Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

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On the topic of Blaziken, I might not be the most updated person on ladder trends, but even assuming that 'most blaze run hjk', it doesn't mean that is what they should be using, anyway. Low Kick's reliability should not be compromised just so you can hit a rather lackluster Pokemon in Diancie (at least not until the Mega is released, at any rate).
 
Gastrodon walls most mm2xes and mm2y has 28% chance to beat it one on one. It's also a good switch in to weaker groudons. I think it should be ranked C+/B- as viable hard kyogre counters are rare nowadays...
 

Inspirited

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It hits Diancie/Quagsire/Now Gastrodon (and Manaphy :]) as well as being better at ghetto stomping hippodown
I have seen Quagsire run Protect instead of one of its STAB moves just to avoid the High Jump Kick 2HKO and to troll Mega Blaziken in general (Quaggy still soft checks Blaze). malefic also uses Protect on his Diancie. Although I don't know why this is, I am sure he has his reasons.

Hippowdon is a case of "It's not worth it" in my opinion, since +2 High Jump Kick only has a 5/16 chance to OHKO Hippo after Stealth Rock, not including HJK's accuracy. On the flip side, Hippo has a meaty 5/8 chance to OHKO Blaze from full and will have a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock or any prior damage Blaze has taken from setting up, or In Flare Blitz recoil. The match up is still in Hippo's favor no matter what move you choose and considering 2 of Mega Blaziken's common checks are Ghost-types (Ghost Arceus and Giratina-O), High Jump Kick just isn't worth running. What makes this worse is that it allows Gengar and Aegislash to cause a 50:50 should they be on your opponents team. Aegislash can force even more mind games with Blaziken with Kings Shield assuming it comes in on HJK. Other common checks are birds that do not care at all which Fighting-type STAB you run, Landorus-T who doesn't care which Kick you run, Gyarados who beats you anyways and a few other obscure checks. All in all, you are putting Blaze at greater risk versus Ghost-types, Protect users, and HJK,'s own accuracy flaw just for a 5/16 chance to OHKO Hippo after Stealth Rock (not including accuracy), a 49/50 chance to OHKO Gastrodon (including accuracy).

TL;DR: High Jump Kick is not worth running over Low Kick imo.
 

haxiom

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I have seen Quagsire run Protect instead of one of its STAB moves just to avoid the High Jump Kick 2HKO and to troll Mega Blaziken in general (Quaggy still soft checks Blaze). malefic also uses Protect on his Diancie. Although I don't know why this is, I am sure he has his reasons.

Hippowdon is a case of "It's not worth it" in my opinion, since +2 High Jump Kick only has a 5/16 chance to OHKO Hippo after Stealth Rock, not including HJK's accuracy. On the flip side, Hippo has a meaty 5/8 chance to OHKO Blaze from full and will have a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock or any prior damage Blaze has taken from setting up, or In Flare Blitz recoil. The match up is still in Hippo's favor no matter what move you choose and considering 2 of Mega Blaziken's common checks are Ghost-types (Ghost Arceus and Giratina-O), High Jump Kick just isn't worth running. What makes this worse is that it allows Gengar and Aegislash to cause a 50:50 should they be on your opponents team. Aegislash can force even more mind games with Blaziken with Kings Shield assuming it comes in on HJK. Other common checks are birds that do not care at all which Fighting-type STAB you run, Landorus-T who doesn't care which Kick you run, Gyarados who beats you anyways and a few other obscure checks. All in all, you are putting Blaze at greater risk versus Ghost-types, Protect users, and HJK,'s own accuracy flaw just for a 5/16 chance to OHKO Hippo after Stealth Rock (not including accuracy), a 49/50 chance to OHKO Gastrodon (including accuracy).

TL;DR: High Jump Kick is not worth running over Low Kick imo.
I agree with WreckDra on this one. Those points are definitely valid, and I definitely know that Quagsire will run Protect, if not solely to buy time for lefties as a lot of moves tend to be very close 2HKOs (such as Zekrom's Outrage) as well as stall out toxic turns.

