np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Rezileen]

This is simply not true, Mega Charizard X rarely even runs EQ as roost is much better overall, and focus blast does exactly the same amount to heatran as hp ground (which it never even uses lol)

I agree with most of your refutes and that the examples I gave were not all too solid. I apologize. However, the above isn't exactly true. I agree that Roost is much better on Mega Charizard X overall, but that doesn't change the fact that there are still people who run Earthquake solely for Heatran; Mega Charizard X's analysis also still has Earthquake slashed in many sets just to let it get past Heatran.

You might be surprised that people actually do use HP Ground on Mega Gardevoir. However, that is (I just realized ironically) because HP Ground hits both Heatran and Aegislash.

This is again untrue, they run Focus Blast because it gets the best neutral coverage with their STAB out of all their coverage options.

That is true, but there was always a higher risk of missing a Focus Blast on the switch or directly against Tyranitar than against say Ferrothorn or Heatran. A miss against Tyranitar could potentially lead into a 50/50 scenario of whether Scarf-Tar would Crunch or Pursuit. Yet that scenario was often a risk that Pokemon like Gengar were willing to take because it had no other options. It just strikes me that the limitations that Tyranitar (and Scizor I suppose) brought to using Pokemon like Gengar freely in previous generations feels very similar to how Aegislash limits certain Pokemon like Terrakion and Mega Heracross from roaming freely now.

Anyway, I am not advocating for or against the ban. It just doesn't seem to me that the argument that Aegislash severely limits movepools is as strong of an argument that people make it out to be. The limitations don't seem as extreme as for instance, when people had to put EVs into defense or special defense to prevent certain Download boosts from Genesect or when people were forced to run Rocky Helmet for Mega Kangaskhan.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Alright you guys are exaggerating about Pinsir's Earthquake. It doesn't hit only Aegislash we all know that, tho the only Pokemon that isn't hit even harder by CC is Mawile. But I think we all agree that Earthquake hits everything that Flying can't bar Rotom-W and Skarmory right? Lets see these two: +2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 170-200 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO while 0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 276-326 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. So Pinsir won't beat Skarmory even in Pinsir's best dreams. Now lets see Rotom-W giving the same scenario whereas Rotom-W switches in Pinsir's Swords Dance: +2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 210-248 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Volt Switch has solid chances to KO or you will just send something that can easily finish with a very weakened Pinsir. So, the aggurment that "Aegislash forces Pinsir to run Earthquake only to hit it (which is a lie btw 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 206-244 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO while CC 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 124-146 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO.) while it could run CC so it would hit Rotom-W and Skarm" is very poor as I showed, these two Pokes always (or very likely) will win against Mega Pinsir.

 

[Sturdynips]

I haven't really been keeping up with the thread and I apologise if what i'm about to say has been mentioned before, but i'm not about to skim 45 pages to check.

One of the most obvious traits Aegislash has in this metagame is the fact that, in my opinion, it promotes "lazy" teambuilding. No matter what your team is, be it HO, bulky offense, balance, stall, even TR if you want to go there, it is just really easy to throw Aegislash on as a tank, SD sweeper, spinblocker, wallbreaker, lure, and more. We all know that this is due to its versatility, typing, KS, stats, etc. I'm not casting any of that in a positive or negative manner, it's just how it is.

In reality, this versatility is overhyped. There is no denying that Aegislash can run many different sets quite effectively, but I personally don't see this as a bad thing; it just means that Aegis has very few (if any) true counters, just a ton of good checks. I don't think many people would argue that any individual set is broken, rather, the threat of a particular set/move is unhealthy.

In regards to the metagame itself, I can't think of too many examples of mons that run moves specifically for Aegis. Knock Off is possible, but mostly it's a utility move. Others such as Mega Medicham and Terrakion do run coverage for Aegis, but compared to the vast majority of the tier that does not they are almost negligible examples.

On 50/50s: They suck, yes, but Aegis is not the sole offender, and not the worst imo. Sucker Punch is everywhere, and tbh in recent times i've seen far more matches decided by Sand Rush Excadrill speed ties. Leaning toward no ban at the moment, though i can certainly understand reasons for banning, and i'm glad this test is taking place

 

[Magnemite]

It just doesn't seem to me that the argument that Aegislash severely limits movepools is as strong of an argument that people make it out to be. The limitations don't seem as extreme as for instance, when people had to put EVs into defense or special defense to prevent certain Download boosts from Genesect or when people were forced to run Rocky Helmet for Mega Kangaskhan.

Why does this matter? Suspects should be banned based on whether or not they are broken at all, not whether or not they are as broken as previous suspects. Not only does it not matter that Aegislash isn't as broken as the previous suspects, but it only makes sense for that to be the case, otherwise it would have been suspected before them. This isn't the first time I've seen this argument either, and it really doesn't make any sense why that would have any sort of impact on whether or not Aegislash should be banned.

