, which it's not), it is possible to ban that too. The viability of any other Pokemon, in and of itself, is not an argument to not ban. The only issue is that Smogon is generally slow to suspect things that are worth suspecting, but even that is improving and again, not a reason in and of itself.
5. OMG! I love Suspect Ladder! I'm seeing so much variety and it's harder than regular ladder!: You DO realize that we had just banned 2 Pokemon (Deo D and Deo S), and one playstyle (Baton Pass) in the past few weeks, right? That alone is enough to force most people to (at the very least) make changes on their teams, and in many cases build a whole new team entirely. Suspect ladders are always a lot harder than regular ladders due to the fact that most people playing on them are people with a high enough skill level to make reqs or barely not make them, and most people on regular ladder are running crap like this, unless you get above 1500ish (which is around the skill level where people reach before they attempt suspect ladder). The fact that people attempting suspect ladder have to build new teams both without the previously banned pokes and without Aegislash in mind means that a lot of people are just simply trying out new things. The metagame WILL settle in a few weeks, whether or not Aegis gets banned anyway.
6. OMG! I hate Suspect Ladder! I have to change my team: You and everyone else, for the most part. Stall IS still viable there, you just need to make changes to your team to handle the newly popular wallbreakers, or just accept the fact that you WILL lose if your opponent is competent and has one of those Pokemon. I don't see how that's any different from regular ladder higher up, since you already have to change your teams to take into account that the Deos are no longer OU and everyone is trying new stuff out anyway. Boltaway made a post earlier in the thread: in short, if you don't have certain things on your stall, you WILL lose to certain other things that are now more popular; but I don't see that as being any different from before where you would have lost if you didn't take those threats into account when you made your team (except for the increased popularity of, say Medicham).
7. Aegislash causes 50/50's: I don't see this as any different from anything else carrying protect, having a move that hits your Pokemon in on it, having a move that hits something else on your team, and having a healthy counter to your Pokemon in on it elsewhere on the team, tbh. Aegislash is simply better at causing a lot of the 50/50's because he's a very GOOD Pokemon to use anyway, but pretty much anything can cause 50/50's assuming 2 competent players with competent teams. A lot of these 50/50's are weighted heavily depending on what movesets each is carrying, what each player has left on the rest of the team, predictions based on previous actions, etc. There are a few situations I've seen where it's a true 50/50 (where it literally doesn't matter what was done because there was an equally weighted "winning" and "losing" option for each player, including possibilities of double switches and such), more of which are caused by Aegislash than anything else; But the vast majority of things that seem like 50/50's are weighted, even ones caused by Aegislash. All 50/50's, including true ones and pseudo, are user controlled with very few exceptions (unlike the 50/50 of whether hax is in your favor if you have a Paralyzed poke on something that 2hko's you, but you ohko them back and both are the last thing left, or a speed tie between 2 scarfed Garchomps that are last things left).
The only relevant argument is whether or not the presence of Aegislash in the metagame is broken/centralizing to the point of being uncompetitive. This right here is debatable. With previous suspect tests, most Pokemon were judged as uncompetitive by the vast majority of competitive players. It is, in my opinion, not broken, but undoubtedly centralizing. I'm not sure it's centralizing to a point where we will need to get rid of it yet. It does have several checks that are relevant in the metagame, and several that are not all that popular/relevant but technically check. Also a few things that counter/check each relevant set individually but lose to other sets. Nearly every one of these Pokemon that can check/counter are good for other relevant threats as well in the same way they were for Aegislash, to where they are relevant considerations in Aegis-less meta. No one is forced to run something like Own Tempo Numel to counter Aegislash but lose to other threats, however Aegislash *is* good to a point where if it fits a team there is no reason not to run it.
Yes, it would be banned. Broken things get banned, regardless of what it may or may not prevent from being more OP. That's how it works. "Broken counters broken" is not a valid argument.
Gardevoir got shadow ball and calm mind, heracross often carry EQ, and medicham can fake out on the predicted king's shield (to avoid stat drop) and fire punch it..
Enough with the "This pokemon will become dominant when aegislash is gone" because they can do a hurtin on aegislash themselves. If they do begin being overcentralizing they'll just be banned as well.
The most common garde set runs Taunt and doesnt run shadow ball too often, and it also has a very low chance of 2HKOing after lefties. Mega Hera runs EQ purely for aegislash, and the medicham argument is just flawed, because aegi can also easily attack on the "predicted king's shield."
Also, I'm going to make a post later about my position but will do so once I make reqs(~600 coil away).