Also, another thing to note is that accuracy does play a pretty big part in this. You theoretically are going to hit nine HJK out of ten. The thing to consider is, out of every ten times I use Low Kick with Blaziken, will I run into a Diancie/Quagsire/Gastrodon/Manaphy? Probably not, unless say you know for certain that your opponent is testing Diancie or something. So basically, the odds of missing > the odds of a scenario in which HJK is better occurring. I could go to usage statistics, etc. but I don't really need to because seriously, how often do you see Manaphy in Ubers? Not that often (and no one tell me that they have a team with it, it's pretty uncommon overall).
 
aegislash should drop to B- or even C+.

this thing needs to rely on gyro ball to break through xerneas, one pokemon it's supposed to counter... until you realize gyro ball fails to OHKO +2 xerneas even after stealth rock damage, before aegislash gets OHKOed back by HP Fire / Thunder. same with mega gengar, it dies to Shadow Ball as it exposes its blade forme or gets perish trapped. mega mewtwo Y ohkoes its blade forme with Fire Blast and usually avoids the 2hko from gyro ball. aegislash is not a reliable counter to the biggest ubers threats at all. then you add the fact that its slow as shit, weak, not that bulky on the physical side and has severe 4mss, and you get a pokemon which in my eyes just does not fit B rank.
 
aegislash should drop to B- or even C+.

this thing needs to rely on gyro ball to break through xerneas, one pokemon it's supposed to counter... until you realize gyro ball fails to OHKO +2 xerneas even after stealth rock damage, before aegislash gets OHKOed back by HP Fire / Thunder. same with mega gengar, it dies to Shadow Ball as it exposes its blade forme or gets perish trapped. mega mewtwo Y ohkoes its blade forme with Fire Blast and usually avoids the 2hko from gyro ball. aegislash is not a reliable counter to the biggest ubers threats at all. then you add the fact that its slow as shit, weak, not that bulky on the physical side and has severe 4mss, and you get a pokemon which in my eyes just does not fit B rank.
I mean I am for the drop but the arguements are severely flawed, Aegislash takes 57.4 % max from a +2 Xerneas meaning it's not OHKOd, and not even 2HKOd if you go for an in between KS to accumulate leftovers recovery. All your statements somehow contain a blade forme aegislash as the hit taker, which is plain unrealistic.

Anyway Aegislash seems like a niche mon in similar terms to Gastrodon so I'd put them in the same rank
 
aegislash should drop to B- or even C+.

this thing needs to rely on gyro ball to break through xerneas, one pokemon it's supposed to counter... until you realize gyro ball fails to OHKO +2 xerneas even after stealth rock damage, before aegislash gets OHKOed back by HP Fire / Thunder. same with mega gengar, it dies to Shadow Ball as it exposes its blade forme or gets perish trapped. mega mewtwo Y ohkoes its blade forme with Fire Blast and usually avoids the 2hko from gyro ball. aegislash is not a reliable counter to the biggest ubers threats at all. then you add the fact that its slow as shit, weak, not that bulky on the physical side and has severe 4mss, and you get a pokemon which in my eyes just does not fit B rank.
????
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (132 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 422-498 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO, there. Even if it runs more spdef, you can always live an hp fire/thunder. Xern will hit it first. You ks. Then profit??
Megagar shadow ball will always KO, also in shield: 252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Blade: 348-410 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Perishtrap is like, a low ladder gimmick. Also it can never get trapped as aegis is a ghost? Its not supposed to check mm2 outside of rain, it can punish the switch-in with toxic.

Oh Hack ninja'd me, nb.
 

PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
S Rank
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer.

excuse me if i'm wrong, but I'm seeing a slight double standard here. Arceus-Normal was rejected from S-Rank because all it really does is set up and sweep, and sometimes revenge kill (although it does it damn well). Hack He Must made a very very strong argument that this should not deter it from being S-Rank due to its one set being the best in the entire game.

