Tier Shift

[thdhted]

alrighty, i have a new mon for everyone to look at:

this guy is a MONSTER. with sp. def investment he can tank hits, set up curse or two and proceed to sweep.

here' a replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-142964091

 

[Procne]

...this guy is a MONSTER. with sp. def investment he can tank hits, set up curse or two and proceed to sweep.

I agree, thdhted. Curse is great, but for that needed Sp.Def boost, I recommend Assault Vest with PuP/Drain Punch/Stone Edge/EQ or Filler.

 

[thdhted]

I agree, thdhted. Curse is great, but for that needed Sp.Def boost, I recommend Assault Vest with PuP/Drain Punch/Stone Edge/EQ or Filler.

I actually prefer the curse set thanks to its defense increases. Even with the assvest regirock still wants to take physical hits better. I actually tried using an assault vest on him, but was sorely disappointed with it as regirock took special hits pretty well, but I still kept taking physical hits and not doing enough damage. Regice, however, I have found to be a great special tank with the assault vest. Thanks to that massive sp. Def and access to boltbeam, regice is a great vest wearer if you have hazard removal/deterents

 

[WaterBomb]

I would also like to point out Unburden Belly Drum Slurpuff. I can't seem to find the replay of it, but I scored a sweep with it. Once those pesky Steels are gone it rips through almost everything else.

Also, has anyone used Basculin to any reasonable success? Seems like it would be excellent with 107 base Attack, 113 base Speed and Adaptability.

 

[thdhted]

I would also like to point out Unburden Belly Drum Slurpuff. I can't seem to find the replay of it, but I scored a sweep with it. Once those pesky Steels are gone it rips through almost everything else.

Also, has anyone used Basculin to any reasonable success? Seems like it would be excellent with 107 base Attack, 113 base Speed and Adaptability.

basculin is not really all that great, especially since its best coverage option is crunch. While adaptability hurts a lot, grass/water types can hard wall it.

 

[eriados]

Now that the ladder has had time to settle down, I think it would be good to see if anyone wants to bring up potential bans. Try to include replays that support your reasoning, if possible.

 

[megacrazyhand]

Now that the ladder has had time to settle down, I think it would be good to see if anyone wants to bring up potential bans. Try to include replays that support your reasoning, if possible.

While I don't have any in specific to bring up, it may be good to generate discussion around Rain. Most people agree that it is one of the better play styles in the meta as most of the rain abusers are in RU or NU providing them with a ten or fifteen point increase. While I'll be honest in saying I'm not sure who in a standard rain team is worthy of suspect per say, I can say that I have seen every other weather pale in comparison to rain in the tier and that if we were to ban something from a rain team we might be able to bring more weather diversity to the table.

 

[xJownage]

While I don't have any in specific to bring up, it may be good to generate discussion around Rain. Most people agree that it is one of the better play styles in the meta as most of the rain abusers are in RU or NU providing them with a ten or fifteen point increase. While I'll be honest in saying I'm not sure who in a standard rain team is worthy of suspect per say, I can say that I have seen every other weather pale in comparison to rain in the tier and that if we were to ban something from a rain team we might be able to bring more weather diversity to the table.

I disagree. Its not that rain itself has broken pokemon, its that sun teams and sand teams often have set checks that beat those teams better then those for rain. Rain is such a diverse strategy that it allows many sweepers to get past normal rain team counters, allowing the teams to breach those checks and not have to worry about it on a different sweeper after resetting rain. Sand doesn't have as much of this, and neither does sun, especially since sun requires both significant hazard support and a really good counter to talonflame since all the chlorophyll users are weak to it. In sand, there just isin't enough diversity in sand rush sweepers, really only stoutland and excadrill, and the only two setters are hippowdon and t-tar, with exca and the latter two sharing many similar weaknesses.

 

[DarkSlay]

Hi all! Really enjoying Tier Shift at the moment and would like to share some pretty cool Pokemon / sets that I've found to be very useful in this tier. I've managed to get to the #9 spot with some of these guys, so please enjoy!