 

[Jukain]

I still don't understand this "forces pokemon to run subpar coverage moves" argument. We're not talking about running Brick Break on Clefable like during the 3BP fiasco. First of all, earthquake itself as a move is in no way "subpar," especially when tons of ultra-viable pokemon (Landorus/doge, Hippowdon, Garchomp, I could go on) run it not as coverage but as standard STAB. Even with regard to mons for whom it is non-STAB, I don't think any of them is ever really complaining that they have to run a 100BP move that's SE on a good deal of very threatening mons in the metagame (specifically, XZard, Bisharp, Excadrill, Mega Mawile, Tyranitar, Heatran, and of course Aegis, to just name the ones in S-A rank), whether they have other slightly better options or not.

So just who even are these pokemon that have to supposedly sacrifice something to run EQ solely as coverage vs. Aegislash? Mega Gyarados loves having it, Mega Pinsir wants it for much more than Aegis, Tyranitar runs it anyway, Mega Venusaur when it runs it does it also for Heatran, and even though Terrakion only really runs it for Aegis it's not as if the choiced sets have anything better to do in the fourth slot. So who are all these pokemon people seem to be suggesting are running EQ solely for Aegislash that would really that much rather be running something else?


Except that Bisharp and Clefable are good for much more than just dealing with Aegislash, and incidentally have fairly good synergy. You're acting like dealing with Aegislash would be their only role on the team.

Mega Pinsir is running EQ solely for Aegislash. Otherwise it would have CC, which is outside of Aegislash objectively better. Mega Tyranitar is running EQ just for Aegislash. Terrakion would have room for other things on Choice sets that it would like to have, such as reliable STABs and Iron Head for Clefable. Also the fact that a CB set is practically unviable solely because of Aegislash's existence. And non-Choice sets could have things like SD, Taunt, Sub, HP Ice that they don't have room for because they need EQ for Aegislash. Dragonite runs EQ just for Aegislash (+1 Outrage does enough to Heatran, and Lum Berry counteracts status), while it could beat Ferro/Skarm/Mega Scizor but can't because it's forced to run EQ to get past Aegislash, or in the case of CB could run Thunder Punch to hit Azumarill. Greninja would be running a Hidden Power (Fire/Grass) to greatly enhance its coverage and potency, or Substitute/Shadow Sneak which are nice options, but is heavily encouraged to run Dark Pulse just for Aegislash. Mega Heracross could run Bullet Seed or SD but must run EQ just for Aegislash. Mega Medicham runs Fire Punch solely for Aegislash. It's objectively true that numerous Pokemon forfeit coverage solely for Aegislash, there's no way you can argue otherwise.

EQ is typically a bad move on Pokemon without STAB on it because it provides redundant coverage with other moves and is extremely easy to take advantage of. EQ is not easily spammable, which some people seem to think. There are numerous common, dangerous Ground immunes that can easily take advantage of the move to come in and wreak havoc. Choice-locked EQs, especially, are insanely easy to take advantage of, but even non-Choiced ones can be used to provide setup opportunities. Thus carrying this move for Aegislash is an enormous risk because trying to nail Aegislash switch-ins can get you in a very sticky situation as EQ is so easy to take advantage of.

I said they were checks, and the moment Aegislash uses Iron Head you know it doesn't have Sacred Sword (and vice-versa), and Iron Head is less common because it costs Aegislash its delicious neutral coverage. The only time an Aegislash is going to kill a Bisharp (that got in for free) with SS is if the Aegislash is healthly and predicted that the opposing Bisharp would use Pursuit, which just means you were out-gambitted.

No, it doesn't mean anything. Aegislash could well be running Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword + Iron Head. Is it a good moveset? Yes, why not? You can't make any conjectures on whether Aegislash has Sacred Sword just by seeing Iron Head. Let's take another possible, what if it's SD? You don't know, you can't even make a reasonable guess.

You also don't understand the Bisharp example. The point is that Aegislash cannot switch in because of Sacred Sword, and guess what Knock Off vs Pursuit is ANOTHER ONE of those stupid 50/50s.

You're grasping for straws if you're debating whether things are 50/50s, or Aegislash's pseudo-720 BST, or whether Aegislash causes numerous 50/50s (fact), or whether Aegislash is the largest centralizing force (fact), the competitiveness of 50/50s (nonexistent), or that something will take its place as the primary centralizing force of the tier (false, irrelevant), or whether the meta will shift to the more offensive or defensive (irrelevant), or that Pokemon are running coverage solely for Aegislash (fact), or that it has checks (mostly irrelevant).

