np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[SoulRed12]

This is the 50/50 situation other users warned about - other Pokemon can set this up too, but with no other Pokemon is the consequence of predicting wrong so dangerous.

Not sure how you can really say that. Mispredictions are mispredictions, and their being dangerous isn't just a factor of it being that it's vs. Aegis in the least. Predicting Garchomp to go EQ when it ends up going Outrage is a huge problem if you switch to something that doesn't resist dragon and it ends up going for Outrage. Which, incidentally, is stronger than Aegislash's Shadow Ball:

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

And that's another point - other things like Garchomp can fire off base 100 or even base 120 STAB moves, while Aegislash is forced to deal with a base 80 move or even base 40 for the physical KS+SD sets. (Yet another important difference is that super low speed, meaning Aegis doesn't get to clean up switch-ins before they can move like MegaKhan could. Yes, he's got SS, but it's fairly weak especially coming from the mixed set.)

To make a more analogous situation, using sucker punch on anything because you predicted it to attack when they actually end up going substitute is also disastrous.

Quite frankly, the risks of misreading your opponent are almost always big especially when playing vs. offense, I don't see how they are so much bigger with Aegislash to make mid-game decisions involving him so fundamentally different from such decisions involving any other pokemon that they could actually make a pokemon deserve a ban.

Again, overpoweredness is another issue altogether; although I don't really think he's overpowered, I definitely think he's perhaps just under the line. But this 50/50 stuff is nonsense.

 

[CyclicCompound]

So if I can reach reqs by the 26th, I will be voting to ban Aegislash.

Aegislash is just... unhealthy. There's really no other way I can put it that really expresses the ultimate reason why I decided to support banning it. It's not "broken" because of any pseudo-720 bst crap, it's not "too spammable" because Shadow Ball has more than enough switch-ins, and I don't think versatility is ever enough on its own to justify banning something. Rather, the biggest ban perspective I've seen that from is the fact that as an OU QC member who has tested out many, many sets, one of the most common phrases I have read, seen, and lived by is "x needs to be running y or else it could lose to Aegislash."

Does anyone really want to be running Earthquake on Mega Pinsir? Or Earthquake on Terrakion? Or Knock Off on Conkeldurr? Or even Earthquake on Dragonite? These are all great examples of moves that are run on certain Pokemon primarily just for Aegislash. Mega Pinsir would rather run Close Combat to threaten Ferrothorn and Skarmory more. Terrakion would rather run another Rock-type STAB or a setup move or Stealth Rock, depending on what it lacks. Conkeldurr would probably prefer Stone Edge to nail Pokemon like Talonflame on the switch, or Poison Jab to hit Fairy-types. Dragonite would prefer Fire Punch to hit Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Mega Scizor, as Heatran is much less of an issue than those three combined. All of those moves, however, are near off-limits for all of them because Aegislash exists. It is the effect of a single Pokemon. That's not healthy.

That's one of my biggest arguments against Aegislash, and I completely support the 50-50 arguments as well posted by Jukain a few pages back as it ties in well to this. There are many, many, MANY more Pokemon out there who do have moves that can be used against Aegislash, but that will trigger a King's Shield drop (such as Mega Charizard X's Flare Blitz), but if it uses its other option (such as Mega Charizard X's Dragon Dance), it has the potential to be attacked and possibly KO'd depending on its health. To echo Jukain, that's a very different 50-50 than something like Pursuit trapping, as the factors involved (-2 attack drop, the use of weaker coverage moves to get past it, the fact that it has a 50% chance of working twice) make it a lot riskier and overall something that can really let pure chance dictate the flow of a battle. Overall I think it's best for OU to have Aegislash gone. The removal of such ugly 50-50s (more like 33-33-33s or 25-25-25-25s) and the expansive freedom it gives to other Pokemon's movesets and teambuilding completely justify it.

 

[Sun King]

Sure, some people might care, but the bottom line is that its not relevant. Under the rules of our suspect testing, we don't keep something in a tier because things might change if we ban it...its ridiculous. Sure, at the end of the day, people can choose to vote on what meta they like better, ignoring arguments on both sides, but we trust these people to weigh up both sides before making a decision. I don't quite get your actual post on this, because it seems to be like you are 100% sure people are going to use this logic to vote...and so what? Do you want us to do away with suspect testing altogether? On the subject at hand, alexwolf knows we don't use that logic for suspect testing (It took me all of 10 seconds to check with Haunter), hence I called him out because I know he can give much better anti ban arguments, that are relevant to the suspect test at hand.