However, Mega Gengar could be said to fulfill the same kind of role. Mega Gengar is used to trap defensive threats so that ABC can sweep, e.g. remove Kia so Kyogre can rampage, remove Sylveon so Yveltal can rampage etc etc. Defensive teams don't use Gengar to remove Extremekiller so that Lugia/Quagsire/Wisp Arceus/whatever has an easier time, stall teams don't use Gengar to Destiny Bond away CM Refresh Arceus, etc etc, Gengar doesn't sweep, it traps something and gets rid of it, then (I tend to see this against balanced teams the most) sometimes gets a second kill with Destiny Bond if it didn't have to sacrifice itself vs opponent no. 1. Mega Gengar only really traps (i'm not downplaying it at all, it's damn good at what it does), but why exactly did you reject Arceus-Normal for S-Rank due to its lack of versatility when Gengar is there for its lack of versatility (not counting moves of course, e.g. Gengar runs HP Fire for Scizor, cause Ekiller can do the same to break any one of its checks and counters, e.g. LO Stone Edge for defensive Yveltal, even Giga Drain (!!!!) for Quagsire).

If someone can explain to me why this double standard is justified it'd be great, Arceus-Normal has gotten a lot lot better this generation as a huge portion of its checks are now complete garbage (e.g. Skarmory, Giratina) and the fact that it has several new offensive partners to play with in Xerneas and Blaziken. I'm not saying Arceus-Normal should be S per se, but there needs to be a better reason why it isn't S.
 
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Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
S Rank
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer.

excuse me if i'm wrong, but I'm seeing a slight double standard here. Arceus-Normal was rejected from S-Rank because all it really does is set up and sweep, and sometimes revenge kill (although it does it damn well). Hack He Must made a very very strong argument that this should not deter it from being S-Rank due to its one set being the best in the entire game.

However, Mega Gengar could be said to fulfill the same kind of role. Mega Gengar is used to trap defensive threats so that ABC can sweep, e.g. remove Kia so Kyogre can rampage, remove Sylveon so Yveltal can rampage etc etc. Defensive teams don't use Gengar to remove Extremekiller so that Lugia/Quagsire/Wisp Arceus/whatever has an easier time, stall teams don't use Gengar to Destiny Bond away CM Refresh Arceus, etc etc, Gengar doesn't sweep, it traps something and gets rid of it, then (I tend to see this against balanced teams the most) sometimes gets a second kill with Destiny Bond if it didn't have to sacrifice itself vs opponent no. 1. Mega Gengar only really traps (i'm not downplaying it at all, it's damn good at what it does), but why exactly did you reject Arceus-Normal for S-Rank due to its lack of versatility when Gengar is there for its lack of versatility (not counting moves of course, e.g. Gengar runs HP Fire for Scizor, cause Ekiller can do the same to break any one of its checks and counters, e.g. LO Stone Edge for defensive Yveltal, even Giga Drain (!!!!) for Quagsire).

If someone can explain to me why this double standard is justified it'd be great, Arceus-Normal has gotten a lot lot better this generation as a huge portion of its checks are now complete garbage (e.g. Skarmory, Giratina) and the fact that it has several new offensive partners to play with in Xerneas and Blaziken. I'm not saying Arceus-Normal should be S per se, but there needs to be a better reason why it isn't S.
I feel the only couple things keeping Normal Arceus out of S are opportunity cost, the Defog buff, and the rise of status now that it almost needs a Life Orb to function correctly on Hyper Offense. There is new opportunity for it in Support Arceus formes with Defog providing crucial synergy and support for most teams. Wallceus can provide the support sure, but its defensive synergy is relatively bad and its typing leaves it with very little defensive niches when compared to other support Arceus formes like Grass, Water, Ghost, Rock and Fairy. The bottom line is, when using Arceus-Normal, you cannot use another Arceus forme which constricts it to Hyper Offense builds usually although there are a few successful defensive builds that use Wallceus (and I mean very few). The Defog buff constricts Extreme-killer sets even further by almost forcing them to be run on Hyper Offense builds that can keep up enough pressure to prevent Defog / Rapid Spin from ruining Arceus-Normal's hazard support that it so greatly appreciates to help it weaken other Arceus-formes, Groudon, Scizor (if not running a fire move) ect. with Extreme Speed not being a very strong STAB and Base 120 Atk not being the best by Uber standards. Life Orb is still the Item of choice on Extreme-Killer since it is almost forced to run a Jolly nature now. This makes it much more venerable to Burns and Toxic. This sucks when considering the generation shift made Toxic one of the best moves in Ubers and Will-O-Wisp usage has risen considerably due to the rise of improved support Arceus formes and just how dangerous some physical attackers like Zekrom are this gen.