So now, the determination for ban. To me, being forced to guess any number of Aegislash sets with the prospect of losing a Pokemon if I guess wrong, being forced to guess in the arbitrary King's Shield skewed 50/50 again with the prospect of losing a Pokemon if I guess wrong, in combination with Aegislash's general utility and effectiveness lead me to believe it is broken. To deal with Aegislash, I can't simply have a counter. I need to have multiple checks as well as God-Given skill at arbitrarily guessing. I only have 6 Pokemon to win and 24 total moves to use, I can't afford to dedicate so many of those slots to safely handle Aegislash.

If you cannot accurately dispute this, then logically you have no other choice than to have a pro-ban stance on Aegislash assuming you're a reasonable person without a preconceived anti-ban bias.

 

[alexwolf]

alexwolf i actually don't feel the meta is too offensive. stall is really good atm, just look at wcop replays and you can see that well-played stall almost always wins unless it's basically blatantly counterteamed, and even wins certain games on matchup alone because balanced and offensive teams are so concered about improving their matchup against the ~more common~ offense, that their only way to win these matchups is to make multiple plays to gain small advantages to put themselves in a position where they might have a chance to win.

i know you're not just talking about stall, you're talking about balanced and w/e as well. at a high level of play, balanced teams are very common too! i think we can afford for defensive teams to supposedly be taken down a peg given how strong defensive archetypes are in the current metagame.

Stall being good doesn't mean that the metagame has the ideal plyastyle ratio, it just means that stall is a good and viable plyastyle. Also, it's used a lot in tours because it's the most reliable playstyle, and reliability matters a lot there. And even if the level of offense right now is fine (which i don't think is true, offensive teams still have a ridiculous amount of versatility, where stall teams are forced to run 2-3 different builds, just an example), this doesn't mean that we should make it more offensive.

O.k, so why is this relevant. Who really cares if offense will get better, you can make such a claim about most pokemon in existence that if X leaves Y style will become better. Like, I have seen some good anti ban arguments, Starfall11 has a few of them, but seriously, your personal reason for keeping something OU would have to be one of the stupidest reasoning I have seen within this thread. I don't even see how your argument is even relevant to the suspect test process as a whole. If offence becomes "unhealthy" if Aegislash leaves, then obviously its due to a few pokemon pushing the envelope which promptly get banned. But by your own argument, offensive threats won't become broken...so there should be no problems, as according to you, offence will be more common and still be healthy (not broken), and I suspect stall will continue to be as good as it always is.

Remember alex, the metagame will ALWAYS adapt if something goes (heck, it adapts if something stays as well), shifting between being offensive and more defensive. Its a fact of the meta, but its NOT a reason to keep something OU, something I just confirmed with Haunter.

I don't want to keep Aegislash in OU to prevent the metagame from getting offensive, i want to keep Aegislash in OU because imo it's not broken. The whole ''Aegislash is good for OU because it limits offense'' came up when people tried to use the fact that Aegislash checks and limits a lot of offensive Pokemon as a reason to ban it, which can be both good and bad, depending on how you prefer the metgame to be. So this discussion was about me explaining how Aegislash's effect on the metagame is not objectively bad, it depends on the way your preferred playstyle ratio.

So instead of blaming me for making irrelevant arguments, try to understand better what i am saying next time.

I have not read all of this thread, though I know that there are plenty of posts that say offense will be broken without Aegislash around.

This could not be more false. Aegislash functions as a check to Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, and some Fighting-types when it is on an offensive team. I have never seen a defensive team that used Aegislash to check these Pokemon—defensive teams simply do not have enough space. Almost all stall teams are weak to one of the aforementioned Mega Evolutions; that is a risk you are already taking when you choose to bring a defensive team to battle. Stall teams are, by nature, weak to these Pokemon. The argument that removing Aegislash will overpower offensive teams is ludicrous.

Consider this scenario: you have a stall team and you are facing an offensive team with a Taunt Mega Gardevoir. Your stall team is weak to Taunt Mega Gardevoir. There is no Aegislash present. To assume that Aegislash has anything to do with this matchup is just faulty reasoning. In fact, getting rid of Aegislash is simply taking care of another threat to stall teams. Predicting which direction the metagame will shift is not relevant to this suspect test. Whether Aegislash is broken or not is the question the test should be based around.

Aegislash is making those threats more uncommon or restricts their moveset just by being a top tier metagame threat, it doesn't need to exist on a team with a defensive core to help mitigate the threat of those offensive Pokemon. From my experience, offensive teams are the kind of teams that struggle with Aegislash the most, as they often can't OHKO it and they often lack good switch-ins. Not only this, but it has already been explained how Aegislash checks and restricts mostly Pokemon of offensive nature, so when it goes it's a very logical conclusion to make that the metagame will get more offensive. Note that i am saying more offensive and not that offensive Pokemon will get broken, because this new more offensive meta could as well be a balanced one.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Mega Pinsir is running EQ solely for Aegislash. Otherwise it would have CC, which is outside of Aegislash objectively better.

