XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Pipotchi]

I think Doublade should be C+, or perhaps B- at most. Honestly I don't feel like this pokemon actually holds up as a spinblocker, it gets beat by donphan and blastoise easily and can't even do much back, even to weaker spinners like tentacruel (who should win with scald or knock off) and forretress who takes 18% from sacred sword and can still do things like set up hazards. As far as offense goes, its options for a physical ghost stab are obviously lacking, and good 110 attack doesn't do much when A) people use eviolite instead of life orb (the latter i think is honestly perhaps a better option...) and B), his ghost type physical attacks are either 40 BP or 70... I mean that just straight up sucks if you are hoping for offense, and wont even break through ghost-weak pokemon like slowbro unless you're using life orb + shadow claw. Not to mention that it can't even wall most fighting types like it might hope due to knock off, and tbh even taking 25% from a florges uninvested moonblast is not good considering no leftovers recovery.. Doublade will rise up to check pokemon from BL ironically, like Staraptor and Hawlucha, but once they get pushed back into BL Doublade never seems to do much.

What do you guys think? It might just be that eviolite is an outdated build for him, and I feel like the sword's dance sets benefit much moreso from shadow blade than from eviolite- it lets him do stuff like ohko slowbro at +2 with shadow claw as well as sweep/revenge far more successfully with a shadow sneak if you choose to go that route. His ghost STABs just have such bad base power. Or perhaps Im underselling this guy? He also has pretty horrible 4MSS just due to wanting a good ghost STAB while also having access to priority- shadow sneak is very awful at getting past the things that resist iron head because it deals the exact same damage as a resisted iron head. Only vs stuff like slowbro is shadow sneak even dealing more damage, and even at +6 shadow sneak is only a 18% chance of a ohko with eviolite. eugh

 

[RowDog]

I'd have to say Doublade for C+ or C. It just isn't very viable in the tier at the moment, with no recovery and its typing actually isn't that good when looking at all of the Physically based threats. Its weakness to Fire means it sucks vs. Vic and Darm, Knock Off is rather prevalent in the tier which especially sucks for an Eviolite user with a weakness to Dark, the amount of Bulky Water-types running around suck for it as it hates Scald and quite frankly there are just too many things that walk over Doublade in UU. It is also isn't anywhere near as good as it once was because the things which it really walled are BL or gone. Hawlucha, Staraptor and Mega-Medicham were what made Doublade a real good choice on a team for walling those Pokemon that most couldn't, but they aren't here anymore and now there is nothing left for Doublade to really do. It is still a Physically Bulky monster with a pretty strong SD set, but the Pokemon in the tier are rather unfriendly towards it, making it generally outclassed.

 

[dingbat]

This might as well be my last post before I depart from JFK airport

Doublade should drop to B- rank. Although it can effectively revenge kill or check some of the top threats in this tier such as Zam, Luke, and Victini while being able to set up on the likes of Slowbro and Blissey, Doublade often has trouble dealing with bulky 'mons in this tier such as Hippo and Suicune, and it's easily worn down by the likes of strong, super effective physical attacks or strong special attacks in general. Not to mention it is a perfect burn target as its ability hampers it in a way that will-o-miss will have perfect accuracy rather than that slight miss chance.

Donphan on the other hand is really solid and should stay B+ rank. Although it lacks recovery that Hippo has, it trades that for greater offensive presence with the added bonus of being able to spin hazards away while having a new answer to certain spinblockers with its buffed Knock Off.

Anyways, as I have mentioned to some already, I will be out for two weeks; until then.

 

[Limitless]

Donphan is staying in B+ rank, while Doublade is moving down to B- rank.

The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Drapion and Durant.

 

[Skankovich]

I think Durant should move up, it threatens all of the drops with a band, and can 1hko literally every single one with superpower (yes, even alakazam). Not only that, it outspeeds every drop but alakazam and resists lucario's extremespeed, and its high physical defense means it can easily shrug off infernape's mach punch. It also tears apart the typical stall "pink core" with its stabs alone, but with stall in general it struggles a little with full physdef hippo and alomo. Its awful special bulk limits its switchin opportunites, but it can easily get in on the physically attacking stall mons or the fairies, and set up or nuke something.