Incorrect on your stats.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 366-432 (140.2 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, Aegislash is immune to Fake out, so there'd be no actual point in using it except to avoid the stat drop, which wouldn't save him anyways.
At this point I'm neutral on Aegislash being banned, but please don't use incorrect statistics in your arguments.
Are you sure KS is another kind of protect? If you hit it with a contact moves you will incur a hefty attack drop, potentially setting up the stage for a sweeper to set-up due to your weakened physical attacks not being to damage the sweeper setting up much and being forced to switch out.
King's Shield is only not a 50/50 if facing Bisharp or Non-contact moves.
King's Shield is only not a 50/50 if facing Bisharp or Non-contact moves.
Your Talonflame example hits the point, there a are two options, stay in and let it die, or switch out, the latter is clearly the right choice -> no 50/50 here. And most of the time its the same with Aegi. For example, when your Aegi is up against SD Garchomp. Attacking means either you do ~60% damage or die. Using KS means you either allow him to set up or simply achieve nothing exept going back to shield form. In both cases you face a huge risk (lose Aegi/Garchomp gets a boost) while your potential reward (some damage on Chomp/back to shieldform) is fairly low. It should be clear here to everyone with some understanding of the game that switching out is the best decision you can make, its not quite as obvious as the Talonflame case but there is still a "right decision" -> this isnt a 50/50 either. Same is true for basicly every other example that has been mentioned so far regarding Aegis so called 50/50.
Even in the Aegi vs Weavile case there is a right way. Aegi attacking means one of them dies, either Weavile if it went for a boost or Aegi if it attacked. If Aegi goes for KS its either Weavile is forced to switch (depending on Aegis hp it might even be able to stay in) or it gets an SD boost threatening a sweep. So even here is a right choice to make. because possibly forcing a switch isnt worth risking a sweep. Depending on how much you need your Aegi for the rest of the match you will either attack or switch out.
I am pretty sure that the only cases where you will have real 50/50s are in the endgame where both players are left with just one poke and as stated before, thats rare and avoidable and certainly not a good reason to ban Aegi.
Your Chomp vs Mawile example is a 50/50 assuming that both players actually go for the guessing game instead of trying to avoid it by switching which will probably only be the case if those 2 are the last mons standing, and Aegi isnt even involved here so its a good example for a 50/50 but a bad example for Aegi forcing 50/50s. Feel free to try and find one but i doubt you will be able to do that tbh (1on1 endgame cases aside) because there is a major difference between Sucker Punch and Kingshield. KS doesnt kill, at worst it forces a switch and it can only be used once reliably, if you go for KS and the opponent doesnt attack your now wide open. The sucker punch game can be played for as long as you have pps left.
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I agree with most of Emmy2's post, and it's probably the most solid anti-ban post I've seen so far, but I do have a few objections :
This is mostly because lures are mainly executed by deviating from the standard or common of a Pokemon, from physical to special, or from offensvie to defensive Aegislash is the only Pokemon I know of (I may be forgetting one though) whose standard build creates a middle ground between is offensive and defensive capabilities. Therefore, unlike for other Pokemon, you won't lose much by travelling to either side of the spectrum, because if Aegi can do all these things at once, then he can certainly pull off one or the other, unlike Rotom-W whose optimal set is defensive, and who loses more than it gains from going offensive.
I've heard a lot of people claiming that Protect causes 50/50s and I've never taken that argument seriously, but apparently some people think it's actually valid so I felt the need to adress it.
Now, there is a big difference between say, Hasty Life Orb Flash Cannon Aegislash and Trick Scarf Rotom-W. The difference being, Hasty Aegi is actually a very effective set besides being a lure, while Trick Scarf Rotom really isn't. That's the problem with Aegi : not necessarily that it can change its sets, but that it really doesn't lose much by doing so. Scarf Rotom has to sacrifice its bulk in order to pull of a scarf set, and therefore loses the ability to take on a lot of threats, and doesn't gain much besides being able to lure Chansey and freinds. Life Orb Aegi, on the otehr hand, not only gains the ability to mure Mandibuzz and kinda Bisharp, but also emphasizes its ability to spam Shadow Ball from massive damage, and doesn't even lose out on countering a lot of the treats it's supposed to counter (it still switches in on Latis and most Psychic types) . The SubToxic set, in the same vein, puts emphasis on Aegi's ability to wall and stall, not even losig teh powerful Shadow Ball is it notorious for.
This is mostly because lures are mainly executed by deviating from the standard or common of a Pokemon, from physical to special, or from offensvie to defensive Aegislash is the only Pokemon I know of (I may be forgetting one though) whose standard build creates a middle ground between is offensive and defensive capabilities. Therefore, unlike for other Pokemon, you won't lose much by travelling to either side of the spectrum, because if Aegi can do all these things at once, then he can certainly pull off one or the other, unlike Rotom-W whose optimal set is defensive, and who loses more than it gains from going offensive.