This is just my own opinion though; I could be flawed in multiple places here but this makes sense to me.

TL:DR: Although Arceus-Normal itself got better this gen, it is not S-Rank because of a worsening case of opportunity cost, the Defog buff in general, and the significant rise in usage of Will-O-Wisp and Toxic.
 

haxiom

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S Rank
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer.

excuse me if i'm wrong, but I'm seeing a slight double standard here. Arceus-Normal was rejected from S-Rank because all it really does is set up and sweep, and sometimes revenge kill (although it does it damn well). Hack He Must made a very very strong argument that this should not deter it from being S-Rank due to its one set being the best in the entire game.

However, Mega Gengar could be said to fulfill the same kind of role. Mega Gengar is used to trap defensive threats so that ABC can sweep, e.g. remove Kia so Kyogre can rampage, remove Sylveon so Yveltal can rampage etc etc. Defensive teams don't use Gengar to remove Extremekiller so that Lugia/Quagsire/Wisp Arceus/whatever has an easier time, stall teams don't use Gengar to Destiny Bond away CM Refresh Arceus, etc etc, Gengar doesn't sweep, it traps something and gets rid of it, then (I tend to see this against balanced teams the most) sometimes gets a second kill with Destiny Bond if it didn't have to sacrifice itself vs opponent no. 1. Mega Gengar only really traps (i'm not downplaying it at all, it's damn good at what it does), but why exactly did you reject Arceus-Normal for S-Rank due to its lack of versatility when Gengar is there for its lack of versatility (not counting moves of course, e.g. Gengar runs HP Fire for Scizor, cause Ekiller can do the same to break any one of its checks and counters, e.g. LO Stone Edge for defensive Yveltal, even Giga Drain (!!!!) for Quagsire).

If someone can explain to me why this double standard is justified it'd be great, Arceus-Normal has gotten a lot lot better this generation as a huge portion of its checks are now complete garbage (e.g. Skarmory, Giratina) and the fact that it has several new offensive partners to play with in Xerneas and Blaziken. I'm not saying Arceus-Normal should be S per se, but there needs to be a better reason why it isn't S.
Basically yeah what WreckDra said. Also, I don't think Gengar is quite the best example, since supposedly all it does is trap and kill stuff. Well, that's not wrong but it horribly understates the effectiveness of that- Shadow Tag is so OP in general, and its utility is unrivaled.

However, I agree with the sentiment that versatility alone does not deter a pokemon from S rank, as Ekiller got better, but a whole ton of stuff got better and Ekiller finds itself struggling to warrant a teamspot over some of its other formes and stuff.

The other thing I will note is that, Ekiller isn't really that hard to beat, as while it can be tailored to beat its checks, most teams run >1 check and Ekiller can't run EVERYTHING at once. Whereas, Gengar's "checks" are all pursuiters, and there's a great risk in that since if you don't trap it, you get screwed over since he stallbreaks like there's no tomorrow, but if you end up accidentally forcing a double KO there's a great chance that a hole just opened up.
 
problems made a much more accurate statement that my lengthy essay some time back...

why is arceus normal anything but S rank.. you can theorymon this on paper for as long as you like but honestly its still the most deadly sweeper in the game
I think it's time to have an honest debate about it, as for me I feel more strongly convinced that anything but S-rank for this mon is total bullshit. However, I have already made my nice stances on this )my posts can be found early in this thread if anyone is interested) and I don't really feel like re-using the same arguments

ps. the criteria for S-rank is bullshit, have a look at PO's- they needed about three esteemed users to make it better.
 
Swords dance + extreme speed arceus normal is the single best set in Pokemon for the last 3 generations. I would go as far as to say it's the best set in all of Pokemon after gen 1 amnesia Mewtwo.