A hone claws set requires a little more support (it needs sticky web imo) than band, but durant still threatens multiple teamstyles with its ridiculous attack, useful STABS and great speed tier, and deserves to be A-.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I've messed around with Durant quite a lot in UU, I can testify that it does have a lot of power behind most of its moves (regardless HC or CB), but my biggest issue with it is its accuracy issues. Running CB isn't optimal because every single one of its STABs is essentially Hydro Miss and his coverage move Stone Miss misses even more. Hone Claws does nullify it to some degree, but its set-up opportunities are somewhat limited for two reasons. First, his typing makes it extremely neutral/weak to the most important typings in the metagame. Steel is a very good typing, but with absolutely strong Fighting types and a lot of Specially based Dark and Fire type moves, he gets pushed out a lot. Second, his SpD stat is as bad as Cloyster, meaning any unresisted Special Attack does significant damage to it. Tacking on to that, Durant's HP stat kind of nullifies any benefit his 112 defense stat afford it. He has a lot of potential, but is severely hindered by multiple factors. Definitely B+ and not higher.

 

[Sage]

I tried using Drapion for a couple matches and I think I got an understanding of how he works. His Swords Dance set can break pink cores very easily, boosting in front of slowbro and at +2 has a good chance to ohko. Calcs are on bottom. However, while he is a good stallbreaker that can come in kinda like Chandelure on the pink cores, he struggles to put in any kinda work against more offensive teams. Drapion knows agility, but his base 90 attack means he's not strong enough to just use agility and killl a couple mons on an offensive team. And double dance will never have the time to get 2 boosts unless your opponent outright sucks. So Drapion, while finding use as a stall breaker, is not very strong against offensive teams so I suggest Drapion from B+ to B.

+2 252+ Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 366-432 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Drapion Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 396-468 (97.5 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 490-577 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

EDIT: Choice Band can be useful but misses Ohkoes and 2hkoes on stuff like blissey, slowbro and Aromatisse listed above. Once locked into a move Drapions 90 atk prevents it from severely hurting the switch in bar Knock Off.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I have used Drapion frequently, and it's pretty solid but I think it should be dropped to B. The main problem with it is that it's kinda weak before it boosts because 90 Attack really isn't that impressive. It also has the same problem as other boosting sweepers in that it's very vulnerable when it's setting up. It's also kinda slow, so it has some trouble against faster threats since 95 is not that good of a speed unless you run Web support. That said, I tried the SD set and it's good at breaking stall with its coverage and uses its bulk to be able to set up. So yeah, B is probably good for it since it does have a few issues and needs a somewhat specific team composition to work well, but it has some pretty good niches and is solid if you need what it has to offer.

As for Durant, I have not used it much but I don't think it should be moved up. It's just way too frail to be anywhere in the A Ranks. Durant needs to set up Hone Claws to ensure a sweep, otherwise it will miss very frequently and is honestly not that strong because of its reliance on low BP STABs (for the record, it's barely stronger than a Primeape). It's actually really hard to set up too because Durant is so frail; especially against special attacks which basically wreck it. Durant has a case of 4MSS as well, since it needs Hone Claws as well as its STABs, and depending on what it picks for coverage something will beat it. CB is cool but all of its moves have only 80% accuracy so it will miss pretty frequently. Durant can be dangerous, but it's not up to par with any A Rank Pokemon so it should stay where it is.

 

[Skankovich]

80% accuracy isn't that bad at all though? It's certainly not ideal, but the tradeoff is worth it. The fact is, Durant is much better in this meta than it was, and it was in B+ prior to the shifts and thus it only makes sense for it to move up. Frailty isn't as much of an issue when you outspeed and 1hko most of the offensive portion of the tier, and it's hardly like frailty is stopping mons like Absol, Infernape and Luc inhabiting the upper tiers.

 

[Jacks0n]

Stop saying this is good because it beats pink cores, lots of things break pink cores, but they usually struggle to break the thing supporting the weakness of pink cores.

 

[DiscoDucky]

80% accuracy isn't that bad at all though? It's certainly not ideal, but the tradeoff is worth it. The fact is, Durant is much better in this meta than it was, and it was in B+ prior to the shifts and thus it only makes sense for it to move up. Frailty isn't as much of an issue when you outspeed and 1hko most of the offensive portion of the tier, and it's hardly like frailty is stopping mons like Absol, Infernape and Luc inhabiting the upper tiers.

