np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

For all of those who believe Kings Shield causes fair 50/50s watch this replay. It's sorta like SwagPlay, while it is a 50/50 the user has a much smaller drawback if the 50/50 goes the other way, likewise if it goes their way they get a much bigger reward.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-143005243

I believe that Aegislash's 50/50s are like SwagPlay, even though it is not mediated by a RNG, since you are hoping that your opponent would do something that would generate a free turn for yourself (well, at the cost of using a turn for Swagger or King's Shield). It is essentially a 50/50 because your opponent and yourself know the potential pay off matrix for the decisions made and the equilibrium is to prevent one's strategy from being predictable and exploitable. If you have a pattern, it can be exploited, and even if one allows his/herself to appear "predictable", to lull the opponent into a sense of security, the short-term cost against this while playing against Aegislash, especially with the potential King's Shield attack drop. The best way not to be exploit is to randomly (50/50) select one's moves (attack, switching out/using a boosting move OR "null" move like a fighting move) while facing Aegislash. To simply things, let's assume that all Aegislash are KS + Three Attacks, then there is almost no prediction (or information asymmetry except if the identity of the coverage move is relevant for a potential switch-in) since the potential payoffs are known to both players and their strategy while using or facing Aegislash is not to have a pattern that can easily be exploited for free turns.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Ok, my opinion on this is that Aegislash definitely belongs in ubers. Heck, its pretty much got ubers stats. It can switch between having 150 defense and special defense, which most ubers don't even have, to 150 attack and special attack. Heck, it even has kings shield, able to protect it from moves AND harshly lower the attacker's attack. Another problem with it is its typing and moves. With 150 defense and special defense it will take almost ANY non-boosted super effective move. Add swords dance/weakness policy to the it, and you're shadow sneaking your way to victory. Its typing helps it a lot too, its ghost and steel typing means lots of opponents need to switch out on you if you switch it in on the right Pokemon. Easily getting you a swords dance in.

Some may even argue that its speed is the thing letting it stay in ou, i think with its ridiculous defense, getting a shadow ball in without a scratch is quite the easy feat. Also, theres shadow sneak. We can all relate how many countless times some guy got a +6 attack aegislash on us and shadow sneaked everything and won. Everything that takes neutral damage from shadow sneak dies. The only type that resists shadow sneak is Dark, and normal. WHICH BOTH ARE WEAK TO ITS SKULL CRUSHING SACRED SWORD.

I mean you don't even need skill to use this thing! So many people who just swords dance away with this thing win battles they shouldn't have. It quite angers me when someone switches their Aegislash on me, and i have a horrible match up and need to switch out, and they pull a swords dance on me. And the weakness policy boost while in shield form can completely win you the game. I think this Pokemon is very cheap in ou, and seeing it gone would make the tier much more fun.

You sound like you don't have much experience in OU..

Shadow sneak, a 40 BP move, after it does activate weakness policy.. does less damage than a scizor bullet punch.. run calcs no joke. It has the stats for ubers, but it's moves aren't strong "somethings gonna die" moves like draco meteors..

*The only type that resists shadow sneak is Dark, and normal. WHICH BOTH ARE WEAK TO ITS SKULL CRUSHING SACRED SWORD.*

Same can be said with greninja. Venasaur and ferrothorn may competely wall it.. but it has the possibility of carrying extrasensory or HP fire..

We like to call things like that "coverage" which all pokemon carry.

 

[Mood4food77]

i was watching it and i'm like "aegis, just shadow ball, get him DDIng" he king shielded and zard x flare blitz

i'm like damn, that zard x is really frustrated

 

[Rajikaru]

You sound like you don't have much experience in OU..

Shadow sneak, a 40 BP move, after it does activate weakness policy.. does less damage than a scizor bullet punch.. run calcs no joke. It has the stats for ubers, but it's moves aren't strong "somethings gonna die" moves like draco meteors..

