np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Sun King]

Can't you say the same thing about Swagger, though? Defensive Pokemon like Rotom-W, Mandibuzz and Chansey took nothing from confusion damage and Foul Play.

Correct--and I never really had much of a problem with Swag Play aside from the 100 turns of confusion, personally. However, SwagPlay very clearly was uncompetitive, whereas Aegislash is not.

EDIT: Maybe I'm not really understanding your point, because I don't really see what Swagger has to do with Chesnaught being viable on stall.

 

[Luckstard.]

Alexwolf's third reason to ban a 'mon is the crux of this suspect test. Most (not all) people agree that Aegislash isn't truly overpowered in the "classic" sense (the first reason), and there's been discussion about KS 50/50s (which fall under the second reason), but the main thrust here undoubtedly falls under the third reason to ban.

• The first question: Does Aegislash's presence have a negative effect on the tier?
  • This is pretty subjective. Some point to how Aegislash strains teambuilding by forcing the inclusion of multiple checks (for offense) or making it more difficult for Stall to fit everything they need into a team. Some point to how Aegislash single-handedly forces 'mons like Terrakion and Pinsir to run sub-optimal coverage moves. Yet others would say that Aegislash keeps the meta in check by limiting the viability of certain Pokemon, either through outright walling them or, again, forcing a coverage move.
• The second question: Is Aegislash's effect on the tier excessive for one Pokemon to have, regardless of whether the effect is ultimately beneficial or not?
  • Again, this is subjective, because it matters where you draw the line. Does Aegislash force too many Pokemon to run coverage moves? Does Aegislash limit the viability of too many Pokemon for being a single influence in the tier? My opinion is that Aegislash has too much of an effect for a single Pokemon, but if the impact caused by him was due to multiple Pokemon, then there wouldn't be a problem.

Overall, it's all up to personal opinion here. Whether or not the meta is better without Aegislash, and whether or not Aegislash's impact is too much for one 'mon, is subjective. After all, if it wasn't, then we wouldn't need suspect tests in the first place.

When I read "by forcing the inclusion of multiple checks (for offense) or making it more difficult for Stall to fit everything they need into a team." I always remember that was an argument when Keldeo was suspected in BW.
All big threats forcing to take multiple check, for example, you can't just run Mega-Venusaur to counter Keldeo, you can't just run Latias to check M-Charizard-Y,...
And I don't think Terrakion is a good example to show that Aegis forces to run sub-optimal coverage moves, because Terrakion has a pretty poor movepool (but really effective), what would you want to run over Earthquake?
Pinsir is a better choice but there is the problem of coverage on last move with a lot of other mons such as Garchomp, Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, M-Mawile, M-Scizor,... And all because of one mon.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Chesnaught gets beat hard by the sub toxic set because if you outspeed you can simply toxic stall it to death. Or if you run negative speed you can tank hits. Obviously Chesnaught is still a solid counter to the other sets but sub toxic is definitely one of the better sets and the fact Chesnaught gets beat by it isn't a good thing.

Also anybody else find it funny bulletproof doesn't block flash cannon?

 

[Rajikaru]

Also anybody else find it funny bulletproof doesn't block flash cannon?

I'd assume it has to do with the move being based on a light energy attack, and not an actual ball of matter.

 

[luckypokes]

Not that my opinion is needed, I do have two points to make here.

1) Whenever I am battling, whether it be showdown or wifi battle, and I see an Aegislash, I automatically think about what I can do with my team to deal with it. It is an extraordinarily threatening pokemon and deserves such treatment.

2) I never once told myself that I was going to lose, or even lose a pokemon for that matter, to an Aegislash. Yeah, there are situations where it has completely screwed me over in a situation; however, that happens with a lot of pokes.

It's a dangerous pokemon, no doubt, but I don't think I've ever told myself that I think it should be banned (as I have with talonflame, even though I was only saying it because I was salty). The 50/50 gets taken out of the factor almost completely when dealing with moves such as Earthquake or really any special fire, ghost, or dark type move. Predictions are easily made depending on the situation. Oh, its in attack form and prone to an earthquake? Let me set up or switch out into something that can OHKO it. Oh, its in shield form but can't OHKO my mon? Go for the attack twice. Point is, I rarely find myself in a position where I HAVE to use a contact move to even activate King Shield's secondary effect. At that point, its just a trickier protect. Again, Aegislash is not an easy poke to deal with, but neither is Mega-Venasaur, Talonflame, or a bunch of other mons in the OU metagame.

 

[ICBM]

I'm sure some people will take one look at my Join Date/Messages and discard anything I say, however I'm not new to the tier, just the forums.
Personally I don't think Aegislash should be banned. I do indeed use an Aegislash in my actual X Team as well as on an OUMono and OU team. I am not doing this to salvage my teams, however, as I believe that while Aegislash has versatility it can absolutely be stopped when you know what the opponent is running. The most common sets I have seen feature a total of 8 moves-Toxic, King's Shield, Iron Head, Flash Cannon, Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, Swords Dance, and maybe Autotomize. While it is possible for an Aegislash to pull off mixed attacker or attacker/defender I've never seen one succeed with something like Shadow Ball/Sacred Sword/King's Shield/Toxic. It is strong but not indestructible, and I've never faced an Aegislash that completely ruined my play experience. Unlike Swagplay it doesn't take skill out of the equation, in fact it encourages skillful playing to counter and defeat it.

 

[Rajikaru]

...something like Shadow Ball/Sacred Sword/King's Shield/Toxic.

Who the hell would run a set like that? Trying to run Special Attack, Physical Attack, and stalling all on one pokemon?

 

[alexwolf]

Gonna respond to alexwolf's argument here real quick.

Teams that are weak to Aegi aren't seen in high-level play because they have to be scrapped. Building for WCOP, and what I know from people like Nog, Aegi-weak teams often just have to be scrapped start from square 1. This plethora of top-tier checks doesn't exist. Priority 1 is Aegi checks. I get to the end of a team, 'oh fuck this is Aegi weak', my team sucks. It puts constraints on teambuilding that many top players recognize, which you don't. Maybe because you run Heat Wave Torn-T and WoW Fire Blast Talonflame you have less issues, but this is silly and irrelevant. Also nobody uses SpD Venusaur. And is SpD Hippowdon not heavily crippled by a Toxic? Hippowdon already needs high health to avoid a 2HKO from Aegi, Toxic really makes it even easier to wear down than usual (Hippowdon is easily worn down). You underplayed that big time. SpD Amoonguss is an incredibly solid check, not denying that.