But good look convincing the people who make the decisions that. I've been arguing Arceus for S rank for 2 generations and it goes nowhere.
 
aegislash should drop to B- or even C+.

this thing needs to rely on gyro ball to break through xerneas, one pokemon it's supposed to counter... until you realize gyro ball fails to OHKO +2 xerneas even after stealth rock damage, before aegislash gets OHKOed back by HP Fire / Thunder. same with mega gengar, it dies to Shadow Ball as it exposes its blade forme or gets perish trapped. mega mewtwo Y ohkoes its blade forme with Fire Blast and usually avoids the 2hko from gyro ball. aegislash is not a reliable counter to the biggest ubers threats at all. then you add the fact that its slow as shit, weak, not that bulky on the physical side and has severe 4mss, and you get a pokemon which in my eyes just does not fit B rank.
If you let your aegi stay in blade form against a xerneas you're using it wrong. You king's shield to get back to shield form to avoid the KO. Being perish trapped is a strike against every defensive pokemon. Aegislash is a good Xern check with a lot of bulk that doesn't take up a mega slot, unlike ma wile or scizor, or an Arceus slot like Arceus poison or steel (I guess). That's why it's B rank, because it's the best option without high opportunity cost, and therefore has a very solid niche in ubers.
 
Not to double post, but no one is commenting anyway so here we go. I would like to nominate Charizard to move down to C- or C. Although Charizard holds a few niches, in sticky web abuse and I guess an offensive sun abuser, it's severely outclassed in both roles, by both Ho-oh and Lucario. Luke is a much better sticky web abuser given the nature of the style. Lucario suffers much less from hazards and is easier to build with/around. Zard-Y is not directly outclassed by Ho-oh, given they attack from different sides, but with regenerator, items boosting hits and better moves to abuse the excellent dual stabs, as well as having an easier time switching in.
 
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PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
WreckDra haxiom

yeah i don't think you guys got what i was saying at all, my main point was not at all "Arceus-Normal is S" but rather "why is Gengar S for doing only one thing, albeit one very important thing it's damn good at", cause it offers (almost) nothing outside of that. Are you using it on a stall team to remove opposing clerics? i doubt it. etc etc etc. Gengar has flaws too like Arceus-Normal does.

in short, the definitions of the ranks themselves are bad

I am not saying Arceus-Normal is S-Rank
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Holy shit just looked at viability and noticed something.

Goth from C+ => A- hell even A isn't that unreasonable.

Goth is essentially a better shadow tag user than mega gengar since it doesn't have that crucial mega evo turn and due to that, it's far harder to remove which is key. Because of that it can safely come in on key components on stall/balanced and then promptly remove/set up on them. The fact that it has so many key threats that it can set up on just helps it's effectiveness. Due to that, it applies humongous amounts of pressure to both respective play styles which often turns matchups into an uphill battle. Arguably it's not as effective against offensive teams but even then it still isn't as deadweight as people claim since it can set up tr and completely neuter all of offensive teams momentum since they tend to rely on faster offensive mons.

Overall due to its incredible matchups against two dominant playstyles while performing effectively against others, I'm monning goth for A-. C+ doesn't even make sense

edit: my grammar sux. I typed this up when I was like half drunk. Dun hate plz
 
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Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
Some gripes i have had for awhile:

A -> A+: Klefki will always find use in every game due to its ability to set up Spikes and spread status like no other. Its defensive niches are also crucial to just about any team with its resistance to both of Yveltal's STAB moves its ability to flawlessly cripple and damage Geomancy Xerneas being its two largest selling points. Its Prankster Thunder Wave is a nightmare for offensive teams, especially when it can just as easily catch the teams Ground-type with Toxic or hurt Zekrom / Thundurus's survivability with Play Rough which hurts Thundurus due to its Stealth Rock weakness and its Life Orb, and Zekrom gets put into the KO range of many other potential teammates of Klefki (i.e. Zeke can no longer switch into Choice Scarf Kyogre's full power Water Spout in an emergency, Extreme Killer Arceus can now OHKO it with +2 Extreme Speed ect). It formes a very solid core with Landorus-T and Palkia as well as a couple other making it pretty easy to put on teams. The hazards it provides as well as Toxic are extremely useful against stall and Defog balance with its ability to bring in and Toxic Defog Arceus formes and its ability to spread Toxic in general. If the opponent chooses to keep Defog Arceus out vs Klefki, they will have to deal with nasty Spikes until they can get it in against something else. The only archetype Klefki has serious issues with is sand balance due to Rapid Spin Excadrill being the number one counter to it. That being said, having Excadrill wear itself down with its Life Orb when spinning away Klefki's hazards can be very useful for the late game and if Klefki can force Excadrill to come in on Spikes, even better.