Gigalith @ Assault Vest
TS: 100/150/145/75/95/40
Ability: Sand Force
Nature: Adamant
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Moveset:
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Explosion

A lot of people will look at this set and go "Regirock does it better" due to a higher SpD stat and higher natural Defense stat, but there's quite a few things going for Gigalith that Regirock can't quite keep up with. First off, that massive Attack stat of Base 150 allows it to hit really, really hard. Unlike Regirock, who struggles to deal damage with an Assault Vest on, Gigalith 2HKO's most non-resists (besides Alomomola) with Stone Edge. Furthermore, with additional Sand support, Gigalith has both its Special Defense increased even further AND gainst an awesome Sand Force boost for most of its attacks. This essentially gives it a free Life Orb boost in addition to a second Assault Vest. EdgeQuake is still very strong, and Iron Head gives it additional support against Fairies plus a reliable attack for picking off weakened foes. After KO'ing or crippling Pokemon throughout the match, at low health it can Explode and take out an opposing Pokemon as it goes down. Usually nets me two KO's per match on average, and a minimum of one KO. Fantastic Pokemon against offensive teams.


Sigilyph @ Flame Orb
TS: 87/73/95/118/95/112
Ability: Magic Guard
Nature: Bold
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Moveset:
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock / Stored Power
- Psycho Shift
- Roost

Thanks to Magic Guard, Sigilyph is probably the tier's best answer to the Stall teams running around. Sigilyph absolutely rips through standard Alomomola / Amoonguss / Chansey cores and doesn't really care about anything else Stall throws at it. Avalugg is probably the best answer, but after a Burn Avalanche fails to 2HKO and Sigilyph can Roost off damage easily. Furthermore, Sigilyph is just a great all-around answer to powerful Special Attackers as well. Probably one of the best Pokemon in the tier overall, just has all the right attributes to cause a lot of issues for multiple team archetypes. The decision between Psyshock and Stored Power is a big one, as one offers immediate power while the other one has higher potential overall plus hits resists for more damage. Max Defense investment is needed to set up on physical threats, especially since Calm Mind naturally deals with its SpD.


Tangrowth @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
TS: 110/110/135/120/60/60
Ability: Regenerator
Nature: Relaxed
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Moveset:
- Sleep Powder / Stun Spore
- Knock Off
- Power Whip / Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb / Earthquake

Tangrowth has some competition with Amoonguss, which has access to Spore and has greater Special Defense, but Tangrowth's great mixed attacking stats, superior Defense, Grass mono-typing and unique movepool gives it some different uses that its mushroom brethren. Monjombo! makes his return in Tier Shift with a stronger Knock Off and strong Grass STAB in a tier with strong Water-types running around. It's a great glue for teams that also acts as a wonderful support Pokemon, crippling Pokemon through status and item removal. Regenerator ensures that it's going to last a long time throughout the match.

 

[Eminegg]

Dunno if this got a mention but...

Samurott gets (110 / 115 / 100 / 123 / 85 / 85) which means Focus Sash sets would be viable. Meh, if it only got Agility, it'd be like the best Rain sweeper. It's Special Attack stat easily surpasses that of Politoed, which means it can even run a Scarf set which will only get outsped by Scarfers and the damage dealt in Rain would be incredibly high, and with mediocre bulk, if it gets hit by a 2HKO, it can deal even more damage if a Water move is used, and along with the STAB + Rain boost, it is too good.

Thoughts? A Specs set would indeed work but it'll only be able to revenge kill once that way, thanks to the huge variety of fast sweepers already crawling in the meta. Obviously, thanks to an above-par 115 Attack stat it can also work out a mix set with coverage moves in Air Slash (yes), Hydro Pump (or Surf), Megahorn (or X-Scissor), Knock Off (yay) or heck even Iron Tail! Yes, some of the moves have less accuracy, but it still works as good and even better as Politoed, except for the insane (compared to this) Special Defense.