Have you read my post? Close Combat makes no difference. Skarmory and Rotom-W beats Pinsir and you are going to hit everything else with Earthquake. I only see Close Combat to KO Tyranitar which is a good check to Mega Pinsir anyway, specially with Scarf. Give better reasons to use Close Combat over Earthquake.

 

[CyclicCompound]

Have you read my post? Close Combat makes no difference. Skarmory and Rotom-W beats Pinsir and you are going to hit everything else with Earthquake. I only see Close Combat to KO Tyranitar which is a good check to Mega Pinsir anyway, specially with Scarf. Give better reasons to use Close Combat over Earthquake.

Without Aegislash, reasons to use Close Combat:

• It's more powerful.
• After a Swords Dance, Close Combat can actually OHKO Rotom-W.
• At +2, Close Combat can 2HKO Skarmory. Much easier to beat than with Earthquake, much less prior offensive pressure needed.
• It lets you beat Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Tyranitar more easily.

Without Aegislash, reasons to use Earthquake:

• It lets you beat Heatran and Mawile more easily.
• No defense drops.

Those are the main objective things I could think of for each move. I hope you can see how in an Aegislash-less metagame, Close Combat is almost always the better choice. Heatran and Mawile are generally much easier to weaken than the targets of Close Combat, and defense drops aren't too prohibitive.

 

[Clone]

If you cannot accurately dispute this, then logically you have no other choice than to have a pro-ban stance on Aegislash assuming you're a reasonable person without a preconceived anti-ban bias.

The fact that there are plenty of ground types (Garchomp, Excadrill, Mamoswine, Hippowdon, and Gliscor) in OU, Im not following the whole "I need 4 teamslots to beat Aegis" argument. Hippowdon outslows Aegis and can hit him in Shield Forme. SubToxic you say? Ok. I have 5 other mons who can potentially beat that set or force Aegis out. And if its not SubToxic? Aegis is ded. On top of all this, these Ground types dont give a flying fuck about these 50-50s, cuz KS doesnt do anything to their attack. All of these have a good chance OHKO thru shield forme when holding a LO (252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 299-354 (92.2 - 109.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO). And while most Aegis do run max HP, those that dont cant live any of these hits (especially LO Excadrills).

So yeah, I can dispute that. Many teams that are built arent "Oh shit I need half my team to beat Aegislash omg." Aegis is pretty much passively checked by most teams, and those that dont arent good anyways for the most part. Aside from all that, the whole "what set is he gonna be using?" argument holds no value to me. Why? Because the same goes for a lot of mons out there. What Thundy Variant am I facing? What Garchomp set? TTar set? Venusaur? All these are top tier threats that can run a multitude of sets. So why does Aegis get a special treatment? The more I read these post the more bias I see. Aldaron made a good post, but I dont agree with it and I explained why.

The more I think about it the more I lean towards the anti ban side. And this came from someone who had a neutral standpoint at the beginning (read my post on the first page if you dont believe me).

 

[Punchshroom]

Have you read my post? Close Combat makes no difference. Skarmory and Rotom-W beats Pinsir and you are going to hit everything else with Earthquake. I only see Close Combat to KO Tyranitar which is a good check to Mega Pinsir anyway, specially with Scarf. Give better reasons to use Close Combat over Earthquake.

If Aegislash were to be exiled from the tier, would you still be running Earthquake?

 

[Clone]

If Aegislash were to be exiled from the tier, would you still be running Earthquake?

I would. Its really personal preference when Aegis is out of the picture. On one hand, you have a more powerful move that can hit a few more things, but has the drawback of lowering your defenses which makes you more vulnerable to priority and easier to RK. On the other hand, you have a reliable move with a respectable BP that lits other things harder (such as Heatran), with the only drawback being that there are more immunities to it.

So to answer your question: Sure, Id still run it. There are plenty of things that can beat Rotom and Skarm.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Without Aegislash, reasons to use Close Combat:

• It's more powerful.
• After a Swords Dance, Close Combat can actually OHKO Rotom-W.
• At +2, Close Combat can 2HKO Skarmory. Much easier to beat than with Earthquake, much less prior offensive pressure needed.
• It lets you beat Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Tyranitar more easily.

Without Aegislash, reasons to use Earthquake:

• It lets you beat Heatran and Mawile more easily.
• No defense drops.

Those are the main objective things I could think of for each move. I hope you can see how in an Aegislash-less metagame, Close Combat is almost always the better choice. Heatran and Mawile are generally much easier to weaken than the targets of Close Combat, and defense drops aren't too prohibitive.