Every team weak to any top tier threat is bad, this says nothing. And i never said that Aegislash doesn't put strain into teambuilding, every top tier threat does. However, because it has a lot of checks, some of which can check most of Aegislash's sets, it's doesn't limit teambuilding that much to warrant a ban. Not to mention that unlike any broken Pokemon that was versatile, Aegislash's versatility just doesn't have the same consequences. There are many Pokemon that can scout for its set without huge losses, and even worst case scenario the price you pay is not too big. Hippowdon or Mandibuzz got Toxic'ed? Ok, now you need to rely more on your other Aegislash check, that now doesn't have to be afraid of Sacred Sword or a Steel move, such as Bisharp, Tyranitar, SpD Heatran, or Amoonguss. Yeah, getting Toxic'ed sucks, but Hippo is still able to check a lot of stuff if you don't play like shit, it's not in any way useless. The mixed set can do a lot of immediate damage to some of its checks, but once you figure out its set its just a slow wallbreaker with a lot of weaknesses that can be outsped and OHKOed by a lot of offensive Pokemon. It's way easier to check with offensive teams, and defensive teams can play around it because they carry multiple checks. Of course Aegi will sometimes manage to break through, that's its job, and it's a top tier threat so it should be logical for it to be able to do its job effectively right? And don't use the argument that the Pokemon that Aegislash will weaken will leave the opponent open to other threats. That's true for every single Pokemon that can run multiple effective sets with different checks and counters. You will just have to scout Aegi's set with the check that you need the less against the opponent's team, to minimize your loses. Also, a lot of Aegi's checks do a lot of other things, which is why i said that sometimes i end up with 2 Aegi checks without even thinking about Aegislash (SR Chomp because i want an SR setter and Bisharp because it's good on a lot of offensive teams and i want to trap Latios and Latias, for example).

The difference between Aegi and other offensive threats is that it is incredibly hard to revenge kill due to its enormous bulk. Things like Thundurus, Charizard X I can manage with something like a ScarfChomp, because they have much less bulk, more exploitable weaknesses, and less spammable attacks than Shadow Ball. Aegislash checks have to be able to take a hit because most cannot kill it in one hit and Shadow Ball has few resists/immunes. It's hard as hell to wear down, too, unlike some of these things ESPECIALLY Thundurus and doesn't have something like a SR weakness to exploit. The requirements in terms of amount and sturdiness of checks is different for Aegislash than any other top-tier threat.

And unlike most offensive Pokemon you mentioned, Aegislash is outsped by almost anything offensively based and even a lot of defensive stuff if running Lefties sets, so it's way easier to outspeed than those other Pokemon, especially Thundurus, which can even cripple faster Pokemon with T-Wave and have a 25% chance of getting the full para. Furthermore, because the Lefties sets (the ones that are hard to kill and wear down) don't have a lot of power, a lot of stuff are able to avoid the 2HKO from Aegi's moves, stuff that have tons of other uses other than checking Aegislash, such as SpD Heatran, SpD Mega Char X, SpD Hippo, Mandibuzz, and SpD Dragonite. Even offensive checks that can OHKO a completely healthy Aegislash exist, such as Life Orb Garchomp (mixed Chomp), Landorus, Life Orb Bisharp, Life Orb Excadrill, Life Orb Diggersby, Life Orb Mamoswine, and Mega Charizard Y. So even though Aegislash is harder to kill, it's also way easier to check than stuff such as Mega Char X and Thundurus, balancing it out.

Latios and Latias are far from my biggest concerns with stall. Chansey (if it's your sole switch-in you need max HP but that's a minor point, it's also basically mandatory on stall teams anyways) and Clefable are sturdy defensive answers. Also there are options like Mega Scizor (sans HP Fire). Latios is also only a concern in terms of putting pressure if it has Roost, as otherwise it can so easily be worn down. It's already been established that these Megas don't get /that/ much better and that they have reasonable defensive answers that are common on stall teams anyways, barring Taunt Mega Gardevoir which is an issue but not enough to worsen stall. The lack of need to account for Aegislash in its entirety and loss of enormous pressure it puts on so much of the team gives more room to account for threats and makes things like SpD Gliscor able to deal with Lando without being so worn down from handling Aegi. Overall despite the fact that certain offensive threats get better, I feel Aegi leaving removes a big pressure for stall that makes up for what gets better.

I am not talking about stall, why do you keep thinking that? I already explained that every single team utilizing defensive cores (even bulky offense carries those) will take a hit with Aegislash's absence. The only teams that will get better are offensive teams, you know the ones that have trouble taking hits from Aegislash and have a hard time OHKOing it. Everything else will get worse due the sheer amount of offensive Pokemon that will flourish with Aegislash's banning. And if you thought that dealing with Aegislash was hard for balanced and defensive teams, i just can't imagine how you think that those teams will get any better when Mega Medicham, Terrakion, Mega Heracross, and Mega Gardevoir will be everywhere.

Banning Aegislash just seems as an excuse for some people to make OU more offensive. If not, explain to me what defensive Pokemon will rise in usage to combat all those buffed offensive threats and keep the percentage of offense in the metagame the same, or less. Aegislash is mostly pushing offensive Pokemon out of OU, because effective defensive Pokemon can succeed in OU even with Aegi's existence, because Aegislash is very checkable. There are so many great defensive Pokemon that are Aegislash bait but manage to succeed in OU anyway, such as CM Clefable without a Fire move (loses to Iron Head sets), Skarmory, Chansey, and Slowbro.

I mean honestly, is there a single person here that doesn't believe that offense will get better after Aegislash's ban? And do you really want a more offensive metagame? I am not talking about broken stuff, the metagame could as well be more offensive without having any overpowered threat. Because to me, the metagame seems offensive enough, even too offensive.