+2 252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 123-145 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 102-120 (28 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Choice band may do more but is also Choice Band. Meaning anything not weak to it forces it out.

 

[Inflikted]

A common sub variant can deal with amoonguss easily. Also, the standard amoonguss takes 44.6 - 52.7% from shadow ball (not a solid switch-in really).
Taking 1vs1 scenarios into account when considering the possible counters of a pokemon is dumb, in my opinion :/

Your calc is only correct in case Amoonguss runs a fully physically defensive spread... Which i doubt as Amoonguss usually wants to tank powerful attacks such as Specs Hydro Pump from Keldeo and needs investment to do it well. Amoonguss is actually a solid switch-in with SpDef investment.

Anyway, for the reasons i stated in my previous post, i'm still undecided. But when in doubt, I tend to prefer the conservative option, so I will probably vote no ban. I read posts saying "go play on the suspect ladder to experiment an Aegi-less metagame" and I agreed with those. Well, now I played too many games on the suspect ladder and the Aegi-less metagame and I'm not so impressed as I thought I would be when I started laddering. Yes, no need to worry about the KS 50/50s that are annoying, but it's not enough to convince me to vote for a ban.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

+2 252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 123-145 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 102-120 (28 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Choice band may do more but is also Choice Band. Meaning anything not weak to it forces it out.

I must be running my calcs wrong.. but nonetheless those are still really close. Aegislash waste an item slot to try and sweep with a move that does damage only a couple percent off to something that is unboosted.

 

[Rajikaru]

I must be running my calcs wrong.. but nonetheless those are still really close. Aegislash waste an item slot to try and sweep with a move that does damage only a couple percent off to something that is unboosted.

It's priority, and is only resisted by two types.

 

[LeoLancaster]

I must be running my calcs wrong.. but nonetheless those are still really close. Aegislash waste an item slot to try and sweep with a move that does damage only a couple percent off to something that is unboosted.

SD Aegislash should use a Life Orb, which that calc doesn't include. Also, SD Aegislash is faster than MVenu and can easily 1HKO with Iron Head and some residual damage and/or general weakening of the opponents team.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 160-188 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 317-374 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 317-374 (87 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This gives a better picture of SD Aegislash's power.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

SD Aegislash should use a Life Orb, which that calc doesn't include. Also, SD Aegislash is faster than MVenu and can easily 1HKO with Iron Head and some residual damage and/or general weakening of the opponents team.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 160-188 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 317-374 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 317-374 (87 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This gives a better picture of SD Aegislash's power.

Or Mega Venu puts you to sleep before you can attack (barring Shadow Sneak, which isn't what you want to use anyway). Mega Venu is naturally faster and I doubt SD Aegislash runs Jolly with speed investment... Also, Mega Venu should run a significant amount of Defense EV's to switch in on more things either way.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

SD Aegislash should use a Life Orb, which that calc doesn't include. Also, SD Aegislash is faster than MVenu and can easily 1HKO with Iron Head and some residual damage and/or general weakening of the opponents team.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 160-188 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 317-374 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 317-374 (87 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This gives a better picture of SD Aegislash's power.

Only if running speed EVs which is a horrible idea to begin with.. like above said venasuar will just put it to sleep or HP fire it in blade forme..

 

[Rajikaru]

Or Mega Venu puts you to sleep before you can attack (barring Shadow Sneak, which isn't what you want to use anyway). Mega Venu is naturally faster and I doubt SD Aegislash runs Jolly with speed investment... Also, Mega Venu should run a significant amount of Defense EV's to switch in on more things either way.

All Out Attacker Aegislash runs full Speed EVs, and M-Venusaur never runs them (running 20 EVs in speed at most). Also, Offensive M-Venusaur doesn't run sleep powder, and it doesn't matter anyway because it's an easy 2HKO on either forme.

Also, Life Orb can't be run if Weakness Policy is run, hence the +2 from Weakness Policy.

But it doesn't matter either way, the point originally being made was that Aegislash can be more powerful than Scizor without being restricted to a single move.