I will agree that a lot of elements of the metagame cause 50/50s and that this argument isn't great, but how on earth is Protect one of them? If the opponent Protects and you attack it, the turn has basically been wasted, minus Leftovers and maybe Leech Seed recovery. Not sure how this constitutes a 50/50 given that you lose pretty much nothing from assuming your opponent will not Protect, unlike King's Shield, since it neither cuts the opposing Pokemon's attack in half if a contact move is used nor doubles your opponent's bulk.
I've heard a lot of people claiming that Protect causes 50/50s and I've never taken that argument seriously, but apparently some people think it's actually valid so I felt the need to adress it.
I wasn't planning on posting much on this thread but since no one else touched this...
There has never been a Pokemon quite like Aegislash and its huge impact on the metagame cannot be denied. It's definitely worth a suspect imo, although whether or not it is unhealthy for the meta is far more debatable than was the case for, say, Swagger.
Um... you do realize that different people are in charge of NU than OU, and that the results of this Aegislash suspect will have no effect on NU, right?
The OU metagame is still relatively young and the power creep was enormous in XY. There will be many OU suspect tests after this one, I think, and it's dumb to argue that something isn't broken simply because it wasn't prioritized for suspect sooner. All that means is that the OU tiering council considered other things potentially more broken than Aegi and therefore prioritized their suspect tests higher than Aegi's. I would agree that stuff like Swagger and BP were way worse for the meta than Aegi, but that doesn't mean it isn't worthy of a suspect. Furthermore, most people on this thread have no say in what suspects will take place and when.
So we should just give up on trying to create a balanced meta?
There has never been a Pokemon quite like Aegislash and its huge impact on the metagame cannot be denied. It's definitely worth a suspect imo, although whether or not it is unhealthy for the meta is far more debatable than was the case for, say, Swagger.
Vryheid
fudge jelly
I think the main issue is that your post lacks any sort of coherent argument.
Your points are so wound up in circular logic they're funny, Aegislash is a Pokemon that only requires intelligent team building and smarter playing from the opposing player and not the person using it. This meta has been revolving around it for almost a year and now, we have an issue because people are sick of a boring, stale metagame that is overcentralized around a few broken threats. The whole 50/50 King's Shield argument is a great example of how little Gamefreak cares about the competitive meta for designing this asinine luck based Pokemon. In practice it can be just as uncompetitive as Swagger because it is a 50% chance of a physical attacker getting crippled or allowing Aegislash to get off a free attack. It is a variation of Protect that affords Aegislash an unreasonable amount of bulk against moves that should be OHKOing it (Flare Blitz, Knock Off). It has great typing, good bulk (and keeps the bulk even when it attacks because it almost always moves last) and good firepower, and the meta has "adapted" to it by sticking moves like Earthquake on Pokemon that would have no business running it otherwise for the sole purpose of dealing with this one Pokemon. This entire metagame is FULL of overcentralizing things- like Deoxys, Mega Kang, Mega Lucario, Blaziken, and others were- so yeah, banning the next broken piece of shit is entirely reasonable. I obviously support a ban but of course I'm wrong because the guy who is convinced everyone else lacks a valid point can post a bunch of recycled, easily countered talking points without a shred of evidence. There's a damn good reason people just don't want Aegislash here anymore.
I'll just never understand how someone can see some of the best players here want to ban a Pokemon and not even accept the possibility that there's a grain of truth to their complaints.
1. Yes I agree that Scarf Trick Rotom is mostly trash (especially if you ev it offensively), but it doesn't change the fact that it's enough of a thing that you have to consider your opponent's option of running it before blindly switching Chansey into it. Much like how you have to consider your opponent's option of running Earthquake on Venusaur before blindly switching in a Heatran, or any other moves. Aegis's lure sets tend to be more deadly simply due to its sheer power, and Ghost being such a spammable move type.