B -> C- or D: Bronzong simply finds it hard to carve itself a niche in XY. It is outperformed by Jirachi and Aegislash as a Geomancy Xerneas check, the Steel-type nerf now means Extreme Killer Arceus has a very good chance to OHKO it with a +2 Shadow Claw (although its Special Fire-type moves do nothing) and Mega Kangaskhan can beat it with Crunch, and every single Dragon in XY has a way around Bronzong. The only niche really seen for it is walling Groudon, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon as well as clerics so it can do whatever it needs to. As a dual screener, Deoxys-S is chosen over Bronzong for its fast Taunt and Bronzong finds it hard to fit on Trick Room (an archetype already severely hampered by the Steel-type nerf) due to its weakness to Dark- and Ghost-type attacks. Unless I missed something, Bronzong doesn't do much in XY at all and its defensive niche is extremely specialized. RIP Strongzong :[

B ->C+ or lower: No one can argue that Forretress has just as much, if not more utility than any other Pokemon in the tier when it comes to support moves, but this is almost entirely eclipsed by its lack of defensive niche and overall frailty. The Steel-type nerf rubs this in even more since it lost its key Dark- and Ghost-type resistance that helped so much in past generations. Its Dragon-type resistance is less valuable than it once was since the type of move is used much less often and Fairy-types are now immune to such moves. To put it on a team, you must have a good reason not to use Klefki or any other Steel-type that can check Geomancy Xerneas better then Forretress can because Forretress cannot do this itself. Klefki also challenges it as a Spikes user since, unlike Forretress, it has a very discernible defensive niche in checking Geomancy Xerneas, Yveltal, and Darkrai as well as still being able to, much like Forretress, use Toxic to heavily cripple support Arceus formes that attempt to Defog away its Spikes. Speaking of Defog, support Arceus formes basically stripped Forretress of its niche as a hazard remover and they fit on teams much better than Forretress due to there very large defensive niches. Forretress is a monster of a role compressor though; It can perform the functions of a hazard setter, hazard remover, pivot (with Volt Switch), and Toxic spreader all in one set, which is something no other Pokemon can do. When all is considered though, Forretress just isn't the Pokemon it used to be.

Tired... need sleep, will finish in the morning.
 
I disagree with putting Klefki in A+, it's simply not that good, albeit it's still a very useful mon. First off, to handle Xerneas Klefki needs large physical presence in form of its partners as just Thunder Waving while suiciding only stops Xerneas, without strong enough partners to pick it off you might have sacrifice 2-3 mons to check Xerneas. This means Klefki has trouble finding its ways into bulkier teams, especially stall and needs a bit more team support than you might think. Even though it can punish Defog Arceus via Toxic, not much can be done if said Defog Arceus is paired with a cleric unless you have Shadow Tag. Speaking of Shadow Tag, Klefki is Gothitelle prone unlike some other Xerneas checks (Scizor, Aegi, sdef Ferro+sdef Ogre etc). The best way to utilize Klefki is on quite offensive archetypes, it's simply not a mon you can slap on any team. Shadow Tag support+high physical presence somewhere on the build is almost mandatory so it kinda has its share of flaws.