You also didn't read my post because if u did, u would know I was talking about defensive rotom that survives CC. You would also know that Skarmory easily KOes after Pinsir defense drop. Most Excadrill you find in OU are also OHKOed by Earthquake and Pinsir should never deal with Excadrill unless its one of the last attempts from the opponent to stop a sweep, otherwise its potentially scarf. It definitely helps beating Ferrothorn, tho Gyro Ball is doing about 60% without counting on Iron Barbs. I give you tyranitar. It should be noticed (and its in Hollywood analysis, its not from me) that Close Combat defense drops does make it harder to Pinsir sweep; with EQ you don't need to lose longevity. EDIT: Btw Ferrothorn is neutral to the STAB.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

If you cannot accurately dispute this, then logically you have no other choice than to have a pro-ban stance on Aegislash assuming you're a reasonable person without a preconceived anti-ban bias.

Easy:

If you think the prediction wars produced by Aegislash are worse than the absolute chaos of the suspect ladder, fine. I can't argue with that because it's your opinion

It was well written and hard to argue because he explained his view on things and his criteria for something to be ban worthy. Nobody's arguing his points (except the 50/50 one, but I'm cool with agreeing to disagree on that one), because he addressed them as they were: controversial and debatable criteria to see if something is ban worthy.

He understood that this is a subjective argument and admitted his biases. That's fine, but since he is using his own criteria that is not official smogon policy, we are free to disagree. We're not arguing Aegislash's effectiveness (unless you choose to exaggerate, which is something the pro-ban side does A LOT), we're arguing the criteria for something to be ban worthy. We say that Aegislash is dangerous but not broken, forces predictions but isn't uncompetitive, and is centralizing, but not overcentralizing. Nothing you or Aldaron have said forces us to change our definitions of ban worthy. He got that, why can't you?

 

[Flamer]

This argument about running "inferior" coverage really goes nowhere and needs to stop. Coverage is called coverage for a reason, it covers issues that a STAB combo or common moveset can't get past. To the person that said CharX doesn't run EQ, in what universe do you live in? Unless you're using Bulky DD with roost, Ground coverage is invaluable else you want to be walled by Tran and is very common in both tourney play and ladder (although lots of people are running SD + Roost atm). This "I need to run coverage to beat the most threatening check/counter" idea applies to almost every offensive and defensive mon towards a particular counter, it's not something that applies to just Aegislash and if a mon needs to run a particular move to avoid being walled, so be it. I want to run CC on M-Pinsir as well but even in an Aegi-less Meta, the defense drops hamper his sweeping ability and EQ might be the better choice in some cases. The whole inferior coverage argument also is a double-edged sword that applies to Aegi just as much as it applies to any other mon, and you guys even call this inferior coverage "unpredictability" and "grounds for a ban". You can pretend Head Smash Aegi isn't a gimmick all you want but at the end of the day, you're killing yourself to deal with a counter, whats the point of that? Aegislash only has two viable sets, Standard tank and Subtoxic. The rest are either gimmicky ways to deal with a counter, like Max speed and Head Smash, or subpar, like 4 attack LO or SD so unpredictability barely applies to Aegi. The whole "It has no counters" argument is also fundamentally flawed. Of the two sets that I named as viable, they are both hard countered by Sp.Def Gliscor and Standard Amoongus, two sets that are pretty viable, regardless of Aegi's existence, and there are many soft counters and a very large variety of very viable checks.

 

[Punchshroom]

You also didn't read my post because if u did, u would know I was talking about defensive rotom that survives CC. You would also know that Skarmory easily KOes after Pinsir defense drop. Most Excadrill you find in OU are also OHKOed by Earthquake and Pinsir should never deal with Excadrill unless its one of the last attempts from the opponent to stop a sweep, otherwise its potentially scarf. It definitely helps beating Ferrothorn, tho Gyro Ball is doing about 60% without counting on Iron Barbs. I give you tyranitar. It should be noticed (and its in Hollywood analysis, its not from me) that Close Combat defense drops does make it harder to Pinsir sweep; with EQ you don't need to lose longevity. EDIT: Btw Ferrothorn is neutral to the STAB.

Plenty of people would want Pinsir to be able to more easily bypass Skarm and Rotom-W on its own, but as of right now Pinsir doesn't really have a choice because Aegislash is just that important to hit. Should Aegislash not be around, there would be much less pressure on Pinsir to simply run Close Combat and beat these two mons up with just a bit of prior weakening, increasing Pinsir's odds by a significant amount (min damage CC > max damage Return), while not missing out much / at all on almost all EQ targets (bar Mawile, which usually runs zero recovery).

Edit: Also Close Combat nails Balloon Steel-types. SoulRed12 To keep it plain and simple, Mega Pinsir's minimum damage Close Combat outdamages max damage Return. This is vitally important when you consider that it means Rotom-W does not need to be worn down as much, and gives Pinsir some sort of fighting chance against Skarmory, all while hardly missing out on any of Earthquake's targets. If Aegislash departs, the only real reason to use Earthquake would be for Mawile (unboosted EQ Pinsir still loses to Mega-Mane, while boosted Close Combat Pinsir still beats Mega-Mane if it wins the speedtie).