The anti-ban side argues that Aegislash keeps powerful wall breakers in check, and that is absolutely true. If Aegislash is banned, the meta may become more offensive and less diverse. But as we know, sacrificing competitiveness for the sake of diversity is not a good thing. After all, rock-paper-scissors is a balanced game with diversity, but it is totally uncompetitive. Let's say Aegislash is rock. It checks certain Pokemon which we'll call the scissors category, and things which check Aegi are paper. As it is, the game is currently balanced and Aegislash does have its checks and counters. But Aegislash has multiple features which make OU less competitive and more like rock-paper-scissors which have been covered many times in this thread.

How are we sacrificing competitiveness? If you don't find Aegislash overpowered (too strong individually on any of offense, defense, or support) then you are not sacrificing anything, you just take decision based on what type of metagame you prefer. So, if you don't want the metagame to get more offensive, what's the problem with keeping around?

The rest of your post clearly shows that you think that the anti-ban side wants to keep Aegislash around so that we don't have to ban a lot of things, which is not the case. We don't want to ban Aegislash because we don't want a more offensive metagame.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

i think aegi is really broken. it has uber-level offenses AND defenses, people. its flash cannon hits as hard as dialga's, for instance, and that is coupled with the fact that its STAB shadow ball is only resisted by/doesn't affect 2 types, and that aegi has a 85 bp coverage move that hits both SE, i'm amazed that some people don't even think it's broken. then it also has a bulk roughly the same of the uber deoxys-d, with one of the best defensive types ever.

HOWEVER, i think it should NOT be banned. the reason? simple: it balances the metagame. if it did not exist, threats like mega gardevoir and mega medicham would have no reason not to spam their overpowered moves as soon as they come in, as they would go unpunished; threats like mega pinsir would have no reason to use earthquake, thus would go for more broken coverage moves like close combat, which can do ridiculous amounts of damage to rotom-w/skarm/balloon tran, and the same applies for mega ttar and terrakion, and mega heracross to an extent. that would mean we'd have to suspect them, and end up banning a lot more stuff, which i think should not happen. additionally, even though it's pretty broken, it has many common counters/checks in mandibuzz, heatran, gliscor, both zards, along with less common but also viable ones like chesnaught or diggersby.

i randomly read in a signature of someone that aegislash is the condom of the OU metagame, and i cant agree more.

WTF. You stated it's broken and can be compared to other ubers but it shouldn't be banned to balance the metagame....This does nothing but prove how messed up today's metagame is, right now ou has aegislash which ruined the metagame so badly that the only reason not to ban it is to keep the metagame in check from other uber strong pokemon in ou. Mega medicham for example has like 1 counter being slowbro so the second aegislash is banned Mega Medicham will wreck through every ou poke.

Also, most of the counters you listed can be beaten by aegislash. Mandibuzz gets wrecked by sub-toxic aegislash unless it has taunt which it can't fit in the moveset while gliscor can't take a special hit (especially if it has weakness policy) same goes for aegislash against mega zard x and mega zard y only wins since it's one of the trongest wallbreakers in ou.

Overall your comment did nothing but prove how much aegislash overcentralized the metagame to the point where it forced many pokes out or into ou because of 1 pokes and it needs to be in ou in order to stop other uber strong pokemon in ou.

 

[skies]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already, but I just noticed that Chesnaught is a pretty amazing Pokemon to wall/kill Aegislash.

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Earthquake
- Synthesis

Because of Chesnaught's Grass / Fighting typing, he already resists Ghost and Rock attacks. That soaks up both Shadow Sneak, Shadow Claw, Rock Slide, and Head Smash entirely. Shadow Ball? Nope. Bulletproof, that laughed upon ability, eradicates the move entirely. That cancels out six of Aegislash's few attacks. The only thing that can do much damage to Chesnaught is Iron Head. but even with 252 EVs in attack and a 2+ boost to attack, it's only 2HKO.

+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 201-237 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 102-120 (26.8 - 31.5%) -- 25.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 124-147 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 5.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 102-120 (26.8 - 31.5%) -- 25.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 150-177 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Note that all of these are 252+ 2+ Attack Aegislashes here. That's pretty sad. The only thing that really scared Chesnaught is a 252+ Special Attack + Flash Cannon, as it does get a sure 2HKO. But because full special sets are so rare, it's not really a problem.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 204-240 (53.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Full Special sets aren't exactly uncommon, they're just not extremely rare. And plus, these calcs are all wrong, what Aegislash that boosts (or runs Flash Cannon) without a Life Orb?

• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 261-308 (68.6 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 261-308 (68.6 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 133-156 (35 - 41%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 161-191 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 133-156 (35 - 41%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 195-230 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 263-309 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Here are the actual calcs of everything in your post. Plus, SubToxic Aegislash is quite popular and slams Chesnaught with Toxic anyways. And is thus immune to Leech Seed from Chesnaught.

---

Now for the killing the threat half of this post. Chesnaught has a pretty awesome 107 base attack stat, and access to Earthquake. Weakness Policy Aegislash tend to run with a Lonley nature, which is a 50/50 chance to be 1HKOed. Aside from that, Chesnaught will always land a 2HKO Earthquake on Aegislash.

4 Atk Chesnaught Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Blade: 166-196 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Chesnaught Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Aegislash-Blade: 294-348 (90.7 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Chesnaught seriously has 0 room for Earthquake, it needs Spikes and Leech Seed, with Spiky Shield as well. Then you pick from Hammer Arm or Seed Bomb, and not much else really. Maybe Toxic has a nice, just maybe. And the fact that it has to have a Defense lowering nature to have a chance to OHKO shows how pathetically weak non-STAB Earthquake truly is. And I'm fairly certain Weakness Policy Aegislash is just a shitty gimmick, at least it was the last time I checked, it might have changed since then, I don't really know. It seems like one, so I don't know how this proves anything, really.

---

Since King's Shield does exist on many Aegislash sets, Chesnaught has the simple LeechSynth combo on the set. He has access to Protect for either healing up some extra, or scouting out what moves Aegislash has.