2. Protect can cause 50/50's pretty easily. Let's say I have a Gliscor out on the opponent's Thundy, and I just used Protect and they just used HP Ice. Opponent knows I also have Uturn, doesn't know the rest of the set. Depending on their set, what they predict me to do, what I predict them to do, and what I/they both have left, you now have a nice weighted 50/50. Do I hard switch to something that easily takes the HP Ice, but dies to Tbolt? Do I Uturn to something that is guaranteed to force them out? (thinking they'd set up or use Tbolt, predicting my switch to the thing that dies to bolt) Do I Uturn predicting that the opponent will double switch, thinking that I'll hard switch, to get switch initiative on what they send out? On a side note, why on earth would you attack with a contact move if you predict your opponent to protect anyway, except for certain (somewhat rare) mindgame scenarios? Most things will get more mileage out of setting up or switching to a more appropriate check on a predicted protect. Kings Shield is an interesting case, because it's a form of protect that still leaves it vulnerable to status, but punishes contact moves. In either case, Protect isn't a wasted turn for the offensive opponent. It can be used to help judge if your opponent will stay in or leave, for example, or even if you have the kind of opponent who plays cautiously as fuck or not (though, a lot of tendencies can be determined just through team preview - such as stall players tending to be a lot more cautious). Just that you have to keep its nasty side effect in mind if you plan to use a contact move vs. Aegislash instead of anything else with Protect.
No, my point was only that any decent player is trying to out predict his opponent. Your exaggeration is what we call a 'straw man”. I never implied something so extreme. Nobody that makes all his predictions based on a single move is is a “decent player”. Still, since this upset you so, a “good player” (as you put it) will gather as much information from the beginning and throughout the match as possible. They will try to make a distinction between what information is relevant and what information must be disregarded and/or ignored. I gave examples of this in an earlier post, but I guess you were to fired up to just ask for my “proof”. No good player is going to allow themselves to be predicted with utmost certainty, but to say that they cannot be predicted is a joke. How does anyone play professional chess, professional poker, professional GO? I think such “patterns” produced by players are called tails. Even if it were the case that players were unpredictable wouldn't that mean that the entire meta is a series of 50/50's, and Aegislash just forces some special variant? I mean if that is the case then we can go ahead and throw that argument out, can't we? Atleast, someone can make a distinction between the 50/50's of all these unpredictable players and Aegislash. Of course, I wouldn't want to “straw man,”, so I will give you the benefit doubt and assume that you either did not mean that the meta is completely unpredictable or that you have in mind how Aegislash scenarios are relevantly different.
p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }From my experience said:
Okay, well you pointed out a 50/50 that occurred naturally within the mechanics of the game. They are a part of the game. Even with all the relevant information, as you so eloquently displayed for us, you can only infer that neither of you have the information necessary to predict the next players move. That's good. You do see what you did there right. You just defeated your argument. If the mechanics of the game naturally produce 50/50's even with the relevant information, how is Aegislash's case different. How is its KS anymore ban worthy than the natural situations that occur during a match between all pokemon and all players. Now, I am going to pour a little salt on this, because the 50/50 argument on the pro-ban side is a joke. There just isn't a difference except you can expect Aegislash producing a 50/50, but you cannot predict when a 50/50 will naturally occur, making the steel ghost definitively more predictable than the games own mechanics.
We on the not-ban side appreciate your input
In this whole disscussion people who want ban aegislash gave four arguments why it should be banned:
1) "720" base stats
2) king shield is a luck based move, like swagger
3) it has no real counter, its uncounterable
4) it forces people to run fire and ground type moves
"720" base stats
Aegislash in blade from has 150 Def and SpeDef, in it atacking form it has 150 Atk and 150 SpeAtk + 60 Speed and HP = 720 Since aegislash is pretty slow it will take a hit in a shield form and revange in atack form. I don't exacly agree on this. Its true it has that "720 base stats" but only in the first turn it switches in. After atacking it is in atack form and forses user to king shield with may give you a free turn to set up or to atack risiking a KO with it low speed and defences. If you want to get this amazing stats back you have to use the obvious move. Also aegislash is not that bulky, it cant always take two hits especialy when it can have only 252 ev's in HP if you want to be able to hit hard. If you don't have any moves that will give you advatige on king shield you probably will knock it out even in shield form in two turns. The stat distribution istn't that great too. You cant run max power mixed (252atk252SpeAtk) aegislash since your base speed is 60 and you probably get KOd before you even move. It doesnt have a great sweeping potencial since you will have to use shadow sneak probably after first KO with your low Speed. If you let your opponent set up to +6 and you have nothing that resist shadow sneak maybe its not aegislash fault.
King shield is a luck based move
I didnt expect that. Seriously i write about this only because its quite popular "argument". To play around that chance to -2 atk drop you have to think what your opponent is going to do. Its called predicting. If you say its luck based the whole competitive gaming is luck based. That game istn't about building team and picking the obvious moves. If you have Scarfed Garchomp against my Latios i can predict the dragon type atack and switch into my mega mawile. But you can predict my obvious prediction and use EQ. But i can overpredict you and go for draco meteor and KO your garchomp since EQ wont do anything to me. The whole game is about that. King shield forses you to predict: if i atack this aegislash and it uses king shield i will get an -2 atack drop. So should i not atack on this turn, wait out the king shield? But he might predict that and KO me! King shield forces predictions, predicting forces thinking and some players don't like to do this.