 

[Karxrida]

No, it doesn't mean anything. Aegislash could well be running Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword + Iron Head. Is it a good moveset? Yes, why not? You can't make any conjectures on whether Aegislash has Sacred Sword just by seeing Iron Head. Let's take another possible, what if it's SD? You don't know, you can't even make a reasonable guess.

You also don't understand the Bisharp example. The point is that Aegislash cannot switch in because of Sacred Sword, and guess what Knock Off vs Pursuit is ANOTHER ONE of those stupid 50/50s.

You're grasping for straws if you're debating whether things are 50/50s, or Aegislash's pseudo-720 BST, or whether Aegislash causes numerous 50/50s (fact), or whether Aegislash is the largest centralizing force (fact), the competitiveness of 50/50s (nonexistent), or that something will take its place as the primary centralizing force of the tier (false, irrelevant), or whether the meta will shift to the more offensive or defensive (irrelevant), or that Pokemon are running coverage solely for Aegislash (fact), or that it has checks (mostly irrelevant).

First of all, Aegislash tend to chose between Iron Head and Sacred Sword because it wants to have Shadow Sneak to finish off weakened targets.
Secondly, Bisharp using Knock Off is pretty much a win-win because SOMETHING has to take it and lose its item.
Thirdly, the Pursuit 50-50 applies to all Pursuit Trappers and is irrelevant.
Fourth, I said like 5 times now that Bisharp is a check.
Fifth, SD is a lategame cleaner only (the effectiveness of which is dubious) and forgoes King's Shield completely.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

You do realize CC hits the same ammount of pokemon as EQ, right?

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 206-244 (53.3 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (87.9 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

And what happens next? Roar for SR and get rid of predicted SD.. or

4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 356-420 (131.3 - 154.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now lets say EQ is ran..

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Heatran: 432-512 (111.9 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 344-408 (89.1 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 236-282 (87 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (Notice there's a "chance" of living..)

Even if heatran is air balloon you have better survival odds going for a quick attack/return to break it, and then EQ.. but CC will always be a 2HKO on any set and only a 25% chance of OHKO'ing if heatran has no investment.

EQ is overall better.. plus pinsir has mold breaker prior to Mega-evo to nail rotoms.

252 Atk Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Instead..

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Doesn't look like it'll KO withen the two hits (and that damage difference between a neutral hit and resisted hit isn't huge.. just a weird position for rotom case being on the border of 3-2HKO)

Somebody already covered skarmory..

Aegislash isn't the only thing eq is ran for.. it's overall a better coverage option as it hits steel, electric, fire, rock, and poison.. While fighting hits dark, which defensively isn't a good typing and return will handle, steel which EQ covers, rocks like terrakion which again EQ covers, and rare normal types... while being resisted by fairy, poison, flying, and ghost being immune.

Blaming aegislash for EQ being more used isn't a good arguement as most of the time when running EQ you find yourself using it against something else nonaegislash..

 

[Starfall11]

Can we please stop the 50/50 madness? Soulred12 and myself have outlined on one of the previous pages why Aegislash does not create 50/50s anymore than other situations may cause in a pokemon battle. If you still believe it's a 50/50 chance to predict King's Shield, you must not think ahead or behind in battle. Make note of the type of opponent you're facing. Think... there's much more than the present situation.

I think the people against banning Aegislash have proved time and time again that he does not create true 50/50s with King's Shield.

 

[SoulRed12]

Mega Pinsir is running EQ solely for Aegislash. Otherwise it would have CC, which is outside of Aegislash objectively better. Mega Tyranitar is running EQ just for Aegislash. Terrakion would have room for other things on Choice sets that it would like to have, such as reliable STABs and Iron Head for Clefable. Also the fact that a CB set is practically unviable solely because of Aegislash's existence. And non-Choice sets could have things like SD, Taunt, Sub, HP Ice that they don't have room for because they need EQ for Aegislash. Dragonite runs EQ just for Aegislash (+1 Outrage does enough to Heatran, and Lum Berry counteracts status), while it could beat Ferro/Skarm/Mega Scizor but can't because it's forced to run EQ to get past Aegislash, or in the case of CB could run Thunder Punch to hit Azumarill. Greninja would be running a Hidden Power (Fire/Grass) to greatly enhance its coverage and potency, or Substitute/Shadow Sneak which are nice options, but is heavily encouraged to run Dark Pulse just for Aegislash. Mega Heracross could run Bullet Seed or SD but must run EQ just for Aegislash. Mega Medicham runs Fire Punch solely for Aegislash. It's objectively true that numerous Pokemon forfeit coverage solely for Aegislash, there's no way you can argue otherwise.