80% accuracy is pretty bad for a CB wallbreaker, and not having a single reliably accurate in your toolkit runs a lot of risks. For example, when up against some common defensive threats:
0 Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 88-104 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 153-180 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 154-183 (59.6 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 91-108 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is just a handful I've pulled out of a hat. Durant has absolutely no problem destroying most of the Pokemon on this list. However, if we factor in risk versus reward, you can see that the trade-off isn't worth it. 80% accuracy is an incredible risk to take as a wallbreaker. Now matched up against common defensive threats in UU, you can clearly see that Durant takes significant damage from unboosted attacks. In fact, we can make a comparison with Heracross in terms of wallbreaking power. Durant's X-Scissor after Hustle does the same damage as Megahorn but has a 5% lower accuracy. Furthermore, Heracross has a boatload of tools that allow it function better, such as higher Attack, good secondary STAB, and Guts, which punishes random Scald burns.

As a sweeper, the primary issue with Durant is its typing. Bug/Steel is a very bad offensive typing and has incredible 4MSS that leaves something always uncovered (assuming you're running Hone Claws, which is almost standard). Factor in the aforementioned Risk vs. Reward, and Durant is basically rolling a die on moves that usually should easily kill a Pokemon (Superpower has 80% Acc and Stone Edge has 64% Acc). In order to correct this, Hone Claws is next to mandatory, which forces you to use a turn of set-up while your aforementioned Pokemon don't need to set up to function optimally.

 

[Sean B.]

I think Durant should move up, it threatens all of the drops with a band, and can 1hko literally every single one with superpower (yes, even alakazam). Not only that, it outspeeds every drop but alakazam and resists lucario's extremespeed, and its high physical defense means it can easily shrug off infernape's mach punch. It also tears apart the typical stall "pink core" with its stabs alone, but with stall in general it struggles a little with full physdef hippo and alomo. Its awful special bulk limits its switchin opportunites, but it can easily get in on the physically attacking stall mons or the fairies, and set up or nuke something.

A hone claws set requires a little more support (it needs sticky web imo) than band, but durant still threatens multiple teamstyles with its ridiculous attack, useful STABS and great speed tier, and deserves to be A-.

Banded Durant really isn't that good compared to other band users, even with the huge attack it doesn't do too much damage because of its low powered STABs. It doesn't do more damage than other UU band users and it has to rely on terrible 80% accuracy unlike the other band users who mostly has 100% reliable attacks.

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 403-475 (118.1 - 139.2%)
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 372-438 (109 - 128.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 367-433 (107.6 - 126.9%)
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%)
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%)
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 259-306 (75.9 - 89.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 246-291 (72.1 - 85.3%)
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%)
252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 229-270 (67.1 - 79.1%)
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%)

 

[Skankovich]

Bug/Steel is a traditionally bad offensive typing, but here in UU it hits every typical physical wall neutrally or super effectively, so it's not really as much of an issue. Heracross' STABs meanwhile are blocked by fairy which is an incredibly common stall type (and flying but that less so) and it doesn't have the coverage or power to break through the fairies unlike Durant has for Steel and most Fires. So while Heracross' STABs are theoretically better, in the current meta I think durant has the advantage. And besides, the only really relevant thing that resists Iron Head/X-Scissor/Superpower in the tier is Chandelure, so why bother running Stone-even-more-miss when you can run Crunch.

Heracross is definitely a better wallbreaker, that I don't disagree with, but Durant has an infinitely better match up against offense with its great speed. Being able to deal decently with both ends of the spectrum in one set is really useful.

Banded Durant really isn't that good compared to other band users, even with the huge attack it doesn't do too much damage because of its low powered STABs. It doesn't do more damage than other UU band users and it has to rely on terrible 80% accuracy unlike the other band users who mostly has 100% reliable attacks.

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 403-475 (118.1 - 139.2%)
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 372-438 (109 - 128.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 367-433 (107.6 - 126.9%)
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%)
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%)
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 259-306 (75.9 - 89.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 246-291 (72.1 - 85.3%)
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%)
252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 229-270 (67.1 - 79.1%)
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%)

Sure Durant isn't the hardest hitting banded mon, I never claimed so. Its main advantage is its speed tier and type coverage- while Darm can only hit really hard with flare blitz, victini with v-create and mienshao with HJK, Durant deals the same damage with both its stabs and superpower, making it less predictable and harder to deal with for offense.