---

This part proves that you probably don't have much experience with Chesnaught. Protect is a horrible move on Chesnaught, it literally has no advantages over Spiky Shield, something practically any Chesnaught user would know. I'm not saying you haven't, maybe you're just missing it, but Spiky Shield is infinitely better. And, as I seed, SubToxic Aegislash beats this set anyways.

I'm sorry if I didn't put enough detail and such, but I'm just trying to help prove that Aegislash does in fact have counters, even if they seem unlikely. I do feel like a ban for Aegislash in OU should happen, as the metagame is pretty centralized around him. He also is pretty hard to counter, especially to the many new players this generation on Showdown. He has a total of 720, which is pretty threatening on it's own. His sheer power of unpredictability also give him a HUGE advantage over his checks/counters/whatevers.

But that's thing, Aegislash's counters can all be played around, one way or the other. I get the point you're trying to make with Chesnaught, and I like Chesnaught (hell, my name was Chesnaught), but it is not a counter to Aegislash, but a check. It comes in on Shadow Ball, is immune, but usually gets worn down anyways.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Talonflame was just an example, like I said in the first post. Most teams run a ground/fire/dark/ghost attacker, or someone with those moves. Usually someone who can easily outspeed Aegislash. I also said you can predict around the shield with a roost on the first turn in some/most cases, because people will obviously go for the shield or risk losing their slash. I dislike repeating myself, just want to put that out there.

It doesn't just have one moveset. It runs both special and physical, and I've seen the thing run so many sets that I couldn't count them, much like Lucario, Tyranitar, Smeargle, and a whole bunch of other Pokemon. After the first turn (which usually won't kill you unless you have a type disadvantage) it's generally pretty easy to tell what their set up is. Mandibuzz also isn't the only pokemon who can run taunt. Like I mentioned before. Sableye. There's also greninja who can murder it in one shot regardless of it's king's shield on the first turn. There are not only two pokemon who can do that to it. Not even close.

There are a lot of pokemon I face 2000 times a day (exaggeration obviously), including many of the listed above. On a side note, I've never actually seen anyone run a bisharp because it's weak to nearly everything in OU right now. I have no idea why you brought that thing up. Sableye also doesn't die to two shadow balls. It has prankster, usually carries leftovers, recover, and will-o-wisp depending on the set. Definitely carries recover though. You can get a good 4 turns out of it at minimum.

Do you have any idea how many pokemon force you into a corner? Smeargle automatically renders one of your pokemon useless for the entire match with spore/dark void unless you can get a taunt off on it. You HAVE to sacrifice something. Then it proceeds to set up on you with either dances or entry hazards. You should apply that logic of your's to every other pokemon and not just this one, because there are many other, way more guilty pokemon for what you're saying.

Also. Weakness policy..
Dragon dance dragonite. Also guilty. It's also faster, and has a buttload of type coverage and versatile movesets.

That is all I can say.

I'll say many sets have counters like you listed but the fact that it has so many sets means that you can't put like 1 poke on a team and say you got aegislash countered, infact many people run at least 2 counters to aegislash since it is used so much and running lets say greninja a supposed counter as you said (deals a max of 75% so...not even close to a counter..)can defeat a set but easily is defeated by another aegislash set. Also lets say i force you into a counter with aegislash, you can go into zard y predicting the swords dance but if its a mixed aegi, zard can easily be defeated and you get away scotch free. Also i realize something like smeargle could force you into a corner but most of the time you know what your oponent will do unlike aegislash which could sub, swords dance, shadow ball, autotomize and if you predict wrong you could be ultimately screwed.
The thing most people said in the forums were things like aegislash shouldn't be banned because pokes like mega medicham would walk all over people clearly showing that aegislash made such a mess of the metagame that pokemon like starmie-that have been ou since gen 1 moved down along with many baws pokemon like lucario. And mega medicham which obviously should be ubers has been stuck out of ou in bl because of 1 pokemon.

 

[Tainic]

I'd assume it has to do with the move being based on a light energy attack, and not an actual ball of matter.

That's because Flash Cannon's JP name does not have Ball/Bomb in its name whearas stuff like Focus Blast does.

 

[LordGauss]

I've seen so many posts claiming Aegislash is overcentralizing, but none of them seem to give sufficient justification. Can someone give at least 5 offensive Pokemon that unjustifiably sacrifice coverage for Aegis or defensive Pokemon that must run suboptimal sets to deal with Aegis?

 

[LeoLancaster]

When I read "by forcing the inclusion of multiple checks (for offense) or making it more difficult for Stall to fit everything they need into a team." I always remember that was an argument when Keldeo was suspected in BW.
All big threats forcing to take multiple check, for example, you can't just run Mega-Venusaur to counter Keldeo, you can't just run Latias to check M-Charizard-Y,...
And I don't think Terrakion is a good example to show that Aegis forces to run sub-optimal coverage moves, because Terrakion has a pretty poor movepool (but really effective), what would you want to run over Earthquake?
Pinsir is a better choice but there is the problem of coverage on last move with a lot of other mons such as Garchomp, Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, M-Mawile, M-Scizor,... And all because of one mon.

The multiple checks argument isn't the best pro-ban argument (IMO), but it still holds weight. Generally you need multiple checks because checks get worn down or nailed by an unexpected coverage move (like HP Fire Latios hitting your Scizor), but Aegi is a worse offender because he has entire sets which change his checks/counters. Hippowdon/Mandibuzz/SDef Char X/CBBDnite etc lose to SubToxic, fast LO gets around Mandibuzz/Bisharp/SDef Gliscor etc, and SD beats SDef Hippo/CBBDnite/etc. You still don't need to really have more than two checks, but the usable two-'mon combinations are much smaller since there's more to deal with; thus you have to go for more than two checks more often than with other 'mons.

As for the coverage argument, it's always been that he forces too many Pokemon to run sub-optimal coverage, or he's forcing it just for him. Garchomp would like Fire Blast, of course, but for Skarm/Ferro/Scizor, not just a single 'mon. Mawile has to choose between running Iron Head for MVenu and Fairies, Fire Fang for Skarm/Ferro/Scizor, or Focus Punch for Skarm/Heatran/Ferro; again, all multiple targets. Scizor wants Knock Off for Aegi, primarily, so I'm not sure what you're saying here ?_?