In regards to your final paragraph, again, how is this relevant? If these wallbreakers are "that bad" as you claim, we simply get rid of them, if they are not "that bad", then by extension stall should be good, simply because if it was getting utterly trashed by these pokemon, understandably we would take a closer look at these wallbreakers. Sure, some people hate facing stall and all of that, but the team style has been very successful both on the ladder and in tourneys...and I doubt there is some kind of vendetta against stall that would prevent us suspect testing certain wallbreakers if they got too strong.

I think you're reading too much into what I'm saying. I'm saying it shouldn't be irrelevant to consider the consequences of what we choose to do. If I came across as assuming 100% of people would do anything, that was surely never my intention. I have, however, seen plenty of people post about the same topic, and I believe that they will likely take that logic into consideration when voting. And are those wallbreakers "that bad"? At the moment, they're all over the suspect ladder (or the 12 different people I've played over and over). Yes, that can be attributed to excitement that they don't have Aegislash to check them. Obviously the meta will settle down if we give it more time. But by and large, yes, those wallbreakers are a large concern for stall teams.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

And are those wallbreakers "that bad"? At the moment, they're all over the suspect ladder (or the 12 different people I've played over and over). Yes, that can be attributed to excitement that they don't have Aegislash to check them. Obviously the meta will settle down if we give it more time. But by and large, yes, those wallbreakers are a large concern for stall teams.

People are running them on the suspect ladder cause they want to see what they're like when their best counter is gone. Eventually people will realize that their match-up against offense is ass and you're really better off using zard/maw/t-tar/gyar/scizor/pinsir/venu; things that don't utterly tear stall apart, but actually have a good level of efficacy against opposing offensive teams. Plus it's not like there isn't ways of handling them for stall.

btw this is the first thread I have heard anyone, at all, say that Cham/Garde/Hera are broken or even that they could potentially be broken; hell I've heard people say none of them are even worth using cause the competition they receive from other megas is just so harsh. Aegis' ban would only mean that they could become more common... and if people seriously think they're a problem they can be suspected.

 

[InfinityX000]

So if I can reach reqs by the 26th, I will be voting to ban Aegislash.

Aegislash is just... unhealthy. There's really no other way I can put it that really expresses the ultimate reason why I decided to support banning it. It's not "broken" because of any pseudo-720 bst crap, it's not "too spammable" because Shadow Ball has more than enough switch-ins, and I don't think versatility is ever enough on its own to justify banning something. Rather, the biggest ban perspective I've seen that from is the fact that as an OU QC member who has tested out many, many sets, one of the most common phrases I have read, seen, and lived by is "x needs to be running y or else it could lose to Aegislash."

Does anyone really want to be running Earthquake on Mega Pinsir? Or Earthquake on Terrakion? Or Knock Off on Conkeldurr? Or even Earthquake on Dragonite? These are all great examples of moves that are run on certain Pokemon primarily just for Aegislash. Mega Pinsir would rather run Close Combat to threaten Ferrothorn and Skarmory more. Terrakion would rather run another Rock-type STAB or a setup move or Stealth Rock, depending on what it lacks. Conkeldurr would probably prefer Stone Edge to nail Pokemon like Talonflame on the switch, or Poison Jab to hit Fairy-types. Dragonite would prefer Fire Punch to hit Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Mega Scizor, as Heatran is much less of an issue than those three combined. All of those moves, however, are near off-limits for all of them because Aegislash exists. It is the effect of a single Pokemon. That's not healthy.

That's one of my biggest arguments against Aegislash, and I completely support the 50-50 arguments as well posted by Jukain a few pages back as it ties in well to this. There are many, many, MANY more Pokemon out there who do have moves that can be used against Aegislash, but that will trigger a King's Shield drop (such as Mega Charizard X's Flare Blitz), but if it uses its other option (such as Mega Charizard X's Dragon Dance), it has the potential to be attacked and possibly KO'd depending on its health. To echo Jukain, that's a very different 50-50 than something like Pursuit trapping, as the factors involved (-2 attack drop, the use of weaker coverage moves to get past it, the fact that it has a 50% chance of working twice) make it a lot riskier and overall something that can really let pure chance dictate the flow of a battle. Overall I think it's best for OU to have Aegislash gone. The removal of such ugly 50-50s (more like 33-33-33s or 25-25-25-25s) and the expansive freedom it gives to other Pokemon's movesets and teambuilding completely justify it.

