Resource RU Viability Ranking

[atomicllamas]

Nothing with an eviolite is a switchin to physical zoroark, js.

Except it still walls all Physical and Physically based Mixed Zoro's unless they have extrasensory, sure it sucks losing eviolite, but being able to poop on Zoro is something that I am willing to sacrifice some of my bulk for. Gurdurr is definitely a B+ pokemon in the Meta at the moment, as it is one of the best responses to Sharpedo and Zoroark and /can/ give stall trouble depending on its composition.

Water Drone please stop posting one-liners like this, they don't help the discussion at all.

 

[Afro Smash]

Lol, Gurdurr still walls Physical Zoroark without its Eviolite

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gurdurr: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gurdurr: 183-217 (48.9 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Assuming you switch in the SD, there's no feasible way Zorark can kill you unless you are severely weakened.

Mixed is a more difficult to wall without Eviolite, but not really Physical.

Bop i got ninja'd hard

 

[complete legitimacy]

Gurdurr should be A- at the worst.

molk pls

 

[complete legitimacy]

please stop posting one-liners ... they don't help the discussion at all.

bop

 

[Water Drone]

Except it still walls all Physical and Physically based Mixed Zoro's unless they have extrasensory, sure it sucks losing eviolite, but being able to poop on Zoro is something that I am willing to sacrifice some of my bulk for. Gurdurr is definitely a B+ pokemon in the Meta at the moment, as it is one of the best responses to Sharpedo and Zoroark and /can/ give stall trouble depending on its composition.

Water Drone please stop posting one-liners like this, they don't help the discussion at all.

Gurdurr is outclassed by most fighting types without its eviolite, what makes you want to use it after its gone. You might as well use Throh. Sorry about my posts if you dont like them you guys just seem to shrug off anything I say, I suppose ill just post less.

 

[cacturne]

Gurdurr is outclassed by mist fighting types without its eviolite, what makes you want to use it after its gone. You might as well use Throh.

Throh doesnt get drain punch or mach punch and no one was saying a gurrdurr after its eviolite was incredible. But gurrdurr will always be able to counter zoroark and sharpedo eviolite or not and that's a massive niche.

Overall gurrdurr is good thoh is irrelevant and lurk moar imo

 

[Water Drone]

I didnt say it couldnt wall them. All I said is it cant switch into a Knock Off. Zoro can very easily switch out and youre stuck with a p bad mon. All I was saying is it doesnt appreciate knock off as it ruins the whole reason to use it. And exactly, throh is irellevant, just like Gurdurr without evio. Maybe heres a better comparison. Its worse than hitmochan without eviolite.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Gurdurr is outclassed by most fighting types without its eviolite, what makes you want to use it after its gone. You might as well use Throh. Sorry about my posts if you dont like them you guys just seem to shrug off anything I say, I suppose ill just post less.

If you've actually looked at the calcs posted depicting Gurdurr's matchup against Zoroark, you can see it doesn't suffer from whatever flaw you make it out to be. The moves this Pokémon has make it a fantastic Pokémon. Besides, even after losing its Eviolite, Gurdurr just shreds Zoroark with priority Mach Punch or just Drain Punches to recover lost health.

I recommend you actually play the game before posting assumptions here.

I didnt say it couldnt wall them. All I said is it cant switch into a Knock Off. Zoro can very easily switch out and youre stuck with a p bad mon. All I was saying is it doesnt appreciate knock off as it ruins the whole reason to use it. And exactly, throh is irellevant, just like Gurdurr without evio. Maybe heres a better comparison. Its worse than hitmochan without eviolite.

If Throh is irrelevant, why the fuck do you even bring it up in the first place? Your almost instantaneous contradictions are fucking hilarious. Gurdurr is still far better than Hitmonchan even with Eviolite. Stop assuming things.