Moar NU monsters

Regigigas (125 / 87.5 / 125 / 105 / 125 / 62.5) gets a really good 125/125/125 bulk and a Specs set would be actually viable here (Sweep will be happy!) unless you're going to have a Subset with Drain Punch and Knock Off plus either a STAB or coverage move in Earthquake or Fire Punch.

Mismagius (75 / 75 / 75 / 120 / 120 / 120) Assault Vest all-out Special Attacker? Leggo! Fastest non-Prankster Will-O-Wisp and Toxic? Leggo! And with Substitute in it's awesome movepool, you can say it is so very good with 120 Speed and can avoid every non-Prankster status inflicting move for itself! Along with that, if it's an offensive set, Calm Mind is a huge help, only adding to the 120 base Special stats of it.

Rampardos (112 / 180 / 75 / 80 / 65 / 73) is now an even better wallbreaker with Scarf, though there are too many Speedy monsters running around nowadays... oh well, we can still work out a revenge-killer Sash set with Head Smash... right? Yeah! STAB with 180 base Attack stat plus the move itself is so strong, it'll always be a possible 2HKO! It even gets Mold Breaker, so bye-bye Sturdies! Rampy is here!

Edit: OH GOD IF ONLY SHELL ARMOR WAS RELEASED UGH! Though at least it can hit with even more power when in red HP. :V

 

[Throbulator36]

Edit: OH GOD IF ONLY SHELL ARMOR WAS RELEASED UGH! Though at least it can hit with even more power when in red HP. :V

Shell armor only blocks critical hits against the user

 

[Eminegg]

Shell armor only blocks critical hits against the user

By "it" I meant Samurott, and it can hit with even more power when in red HP if having Torrent. Shell Armor would work better, possibly, as you can live almost any non-Banded/Specs attack.

 

[Throbulator36]

By "it" I meant Samurott, and it can hit with even more power when in red HP if having Torrent. Shell Armor would work better, possibly, as you can live almost any non-Banded/Specs attack.

I know you meant samurott. Torrent is a better ability than shell armor tho

 

[nu nu X]

There should be boosts for LC mons I've used Clamperl in NU and it absolutely demolishes

 

[Uselesscrab]

There should be boosts for LC mons I've used Clamperl in NU and it absolutely demolishes

They get +15, I'm pretty sure.

 

[thdhted]

There should be boosts for LC mons I've used Clamperl in NU and it absolutely demolishes

clamperl isn't really all that amazing. See carracosta for further reference.

 

[xJownage]

Thoughts on tier. Sorry if mentioned before:

Mega aerodactyl has base 140 attack with base 155 speed, with access to stealth rock and some high powered moves to give it good utility overall. It also has some bulk (!) and can occasionally tank some hits.

Diggersby goes up to a much more usable 83 speed tier, with a much higher 61 base attack. Diggersby takes advantage of it well and double boosting sets or just plain single boosting sets are as good as ever.

Mega heracross has the same Attack stat as MM2X. Its a lot. 85/120/110 bulk is a lot as well. With those high power stabs and that sky high attack stat, this will be a force against the many stallier teams that will roam this metagame.

Choice Band Entei can spam sacred fire like never before in this tier, it loves to come in and burn everything while still hitting extremely hard. Burning the opponents wall to fire types is a great way to clear the way for a sweeper.

Having a solid scarfer will be more important than ever. Stuff like scarf diggersby will be great options in this meta and it would be wise to pack a scarf or maybe even 2 on EVERY team.

Hydreigon is a good mixed attacker with 110/130/103 attack stats. It can run great wallbreaking life orb sets, or just run a flat out choice specs, and be a very good poke in this meta filled with bulky tanks (97/95/95 bulk is also good)

Sash Rocks infernape is actually really good here, looking at that 109/109/113 mixed attacking stats. A set like Overheat / CC / SR / Mach Punch would be a good lead for hyper offensive teams.

Noivern is a pokemon I am taking special interest in, having access to the 128 speed tier and a very good 103 special attack, this can run a viable choice specs set for ripping apart offensive teams. The main difference here, however, is switcheroo, allowing it to cripple a key member of a defensive core.