Does anybody want to run Rapid Spin on Excadrill? No, but they just do. And earthquake is good coverage anyway. And the 50/50s are 50/25s or even 50/0s many times.

The Aegislash user can exploit it, too. You can switch out on a predicted King's Shield, but if your opponent sees this coming you could be hit with a Shadow Ball from a base 150 Special Attack. This is the 50/50 situation other users warned about.

And it has a bigger impact on the metagame than you think, at least if you consider how many people ITT are terrified of Medicham and Gardevoir.

Shadow Ball has its switch ins. Bisharp, a good check, can switch in either way and be marginally safe.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 107-126 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 632-743 (195 - 229.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 764-899 (235.8 - 277.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And so are some other Dark checks. And some just will survive.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 183-216 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 566-668 (174.6 - 206.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And EQ doesnt make contact.

As far as the impact goes, some people here haven't even tried. Just keep a strong check like Bisharp ready, and maybe something for switch-ins, maybe some fodder. And if you can determine the set, you can switch well. An appropriate wall, especially with Will-O-Wisp, can switch in and cripple/force out aegis.

 

[Toljik]

Does anybody want to run Rapid Spin on Excadrill? No, but they just do. And earthquake is good coverage anyway. And the 50/50s are 50/25s or even 50/0s many times.


Shadow Ball has its switch ins. Bisharp, a good check, can switch in either way and be marginally safe.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 107-126 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 632-743 (195 - 229.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 764-899 (235.8 - 277.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And so are some other Dark checks. And some just will survive.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 183-216 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 566-668 (174.6 - 206.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And EQ doesnt make contact.

As far as the impact goes, some people here haven't even tried. Just keep a strong check like Bisharp ready, and maybe something for switch-ins, maybe some fodder. And if you can determine the set, you can switch well. An appropriate wall, especially with Will-O-Wisp, can switch in and cripple/force out aegis.

Shadow Ball was just an example of what Aegislash can do to opponents who try to play around King's Shield. Substitute it for Sacred Sword/Flash Cannon/Head Smash/Swords Dance/False Swipe/Cut where appropriate.

Also, how is Garchomp going to hit Blade Form Aegislash after it uses Shadow Ball?

SoulRed12: You're right. I removed that part of my post a few minutes afterwards, because I cannot say that for sure.

 

[InfinityX000]

Shadow Ball was just an example of what Aegislash can do to opponents who try to play around King's Shield. Substitute it for Sacred Sword/Flash Cannon/Head Smash/False Swipe/Cut where appropriate.

Also, how is Garchomp going to hit Blade Form Aegislash after it uses Shadow Ball?

My point was that it relies on KS even to do that. here are the calcs in shield form:
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
which is still very dangerous and a random shadow sneak/sucker punch can finish it off.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Cripple/OHKO.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
same as garchomp EQ, very dangerous still. And unless previously damaged, Bish won't need prio.

 

[CyclicCompound]

Does anybody want to run Rapid Spin on Excadrill? No, but they just do.

Running Rapid Spin on Excadrill is completely irrelevant; by bringing it up, you are implying that Stealth Rock, like Aegislash, is something that should be suspected. It's off-topic and only promotes argument on an extremely volatile issue that could drastically change the metagame. Please leave it out of this discussion, it will only derail it.

To answer the part about "No, but they just do," the entire point is that on a frighteningly wide scale, Pokemon are forced to run subpar coverage moves in order to hit Aegislash and really Aegislash alone. Rapid Spin is not a subpar coverage move, it is a necessity. I have already elaborated why the Pokemon in my post would rather run over coverage moves, and the fact is that this is a metagame-wide trend that has in my opinion deteriorated the quality of the metagame through overcentralization. Even if it's mainly through the moves Pokemon can run, the fact that a single threat has forced an entire tier to adapt to it and adopt otherwise worse sets is a clear indicator that Aegislash should go for the sake of a better metagame.