This is just a handful I've pulled out of a hat. Durant has absolutely no problem destroying most of the Pokemon on this list. However, if we factor in risk versus reward, you can see that the trade-off isn't worth it. 80% accuracy is an incredible risk to take as a wallbreaker.

Why is it not worth it? I think it's way more of an incredible risk for stall to rely on a 20% chance to survive and keep their vulnerable mons out to not even 1hko you, and at best try for another 30% chance to burn you.

Again, if Durant was B+ in the last meta why should it not move up now, where it clearly has a better time? All the issues brought up existed prior to this meta too, and they're not any more or less relevant now. I'm asking for A-, not S.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Why is it not worth it? I think it's way more of an incredible risk for stall to rely on a 20% chance to survive and keep their vulnerable mons out to not even 1hko you, and at best try for another 30% chance to burn you.

Again, if Durant was B+ in the last meta why should it not move up now, where it clearly has a better time? All the issues brought up existed prior to this meta too, and they're not any more or less relevant now. I'm asking for A-, not S.

Let us go through the definition of a B-Rank Pokemon:
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

First Part: Effective accuracy factors into defensive play, and if your defensive wallbreaking power is compromised, your wallbreaking also suffers. Furthermore, Durant relies too heavily on Hone Claws to sweep safely.

Second Part: Outperformed by mixed wallbreakers (Hydreigon, Infernape, Victini) and Heracross.

Verdict: B+ because it' strong as fuck.

 

[KM]

durant was never officially ranked in the last meta as far as I know, which means that its tentative ranking in the last meta shouldn't be used as a basis for comparison whatsoever

also I see no evidence whatsoever that durant was better in the "last meta" than it is in this meta. It's not exactly like it has godly matchups against Alakazam, Infernape, and Lucario.

 

[Limitless]

Both Drapion and Durant are moving down to B- rank. A lot of you guys were saying B and B+ for these two, but seriously, look at where you're putting them. The rankings are no longer inflated.

The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Entei and Empoleon.

 

[Sage]

Entei from B+ to B or B-. Entei is by no means a slouch, with solid bulk, a spamable move that spreads burns really easily, and access to Extreme Speed. But, looking at the other fire types, even just the physical ones in UU, this is a rather small niche compared to what they have. Victini has a better nuke and one of the best movepools in the game with gems like Grass Knot, Bolt Strike, Trick, and even Trick Room. Darmanitan is much stronger comparably, and more coverage options. Infernape has the versatility to run a multitude of different sets that all have different checks and counters. (Special Mixnape is better btw, just an example) Notice all 3 pokes just mentioned have access to U-turn. Entei's ability to use extreme speed now seems rather small compared to what other Fire Types have access too. What I'm trying to really drive in is that the opportunity cost of using Entei is extremely high, compared to other fire types in a tier filled with them. Entei is not as bad as most other pokes put into the B- tier, but this meta is rather unkind to him and as user Sean B. said he doesn't hit as hard as some of the other common choice band users. I think he would be ok in B tier too, very comparable to Flygon right now. Fulfills a niche but is incredibly predictable. So to wrap it up Low B rank or High B- rank seems right for Entei imo. If anything put him into B rank it's burn spreading rapidly. Extreme speed not coming of STAB doesn't hit as hard as you would want it to.

 

[canasian]

I think both 'mons fit in B rank.
Entei has a bit of an issue with coverage; while Sacred Fire is an amazing move that's really dangerous to switch into because of the 50% burn chance, it doesn't really have much to its movepool beyond that and Extreme Speed, especially in comparison to Victini and even Darmanitan which have U-Turn to avoid confronting their standard switch-ins. It's bulk is kinda middling between the two aforementioned Fire-types, and while technically its speed is on par it's forced to run Adamant to have access to Extreme Speed. Good pokemon, but tons of competition for its team slot.