"There is no counter for Aegislash"
I don't agree with this statement. Its true though that aegislash has very wide movepool and abilities to run physical or special. If i say bisharp i you sacred sword, if i say mandibuzz you say head smash, if i say T-tar you say flash cannon etc. etc. It has amazing typing - steel is the obvious best defecive typing in the game and ghosts weakness are not really common. In a fact aegislash has only two true weaknesses - ground and fire. EQ is 100 base power, very popular move and ground is very popular typing. Some pokemon get fire fang, there are a few great flamertrower. 252hp 252SpeAtk choice specs Heatran can take two sacred swords and OHKO aegislash with flamertrower. Choice band Gatchomp EQ can one-shot it too. As you can see yes aegislash is counterable.
"Aegislash forces people to run ground and fire type moves even if they don't need them for anything else"
As pokemon gets more popular you see it more often and if you cant hit it sometimes even for neutral damege (like herracros) it often can stop your pokemon from sweeping or just gives your opponent a free turn when you have to switch out. Usually when pokemon gets popular you want to hit it for super-eefective damage to easy counter it. The thing with aegislash is that it has that good typing that as i said sometimes its hard to hit it for any damage. I'd say that is it wouldn't be weak to ground. Earthquake is powerfull move that can hit it for super-efective damage. Most offensive pokemon get it. But still you have to waste a move slot just for aegislash. I don't think you should say "just". If you face it in 50% of your battles you will make a great use of it. Even in 1/3 battles. You probably use it more than your other moves. Is one move slot so much.
Thanks
1) "720" base stats
2) king shield is a luck based move, like swagger
3) it has no real counter, its uncounterable
4) it forces people to run fire and ground type moves
"720" base stats
Aegislash in blade from has 150 Def and SpeDef, in it atacking form it has 150 Atk and 150 SpeAtk + 60 Speed and HP = 720 Since aegislash is pretty slow it will take a hit in a shield form and revange in atack form. I don't exacly agree on this. Its true it has that "720 base stats" but only in the first turn it switches in. After atacking it is in atack form and forses user to king shield with may give you a free turn to set up or to atack risiking a KO with it low speed and defences. If you want to get this amazing stats back you have to use the obvious move. Also aegislash is not that bulky, it cant always take two hits especialy when it can have only 252 ev's in HP if you want to be able to hit hard. If you don't have any moves that will give you advatige on king shield you probably will knock it out even in shield form in two turns. The stat distribution istn't that great too. You cant run max power mixed (252atk252SpeAtk) aegislash since your base speed is 60 and you probably get KOd before you even move. It doesnt have a great sweeping potencial since you will have to use shadow sneak probably after first KO with your low Speed. If you let your opponent set up to +6 and you have nothing that resist shadow sneak maybe its not aegislash fault.
King shield is a luck based move
I didnt expect that. Seriously i write about this only because its quite popular "argument". To play around that chance to -2 atk drop you have to think what your opponent is going to do. Its called predicting. If you say its luck based the whole competitive gaming is luck based. That game istn't about building team and picking the obvious moves. If you have Scarfed Garchomp against my Latios i can predict the dragon type atack and switch into my mega mawile. But you can predict my obvious prediction and use EQ. But i can overpredict you and go for draco meteor and KO your garchomp since EQ wont do anything to me. The whole game is about that. King shield forses you to predict: if i atack this aegislash and it uses king shield i will get an -2 atack drop. So should i not atack on this turn, wait out the king shield? But he might predict that and KO me! King shield forces predictions, predicting forces thinking and some players don't like to do this.
"There is no counter for Aegislash"
I don't agree with this statement. Its true though that aegislash has very wide movepool and abilities to run physical or special. If i say bisharp i you sacred sword, if i say mandibuzz you say head smash, if i say T-tar you say flash cannon etc. etc. It has amazing typing - steel is the obvious best defecive typing in the game and ghosts weakness are not really common. In a fact aegislash has only two true weaknesses - ground and fire. EQ is 100 base power, very popular move and ground is very popular typing. Some pokemon get fire fang, there are a few great flamertrower. 252hp 252SpeAtk choice specs Heatran can take two sacred swords and OHKO aegislash with flamertrower. Choice band Gatchomp EQ can one-shot it too. As you can see yes aegislash is counterable.