 

[Water Drone]

Youre not listening. I said sure it still checks those mons. Just might as well use Hitmonchan if it lost its eviolite. Hitmonchan has an eually good if not better movepool. No need to be rude man. It actually does suffer because its fucked defensively after a knock off.
And I was saying Throh because its irellevant, just like Gurdurr without an eviolite. If you cant get it through your thick skull I dont know what to say. You are making such a huge deal out of nothing. Id like to drop this.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

It counters them. Not checks.

If it still beats them hard after losing its eviolite, then its a counter. Just leave it, you're in the wrong here.

 

[Afro Smash]

Actually Gurdurr after losing its Eviolite is still a lot physically bulkier than Hitmonchan, and Gurdurr isn't guaranteed to lose its Eviolite every game, so Gurdurr is still a far better choice for Countering Zoroark. Throh is irrelevant since its never seen in RU and its movepool is completely different.

If you want this to be dropped then accept you were mistaken and stop trying to defend your obviously flawed argument.

(This is comin from a Hitmonfan too)

llamas edit: you shouldn't admit to being a hitmonfan fren ;o

 

[Water Drone]

Im talking about a specific situation in which it is knocked off. Im not saying use hitmochan because its better, im simply saying gurdurr doesnt appreciate knock off. I may have worded it wrong, sorry, but thats what I was trying to say. Im sorry about the one liner, I was just saying it doesnt appreciate knock off (not like anything does). Nothing else. I understand now my original post was unneeded but you guys made such a big deal out of it. Geez ill leave it alone.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Im talking about a specific situation in which it is knocked off. Im not saying use hitmochan because its better, im simply saying gurdurr doesnt appreciate knock off. I may have worded it wrong, sorry, but thats what I was trying to say. Im sorry about the one liner, I was just saying it doesnt appreciate knock off (not like anything does). Nothing else. I understand now my original post was unneeded but you guys made such a big deal out of it. Geez ill leave it alone.

We didn't make a big deal out of it. All we did was point out the flaws in your argumentation, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Molk]

I'd just like to drop in and say that the sentiment that Hitmonchan has a better movepool than Gurdurr is actually false. Gurdurr gets every relevant STAB and coverage move that Hitmonchan learns, and along with that has access to the coveted Knock Off that Hitmonchan can't use. On top of this, Gurdurr has the same base Attack stat and even potential ability as Hitmonchan in Iron Fist. When it comes to movepool the only thing Hitmonchan has over Gurdurr is Rapid Spin, and when it struggles so much with the most common spinblockers in the tier and recieves competition from both of the other Hitmons, i have a really hard time justifying its use :x.

EDIT: Also, what does everyone think of dropping Braviary back down to B+ rank? It's still a pretty solid Pokemon all around (subBU is a big pain for stall teams, CB hits super hard, and scarf is a decent revenge killer/pivot), but with both Froslass and Shuckle leaving the tier it lost a major niche as a teammate for both of these Pokemon to help discourage Defog. On top of this, two of Braviary's best checks in Rhyperior and Doublade are currently very very common in the metagame (RU's 1760 stats have Doublade at almost 30% usage), and i'd say that a good 50% of teams have at least one of them atm, which decreases its effectiveness as a pure wallbreaker/cleaner a bit imo.

 

[Water Drone]

I agree with hitmon being bad, im not justifying its use. Im saying gurdurr without its eviolite is very similar to hitmonchan..aka bad. I wont be replying further on gurdurr, sorry.

 

[BASED]

good you and your arguments are stupid

 

[HypnoEmpire]

I support Moltres moving up to S rank.