 

[Rajiit]

Aegislash is not OP, he should not be banned, he is hard to directly counter, yes. However, he is also hard to use. He is the most technical pokemon in the game, people continue to say that you can counter him with certain pokemon, Bisharp, Tyranitar etc. that is not true. The
only true counter to Aegislash is timing, and prediction. To use, or counter an Aegislash is like taking a huge risk for a huge reward. Predict correctly and you will be at an advantage for the rest of the game. Predict incorrectly and you will be at a disadvantage for the rest of the game.
I hope that people will come to their senses and realize that just because he is a good pokemon doesn't mean he has to be banned.

 

[LordGauss]

1. :)

2. It's not "pick your poison" because Pinsir has no choice; Aegislash is too important to pass up, even if it means giving up coverage on two Pokemon instead of one. "Pick your poison" would apply to Medicham in an Aegislash-less meta: Ice Punch for Landorus-T, or ThunderPunch for Slowbro. In this case Medicham does have the option of hitting either target. But with Aegislash around, Pinsir cannot give up Aegi coverage.

3. Terrakion isn't the best example, I acknowlege that.

4. I agree that there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but the problem is that Aegislash does this to an excessive number of 'mons.

It's not a bad precedent, because it's basically overcentralization. The unique aspect is that Aegislash just rides the border of overcentralization and acceptable centralization. We also have to ask ourselves if, even if the borderline-overcentralization is technically beneficial, is it healthy in the long run?



Skarmory and MVenu force less Pokemon into using otherwise sub-optimal coverage. Again, it all depends on where you draw the line between centralization and overcentralization.

Regarding Pinsir, I don't see how he is any exception to the rule of "pick yor poison." The only reason Pinsir chooses Aegislash over Rotom-wash is popularity. Rotom threatens Pinsir just as much as Aegis, so it is truly up to the player to decide the counter. Pinsir is still a bad example because his preferred set is cockblocked just by Aegislash's typing, which should never be grounds for overcentralization.

I did not say that banning for overcentralizinng is a bad precedent, but using Pinsir and Terrakion as primary examples implies there is something inherently broken about Steel/Ghost which is certainly an unhealthy idea.

My point is that Aegislash defensively does nothing wrong because it is primarily the result of typing and bulk. It is only when this bulk comes in tandem with its offensive uncounterability that we get a problem, but ONLY then as that is when Aegislash becomes too easy and low risk to abuse, which meets Aldaron's criteria for Uber.

 

[GerMoj]

Hi there :) I waited a little to have some time to read and meditate about all the arguments in here about the suspect.
I'v seen four important points about this suspect: Base Stats, Centralizing, Diversity, 50/50. I'll analyze all of this points to try to see all the cons and pros about this mon.
Base Stats: Well, maybe Aegislash has enough base stats to be ubers right from the bat, but in practice it isn't such a big trouble. Yes, it hits hard and can tank hits to retaliate but this is bounded to use une move: Kings Shield, this makes Aegislash have a sever 3MSS and with common Fire, Ground and Dark attacks everywhere it won't last too long. Shadow ball has an 80 attack power, making it hit softer than other comon Special Attackers such as LO Keldeo and Landorus-I.
Diversity: Aegislash has many sets it can fulfill effectively, but all of them lack the prefect combination of moves to effectively destroy every kind of teams. Yeah, SubToxic can criple Mandibuzz and Hippo, but you have to consider that many mons can run toxic to criple your walls, not only Aegislash. Taunt mandibuzz laughs at Aegislash and cleric support in defensive teams make thus set useless. Banning a Pokemon because of its diversity may seem kinda absurd. Remember Jirachi last gen, maybe it is the only mon with 10 effective sets, recovery, boosting, and an amazing ability with only 2 weaknesses (1 on rain). Aegislash has fewer sets, and after attacking the set becomes obvious and easy to handle.
Centralizing: Aegislaah has shaped the metagame greatly. I still remember when Terrakion and Lucario were over there spamming CC and KO-ing everything. Yes, Aegislash brought many lower tier mons to OU, and no, that is not unhealthy for the meta as now some kind can actually shine. Secondly: Wake Up! This is a new gen so many things will change including our meta. Starmie was good because of rain and that it could defeat every spinblocker under rain. Now nerf and spinning aren't as necessary as they were in gen 5, Aegislash is not the only thing that beats Starmie now. Yes, Aegislash made an impact on the meta, but it made it healthier rather than centralizing it. Many say "X Pokemon will shine with aegislash gone" So maybe it will be better to ban Charizard Y to make Mega Aggron a more viable choice? No, Charizard Y is OU and he will not move to Ubers just to make some other mons be OU.
50/50
Kings shield makes a Win-Lose situation. Making the reward to the aegislash user bigger than the risk. But here come what a good Pokemon player must have: prediction. Mindgames are part of Pokemon, guess right get the reward, guess wrong and pay the price. Again, the Aegislash user has almost all the time the upper hand, our jobs as a competitive player is to take the best decision to win the game and even push aegealish into an extreme situation.
All in all, Aegislash is a powerful Pokemon that a shapes the meta, but he is not as powerful to deserve a ban.