"Aegislash forces people to run ground and fire type moves even if they don't need them for anything else"
As pokemon gets more popular you see it more often and if you cant hit it sometimes even for neutral damege (like herracros) it often can stop your pokemon from sweeping or just gives your opponent a free turn when you have to switch out. Usually when pokemon gets popular you want to hit it for super-eefective damage to easy counter it. The thing with aegislash is that it has that good typing that as i said sometimes its hard to hit it for any damage. I'd say that is it wouldn't be weak to ground. Earthquake is powerfull move that can hit it for super-efective damage. Most offensive pokemon get it. But still you have to waste a move slot just for aegislash. I don't think you should say "just". If you face it in 50% of your battles you will make a great use of it. Even in 1/3 battles. You probably use it more than your other moves. Is one move slot so much.
Thanks
So let me get this straight, you're comparing King's Shield to Swagger. When will people get there is no luck based mechanic of King's Shield? To even compare INTENTIONAL CONFUSION to King's Shield is just completely flawed thinking.... and the fact that people find it bad that EQ is used to just to check Aegi is even more silly. Oh damn, I can't run CC on my Mega Pinsir.... maybe I'll just run Rotom to better deal with Skarm? I mean, this is not rocket science. This is just pure intolerance of one thing that the meta revolves around, yet itself isn't broken. I hate even calling these pro-ban arguments evidence just because they're so bad and can just be solved through prediction and smart teambuilding! Isn't that to be encouraged? Seriously, play smarter. I compare King's Shield to Protect because they are variations of each other in which King's Shield can be played around as non-contact and status moves go through it. And unlike Protect, Aegislashs are KNOWN to carry it. Instead of just twisting every single point I make into a biased ban post, can no one see these points? And how it actually CAN be played around with sheer intelligence?
A lot of what I see people talk about is this odd idea of a 50/50. Which, if I've gathered enough from this thread, is that the move king's shield is broken on aegislash because of the fact that Aegislash can learn it. This gives the opponent the choice of prediction: Will the aegislash use KS or not? That is the 50/50.
What KS does is that it protects aegislash from all damaging moves for one turn (including feint, I think) while letting nondamaging moves such as will-o-wisp pass through, and if the attack makes contact, the opponent's attack is lowered by two.
Hmph, that's a lot to take in. Not many moves have that much that needs to be considered. Let's consider the (I think) standard build:
Aegislash @ leftovers
Quiet 252 Hp/252 SpA/4 Att
-shadow ball
-KS
-Sacred Sword
-Shadow Sneak
Now, I made a chart using 4 pkmn that could beat aegislash almost hands down without KS with sub-chandelure, AV-conkeldurr, MegaZard X and Banded Weavile. While chandelure is a special attacker, the 50/50 gave her just that: 50/50 in terms of options, but some were better than others. Attacking had a chance to kill aegi with an OHKO, but if aegi lives, chandy is dead. 50% win for chandy. While if Chandy attacks and aegi KS, Aegi knows what going to happen and will react accordingly. 100% win for aegi. If chandy uses sub, she either has a new sub (100% win for chandy), or aegi is left in blade form for more shenanigans next turn (50% win for Chandy). With smart players, these scenarios give chandy a more or less 50/50 chance to win or lose v Aegislash.
As for the other side, MegaZard X as a setup sweeper deals way stranger with Aegi. If he Blitzes and hits a KS, blitz will only do a 2HKO as opposed to an OHKO, and shadow ball deals the same damage, but with shadow sneak killing Zard if he has any prior damage (such as recoil). Zard loses in this case. If they both attack, Zard wins. If neither attack, Zard is in at +1/+1, and there is only a 50% chance aegi can KS next turn. If Zard takes that KS, Blitz does 98%, does not kill, but really dents aegi. Zard then dies to a shadow ball. If Zard uses DD while Aegi shadow balls, the stakes are a lot higher. A shadow sneak might not kill him, but if aegi switches out, something is going to get hit hard, or the damage can get roosted away. Aegi can KS, but he might expect it and DD making the situation worse for aegi. In one situation, zard always wins. In another, he loses, but Aegislash is somewhat dented. In the other two, Aegi can pull through, but it will take skills. This appears to be another even 50/50.