Moltres is monster. When Choice Specs Moltres is capable of 2HKOing AV Slowking after Stealth Rock with Hurricane, you know this thing is powerful. What can wall Moltres? Rhyperior? It switches into an HP Grass and its toast. I'm looking through every Pokemon in RU and I can't find a single Pokemon that can't be 2HKOd by this thing. Arguably the best special absorber in the tier, AV Slowking, can't even switch in without fearing the 2HKO. This is impressive in its own right. An S rank Pokemon, Delphox, has a 1.2% chance to 2HKO AV Slowking with a Choice Specs Grass Knot after Stealth Rock. Some may argue that it can cripple walls using Switcheroo, so it doesn't need to break through them. Here's the problem with this: If my Choice Specs Pokemon can't break through the things I want it too, what is the point of using it? I would much rather use Yanmega or Moltres since it can actually crush its targets. Fainting the opposing Pokemon > crippling the opposing Pokemon. Moltres also has another trait that it can abuse with choice items: U-turn. Moltres can crush walls AND pivot at the same time. Okay, so here's the real question: Why use Moltres over Yanmega? First, while Yanmega is ridiculously powerful with Choice Specs and Tinted Lens, it is still checked by common stall Pokemon such as Registeel and Aromatisse while its countered by obscure things such as Lickilicky and Togetic. Choice Specs Moltres can cleanly 2HKO all of these Pokemon after Stealth Rock.

Now, I would like to talk about another Moltres set that I've been using to much success: 3 Attacks + Roost LO Moltres. One of the biggest problems I've had with Delphox is that it's difficult for it to switch into anything due to the prevalence of Knock Off. With Delphox's pitiful physical bulk, its Knock Off weakness is hurtful, and it doesn't help that almost every wall and physically offensive Pokemon can run it successfully. Now, I know Moltres has a x4 Stealth Rock weakness, but it has reliable recovery and it has ample opportunities to use it against a variety of Pokemon. It can also use Sub Toxic. Moltres for S rank!

 

[Mew2]

I support Moltres moving up to S rank.

Moltres is monster. When Choice Specs Moltres is capable of 2HKOing AV Slowking after Stealth Rock with Hurricane, you know this thing is powerful. What can wall Moltres? Rhyperior? It switches into an HP Grass and its toast. I'm looking through every Pokemon in RU and I can't find a single Pokemon that can't be 2HKOd by this thing. Arguably the best special absorber in the tier, AV Slowking, can't even switch in without fearing the 2HKO. This is impressive in its own right. An S rank Pokemon, Delphox, has a 1.2% chance to 2HKO AV Slowking with a Choice Specs Grass Knot after Stealth Rock. Some may argue that it can cripple walls using Switcheroo, so it doesn't need to break through them. Here's the problem with this: If my Choice Specs Pokemon can't break through the things I want it too, what is the point of using it? I would much rather use Yanmega or Moltres since it can actually crush its targets. Fainting the opposing Pokemon > crippling the opposing Pokemon. Moltres also has another trait that it can abuse with choice items: U-turn. Moltres can crush walls AND pivot at the same time. Okay, so here's the real question: Why use Moltres over Yanmega? First, while Yanmega is ridiculously powerful with Choice Specs and Tinted Lens, it is still checked by common stall Pokemon such as Registeel and Aromatisse while its countered by obscure things such as Lickilicky and Togetic. Choice Specs Moltres can cleanly 2HKO all of these Pokemon after Stealth Rock.

The problem of Specs Moltres is that it has to rely on moves with shitty accuarcy like Fire Blast and Hurricane while Yanmega doesn't worry about Bug Buzz hitting and we ALL know how it feels when you lose a match because your Moltres is blind as Steve Wonder so if Moltres goes to S rank it shouldn't be because of its Specs set but because its other sets like Sub Roost and 3 attacks LO + Roost.

 

[Molk]

Alright it's time for a few updates

Updates

Dugtrio up to A- rank
Tauros added to B- rank
Gurdurr up to B+ rank
Eelektross up to B rank
Delphox down to A+ rank
Reuniclus down to A rank

I'd like to see some more discussion on Braviary, Moltres, and the other Pokemon that i brought up on page 28 before moving their ranks, for reference the mons proposed that i havent reached a conclusion on are:

Amoonguss up to A/A+
Gligar up to A/A+
Escavalier down to A/A-
Crustle from C- to C
Jolteon from A- to A

If you disagree with a change made feel free to discuss that too

 

[EonX]

Try to cover what I feel experienced enough with:

Delphox: I am pretty torn on this one. On the one hand, Delphox has a difficult time with some of the top Pokemon in the tier (Zoroark, Shark, Jolteon, Slowking, Druddigon to an extent, etc.) but on the other, Delphox is one of few offensive Pokemon that can double as a wallbreaker and a sweeper with one set (LO Calm Mind) If you don't have AV Slowking or AV Druddigon, the Specs set is just obliterating something. Psyshock even makes AV Druddigon's life a bit tricky. While it probably isn't quite as good as it was when it first moved to S rank, I still feel Delphox is a good enough offensive Pokemon to warrant a spot in S rank. I know it has a hard time with Zoroark and AV Slowking, but without AV Slowking, you don't have a fullproof switch-in to its best set, which is LO Calm Mind (it typically runs Fire Blast, Psyshock, and Grass Knot) and if the opponent has a Zoroark (or some other faster physical attacker) just play LO Calm Mind as a wallbreaker.

Amoonguss: Amoonguss is definitely a reliable Pokemon right now. It's capable of forming great defensive and balance cores quite easily thanks to its typing. It's a great mixed wall capable of working well with the likes of Slowking, Moltres, Rhyperior, and more thanks to its typing, bulk, and ability in Regenerator. Spore is fantastic support and Clear Smog is really nice for boosting sweepers that don't use Substitute. It suffers from being weak to a fair few top threats in Delphox, Yanmega, and Moltres (among others) but it can also serve as a reliable check to others, like Rhyperior, Sharpedo, and Virizion. Solid A rank Pokemon that's rather easy to form balanced and defensive cores with imo

Moltres: I consider myself one of the more experienced Moltres players around as my oldest team features one. Anyway, Moltres is a fantastic Pokemon. With a fantastic Special Attack, great dual STAB combination, underrated defensive typing, usable defenses, and respectable Speed, Moltres seemingly has everything it needs to be S rank. The problem? A few actually. First of all would be the Stealth Rock weakness. Now, this may not seem like a huge issue considering that Hitmonlee and Kabutops have good synergy with Tres and have Rapid Spin, but they also have an unfavorable matchup vs. Doublade, the most common spinblocker in the tier. Combine this with the fact that Moltres doesn't have good synergy with most Defog users, outside of Shiftry, and it can be a bit of a challenge to control hazards when using Moltres. Next would be accuracy. My god accuracy sucks. Try going a whole match, using Hurricane 6 times, AND MISSING 5 OF THEM. Yeah, accuracy issues are real and will generally betray you at the worst possible time. The last is AV Slowking. So long as this guy is around, Moltres isn't breaking walls or sweeping any time soon. Specs is just a poor choice on a 4x Rocks weak Pokemon when LO gives you the same notable KOes outside of King (and you're relying on Hurricane hitting twice in a row...) Moltres is fantastic, but it has a few flaws that hold it back from S rank imo.

Jolteon: I used this on a recent team of mine that I used to test something else out, and I was a bit surprised at how well it held its own. Jolteon has great utility on offensive teams as it's the only viable offensive Wish passer in the tier. If Wish passing isn't your cup of tea, then perhaps fast Volt Switches are. Jolteon outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame sans Accelgor (and random aids crap like Electrode and Ninjask) while having just enough coverage to get by, making it a very reliable late-game cleaner. Jolteon happens to work well with two of the best special attacking wallbreakers, Moltres and Clawitzer, and is able to either support them with Wish (especially useful for Clawitzer) or simply take advantage of their wallbreaking prowess by cleaning up what they leave behind. Jolteon's great natural Speed, solid power, offensive utility in the form of Wish and Volt Switch, and access to just enough coverage to clean late-game gives it enough for A rank imo.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Supporting Amoonguss for A+: Amazing Defensive typing that deals with a majority of the Water-, Grass-, Electric-, and Fairy-types in the tier, immune to Toxic, Regenerator, Spore, as well as a movepool consisting of moves such as Foul Play, Stun Spore, and even Synthesis make this thing SOOOO hard to take down. Just a really good mon overall that I think should move up.