 

[Toljik]

My point was that it relies on KS even to do that. here are the calcs in shield form:
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
which is still very dangerous and a random shadow sneak/sucker punch can finish it off.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Cripple/OHKO.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
same as garchomp EQ, very dangerous still. And unless previously damaged, Bish won't need prio.

Aegislash can KO them back with the right coverage moves. A battle between Aegislash and two of its best checks could end up a tie. That's a bit ridiculous even for an S-rank Pokemon.

EDIT:

I understand the off-topic thing. I was just comparing. But earthquake is in no way bad. Neither is fire blast.

His point was that neither move is bad in general, but on several prominent Pokemon it's a suboptimal move that hits nothing but Aegislash.

 

[InfinityX000]

Running Rapid Spin on Excadrill is completely irrelevant; by bringing it up, you are implying that Stealth Rock, like Aegislash, is something that should be suspected. It's off-topic and only promotes argument on an extremely volatile issue that could drastically change the metagame. Please leave it out of this discussion, it will only derail it.

To answer the part about "No, but they just do," the entire point is that on a frighteningly wide scale, Pokemon are forced to run subpar coverage moves in order to hit Aegislash and really Aegislash alone. Rapid Spin is not a subpar coverage move, it is a necessity. I have already elaborated why the Pokemon in my post would rather run over coverage moves, and the fact is that this is a metagame-wide trend that has in my opinion deteriorated the quality of the metagame through overcentralization. Even if it's mainly through the moves Pokemon can run, the fact that a single threat has forced an entire tier to adapt to it and adopt otherwise worse sets is a clear indicator that Aegislash should go for the sake of a better metagame.

I understand the off-topic thing. I was just comparing. But earthquake is in no way bad. Neither is fire blast. And as for the rest, that is an opinion and I respect that. I have already said what I must about that.

 

[Sun King]

People are running them on the suspect ladder cause they want to see what they're like when their best counter is gone. Eventually people will realize that their match-up against offense is ass and you're really better off using zard/maw/t-tar/gyar/scizor/pinsir/venu; things that don't utterly tear stall apart, but actually have a good level of efficacy against opposing offensive teams. Plus it's not like there isn't ways of handling them for stall.

btw this is the first thread I have heard anyone, at all, say that Cham/Garde/Hera are broken or even that they could potentially be broken; hell I've heard people say none of them are even worth using cause the competition they receive from other megas is just so harsh. Aegis' ban would only mean that they could become more common... and if people seriously think they're a problem they can be suspected.

Right, that's what I was saying. And I never said those wallbreakers are impossible to deal with. I said they are a significant concern to stall teams.

 

[Adrian Marin]

These "50-50" arguments are heavily biased and are really not a good reason to ban Aegislash. Stall teams don't have 50-50 issues against Aegislash, most offensive teams do. Based on this logic, Gothitelle should be banned since it causes 50-50's against stall teams (hell, the odds are almost always on goth's favor.) The only valid reason why Aegislash should be banned is overcentralization. Also, if Aegislash does get banned, we're going to need a lot more suspect tests. My prime concern is that Mega Medicham will probably now use Thunderpunch, removing its counters to nil. Not that what happens after the suspect is relevant of course.

 

[Baharoth]

Does anyone really want to be running Earthquake on Mega Pinsir? Or Earthquake on Terrakion? Or Knock Off on Conkeldurr? Or even Earthquake on Dragonite?

I give you Pinsir but the rest is hardly an issue. Terrakion usually has 2 free moveslots since his stab coverage is already amazing, its actually quite difficult to find proper moves for the other 2 slots resulting in stuff like Quick Attack/X-Scissor beeing commonly used on it, moves that have little to no benefit and it still has room for EQ on those sets. If theres a pokemon out there that has more moveslots than it needs its Terrakion.

Conkeldurr on that list must be a joke right? Knock Off is the most spamable move in the game and a no-brainer on basicly every mon that gets it unless there are other REALY important moves that have to be picked over it, Conk will run Knock Off with or without Aegi.