For the others, the situation APPEARS to be worse. Conk, an all out tank, can take 3 Shadow balls before succumbing. If he attacks while Aegi KS, conk cannot OHKO anymore. Next turn, aegi can switch out or proceed to shadow ball twice before dying, or throw in another KS to maybe survive to kill conk. Tie. If conk uses a fighting move while aegi uses KS, aegi has a 50% chance to proc KS again. If KS procs and conk uses knock off, he takes minus two and is at the above scenario. If it doesn't, Aegi takes 60%, and is left with shadow ball v KS again. Aegi loses if he attacks after the useless KS. Conk wins, but not by a very large margin. If both attack, Conk wins. If Conk uses a fighting move when aegi attacks, conk is put in a worse position than he was before. Aegi can either KS, most likely, or go for another shadow ball and die to a knock off or get another fighting move. Aegi wins by a little. So there's a tie, a win for conk, a slight win by conk and a slight win by aegi. NOBODY WINS. 50/50.
Just imagine Banded weavile as conk, but the options are attack or switch, k? this is a lot of writing.
For many of the pokemon that aegi will switch in on, the answer is either predict the switch, sacrifice or switch to sacrifice. Many pokemon do this, because many pokemon have checks. It just so happens that Aegi is a check and counter to A LOT of pokemon due to it's typing and bulk and power.
The point of every move is to make it so that you, the player, will form some form of edge over your opponent. In the situations above, attacking off the bat is the riskiest play with an OHKO imminent, and with KS being your first move You've either crippled your opponent, but not killed them, or gave them the chance to setup. In neither case has anyone really won, because this can be played around.
So as for my final verdict: KS gives a slight edge to the smarter player, who should already have the edge because he is the smarter player. I'd vote for no ban if I could, but I don't think I'm eligible. I would be OK with a ban though, because I could see aegi doing well as a giratina counter and I can do whatever I want in my game.
What KS does is that it protects aegislash from all damaging moves for one turn (including feint, I think) while letting nondamaging moves such as will-o-wisp pass through, and if the attack makes contact, the opponent's attack is lowered by two.
Hmph, that's a lot to take in. Not many moves have that much that needs to be considered. Let's consider the (I think) standard build:
Aegislash @ leftovers
Quiet 252 Hp/252 SpA/4 Att
-shadow ball
-KS
-Sacred Sword
-Shadow Sneak
Now, I made a chart using 4 pkmn that could beat aegislash almost hands down without KS with sub-chandelure, AV-conkeldurr, MegaZard X and Banded Weavile. While chandelure is a special attacker, the 50/50 gave her just that: 50/50 in terms of options, but some were better than others. Attacking had a chance to kill aegi with an OHKO, but if aegi lives, chandy is dead. 50% win for chandy. While if Chandy attacks and aegi KS, Aegi knows what going to happen and will react accordingly. 100% win for aegi. If chandy uses sub, she either has a new sub (100% win for chandy), or aegi is left in blade form for more shenanigans next turn (50% win for Chandy). With smart players, these scenarios give chandy a more or less 50/50 chance to win or lose v Aegislash.
As for the other side, MegaZard X as a setup sweeper deals way stranger with Aegi. If he Blitzes and hits a KS, blitz will only do a 2HKO as opposed to an OHKO, and shadow ball deals the same damage, but with shadow sneak killing Zard if he has any prior damage (such as recoil). Zard loses in this case. If they both attack, Zard wins. If neither attack, Zard is in at +1/+1, and there is only a 50% chance aegi can KS next turn. If Zard takes that KS, Blitz does 98%, does not kill, but really dents aegi. Zard then dies to a shadow ball. If Zard uses DD while Aegi shadow balls, the stakes are a lot higher. A shadow sneak might not kill him, but if aegi switches out, something is going to get hit hard, or the damage can get roosted away. Aegi can KS, but he might expect it and DD making the situation worse for aegi. In one situation, zard always wins. In another, he loses, but Aegislash is somewhat dented. In the other two, Aegi can pull through, but it will take skills. This appears to be another even 50/50.
For the others, the situation APPEARS to be worse. Conk, an all out tank, can take 3 Shadow balls before succumbing. If he attacks while Aegi KS, conk cannot OHKO anymore. Next turn, aegi can switch out or proceed to shadow ball twice before dying, or throw in another KS to maybe survive to kill conk. Tie. If conk uses a fighting move while aegi uses KS, aegi has a 50% chance to proc KS again. If KS procs and conk uses knock off, he takes minus two and is at the above scenario. If it doesn't, Aegi takes 60%, and is left with shadow ball v KS again. Aegi loses if he attacks after the useless KS. Conk wins, but not by a very large margin. If both attack, Conk wins. If Conk uses a fighting move when aegi attacks, conk is put in a worse position than he was before. Aegi can either KS, most likely, or go for another shadow ball and die to a knock off or get another fighting move. Aegi wins by a little. So there's a tie, a win for conk, a slight win by conk and a slight win by aegi. NOBODY WINS. 50/50.