Landorus and Thundurus (and Keldeo, Greninja, Manaphy) have to run coverage almost soley for MVenu, which is definitely the same as with Aegi; but this illustrates just how subjective this is. Aegi is, imo, causing too many Pokemon to run coverage just for him, and making said coverage too mandatory; MVenu is causing less 'mons to do so, and it isn't as mandatory (Thundurus is perfectly okay without coverage for MVenu, for example, but the 'mons running coverage for Aegi can't ever afford (slight exaggeration) to not run said coverage).

As I said before, it all depends on where you draw the line.

Edit:

I've seen so many posts claiming Aegislash is overcentralizing, but none of them seem to give sufficient justification. Can someone give at least 5 offensive Pokemon that unjustifiably sacrifice coverage for Aegis or defensive Pokemon that must run suboptimal sets to deal with Aegis?

Greninja runs Dark Pulse soley for Aegislash.
Pinsir runs EQ soley for Aegislash.
Terrakion runs EQ soley for Aegislash.
Heracross runs EQ soley for Aegishash.

That's 4, and there's a bunch of other Pokemon (Dnite, Medicham, Azumarill, MScizor, Tyranitar) which run coverage almost soley for Aegi, coverage which is still useful to varying degrees but they can't afford to run other coverage just because of one 'mon; that is to say, the other targets of the Aegi coverage aren't important enough to warrant running it in every case, but Aegi alone makes it mandatory.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Note: I do not run Aegislash on my current main team.

I'll keep this short like I usually do. Right now, Aegislash is the best all-around mon in the meta, no questions asked. I don't need to go in depth that it's versatile, bulky as hell, strong as fuck, and can literally fit onto any team and tailored to suit specific needs. Really, this suspect test is a question of whether your panties are rustled by a pokemon as metagame defining as Gen 2 Tyranitar. Every game with multiple characters has a "best" character. As long as said character doesn't take a complete dump on everything in the game with 10-0 matchups (Turbo Akuma lol) then you learn to either deal with it or play something else. In my opinion, if Aegislash is banned it's because people want one less thing to worry about when teambuilding. And they're trying to "easy-up the meta" so they can win more. Yeah sure, new gimmicks will be introduced in a Slash-less OU, but then everything will probably end up very similar to how it is now. Same 30 to 40 mons, Xzard & Thundurus not giving fucks, people swearing by god Megaman is a pivot, and everyone undervaluing Rotom-Wash.

That's my two cents. So TL:DR Version, if you don't like aegislash (the best not broken thing in OU) then vote to ban him. If you think Aegislash is cool, then vote to keep him around. We've all adapted to his presence and we'll all adapt to his absence if that comes to be.

 

[LordGauss]

The multiple checks argument isn't the best pro-ban argument (IMO), but it still holds weight. Generally you need multiple checks because checks get worn down or nailed by an unexpected coverage move (like HP Fire Latios hitting your Scizor), but Aegi is a worse offender because he has entire sets which change his checks/counters. Hippowdon/Mandibuzz/SDef Char X/CBBDnite etc lose to SubToxic, fast LO gets around Mandibuzz/Bisharp/SDef Gliscor etc, and SD beats SDef Hippo/CBBDnite/etc. You still don't need to really have more than two checks, but the usable two-'mon combinations are much smaller since there's more to deal with; thus you have to go for more than two checks more often than with other 'mons.

As for the coverage argument, it's always been that he forces too many Pokemon to run sub-optimal coverage, or he's forcing it just for him. Garchomp would like Fire Blast, of course, but for Skarm/Ferro/Scizor, not just a single 'mon. Mawile has to choose between running Iron Head for MVenu and Fairies, Fire Fang for Skarm/Ferro/Scizor, or Focus Punch for Skarm/Heatran/Ferro; again, all multiple targets. Scizor wants Knock Off for Aegi, primarily, so I'm not sure what you're saying here ?_?

Landorus and Thundurus (and Keldeo, Greninja, Manaphy) have to run coverage almost soley for MVenu, which is definitely the same as with Aegi; but this illustrates just how subjective this is. Aegi is, imo, causing too many Pokemon to run coverage just for him, and making said coverage too mandatory; MVenu is causing less 'mons to do so, and it isn't as mandatory (Thundurus is perfectly okay without coverage for MVenu, for example, but the 'mons running coverage for Aegi can't ever afford (slight exaggeration) to not run said coverage).

As I said before, it all depends on where you draw the line.

Edit:


Greninja runs Dark Pulse soley for Aegislash.
Pinsir runs EQ soley for Aegislash.
Terrakion runs EQ soley for Aegislash.
Heracross runs EQ soley for Aegishash.

That's 4, and there's a bunch of other Pokemon (Dnite, Medicham, Azumarill, MScizor, Tyranitar) which run coverage almost soley for Aegi, coverage which is still useful to varying degrees but they can't afford to run other coverage just because of one 'mon; that is to say, the other targets of the Aegi coverage aren't important enough to warrant running it in every case, but Aegi alone makes it mandatory.

1. Greninja's Hydro pump. 2hkos Aegislash just like Dark pulse, which isn't run for this reason.

Edit: Woops, I got misinformation from the Greninja thread that Hydro Pump 2hkos Aegislash and have no access to calculators currently to confirm. Dark Pulse is still a nice spam move but I guess Greninja doesn't need it if not for Aegis.

2. Pinsir has to choose between hitting Aegislash with Earthquake or hitting Skarm and Rotom-w with CC. It's a matter of picking your poison, which applies to a lot of sweepers.

3. Terrakion is in a similar situation as Pinsir. It already had good coverage and was known for having a free move for hitting a threat.
If Steel/Ghost cockblocks Pinsir and Terrakion's preferred coverage, it's obviously not Aegislash's fault and using it as reasons for overcentralization is an unhealthy precedent.

4. Okay this one is legitimate, but Heracross having one popular counter is nothing wrong, especially when birdspam is more threatening to MegaHera's viability.