And EQ on things like Dragonite or Tyranitar will be a perfectly viable choice even with Aegi gone. Dragonite basicly has to choose between beeing countered by Heatran or Skarmory depending on whether he goes for EQ or Fire Punch, thats not gonna change with Aegis bann and more or less the same is true for ttar, Fire Punch has less base power and no real benefit aside from hitting Skarmory and Ferro/Scizor harder, in fact any ttar that wants to run fire coverage will choose Fire Blast most of the time anyway, so here again Aegis presence doesnt matter at all.

And seriously, pick your poison is a common issue for so many mons as only very few mons can hit everything they want with 4 moves. Its always been a decision you had to make while building a team and its never been a problem. But now that one of these poisons is called Aegislash its becoming a reason for a bann all of a sudden?

 

[ginganinja]

I'm saying it shouldn't be irrelevant to consider the consequences of what we choose to do.

Of course you can, no-one is stopping you from doing so. The issue I take is you (or anyone) using it as justification for or against a ban, because you have no evidence to support that theory.

Case in point, immediatly after XY hit the stores, and the aspects of Defog were revealed, we were swamped with threads remarking it as the "end of stall". Despite this, stall has proven to be a very effective team style within the game. Speculation is 100% fine (so long as its on topic in this thread), but when you have people running around saying they will vote no ban because the metagame "might" turn more offensive...well thats an issue, because you are basing your vote on a possible future, rather than addressing the actual ban / anti ban arguments within this thread. Unless you have a superpower that entitles you to see the future...well then I would rather see arguments based on Aegislash in the current meta, rather than what a possible future metagame would look like, which is largely irrelevant.

If Aegislash is unhealthy for the current meta, then it will go, if its deemed healthy for the current meta, then it will stay. If the meta is still unhealthy after Aegislash goes, then we will fix that with further suspect testing. If the metagame is healthy but offence is more popular then this is acceptable. This is how the process works. As I said before, we don't keep a (possibly) unhealthy pokemon in the metagame as a limiting factor against a specific playstyle. This is not a factor unique to Aegislash, if Mega Medicham was suspected, I would not accept arguments asking us to keep it in the metagame because stall will be "better', it goes both ways.

 

[Rezileen]

So if I can reach reqs by the 26th, I will be voting to ban Aegislash.

Does anyone really want to be running Earthquake on Mega Pinsir? Or Earthquake on Terrakion? Or Knock Off on Conkeldurr? Or even Earthquake on Dragonite? These are all great examples of moves that are run on certain Pokemon primarily just for Aegislash.

This is not a post supporting or arguing against banning Aegislash, but I am curious how the argument you made is any different from the following cases:
- Mega Venusaur currently forces Keldeo to run the limited-use HP Flying and Landorus to run Psychic over a different coverage move such as Sludge Wave for Clefable or Focus Blast for other threats.
- Bisharp currently makes HP Fighting an attractive option on Lati@s, even though it hits nothing else but Bisharp.
- Heatran forces Mega Charizard X to consider Earthquake over Roost or Mega Gardevoir to consider HP Ground over say Taunt, Will-o-wisp, or Focus Blast.
- Tyranitar in previous generations (and even still now) caused many special attackers such as Alakazam and Gengar to run the low accuracy Focus Blast in fear of getting Pursuit-trapped.

The list could go on. Yet I do not think anybody would consider suspecting any of the above-mentioned Pokemon. What about Aegislash forcing certain Pokemon to run a less-than-optimal move makes it a worse offender than any of the above-mentioned Pokemon?

 

[Max Carvalho]

Eh, Earthquake on Terrakion also hits Mega Mawile which is a top tier threat nowadays as everybody knows. EDIT: Mega Manectric too tho it is much less a threat than Mawile ofc.

 

[Karxrida]

This is not a post supporting or arguing against banning Aegislash, but I am curious how the argument you made is any different from the following cases:
- Mega Venusaur currently forces Keldeo to run the limited-use HP Flying and Landorus to run Psychic over a different coverage move such as Sludge Wave for Clefable or Focus Blast for other threats.
- Bisharp currently makes HP Fighting an attractive option on Lati@s, even though it hits nothing else but Bisharp.
- Heatran forces Mega Charizard X to consider Earthquake over Roost or Mega Gardevoir to consider HP Ground over say Taunt, Will-o-wisp, or Focus Blast.
- Tyranitar in previous generations (and even still now) caused many special attackers such as Alakazam and Gengar to run the low accuracy Focus Blast in fear of getting Pursuit-trapped.