Shuckle having 30 HP makes a lot of difference for its bulk, and that bulk increase could be very useful for it setting sticky web on certain teams.

Kyurem will be a threat with those mixed attacking stats and decent speed tier. Its hang up in the past has been the lack of higher speed and its inability to score important KOs in the upper tiers, but both of those are patched in this meta so....

Defiant Tornadus Anyone? It will be tough to use, but it is usable.

Cincinno sparks my interest with base 105 attack and skill link. Its high speed makes a banded set pretty good, especially against pokes that like to sub up.

HUSTLE DURRRRAANNNTTTTTT. Really this thing could be a threat. A fast band or LO set could be great as a wallbreaker, and hone claws sets can rip stallish teams to shreds.

Choice Specs Jolteon is viable again. Base 140 speed tier is great, and slapping a specs on that base 120 SPA can make for a nice pivot.

Electivire has base 138 attack and is something that could be toyed around with, it has nice coverage and utility, and in this meta, decent bulk as well.

Will theorymon some more later. May edit this post if i see stuff already posted.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

Thoughts on tier. Sorry if mentioned before:

mega medicham now has base 105 attack with a much improved 105 speed tier. Its not game breaking, but its definitely worth noting.

Mega aerodactyl has base 140 attack with base 155 speed, and it has access to swords dance. This could be a nice SD sweeper with its improved bulk and great attack after a swords dance. I am interested to see what happens here.

Both of these are false. Mega Medicham is OU despite being shown as BL in the teambuilder because Medicham is OU. And unless I missed a recent event, Aero can't learn SD.

 

[xJownage]

Both of these are false. Mega Medicham is OU despite being shown as BL in the teambuilder because Medicham is OU. And unless I missed a recent event, Aero can't learn SD.

Sorry, fucked that up. And i thought it could learn SD but maybe i just confused myself. w/e. Fixed in the post.

 

[insanelegend]

Avalugg is so great in this meta. His bulk is unbeliable reaching almost 200 defense ( 199 ) backed up by 110 HP. Here are some calcs using its new stats:

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 272-320 (64.1 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 204-242 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Avalugg does more damage to Mega-Lucario than the physical set does to it

252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 168-198 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 378-446 (125.1 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega-Aerodactyl can't even do half in Tier Shift

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP/ 252+ Def Avalugg: 198-234 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 84-99 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
OK, Durant wins this one. But you get the idea.

Some pokemon I find useful:
Zangoose: STAB Facade coming off of 130 attack hurts a lot, especially when Toxic Boost is activated. Close Combat and Knock Off round off coverage and and give it other options.
Sigilyph: How I beat noobs. Simply Cosmic Power until they can't touch you, and proceed to sweep with Stored Power. Of course, most good players should be able to counter Sigilyph with moves like Trick or Taunt, or simply hitting it hard before it sets up.
Shedinja: Is given actual HP. Now does not die to entry hazards, and can set up Subs. It is weak offensively before set-up though and can still be Pursuit trapped.
Alomola: Although I prefer Avalugg, this is the physical wall of choice for about 90% of good players. Wish passing from 175 HP does a lot, and Regenerator is a great ability. Water is also a very good defensive typing.

 

[nu nu X]

clamperl isn't really all that amazing. See carracosta for further reference.

I don't think you've seen what clamperl can do

 

[insanelegend]

It can get walled by Shedinja, die on any decent hit, and take a turn to set-up before being effective, while the setting up leaves it weaker to priority

 

[insanelegend]

Here is a battle I had with Rumors for the OMPL. Avalugg and Hippowdon make a great physical core. Avalugg > Alomola for using Mirror Coat

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-147985329

 

[Gerard]

Here is a battle I had with Rumors for the OMPL. Avalugg and Hippowdon make a great physical core. Avalugg > Alomola for using Mirror Coat

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-147985329

Alomolola can also use Mirror Coat

 

[xJownage]

Alomolola can also use Mirror Coat

(facepalm)

Avalugg outclasses Alomolola for using mirror coat. when somebody says ___>___ it means that one is better.