 

[Maximanz]

You sound like you don't have much experience in OU..

Shadow sneak, a 40 BP move, after it does activate weakness policy.. does less damage than a scizor bullet punch.. run calcs no joke. It has the stats for ubers, but it's moves aren't strong "somethings gonna die" moves like draco meteors..

*The only type that resists shadow sneak is Dark, and normal. WHICH BOTH ARE WEAK TO ITS SKULL CRUSHING SACRED SWORD.*

Same can be said with greninja. Venasaur and ferrothorn may competely wall it.. but it has the possibility of carrying extrasensory or HP fire..

We like to call things like that "coverage" which all pokemon carry.

I don't see where you got the information on "does less damage than a scizor bullet punch" from because:
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 204-240 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO (+2 cause weakness policy, as you said)
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 136-162 (32.8 - 39.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO

And see, greninja is managable it doesnt get any stat boost moves so usually you can take a hit to kill it. Aegislash on the other hand, if it gets boosts, usually if you take neutral damage to its shadow sneak you may even be OHKO'd after rocks. And god forbid you be weak to its shadow sneak because theres no doubt youre going to die there.

+6 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 326-386 (107.2 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO +6 in case you get the swords dances up, and the weakness policy, its not too hard to get to +6 attack with aegislash, believe me. IT OHKOS a bold deoxys defense (which is now ubers) If you get rocks up to get rid of lugia's multiscale, aegislashs gun' kill it.

And the point you made about counters and stuff, no. If aegislash has the chance to OHKO something with shadow sneak, theres nothing you can do about it. Its priority. Its like if venusaur had a priority giga drain on your greninja, it would die. You could say shadow sneak isnt strong yes, but you can even run shadow claw on it, and at full hp this thing can take a dark pulse from a life orb greninja.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 203-242 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bam, theres that weakness policy boost, here comes the sacred sword and we all know thats one dead greninja. If your team doesnt carry hard hitting SE moves on aegislash, that aegislash is going to mess up your team.

 

[Blizzardhail]

I don't see where you got the information on "does less damage than a scizor bullet punch" from because:
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 204-240 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO (+2 cause weakness policy, as you said)
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 136-162 (32.8 - 39.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO

And see, greninja is managable it doesnt get any stat boost moves so usually you can take a hit to kill it. Aegislash on the other hand, if it gets boosts, usually if you take neutral damage to its shadow sneak you may even be OHKO'd after rocks. And god forbid you be weak to its shadow sneak because theres no doubt youre going to die there.

+6 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 326-386 (107.2 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO +6 in case you get the swords dances up, and the weakness policy, its not too hard to get to +6 attack with aegislash, believe me. IT OHKOS a bold deoxys defense (which is now ubers) If you get rocks up to get rid of lugia's multiscale, aegislashs gun' kill it.