The list could go on. Yet I do not think anybody would consider suspecting any of the above-mentioned Pokemon. What about Aegislash forcing certain Pokemon to run a less-than-optimal move makes it a worse offender than any of the above-mentioned Pokemon?

- Keldeo has a kind of shit movepool anyway so its not like there's anything else for it to run. Lando's Earth Power hits Clefable hard enough anyway and Psychic lets it hit other Landos.
- HP Fighting also hits Tyranitar and Heatran.
- Charizard X can muscle past Heatran with boosted Dragon Claws if it wants to or just leaves it to a teammate.
- Focus Blast also gives Gengar perfect neutral coverage; people only hate running it because its accuracy is shit.

I agree that the whole "forces stuff to run Earthquake" thing is a bad argument since Earthquake is such a good move anyway, but I just had to point this out.

 

[Shirou Saberfox]

This is not a post supporting or arguing against banning Aegislash, but I am curious how the argument you made is any different from the following cases:
- Mega Venusaur currently forces Keldeo to run the limited-use HP Flying and Landorus to run Psychic over a different coverage move such as Sludge Wave for Clefable or Focus Blast for other threats.
- Bisharp currently makes HP Fighting an attractive option on Lati@s, even though it hits nothing else but Bisharp.
- Heatran forces Mega Charizard X to consider Earthquake over Roost or Mega Gardevoir to consider HP Ground over say Taunt, Will-o-wisp, or Focus Blast.
- Tyranitar in previous generations (and even still now) caused many special attackers such as Alakazam and Gengar to run the low accuracy Focus Blast in fear of getting Pursuit-trapped.

The list could go on. Yet I do not think anybody would consider suspecting any of the above-mentioned Pokemon. What about Aegislash forcing certain Pokemon to run a less-than-optimal move makes it a worse offender than any of the above-mentioned Pokemon?

I would have to say that there are plenty of effective checks for Venusaur, Clefable, Bisharp, Heatran and Tyranitar very very comfortably.

In Aegislash's case, there are are a few checks for Aegislash in comparison to the others mentioned, and they aren't as reliable as everyone else makes it out to be.

Thats just my opinion, however.

 

[Karxrida]

I would have to say that there are plenty of effective checks for Venusaur, Clefable, Bisharp, Heatran and Tyranitar very very comfortably.

In Aegislash's case, there are are a few checks for Aegislash in comparison to the others mentioned, and they aren't as reliable as everyone else makes it out to be.

Thats just my opinion, however.

Oh really?

Things that check the most common Aegislash (KS + 3 Attacks or SubToxic, Head Smash is stupid as fuck so don't bring it up), all from the OU Viability Ranking Thread
Landorus-I (OHKOs through Shield Form)
Thundurus-I (Defiant Variants)
Bisharp (can OHKO through Shield Form, counters SubToxic variants)
Clefable (can set up CM on those without Iron Head)
Excadrill (Life Orb OHKOs through Shield Form)
Garchomp (Earthquake always 2HKOs, LO Earthquake has a 56.3% chance to OHKO Shield Form)
Greninja (LO Hydro Pump can 2HKO before Shadow Ball can)
Keldeo (Specs Hydro Pump can 2HKO before Shadow Ball can, Scald burns cripple)
Charizard Y (counter as long as SR is gone, again because Head Smash is stupid)
Heatran (Lava Plume forces out due to possible burn, Roar deals with SubToxic)
Hippowdon (Whirlwind deals with SubToxic and can tank the hits from 3 Attacks)
Lando-T (Earthquake 2HKOs before Shadow Ball, Intimidate makes coverage less powerful)
Mandibuzz (counters anything but SubToxic, which it can still force out with Taunt)
Diggersby (Earthquake can OHKO through Shield form, guaranteed with Life Orb)
Gliscor (DGAF about SubToxic, can stall out with Roost, and Earthquake has a chance to 2HKO Shield Form even uninvested)
Mamoswine (Jolly Life Orb can OHKO Shield Form, while Adamant Life Orb WILL)
Amoonguss (counter, DGAF about anything and Foul Plays back)
Entei (Sacred Fire 2HKOs Shield Form before Shadow Ball 2HKOs, will OHKO with a Band)

Again, these all but 2 of those are S/A rank on the OU Viability Thread, so I wouldn't call them unreliable.