In summary, you aren't forced to run coverage for Aegislash; people choose to because it is popular. Right now overcentralization arguments sound like excuses to avoid having to choose counters to sweepers, a reasoning that could apply Skarmory for example.

Also, I am leaning towards an Aegislash ban, but having it banned for the wrong reasons could set unhealthy precedents for later suspects.

 

[Mood4food77]

HP fire doesn't 2HKO aegislash (which is stronger than Hydro Pump)

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 151-182 (46.6 - 56.1%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

it's not going to 2HKO when you consider king's shield, he runs dark pulse to reliably 2HKO aegis

 

[Halcyon.]

p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }
I tend to think, and many may agree, that we have exhausted arguments between the pro-ban and not-ban camps. Neither of us is going to budge, and to be honest, neither of us necessarily should. There have been many less direct contributors to this discussion that have shed some much needed light on our situation. What we really know for certain: Aegislash is completely different than any suspect we have had before. Aegislash has a drastic effect on the meta-game, such that to take him out may make it worse, or better. Better are worse are subjective properties here. Better are worse depends on how each individual community member imagines their perfect meta. Individually, we are prepared to ban from or leave Aegislash in the meta, but as a community we are not prepared to do either. For this reason, there is no satisfactory solution to the Aegislash suspect test that is readily available to us. I say available because I do not think banning or leaving Aegislash in the metagame will satisfy the community as a whole. Neither do I think this is a bad thing. I say available because I think there is a third option of compromise. My suggestion, and perhaps a solution to our many newly discovered problems, is to introduce a new ladder, “The OU suspension Ladder”.

An OU suspension ladder would be a ladder dedicated to borderline cases. Pokemon or tactics that may fall between Uber and OU, or pokemon whose removal is either not completely justified or whose removal will drastically change the meta in an unforeseeable way. How it would work in practice, I am not completely certain of, but the advantages seem obvious. First, it will allow us to give an extensive testing of suspended OU pokemon and create a duality of meta for comparison. We will be able to have a more direct comparison of “The Suspended OU ladder” containing an unadjusted metagame and “The Regular OU ladder” containing all our modifications. Further, this comparison can be extended indefinitely giving us all the time we need to allow both metas to develop. This would allow us to monitor what threats fill the power vacuum left by the suspended pokemon. Also, it would allow us to to excavate pokemon that fill the power vacuum into the suspended ladder giving us a real opportunity to test the hypothesis of a preferable meta hiding under it all. With the suspension ladder, this can be done with minimal damage to the original metagame because the suspension ladder will have an unhindered ongoing developing meta with the suspended pokemon included. Further, it would allow us to monitor power creep in future games. For instance, Aegislash could be put on an indefinite suspension such that we can get a clear concept of its effect on the meta and the consequences of the power lacuna it leaves behind. If it turns out that the meta changes in such a way that it is definitive that reintroducing Aegislash into the regular ladder would bring a desirable metagame, then it can be unsuspended. If the metgame changes in such a way that Aegislash becomes more powerful then Aegislash can be moved to Uber. This would allow us a new tool in the construction of a meta. Instead of simply removing things from OU, things can be reintroduced too. Further, we will have no need for this endless back and forth between two camps, because there will be a mutual understanding that this is for research into finding and continuing to build the most desirable metagame.

*waits for applause*

What are you talking about? The whole point of a suspect test is to determine how the community feels by letting the community vote. If Aegi gets a 60% or more ban rate, then it will and should be banned. The same goes for if it gets under 60%.

 

[Emmy2]

I personally think the argument that Aegislash is extremely versatile which makes it nearly impossible to check is flawed because while it does have multiple 'good' sets it can run they all run practically the same thing.

When I think of a versatile pokemon that is hard to predict I think of mons like Amoonguss. If I hit an Amoonguss with shadow sneak from Aegislash and it uses giga drain on me and I can tell that it is physically defensive from how much damage it did I still don't know its moveset. Even with that information I only have a small idea at what it may be potentially running, it could have synthesis, spore, stun spore, clear smog, leech seed, any number of hidden powers, sludge bomb, etc. Even with that information I don't know what is filling up any of the moveslots it hasn't yet revealed. But I find that whenever Aegislash attacks I can practically read off every move it is carrying without it even revealing them because while Aegislash can run a few different practical sets everyone of those sets is ridiculously predictable. Aegislash has a well known set of moves that every common set runs and the few oddball moves tend to be far too niche to be ran effectively.

When I think of broken mixed attackers from recent memory I immediately jump to Mega Lucario. Which the main argument for its ban was that it can effectively run both physical and special sets to a ridiculous level, and it is near impossible to know which set it is running without sacrificing a pokemon in the process. The difference I find is that Aegislash can only set up on the physical side (which tends to be underwhelming in my opinion), as well as at least when I battle Aegislash I don't find that I ever have to quote on quote sack a pokemon to figure out what it is running to counter it. While each of its set is powerful in its own way I never thought that Aegislash was a guaranteed kill for the trainer using it or that it was necessary to death fodder something to be able to defeat it.

The other common argument that is brought up is how it overcentralizes the metagame to a laughable extent as well as many pokemon that people think should be viable in OU can't be because of this one single mon. The issue I have here is I think in the centralization of the OU metagame Aegislash is definitely towards the top no doubt (As any good pokemon should), but I think some pokemon overcentralize it much more but don't even get mentioned. And I think this is partially because people get annoyed by King's shield shenanigans and that annoyed crowd of people tend to talk much louder. In regards to the pokemon that people are saying can't be viable because of Aegislash I honestly think that is misplacing the blame. I think many pokemon that are good, heck many pokemon that are great or were great in previous generations became much more lackluster with the insane amount of influence priority has had in the metagame in recent years. Pokemon such as Volcarona, Alakazam (mega or not), Starmie, and Medicham (mega or not) would typically shine but their lack of strong priority and their general vulnerability to it from both their typing and defenses makes them difficult to utilize well...at least in OU. I don't think it is particularly fair to single out Aegislash when it is just one pokemon in the influx of strong priority...whether it is Conkeldurr, Bisharp, Aegislash, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, or whatever. OU is ruled now more than ever by strong priority, the problem isn't that Aegislash is keeping these pokemon from contending in OU it is that these pokemon were unable to keep up with the ever changing metagame.