Empoleon is a sorta unique 'mon, and sort of a jack-of-all-trades. The specially defensive set is great but desperately wants recovery; offensive sets (Choice Specs and Agility) are surprising but usually outclassed. He obviously fits on much different teams than Starmie and Donphan do but I think they're the best possible things in the B-ranks to compare him to, and I'd put him just barely below them.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I really don't agree with anyone like you canasian who says running Adamant on Entei is that bad since you are still obviously outspeeding all the defensive threats in UU and you lose out on only Timid Roserade which is the only real significant thing. Yeah things like Jolly Luke exist but are exceedingly rare and there are a few things you would outspeed with Jolly like pre megaevolved Houndoom but you're hitting that with Extremespeed anyways. The extra power Adamant gives is for sure useful though a stronger Extremespeed means a better revenge killer and you're getting so much higher chances of getting important KOs such as on Nidoqueen.

 

[Jacks0n]

Entei should at least be B+. It is the only physically offensive fire type in the tier who's powerful stab has no drawbacks, infernape and darm have recoil and Victini has stat drops. It cripples all switch ins with a burn making it harder for its checks to switch in. It also has extreme speed which let's it clean offensive teams so well late game. (Always run adamant)

 

[dingbat]

Well I said I was gonna be gone for two weeks except I have wifi for today so woo! ^.^ Except I'm still on my phone so no mini sprites I guess :(

Anyways, Entei should drop to B rank. Although it does not hit damn well near as hard as Victini or Darmanitan, it still has some unique moves that allow it to differentiate from these other physical fire-type attackers. Having the ability to do solid damage with its STAB while having 47.5% chance to burn the opponent (factoring miss chance) alone is something other offensive Fire-types truly wish they could have, although like Darmanitan, it still has a really shitty time breaking through the bulky waters in this tier, something that will always hold Entei back considerably.

On that note, I agree with grassycow that Darmanitan should probably drop to B+ rank since IMO it's just outperformed a bit by many of the other Scarfers in this tier atm and Victini as a wallbreaker due to its inability to reliably deal with the bulky waters in this tier at the moment.

 

[Bouff]

grassycow i don't really agree with you saying that Sacred Fire has no drawbacks; while it isn't as exactly evident as Darmanitan, Victini, and Infernape's physical STAB moves, as its general spammability of Sacred Fire can sometimes be a liability considering that it only has 8 PP, like Shaymin, and in this case it's even worse than Shaymin in terms of comparison due to the fact that, while it doesn't have as bad of a miss chance, it has FAR more common switchins such as Swampert and Slowbro, and, worst of them all, Suicune who doesnt give two fucks about burn due to Rest and takes advantage of SF's spammability with Pressure, forcing Entei to play much more carefully should it want to conserve Sacred Fire's PP. This also kinda forces it to run Flare Blitz in its last slot, which actually does have a direct drawback lol. (not that there are much better options, but still). I think it's fine in B.


will edit later on empoleon

 

[Jacks0n]

grassycow i don't really agree with you saying that Sacred Fire has no drawbacks; while it isn't as exactly evident as Darmanitan, Victini, and Infernape's physical STAB moves, as its general spammability of Sacred Fire can sometimes be a liability considering that it only has 8 PP, like Shaymin, and in this case it's even worse than Shaymin in terms of comparison due to the fact that, while it doesn't have as bad of a miss chance, it has FAR more common switchins such as Swampert and Slowbro, and, worst of them all, Suicune who doesnt give two fucks about burn due to Rest and takes advantage of SF's spammability with Pressure, forcing Entei to play much more carefully should it want to conserve Sacred Fire's PP. This also kinda forces it to run Flare Blitz in its last slot, which actually does have a direct drawback lol. (not that there are much better options, but still). I think it's fine in B.


will edit later on empoleon

Yeh fair enough

 

[Mahmudkipz]

I disagree that Entei's STAB has no drawback. Its precious 8 pp plus that fact that its strongest counter in Suicune has Pressure and can Rest off the burns. It also has 5% chance to miss. Entei also has the problem of relying on the 50% burn which means half of the time it fails to do its job of spreading burns. Its movepool is absolute arse with no way of bypassing any of its hard checks and counters, and unlike other Fire types it doesn't even have U-turn to preserve momentum.

Edit: ninja'd

 

[Limitless]

Entei is moving down to B rank, while Empoleon is staying at B+ rank. I could see Empoleon moving up to A- rank, though.

The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Froslass and Gastradon.