And the point you made about counters and stuff, no. If aegislash has the chance to OHKO something with shadow sneak, theres nothing you can do about it. Its priority. Its like if venusaur had a priority giga drain on your greninja, it would die. You could say shadow sneak isnt strong yes, but you can even run shadow claw on it, and at full hp this thing can take a dark pulse from a life orb greninja.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 203-242 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bam, theres that weakness policy boost, here comes the sacred sword and we all know thats one dead greninja. If your team doesnt carry hard hitting SE moves on aegislash, that aegislash is going to mess up your team.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 205-243 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 204-240 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
There you go. Choice Band is the norm on standard Scizor. All the other roles it can perform are outclassed by M-Scizor. Also SD is a terribly uneffective set walled by Mandibuzz. Weakness Policy and Swords Dance are bad sets. Please stop using them.

 

[Not Zer0]

As you so wisely pointed out, anything weak to shadow sneak is on a poor end vs Aegislash, as obviously being weak to STAB priority hurts, and then you go and use SOMETHING WEAK TO SHADOW SNEAK as your example that it is overpowered. A better example would have been Hippowdon, Gliscor, Skarmory, or Ferrothorn -all of whom are neutral- where this pales in comparison.

+6 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 204-241 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 196-232 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+6 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 190-225 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 181-214 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Provided Ferro is rocky helmet, that cost Aegis 25% HP just for a predicted shadow sneak, and it's not like you can't switch to something that resists Sacred Sword, no?

I'd like to point out that all these are at +6, and that Deoxys calc earlier shows that aegis barely kills Deo-D at +6. Hardly overpowered.

 

[Not Zer0]

I realize I messed up the formatting of my above post. I'm no smogon forums god, so bear with me.

 

[alexwolf]

One of the main arguments for banning of Aegislash is that more and more Pokemon will be viable, and teambuilding will have a much greater degree of freedom.

Teambuilding will be more varied only for offensive teams, because balanced and stall teams will be busy covering all the offensive Pokemon Aegislash used to keep in check (from getting even better, not becoming overpowered). But do we really need to make offense any better? I still have yet to hear which are all those useful Pokemon that Aegislash prevents from being good, aside from completely offensive stuff (Terrakion, Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, Lucario, Staraptor, Mega Pinsir, Mega Medicham, Mega Alakazam).

Deoxy-D's suspect testing was done on the grounds of overcentralizing the metagame around hyper-offense, which is literally the same thing Aegislash is being banned for; overcentralizing the metagame to find ways to defeat this sentient piece of medieval weaponry. So many Pokemon like Dragonite, Mega Pinsir, Tyranitar, and Terrakion are basically forced to run Earthquake due to the mere existence of Aegislash and its signature move King's Shield, when they could be running much more useful moves and 'spicing' up the metagame. Aegislash's presence forces almost every offensive Pokemon to run obscure coverage moves JUST to hit Aegislash, and this makes for an extremely stale metagame.

Forcing the metagame to adapt to it's presence is not a reason to ban Aegislash. You have to look at the effect of the centralization that Aegislash causes. In this case, what Aegislash does is limit the potential of some offensive Pokemon, which is pretty fucking cool if you ask me, because the metagame is already too offensive, imagine what would happen if all those Pokemon weren't limited by Aegislash. Of course you can ignore this part if you prefer an even more offensive metagame.

Also, you said that Aegislash makes Pokemon such as Terrakion, Mega Medicham, and Mega Heracross unviable, which just isn't true, as all of those are great Pokemon in OU.

Finally, these so called 50-50s mostly happen when Aegislash is facing offensive Pokemon. Defensive Pokemon either use status against Aegislash, don't care about King's Shield (Foul Play, special Fire moves, and EQ users), or use Knock Off to deal with it, which cripples Aegislash even if it turns into Shield Forme. So those 50-50s only really trouble offensive answers to Aegislash, which in turns causes a lot of offensive Pokemon to resort to Earthquake to hit Aegislash on the physical side. However, as i already said, this is something good because it limits offensive teams and their potential, which would be bigger in a metagame without Aegislash, and we really don't need a more offensive metagame.