When I look at Aegislash in comparison to other OU threats I don't see it as Overpowered. Powerful yes. Hard to predict yes. Potential sweeper material most definitely. But so is every strong attacking OU threat.

NO BAN

Seriously though, what in the actual hell are you trying to say here?

Quoted from your post:

while Aegislash can run a few different practical sets everyone of those sets is ridiculously predictable.

and:

When I look at Aegislash in comparison to other OU threats I don't see it as Overpowered. Powerful yes. Hard to predict yes. Potential sweeper material most definitely. But so is every strong attacking OU threat.

So basically you contradicted yourself there. Please, play someone who knows what they're doing before making an argument like this.

Also, Amoonguss isn't versatile at all. He basically has 5 moves: Spore, Giga Drain, Clear Smog, Foul Play, Hidden Power. I've never seen one do anything else besides these moves. Maybe Sludge Bomb or Stun Spore, that's about it... He doesn't get seeds, Synthesis is literal ass on him, and he doesn't even have many options if I were making a joke team and want to run something weird/stupid just for lols.

If an Aegislash used Shadow Ball, please tell me what his other 3 moves are? Kings Shield is common, I'll give you that. But niche moves like hidden powers, Flash Cannon, Toxic, Iron Head ARE actually effective on Aegislash because Shadow Ball and Kings Shield is pretty much what he's known for, which will in turn make him less predictable.

 

[Red Cat]

What are you talking about? The whole point of a suspect test is to determine how the community feels by letting the community vote. If Aegi gets a 60% or more ban rate, then it will and should be banned. The same goes for if it gets under 60%.

The only issue is if between 50 and 60 percent of the voters want Aegislash banned. Then we will have a "majority" of the community unhappy with the result (noting that the voters are not always representative of the community as a whole). But other than that, the process is pretty good. For some reason, some people equate suspecting something to banning something and whine about the decision to have a suspect test instead of getting reqs and persuading others to vote their way. At least the community has a say in Aegislash this generation unlike last gen when we never got the opportunity to vote on weather.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }
I tend to think, and many may agree, that we have exhausted arguments between the pro-ban and not-ban camps. Neither of us is going to budge, and to be honest, neither of us necessarily should. There have been many less direct contributors to this discussion that have shed some much needed light on our situation. What we really know for certain: Aegislash is completely different than any suspect we have had before. Aegislash has a drastic effect on the meta-game, such that to take him out may make it worse, or better. Better are worse are subjective properties here. Better are worse depends on how each individual community member imagines their perfect meta. Individually, we are prepared to ban from or leave Aegislash in the meta, but as a community we are not prepared to do either. For this reason, there is no satisfactory solution to the Aegislash suspect test that is readily available to us. I say available because I do not think banning or leaving Aegislash in the metagame will satisfy the community as a whole. Neither do I think this is a bad thing. I say available because I think there is a third option of compromise. My suggestion, and perhaps a solution to our many newly discovered problems, is to introduce a new ladder, “The OU suspension Ladder”.

An OU suspension ladder would be a ladder dedicated to borderline cases. Pokemon or tactics that may fall between Uber and OU, or pokemon whose removal is either not completely justified or whose removal will drastically change the meta in an unforeseeable way. How it would work in practice, I am not completely certain of, but the advantages seem obvious. First, it will allow us to give an extensive testing of suspended OU pokemon and create a duality of meta for comparison. We will be able to have a more direct comparison of “The Suspended OU ladder” containing an unadjusted metagame and “The Regular OU ladder” containing all our modifications. Further, this comparison can be extended indefinitely giving us all the time we need to allow both metas to develop. This would allow us to monitor what threats fill the power vacuum left by the suspended pokemon. Also, it would allow us to to excavate pokemon that fill the power vacuum into the suspended ladder giving us a real opportunity to test the hypothesis of a preferable meta hiding under it all. With the suspension ladder, this can be done with minimal damage to the original metagame because the suspension ladder will have an unhindered ongoing developing meta with the suspended pokemon included. Further, it would allow us to monitor power creep in future games. For instance, Aegislash could be put on an indefinite suspension such that we can get a clear concept of its effect on the meta and the consequences of the power lacuna it leaves behind. If it turns out that the meta changes in such a way that it is definitive that reintroducing Aegislash into the regular ladder would bring a desirable metagame, then it can be unsuspended. If the metgame changes in such a way that Aegislash becomes more powerful then Aegislash can be moved to Uber. This would allow us a new tool in the construction of a meta. Instead of simply removing things from OU, things can be reintroduced too. Further, we will have no need for this endless back and forth between two camps, because there will be a mutual understanding that this is for research into finding and continuing to build the most desirable metagame.

*waits for applause*

I can't speak for anyone but myself, so I don't know if what I'll say is correct, but from what I've read in the past I think community leaders would be against an idea like what you've suggested. For one thing I kind of doubt that having a separate meta would make peoples minds up one way or the other. People will just stick with what they already wanted... setting up a separate meta would only serve to divide the community. Everyone pro-ban will frequent the suspension ladder and everyone anti-ban will stick to OU. Maybe some people will change there minds but it'll be more or less even because the game will strike a stabalized balance in both metas. All that will happen is you'll end up with two player groups that preffer one meta and will refuse to let the other metas ruling take back over their own. We'll just have two OUs. No one wants to have to look at recommended spreads for two different OUs... and over time the two meta games will butterfly effect further and further form each other. Especially since the Ageislash-less one will be made up of a player base more "willing" to ban. I don't think it would help construct anything... just divide everyone. From what I've seen and read Smogon likes to avoid complex set ups that make things confusing or that lead to slippery slopes. And dividing the player base into two separate metas is definitely both those things. Who's to say that the we don't end up with 4 different OUs each with random combinations of various S-rank mon bans?

The game is balanced enough in it's current state that people have fun with it. And regardless of what you want to happen and what ends up happening to Aegislash the game will still be/ will balance out enough that everyone playing now will suck it up and learn to have fun with what they've got.