To demonstrate my point, here is a replay from Harunos tour final- Kebabe vs Tomahawk: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-15137
Tomahawk tries bringing a stall build that lacks pursuit and has Klefki as the Xerneas check. What we can initially spot is that even after Klefki manages to Thunder Wave a Geomancy Xerneas, 2-3 mons will still go down for his team as he lacks any way whatsover of scratching the +2 sdef. Blissey is not a reasonable answer, Psyshock has been proven to be the most useful coverage move with HP Fire and sub is as always something prevalent. Second thing is, Gothitelle traps the shit out of Klefki anyway so Kebabe doesn't even have to worry about paralysis. I have heard some weird arguements, especially when Magnezone was rejected, about how Klefki can still set 3 layers of spikes against the trapper and then it should be possible to handle Xerneas anyway. Assuming Xerneas is used on a team without Defog, then of course that is true but many successful teams I have seen this generation still has Defog support with their Geomancy Xerneas, it's just a far fetched argument that 3 layers of spikes will always be there.

I agree with Forry and Bronzong to lower ranks, Bronzong C and Forry C- seems fair.
 
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I disagree with putting Klefki in A+, it's simply not that good, albeit it's still a very useful mon. First off, to handle Xerneas Klefki needs large physical presence in form of its partners as just Thunder Waving while suiciding only stops Xerneas, without strong enough partners to pick it off you might have sacrifice 2-3 mons to check Xerneas. This means Klefki has trouble finding its ways into bulkier teams, especially stall and needs a bit more team support than you might think. Even though it can punish Defog Arceus via Toxic, not much can be done if said Defog Arceus is paired with a cleric unless you have Shadow Tag. Speaking of Shadow Tag, Klefki is Gothitelle prone unlike some other Xerneas checks (Scizor, Aegi, sdef Ferro+sdef Ogre etc). The best way to utilize Klefki is on quite offensive archetypes, it's simply not a mon you can slap on any team. Shadow Tag support+high physical presence somewhere on the build is almost mandatory so it kinda has its share of flaws.


To demonstrate my point, here is a replay from Harunos tour final- Kebabe vs Tomahawk: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-15137
Tomahawk tries bringing a stall build that lacks pursuit and has Klefki as the Xerneas check. What we can initially spot is that even after Klefki manages to Thunder Wave a Geomancy Xerneas, 2-3 mons will still go down for his team as he lacks any way whatsover of scratching the +2 sdef. Blissey is not a reasonable answer, Psyshock has been proven to be the most useful coverage move with HP Fire and sub is as always something prevalent. Second thing is, Gothitelle traps the shit out of Klefki anyway so Kebabe doesn't even have to worry about paralysis. I have heard some weird arguements, especially when Magnezone was rejected, about how Klefki can still set 3 layers of spikes against the trapper and then it should be possible to handle Xerneas anyway. Assuming Xerneas is used on a team without Defog, then of course that is true but many successful teams I have seen this generation still has Defog support with their Geomancy Xerneas, it's just a far fetched argument that 3 layers of spikes will always be there.

I agree with Forry and Bronzong to lower ranks, Bronzong C and Forry C- seems fair.
I suppose I should reply to this. I've obviously done a few battles before with this team, and unless Klefki gets trapped I actually don't have too much trouble with Xerneas. If Xerneas is statused, Blissey beats it 1-on-1 (with the example of Psyshock, where I have to get a bit lucky to do so. Sub doesn't really matter though since with Klefki I can still status him regardless). Moonblast / Focus Blast do about 50% so depending if I used Toxic or Thunder Wave I can just Softboiled until Xerneas dies from Toxic damage, or Softboiled until a full paralysis, Seismic Toss and repeat.

You are right about the Pursuit thing, I definitely should have broguht a Pursuit user here, I paid the price. But I wouldn't say Klefki is unusable in stall, it just needs the right support (something that beats +2 Xerneas 1v1 if it's statused, and possibly a Pursuit user). Though obviously it works best on bulky offensive teams, no doubt about that.

I wouldn't put Klefki in A+ though, Spikes aren't really hard to remove with Defog and Rapid Spin being everywhere, and clerics are pretty common too. It can be somewhat deadweight against some teams, unless you bring a lot of support like Hack mentioned (Shadow Tag to take out Arceus).
 
Tornadus-T May not be an Uber...but it can pack some SERIOUS firepower if used right!


Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off
- U-turn

This is an example of a Pivot set for Tornadus-T. Use it well.
 
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