I should probably stop posting for a bit because I feel like I'm just repeating myself several times over, and I don't like being that guy who does that.

 

[Magnemite]

This is not a post supporting or arguing against banning Aegislash, but I am curious how the argument you made is any different from the following cases:
- Mega Venusaur currently forces Keldeo to run the limited-use HP Flying and Landorus to run Psychic over a different coverage move such as Sludge Wave for Clefable or Focus Blast for other threats.
- Bisharp currently makes HP Fighting an attractive option on Lati@s, even though it hits nothing else but Bisharp.
- Heatran forces Mega Charizard X to consider Earthquake over Roost or Mega Gardevoir to consider HP Ground over say Taunt, Will-o-wisp, or Focus Blast.
- Tyranitar in previous generations (and even still now) caused many special attackers such as Alakazam and Gengar to run the low accuracy Focus Blast in fear of getting Pursuit-trapped.

The list could go on. Yet I do not think anybody would consider suspecting any of the above-mentioned Pokemon. What about Aegislash forcing certain Pokemon to run a less-than-optimal move makes it a worse offender than any of the above-mentioned Pokemon?

Unlike Pokemon which rely on Earthquake to beat Aegislash, most of these Pokemon can run these coverage moves without sacrificing the ability to get past other important Pokemon or without hindering their overall effectiveness. Looking at each of your examples:

- Mega Venusaur currently forces Keldeo to run the limited-use HP Flying and Landorus to run Psychic over a different coverage move such as Sludge Wave for Clefable or Focus Blast for other threats.

As a wallbreaker, especially one that almost always uses Choice Specs, Keldeo will be spamming its STAB moves 99% of the time, thus making its other moveslots not matter very much, especially with its limited movepool. Running HP Flying just to hit a few pokemon does not hinder Keldeo's effectiveness against other threats, unlike EQ does with Pinsir, a Pokemon which is very reliant on its one coverage move to sweep.

- Bisharp currently makes HP Fighting an attractive option on Lati@s, even though it hits nothing else but Bisharp.

HP Fighting on these Pokemon is used as a lure, not as a standard coverage move. Furthermore, they do not need to run a fighting-type move just to be able to hit bisharp, as it takes a ton of damage from draco meteor.

Heatran forces Mega Charizard X to consider Earthquake over Roost or Mega Gardevoir to consider HP Ground over say Taunt, Will-o-wisp, or Focus Blast.

This is simply not true, Mega Charizard X rarely even runs EQ as roost is much better overall, and focus blast does exactly the same amount to heatran as hp ground (which it never even uses lol)

- Tyranitar in previous generations (and even still now) caused many special attackers such as Alakazam and Gengar to run the low accuracy Focus Blast in fear of getting Pursuit-trapped.

This is again untrue, they run Focus Blast because it gets the best neutral coverage with their STAB out of all their coverage options.

Really, despite the fact that the centralization argument is one of quite a few reasons that contribute to Aegislash being banworthy (and it's far from being the best one of these), the main point of this argument is that Aegislash forces many, many more Pokemon to run otherwise-subpar coverage options than any other Pokemon, which is very telling of its ridiculous negative impact on the tier. It is also very telling of the fact that Aegislash is incredibly centralizing because not having a coverage move to hit Aegislash is a much bigger detriment than not having a coverage move to hit any other Pokemon (in many cases it's multiple other pokemon), even if that / those other Pokemon is / are the only thing(s) stopping a mon from tearing through an entire team archetype. (ie: Mega Medicham)

 

[Shirou Saberfox]

Oh really?


Again, these all but 2 of those are S/A rank on the OU Viability Thread, so I wouldn't call them unreliable.

I should probably stop posting for a bit because I feel like I'm just repeating myself several times over, and I don't like being that guy who does that.

Yes, I read this post before. And in my opinion not many of them are all that amazingly reliable, as Aegislash tends to be able to run something that can deal with them. As you said about Clefable being able to take it unless it runs Iron Head, the same goes Bisharp being prone to Sacred Sword.