Just imagine Banded weavile as conk, but the options are attack or switch, k? this is a lot of writing.
For many of the pokemon that aegi will switch in on, the answer is either predict the switch, sacrifice or switch to sacrifice. Many pokemon do this, because many pokemon have checks. It just so happens that Aegi is a check and counter to A LOT of pokemon due to it's typing and bulk and power.
The point of every move is to make it so that you, the player, will form some form of edge over your opponent. In the situations above, attacking off the bat is the riskiest play with an OHKO imminent, and with KS being your first move You've either crippled your opponent, but not killed them, or gave them the chance to setup. In neither case has anyone really won, because this can be played around.
So as for my final verdict: KS gives a slight edge to the smarter player, who should already have the edge because he is the smarter player. I'd vote for no ban if I could, but I don't think I'm eligible. I would be OK with a ban though, because I could see aegi doing well as a giratina counter and I can do whatever I want in my game.
With commonly used sets, any reasonably strong even neutral attack will do serious damage to it even in shield forme, remember this thing only has 60 base HP. You can pretty much bring in any special sweeper(Thundurus, Greninja, Rotom-W, Volcarona, Keldeo, etc) and spam special moves until it dies. Same goes with anything faster that has Earthquake. I don't think aegislash is uncompetitive due to 50/50s brought on by King's Shield when you can use widely available moves that are not contact moves/abilities that ignore the atk drop, or just taunt it and watch it die even faster in sword forme.
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I like what you say--agree with it, even--but "Play better" isn't really an acceptable counterpoint in a suspect test.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that there are more than just Aegislash on any given team. Chances are if the trainer knows it's up against something that can OHKO it, it'll switch out to a counter.
Also, you're completely wrong about serious damage in shield forme, bar Earthquake/Flamethrower/Overheat, and even then chances are they won't KO if Aegislash is in shield forme.
Regarding the chomp vs mawile example (b/c I agree with pretty much everything else you said), you have to realize that this is a mawile at +2. THERE ARE NO SWITCH-INS. You can't play the switch game here because nothing is going to take that play rough! So what if they sucker punch as you successfully get something in? Well, then you're at the same predicament again, just this time with a different mon and (hopefully) a slightly better matchup. Even attempting to switch in a pokemon (lets say specs keldeo) is incredibly risky because even though keldeo can take a +2 sucker and revenge kill with a safe specs scald, do you want to risk switching keldeo in? That's a 50/50 right there! Ok, I don't want to take that risk, but what can I do with garchomp? ANOTHER 50/50! So you can't really avoid the brutal guessing game that mega mawile plays by switching around.
I do realize the difference between KS and Sucker Punch in regards to 50/50s, but again, i just wanted to clear it up.
This really just shows me that you don't know what a counter is :I
A counter can switch into its target consistently on every move it has and can then proceed to cripple or kill it.
Heatran cannot switch into sacred sword safely lol, idk why you think it can take two:
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 176-208 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And I don't think i have to calc a garchomp taking a shadow ball from aegislash to show you that it doesn't switch in too well.
These pokemon are checks; pokemon that can beat aegislash given a free switch-in. There aren't a lot of pokemon that can take ANY two hits from aegislash, which is what a counter does.
Except for the 50/50 argument, those points are not the main argument for banning Aegislash; rather, they are elements of varying applicability and intensity which combine to create the problem that Aegislash causes. Basically, it boils down to how large of an affect Aegislash has on the tier. Many Pokemon are running sub-optimal coverage for Aegislash, many Pokemon are flat-out less viable because of that or because they can't touch Aegislash, etc. Now this is not an inherently bad thing. Every top threat has this effect. However, the problem lies in how disproportionate Aegislash's impact is.
Just look at how significantly the OU metagame changes when Aegi is removed. The tier is practically flipped upside-down. Can you name any other top threat which would cause such an intense shift if it were removed? Talonflame, Char X, Landorus, etc are some of the most influential Pokemon in the tier, and they don't even come close to having such a drastic impact as Aegislash. Would such an effect occur if multiple of these Pokemon were removed? Yes, which brings me to my point.
As I said before, Aegislash's effect on the metagame is not inherently bad in and of itself. The problem lies in how Aegislash is affecting the tier in ways which are worthy of multiple Pokemon. In other words, Aegislash's impact on the tier is excessive for one Pokemon to have. I'm going to quote Jukain again since he says it perfectly:
Of course Aegislash isn't the sole centralizing force in OU, but his impact is on par with the combined centralization of multiple of his top-tier counterparts. This is what I've maintained to be the unhealthy aspect of Aegislash, and that is why he deserves to be banned.
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