 

[Red Cat]

Teambuilding will be more varied only for offensive teams, because balanced and stall teams will be busy covering all the offensive Pokemon Aegislash used to keep in check (from getting even better, not becoming overpowered). But do we really need to make offense any better? I still have yet to hear which are all those useful Pokemon that Aegislash prevents from being good, aside from completely offensive stuff (Terrakion, Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, Lucario, Staraptor, Mega Pinsir, Mega Medicham, Mega Alakazam).

Forcing the metagame to adapt to it's presence is not a reason to ban Aegislash. You have to look at the effect of the centralization that Aegislash causes. In this case, what Aegislash does is limit the potential of some offensive Pokemon, which is pretty fucking cool if you ask me, because the metagame is already too offensive, imagine what would happen if all those Pokemon weren't limited by Aegislash. Of course you can ignore this part if you prefer an even more offensive metagame.

Also, you said that Aegislash makes Pokemon such as Terrakion, Mega Medicham, and Mega Heracross unviable, which just isn't true, as all of those are great Pokemon in OU.

Finally, these so called 50-50s mostly happen when Aegislash is facing offensive Pokemon. Defensive Pokemon either use status against Aegislash, don't care about King's Shield (Foul Play, special Fire moves, and EQ users), or use Knock Off to deal with it, which cripples Aegislash even if it turns into Shield Forme. So those 50-50s only really trouble offensive answers to Aegislash, which in turns causes a lot of offensive Pokemon to resort to Earthquake to hit Aegislash on the physical side. However, as i already said, this is something good because it limits offensive teams and their potential, which would be bigger in a metagame without Aegislash, and we really don't need a more offensive metagame.

It is has covered countless times in this thread that Aegislash's effect on the usage of other Pokemon has nothing to do with whether it should be banned or not. Ginganinja has said multiple times in this thread that this argument just derails the discussion about whether Aegislash is broken or not. If banning Aegislash means future bans become necessary, then we'll get to those too. Remember, in Gen V, the different kinds of weather all checked each other and prevented one type of weather from completely dominating, but most people were happy when Gen VI came because keeping all of the weather to check the other weathers was considered to be unhealthy for the meta by many people. If stall teams have to rely on Aegislash's "presence" in OU as their main way of stopping wall-breakers, then that is unhealthy for OU because it puts an over-reliance on team match-up. I said this before, and I'll say this again: The "Aegislash checks Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, etc." is just a straw man argument which has no importance in this suspect test.

 

[alexwolf]

It is has covered countless times in this thread that Aegislash's effect on the usage of other Pokemon has nothing to do with whether it should be banned or not. Ginganinja has said multiple times in this thread that this argument just derails the discussion about whether Aegislash is broken or not. If banning Aegislash means future bans become necessary, then we'll get to those too. Remember, in Gen V, the different kinds of weather all checked each other and prevented one type of weather from completely dominating, but most people were happy when Gen VI came because keeping all of the weather to check the other weathers was considered to be unhealthy for the meta by many people. If stall teams have to rely on Aegislash's "presence" in OU as their main way of stopping wall-breakers, then that is unhealthy for OU because it puts an over-reliance on team match-up. I said this before, and I'll say this again: The "Aegislash checks Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, etc." is just a straw man argument which has no importance in this suspect test.

Who talked about banning more stuff? I only said that offense will get better, not that offensive threats will become broken. So this new metagame can be balanced, but it will be bad, at least imo, because the metagame doesn't need to get more offensive. The argument is that Aegislash prevents the metagame from becoming more offensive, not that Aegislash keeps in check broken threats.