 

[ChrisXBlade]

Personally, I do not think Aegislash is broken at all. Yes, it is strong, but most of the arguments I see here for its ban are simply saying, "With Aegislash banned 'X' will become more viable." Some of the viable are completely wrong too. It doesn't matter what is going to be viable, what matters is if this mon is broken. To me, it isn't at all. Sure, there aren't straight up counter to this mon, but they're several checks. To me I think two good counters to this pokemon are Mandibuzz and Mega Venu.
4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 506-596 (156.1 - 183.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 65-77 (15.3 - 18.1%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 129-152 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think that's pretty viable mon that is a counter to this brutal pokemon.

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 238-282 (73.4 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 67-81 (18.4 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

While this mon is less viable he is still a counter

I've also seen people try to argue with aegislash around rapid spin isn't viable. Again, we are looking to see if he is broken. Not what will be viable with it gone. With defog around rapid spin really as useful as it was. Sure it is when you wanna set up too, but any ghost is gonna spin block. King shield doesn't have a negative affect on the meta. To me it's the exact opposite. It makes you think, and it can really help out with strategies too! You can't say that move is broken at all. To conclude, while Aegislash is basically the new Rotom Wash in a sense he's on every team, has a great type, very versatile, and very annoying it doesn't call for a ban.

 

[Jin White]

Instead of bitching about a hypothetical metagame without aegislash why don't people get on the suspect ladder and actually experience a metagame without aegislash. I swear there are about 10 people on the suspect ladder & we fight each other over and over again.

 

[LordGauss]

Personally, I do not think Aegislash is broken at all. Yes, it is strong, but most of the arguments I see here for its ban are simply saying, "With Aegislash banned 'X' will become more viable." Some of the viable are completely wrong too. It doesn't matter what is going to be viable, what matters is if this mon is broken. To me, it isn't at all. Sure, there aren't straight up counter to this mon, but they're several checks. To me I think two good counters to this pokemon are Mandibuzz and Mega Venu.
4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 506-596 (156.1 - 183.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 65-77 (15.3 - 18.1%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 129-152 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think that's pretty viable mon that is a counter to this brutal pokemon.

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 238-282 (73.4 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 67-81 (18.4 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

While this mon is less viable he is still a counter

I've also seen people try to argue with aegislash around rapid spin isn't viable. Again, we are looking to see if he is broken. Not what will be viable with it gone. With defog around rapid spin really as useful as it was. Sure it is when you wanna set up too, but any ghost is gonna spin block. King shield doesn't have a negative affect on the meta. To me it's the exact opposite. It makes you think, and it can really help out with strategies too! You can't say that move is broken at all. To conclude, while Aegislash is basically the new Rotom Wash in a sense he's on every team, has a great type, very versatile, and very annoying it doesn't call for a ban.

Your Venusaur calc uses Shield form to get that 5hko...

 

[horyzhnz]

One of the main arguments for banning of Aegislash is that more and more Pokemon will be viable, and teambuilding will have a much greater degree of freedom.

it doesn't matter what is going to be viable, what matters is if this mon is broken

Deoxy-D's suspect testing was done on the grounds of overcentralizing the metagame around hyper-offense, which is literally the same thing Aegislash is being banned for; overcentralizing the metagame to find ways to defeat this sentient piece of medieval weaponry. So many Pokemon like Dragonite, Mega Pinsir, Tyranitar, and Terrakion are basically forced to run Earthquake due to the mere existence of Aegislash and its signature move King's Shield, when they could be running much more useful moves and 'spicing' up the metagame. Aegislash's presence forces almost every offensive Pokemon to run obscure coverage moves JUST to hit Aegislash, and this makes for an extremely stale metagame.

The fact there are no true counters to Aegislash was part of the reason I was leaning towards the ban side of the argument. The mere fact that it counters and even makes so many Pokemon unviable like Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Terrakion without having any real counters is actually quite frightening. Every single 'check' can be shredded to pieces if the player switches it into a different Aegislash set, leaving it down to pure luck on whether your opponent has brought the right Aegislash set. Diggersby and Terrakion get destroyed by the Air Balloon variants. SpD Hippowdon and Mandibuzz are dealt with by the SubToxic set. Bisharp gets annihilated if the player predicts incorrectly and switches into a Sacred Sword, and even if it gets in, the fast Life Orb set just outspeeds and snuffs it out anyway. I mean, sure its movepool isn't that good, but it literally has all the tools it needs to dismantle almost any Pokemon. I've switched Mandibuzz into Aegislash many times, forcing it out only to shit all over my team once something else kills my Mandibuzz, but on the few occasions I've been hit with a Head Smash, I die a little inside, knowing that this player only used it 'just to fuck mandibuzz lol'. There is literally no way to safely switch ANYTHING into Aegislash safely without scouting out its set first, and by that time half your team might already be dead.

Honestly, despite all this, I don't believe Aegislash is that banworthy by virtue of its movepool and versatility alone. If you do bring the right check, Aegislash is actually not that hard to deal with. SpD Hippowdon handles the standard special attacking set nicely, Mandibuzz walls most offensive sets without Head Smash, LO / Band Diggersby pops non-Air Balloon variants, Bisharp takes care of any non-Speed / Sacred Sword sets, etc, you get the gist. However, I do believe that Aegislash has an unhealthy effect on the OU metagame, turning predictions against Aegislash into basically coin tosses where skill is completely absent; like many posters before me have said. That said, I also believe that if Aegislash is banned, its banishment to Ubers would definitely breathe some new life into the metagame by breaking the chains that clamped on so tightly to moveslots, just for a coverage move which can deal decent damage to Aegislash before the said Pokemon goes down. Never before have I seen the sentences 'However, this set is still walled by X', 'without this move, it will get walled by X', or 'run -coverage move- to hit X' floating around as much as I have in regards to Aegislash. Personally, I don't think Aegislash is THAT banworthy, but I'd actually like to see it banned, just for the sake of making more Pokemon viable in OU (and by extension making it less stale and more fun / creative) and teambuilding less restrictive. Just my two cents,,,