I really can't see how Close Combat is that much more valuable than EQ, given EQ KOs almost everything Mega Pinsir would use CC for. Besides, as I wrote, even if Mega Pinsir would "rather" have CC for whatever reasons, the question is how much it's giving up, not whether it's giving up literally anything. Also keep in mind that even a super effective Close Combat isn't that much stronger than a neutral return, and similarly for neutral CC vs. NVE Return.

So, the only things it really loses by going EQ over CC:

Some damage on defensive Rotoms, who it can't KO even with +2 CC and who can simply cripple M-Pinsir with burn, and who are 2HKOd by +2 return anyway
The ability to OHKO Ttar without a boost. (+2 EQ OHKOs)
The ability to OHKO Physically Defensive Ferrothorn (+2 return OHKOs specially defensive), who still takes massive damage from +2 return and goes down with even 10% prior damage
The ability to do a tiny bit more damage to Skarm, who will simply OHKO in return with Brave Bird thanks to -1 defenses.

Everything else it can simply deal with using EQ or Return just fine. Or it could simply run CC and the player could run something else to deal with Aegislash, and wait to bring out M-Pinsir until it's dead. (Incidentally, EQ is actually better vs. some threats as well, such as Mega Mawile and Mega Manectric.)

Just because this post is relevant to M-Pinsir and appeared as I was typing, my comments are in bold:

Without Aegislash, reasons to use Close Combat:

• It's more powerful. Not much more powerful than NVE Return, actually. See above.
• After a Swords Dance, Close Combat can actually OHKO Rotom-W. It can't KO Physically Defensive Rotom, who can then OHKO with Volt Switch thanks to the defense drop. As for offensive Rotom, +2 Return OHKOs 81.3% of the time.
• At +2, Close Combat can 2HKO Skarmory. Much easier to beat than with Earthquake, much less prior offensive pressure needed. +2 Return can also 2HKO after SR. Even so, it doesn't matter because Skarm OHKOs back with Brave Bird. Actually, that's wrong; it only OHKOs after the defense drop from CC.
• It lets you beat Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Tyranitar more easily. True about Tyranitar, kind of true about Ferrothorn, false about Excadrill. Even if its Balloon is still intact, +2 Return OHKOs despite being resisted.

Now, Terrakion. Choice sets run dual STABs and...? SE Iron head is only slightly more powerful than neutral STAB Stone Edge (160 vs. 150 BP). Even that aside, what goes in the last slot? Quick Attack? X-Scissor? Just because it might sometimes like to run one of those moves doesn't mean it's realistically giving up much by having EQ. Non-choice loses out on a second support move, I'll admit that, but just because it *could* run two support moves doesn't mean it's suddenly crippled or even just significantly worse by having to "only" run SD or Sub + 3 attacks.

Dragonite might have a bit of a tough choice between Fire Punch or Earthquake, but it's not solely due to Aegislash. He also wants EQ for Heatran (you can't honestly argue that "+1 Outrage does enough" is a sufficient argument when EQ is a swift OHKO at +0 and frees Dnite up to use the much less risky D-claw), Tyranitar, Terrakion, and even various steels like Mega Mawile since SE EQ is a fair bit stronger than SE Fire Punch. (certainly more of a difference than Mega Pinsir's SE CC vs. neutral Return)

Greninja's coverage and utility is excellent whether it runs HP or not. Even that aside, Dark Pulse isn't completely useless outside of Aegislash (it also hits various psychics, especially Slowbro), though I will admit HP Fire is overall a better choice than Dark Pulse.

I'll admit Mega Hera would like Bullet Seed, but it's not the end of the world. It's only really losing something vs. Azumarill, Hippowdon, and somewhat vs. Rotom-W as well. It also hits Keldeo on the switch in, but only on the switch in, since Keldeo frequently run HP Flying which OHKOs Mega Hera (and actually, Close Combat can OHKO Keldeo anyway especially after SR). SD would also be nice, I'll admit that too, but again, not really the end of the world.

Mega Medicham also wants Fire Punch for Mega Mawile, safety vs. Ferrothorn (who frequently run Protect), and Mega Scizor.

And all of this doesn't even address the fact that not every fucking pokemon on a player's team that can possibly run a certain move to hit Aegislash has to do so. There's literally no reason to relegate Aegis duty to something like Greninja when you could simply run one of the multitude of other checks that already love running EQ. Or you can just give bullet seed to Mega Hera and again, use something else to kill Aegis before sending it out. These are all basic coverage decisions just like any others we give no extra thoughts to.