 

[Red Cat]

Who talked about banning more stuff? I only said that offense will get better, not that offensive threats will become broken. So this new metagame can be balanced, but it will be bad, at least imo, because the metagame doesn't need to get more offensive. The argument is that Aegislash prevents the metagame from becoming more offensive, not that Aegislash keeps in check broken threats.

Whether the meta becomes more offensive or defensive because of a ban still has nothing to do with whether a Pokemon should be banned or not. If we were to go by that logic, we should unban Lugia because it helps make the meta more defensive to balance out all of the offense in OU.

 

[alexwolf]

Whether the meta becomes more offensive or defensive because of a ban still has nothing to do with whether a Pokemon should be banned or not. If we were to go by that logic, we should unban Lugia because it helps make the meta more defensive to balance out all of the offense in OU.

It has everything to do with banning Aegislash if one doesn't find Aegislash individually broken, which i don't. Pokemon can and have been banned because of their negative influence in a tier and not because they were overpowered, so if a Pokemon's presence in the metagame is positive and you don't believe its overpowered, why would you want to ban it? Of course if you think it's overpowered then this is another case, but realize that the argument ''Aegislash is good for the metagame'' is a very valid reason for not banning it. Stop bringing up how Aegislash limits all those offensive Pokemon, because to most people that's a good thing, not a reason to ban it (i say most, because that's what the results of the poll that Chou contacted show, that most people want the metagame to be less offensive than it is now). Instead, focus on showing why Aegislash is individually broken.

Your Lugia example doesn't work because Lugia would be overpowered, even if its presence in the metagame was good, which i doubt.

 

[Red Cat]

It has everything to do with banning Aegislash if one doesn't find Aegislash individually broken, which i don't. Pokemon can and have been banned because of their negative influence in a tier and not because they were overpowered, so if a Pokemon's presence in the metagame is positive and you don't believe its overpowered, why would you want to ban it? Of course if you think it's overpowered then this is another case, but realize that the argument ''Aegislash is good for the metagame'' is a very valid reason for not banning it. Stop bringing up how Aegislash limits all those offensive Pokemon, because to most people that's a good thing, not a reason to ban it (i say most, because that's what the results of the poll that Chou contacted show, that most people want the metagame to be less offensive than it is now). Instead, focus on showing why Aegislash is individually broken.

Your Lugia example doesn't work because Lugia would be overpowered, even if its presence in the metagame was good, which i doubt.

A lot of your posts and many of the anti-ban posts on the VR thread have argued that Aegislash should not be banned because it checks offensive threats which is good for the meta, then when you all have been called out for using bad reasoning for justifying a no ban position, you say it matters if Aegislash is not broken. So why not just argue the italicized point in the first place instead of bringing up all of these powerful megas? It is really this simple: If Aegislash is broken; ban it. If Aegislash is not broken, don't ban it. The wall-breaking megas do not have any influence on whether Aegislash is broken or not. So far, you have devoted most of your posts as to why Aegislash is healthy for the meta, but almost nothing as to why it is not broken. Meanwhile, Jukain and Aldaron have made very strong posts as to why Aegislash is broken. I think most of the anti-ban side brings up the wall-breaking megas because they do not have strong responses to Jukain and Aldaron. As for the Lugia example, I think it describes Aegislash perfectly. Aegislash is an overpowered threat which makes the meta more defensive, just like Lugia.

 

[lildudespider]

Aegislash's move King's Shield may be the greatest reason for the suspect.
Aegislash is extremely bulky and is able to deal with many threats with ease due to having massive defense and special defence from the get go.
Once Aegislash switches from his shield form to his attack form he's a washed up Azumarill.

Imagine a "castrated" Aegislash with no King's Shield.
Aegislash uses Sacred Sword - Blocked by Protect or blocked by switch in to ghost type.
That's a wrap lady's and gentlemen.
It doesn't get any easier than that.
Take his shield and he's an entirely different Pokemon.
Imagine not having to rage every time you see him in a team.

If he's banned or not it doesn't matter to me, it just leaves opportunity for more Pokemon to shine in OU.