Supporting Gligar for A: Best Defogger in the tier IMO, great for removing hazards. Very bulky and can take on most physically offensive Pokemon quite easily. Also has U-turn to help make this thing a lot less of a momentum killer, which is nice. I don't like A+ though because this thing is piss weak and can be set up on pretty easily, though it's an otherwise great mon.

Supporting Escavalier for A: Really hates hazards, as they make it much easier to take out, which sucks when hazard offense is really common right now. Is a dead weight once burned, and isn't exactly the hardest to wall. Choice Band hits hard but isn't as bulky, and its STAB moves aren't necessarily the best to be locked into. A fits it fine.

Support Crustle for C: This thing has gotten better w/ Shuckle gone, even though it's still pretty outclassed by Omastar / Accelgor. C is fine.

Don't really care about Jolteon. I've personally found it pretty easy to wall and take out, though it is really fast and SubPass works really well. I'll let other people decide that.

 

[CutForBiebarel]

Anyways I am starting two different movements to correct what I see as major flaws in the ru viability rankings.
Here we go
1. Delphox should most definitely be returned to the S tier. To put it quite simply, it is nearly impossible to wall with smart play. In my experience the only pokemon I have seen that can wall it are moltres and av slowking, and both of these have some issues. If rocks are up, moltres cannot come in or it WILL be 2hkoed and eliminated. If slowking loses its av to knock off then it is 2hkoed as well by grass knot, and calm mind LO sets can break slowking down, albeit with some difficulty. Other than those two sets, there are NO other pokes that can wall delphox (That I can think of at least). With an excellent speed of 104, great coverage, and a variety of powerful sets, delphox can break through any stall team with proper play.
2. Audino is what I believe to be the premiere special wall in the ru tier. It has amazing bulk, a great support move pool (wish protect heal bell) and access to the almight knock off. More importantly though, it has the most broken ability in the game (other than parental bond lol), regenerator. With regenerator involved audino can switch out more easily, and furthermore it can wish pass to any poke and switch back in at full. This makes it invaluable to supporting a team and allows it to out class other special walls of the same nature (that is, aromatisse and slowbro). I believe that audino should receive the respect it deserves as an amazing special wall in the tier and should be placed in the A rank if not A+ outright.
Oh ya, and one more thing.
Banmega
That is all

Oh yeah and as evidence of the dominance of audino watch this replay. It walls 3 pokemon with specs and even 1 with a band.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-142747820

 

[Mew2]

Braviary: I was never a fan of this thing especially the offensive sets because if you are using CB you get revenge killed easily CS lacks power even at +2 and gets walled by Doublade. LO and Bulk Up are my favorite sets but LO again, gets revenge killed easily and Sub BU gets walled by Rhyperior and Doublade two of the most common walls on the tier so in conclusion B+ seems fine to me.

Gligar: The bulkiest defoger of the tier also has an awesome typing, great defenses and good speed for a wall. It also has a great movepool consisting of gems such as knock off, U-turn, taunt, roost, defog and even batton pass and can give your team a lot of momentum if used correctly. A fantasic mon I think it deserves A+ rank.

Amoonguss: Great mixed bulk with a fantastic ability and a good typing already scream for good pokemon but when you add support gems such as Foul Play and Spore you can easily see a solid A rank pokemon that can fit into nearlt any team that needs an bulky pivot.

Delphox: CM+LO is a good set on paper but on practice 9 out of 10 times it gets revenge killed by faster pokes or priority and in a tier were Zoroark, Sharpedo and Jolteon run the tier Delphox rarely finds an opportunity to set up and sweep not mentioning its horrible weakness to hazards and bad defensive typing A+ looks fine to me.

Audino: I tried Audino on a stall team and I must say that it gave me decent results and it can make a good Reggenerator core with Alomomola but it's bulk sometimes isn't enough to wall RU's top special attackers like Meloetta and Delphox. On the bright side it has a nice movepool for a wall with gems such as Wish, Heal Bell and Knock off so in conclusion C- looks perfect for Audino.