Because of Aegislash, thats two pokemon that you would want to keep on your team of six to deal with one pokemon effectively. And with running a six pokemon team, it seems absurd to carry two or even three pokemon just to deal with the different variants that on pokemon has. That would leave three or four other slots on your team to deal with the rest of the five they have on there team.

No matter how you run it, it just seems unbalanced and as others put it, "unhealthy".

 

[SoulRed12]

I still don't understand this "forces pokemon to run subpar coverage moves" argument. We're not talking about running Brick Break on Clefable like during the 3BP fiasco. First of all, earthquake itself as a move is in no way "subpar," especially when tons of ultra-viable pokemon (Landorus/doge, Hippowdon, Garchomp, I could go on) run it not as coverage but as standard STAB. Even with regard to mons for whom it is non-STAB, I don't think any of them is ever really complaining that they have to run a 100BP move that's SE on a good deal of very threatening mons in the metagame (specifically, XZard, Bisharp, Excadrill, Mega Mawile, Tyranitar, Heatran, and of course Aegis, to just name the ones in S-A rank), whether they have other slightly better options or not.

So just who even are these pokemon that have to supposedly sacrifice something to run EQ solely as coverage vs. Aegislash? Mega Gyarados loves having it, Mega Pinsir wants it for much more than Aegis, Tyranitar runs it anyway, Mega Venusaur when it runs it does it also for Heatran, and even though Terrakion only really runs it for Aegis it's not as if the choiced sets have anything better to do in the fourth slot. So who are all these pokemon people seem to be suggesting are running EQ solely for Aegislash that would really that much rather be running something else?

As you said about Clefable being able to take it unless it runs Iron Head, the same goes Bisharp being prone to Sacred Sword.

Because of Aegislash, thats two pokemon that you would want to keep on your team of six to deal with one pokemon effectively.

Except that Bisharp and Clefable are good for much more than just dealing with Aegislash, and incidentally have fairly good synergy. You're acting like dealing with Aegislash would be their only role on the team.

 

[Karxrida]

Yes, I read this post before. And in my opinion not many of them are all that amazingly reliable, as Aegislash tends to be able to run something that can deal with them. As you said about Clefable being able to take it unless it runs Iron Head, the same goes Bisharp being prone to Sacred Sword.

Because of Aegislash, thats two pokemon that you would want to keep on your team of six to deal with one pokemon effectively. And with running a six pokemon team, it seems absurd to carry two or even three pokemon just to deal with the different variants that on pokemon has. That would leave three or four other slots on your team to deal with the rest of the five they have on there team.

No matter how you run it, it just seems unbalanced and as others put it, "unhealthy".

I said they were checks, and the moment Aegislash uses Iron Head you know it doesn't have Sacred Sword (and vice-versa), and Iron Head is less common because it costs Aegislash its delicious neutral coverage. The only time an Aegislash is going to kill a Bisharp (that got in for free) with SS is if the Aegislash is healthly and predicted that the opposing Bisharp would use Pursuit, which just means you were out-gambitted.

 

[Shirou Saberfox]

I said they were checks, and the moment Aegislash uses Iron Head you know it doesn't have Sacred Sword (and vice-versa), and Iron Head is less common because it costs Aegislash its delicious neutral coverage. The only time an Aegislash is going to kill a Bisharp (that got in for free) with SS is if the Aegislash is healthly and predicted that the opposing Bisharp would use Pursuit, which just means you were out-gambitted.

Yeah, okay so thats one specific scenario and outcome. Would you care to address the rest of my argument? Why should I have to carry multiple pokemon into battle to deal with just one pokemon that is seemingly on everyones team and all of its possible varieties? Again, having to do that is ridiculous.

 

[Karxrida]

Yeah, okay so thats one specific scenario and outcome. Would you care to address the rest of my argument? Why should I have to carry multiple pokemon into battle to deal with just one pokemon that is seemingly on everyones team and all of its possible varieties? Again, having to do that is ridiculous.

You don't have to, but you will. Why? Because, as I have said several times, many of Aegislash's checks synergize well together and also fulfill other roles outside of that (and are all high ranked), which means that Aegislash is not as overcentralizing as you claim it to be. You could easily have 4 checks on your team without even realizing it or trying.