So now, the determination for ban. To me, being forced to guess any number of Aegislash sets with the prospect of losing a Pokemon if I guess wrong, being forced to guess in the arbitrary King's Shield skewed 50/50 again with the prospect of losing a Pokemon if I guess wrong, in combination with Aegislash's general utility and effectiveness lead me to believe it is broken. To deal with Aegislash, I can't simply have a counter. I need to have multiple checks as well as God-Given skill at arbitrarily guessing. I only have 6 Pokemon to win and 24 total moves to use, I can't afford to dedicate so many of those slots to safely handle Aegislash.

If you cannot accurately dispute this, then logically you have no other choice than to have a pro-ban stance on Aegislash assuming you're a reasonable person without a preconceived anti-ban bias.

Except that I can, and I have (as well as here and here), and many others have as well.

 

[Zebstrika]

If you run cc on pinsir you hit skarmory and rotom about 21% harder. But if you run quake over cc you hit aegislash nearly 4x as hard as return and without kings shield attack drop. Pinsir doesn't run eq because aegislash is centralizing it's because it's a much bigger advantage vs aegislash than cc is vs skarmory and rotom

 

[Micro Mercury]

I do not agree with an Aegislash ban. But I do agree that Aegislash has no true counters.

After a short discussion in the Competitive Tutoring and Overused rooms, it can be seen that not many pokes can really take a hit from Aegis, but only depending on what kind of Aegis it is.

A diggersby, let's say, would counter an Non Sacred Sword Aegis.
A skarmory would counter an Aegislash, if only it did not run shadow ball.

There are many types of Aegislash that can be used, ranging from Physical to Special. So there isn't really a hard counter.

I don't have a problem with Aegislash when I am up against it however.
And I don't use one either.

 

[InfinityX000]

I feel like many pokes run unnecessary aegis coverage or aegis coverage that isn't all that bad. Other that boosters, many pokes don't need aegis coverage, simply a strong check like Bisharp, or even Garchomp with Swords Dance (both of which can switch in on shadow ball, take it like a pro, and OHKO shield form, or in the case of SD Garchomp, predict the KS and SD, then OHKO shield form). As far as boosters somewhat weak to Aegis, many weren't all that viable in the first place. Others may bemade less viable, but still OK. I am not saying that aegis is not good, just that it is in no way bad.

 

[Red Cat]

I don't see why people are saying things like, 'your argument is irrelevant, you can't justify your speculation, etc'.

At the end of the day, people are just voting for the meta they prefer, and that's entirely subjective.

If people just went out and got reqs and voted for the meta they prefer, there would be no reason to have this thread at all. The point of this thread is discuss the rationale for banning or not banning something. Smogon does have a set of criteria, albeit subjective criteria, to justify banning something so that players don't just vote to serve their own interests because then Smogon OU would no longer be a competitive meta if the best players get to pick the set of rules which they want to play by.

 

[Pezomatic]

May I ask have you ever used Aegislash, in Ubers, it get demolished unless you have stealth rocks, then it has a decent chance to do some damage. Also the special variant of Aegislash gets a wide verity of two moves (not including hidden power) that are useful, Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon, which can do very little to most pokemon if Aegislash is a wall set (ex. 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Sp Attk or 4Attk) with a offensive boosting Nature it can do noting specially offensively wise and like many have said it does make many 50/50 situations but it can be burned, confused, etc. which can make Aegislash render useless due to it not being able to regain health outside of items and as we know shell bell is the only thing that can restore over 6% (leftovers) and can be "consistent". I also see how the ban could improve the meta but i believe that it would cause the meta to end up having other things like Talonflame, Charizard (mega), and many others possibly being banned which would make the OU meta game like UU and that being mainly bulk. Thank you for reading this and please understand where I'm coming from i believe not banning this pokemon would be better for the OU meta game. ~Pezomatic

 

[Karxrida]

May I ask have you ever used Aegislash, in Ubers, it get demolished unless you have stealth rocks, then it has a decent chance to do some damage. Also the special variant of Aegislash gets a wide verity of two moves (not including hidden power) that are useful, Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon, which can do very little to most pokemon if Aegislash is a wall set (ex. 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Sp Attk or 4Attk) with a offensive boosting Nature it can do noting specially offensively wise and like many have said it does make many 50/50 situations but it can be burned, confused, etc. which can make Aegislash render useless due to it not being able to regain health outside of items and as we know shell bell is the only thing that can restore over 6% (leftovers) and can be "consistent". I also see how the ban could improve the meta but i believe that it would cause the meta to end up having other things like Talonflame, Charizard (mega), and many others possibly being banned which would make the OU meta game like UU and that being mainly bulk. Thank you for reading this and please understand where I'm coming from i believe not banning this pokemon would be better for the OU meta game. ~Pezomatic

A Mon's usefulness in Ubers does not affect our decision to ban things, otherwise Deo-N would be OU right now. Also please don't bring up any slippery slope arguments about what will get banned, as broken things are still broken regardless.

Thanks.