Jolteon: I was the one who nominated Jolteon to A rank and I still think it deserves it. Being the fastes pokemon in a tier full of offensive threats such as Zoro, Moltres, Yanmega and Hitmonlee is a gift and when you add good stats, fantastic movepool and great ability you get a Jolteon; great pokemon, fits into nearly every team, has mulityple of sets solid A+ rank in my opinion.

Finally I nominate Yanmega for S rank (again) we all know that if you don't have Registeel on your team you are having a hard time with Specs tinted lens and the fact that some people want to give Yanmega a suspect test already talks about a S ranked poke sure Sr sorta balance its power but SR aren't in every team and spinners / defogers exist.

 

[phantom]

There's no way in hell Amoonguss or Gligar are A+, come on now, that is a ridiculous exaggeration. lol They're just fine where they are tbh.

Both of these Pokemon are very easy to exploit as a result of their lack of offensive presence and can be used as setup bait by a number of dangerous threats (Bulk Up Braviary, CM Cresselia, Reuniclus, just to name a few). Gligar's problem is that, while it can function w/o Eviolite, it becomes so much easier to overwhelm and pressure as a result, and Amoonguss issue is that it's damn predictable and does nothing outside of sitting there and tanking attacks, unless you count Sleep as "something". They're also not perfect at their roles either, Gligar can be stopped by Taunt, discouraged by Braviary, etc, while Amoonguss has a metric fuckton of exploitable weaknesses that can be picked at.

I think we actually need to establish what A+ means. I would think that they're for Pokemon that significantly influence the metagame and can ruin you by having a team weak to such threats. I've never run into a situation were I was Amoonguss or Gligar weak simply because you can handle those two by default by just having a good team, and neither of them really have much of a lasting influence were you specifically carry a coverage move to throw them off like in the case of Escavalier or Rhyperior (at least not to the extent of those two). They're both good at what they do, but they are far from perfect or even exceptional given the number of roadblocks that hold them back.

Furthermore, Moltres isn't S rank either. 4x SR weakness and above average Speed at best do it no favors. While it's true that Moltres can switch in on more threats than Delphox, Delphox, however, doesn't mandate the level of support Moltres does, where you're required to carry Spin / Defog support. You can actually get by using Delphox without either tbh considering 50% of its health isn't sniped upon switch in. Furthermore, Delphox is both faster than Moltres, which allows it to pull its weight rather well on offense, while also possessing the capability to boost its stats which makes it a nightmare for stall. Speaking of which, coming from a stall player's perspective, CM Delphox is the most annoying shit to prepare for because a lot of its checks tend to overlap with common stall staples, examples being Slowking and Alomomola. I feel that the way it warps team building in a defensive perspective in tandem with the number of effective sets it can run, and less reliance on support in the same way Moltres is, while also being able to do fairly well against offense keeps it in S rank. Had demoting Delphox been brought up in the Sticky Web meta, this might have had merit, but now it's back to what it was before that hellish cancer.

tl;dr

Gligar and Amoonguss are overrated as shit, don't move them up.

Moltres in S rank is a complete joke given its middling speed, 4x rocks weakness, and shit accuracy STAB.

Delphox restricts defensive builds way too much to be lower than S-rank, not to mention that it can hold its own against offense fairly well by virtue of its great Speed.

 

[HypnoEmpire]

I would support Audino moving to C-/C rank, but not more than that.

It has many flaws, as it has very poor offensive presence and no way to hit for consistent damage, meaning literally anything with a setup move can set up on it, and it's Taunt bait. However, it does have some saving graces. Wish + Regenerator is an amazing combo and it's further backed up by Heal Bell. It also has access to Thunder Wave, which is pretty cool. I think that's all it has going for it. Its bulk isn't really anything special compared to some other walls. I think that's all I wanted to say about that.