np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[RotomPoison]

my reply to Pezomatic

May I ask have you ever used Aegislash, in Ubers, it get demolished unless you have stealth rocks, then it has a decent chance to do some damage. Also the special variant of Aegislash gets a wide verity of two moves (not including hidden power) that are useful, Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon, which can do very little to most pokemon if Aegislash is a wall set (ex. 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Sp Attk or 4Attk) with a offensive boosting Nature it can do noting specially offensively wise and like many have said it does make many 50/50 situations but it can be burned, confused, etc. which can make Aegislash render useless due to it not being able to regain health outside of items and as we know shell bell is the only thing that can restore over 6% (leftovers) and can be "consistent". I also see how the ban could improve the meta but i believe that it would cause the meta to end up having other things like Talonflame, Charizard (mega), and many others possibly being banned which would make the OU meta game like UU and that being mainly bulk. Thank you for reading this and please understand where I'm coming from i believe not banning this pokemon would be better for the OU meta game. ~Pezomatic

I have stayed out of this thread (mainly because it's been bad) but come on...

"it gets demolished unless you have SR then it can do damage"

What? Are you seriously suggesting the use of offensive Aegislash in Ubers? That is literally the worst thing you can suggest to someone, where its only role is checking Xerneas and Pursuit trapping Gengar (and because this thread is what it is, yes I do know, because I wrote the analysis for it)

Those 2 moves are more than enough, Shadow Ball alone is enough, actually. There is no such thing as an "offensive wall set" or whatever o_o especially not that.

Did you just say confusion was viable to stop Aegislash?

"due to it not being able to regain health outside of items and as we know shell bell is the only thing that can restore over 6% (leftovers) and can be "consistent""

???????????

Ok. Shell Bell? I'm sorry but this loses all credibility. Shell Bell is a terrible item.

Aegislash being banned does not make anything else any more broken (I mean you can make an arguement for Mawile but not itt.

Also what Karxrida said

I don't have time to go for reqs, so I will just say that Aegislash does need to be banned. It is not because of bad arguements like how the metagame will turn out after, it is because Aegislash is, on its own, broken. Its limited switchins are already prone to being worn down and Aegislashs unique combination of bulk, typing, power, and versatility simply push it over the edge. People saying Swirds Dance is a gimmick please stop. It is nowhere near consistent as the standard Tank set but it is a viable and threatening set nonetheless. People saying Head Smash is a gimmick, just stop, it proves Aegi has enough to get past nearly any viable "counter" out there. Gliscor? HP Ice. Mandibuzz? Head Smash. It even has priority and the second best defensive typing in the game as well as Ghost typing offensively, so it is simply the best typing in the game outside of Klefki, who has no use offensively like Aegislash does. King's Shield 50/50s are another factor but not as big as everyone makes it out to be. If all moves caused the drop then yes, that would be insane, but status moves go through it and EQ/Sucker Punch do not cause the drop, for example, as well as Defiant Bisharp nullifying it. None of these factors make Aegislash broken, it is simply the combination of them that do. Aegislash is not concretely broken, so this is obviously controversial and while there are 2 very good sides (though not shown by this thread...) the best solution is simply: ban Aegislash, for a combination of excellent traits that make this Pokemon broken.

 

[magic123]

May I ask have you ever used Aegislash, in Ubers, it get demolished unless you have stealth rocks, then it has a decent chance to do some damage. Also the special variant of Aegislash gets a wide verity of two moves (not including hidden power) that are useful, Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon, which can do very little to most pokemon if Aegislash is a wall set (ex. 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Sp Attk or 4Attk) with a offensive boosting Nature it can do noting specially offensively wise and like many have said it does make many 50/50 situations but it can be burned, confused, etc. which can make Aegislash render useless due to it not being able to regain health outside of items and as we know shell bell is the only thing that can restore over 6% (leftovers) and can be "consistent". I also see how the ban could improve the meta but i believe that it would cause the meta to end up having other things like Talonflame, Charizard (mega), and many others possibly being banned which would make the OU meta game like UU and that being mainly bulk. Thank you for reading this and please understand where I'm coming from i believe not banning this pokemon would be better for the OU meta game. ~Pezomatic

No hate here,your opinion is your opinion,but I would like to make some counter arguments for your points.

May I ask have you ever used Aegislash, in Ubers, it get demolished unless you have stealth rocks, then it has a decent chance to do some damage.

Like the above post says,a mon's usefulness in ubers does not determine whether or not it should be banned,like say deoxys-n.It is a banlist first tier second.

the special variant of Aegislash gets a wide verity of two moves (not including hidden power) that are useful, Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon, which can do very little to most pokemon if Aegislash is a wall set

It doesn't matter.Excadrill last generation only needed two moves and swords dance to make the metagame it's mop,as long as two moves get the job done.Oh,and any move in a defensive set will be weak no matter what moves it gets,which is why its called a defensive set.

it can do noting specially offensively wise

Not really.Its shadow ball is really hard to switch into if you have no resists,and its resists just don't stick onto any team you know.And even when uninvested and with a hindering nature,a super effective sacred sword will do more than enough

it does make many 50/50 situations but it can be burned, confused, etc. which can make Aegislash render useless due to it not being able to regain health outside of items and as we know shell bell is the only thing that can restore over 6% (leftovers) and can be "consistent".

This 50/50 thing is always the situation you want to avoid in a competitive scene,because remember,since stupid things like Klefkis used to cause that 50/50 lottery it got banned,because it is uncompetitive.

Fine,vulnerability to status and lack of reliable recovery outside of items is a thing,but look,a mon does not have to be perfect,I mean,mega lucario was vulnerable to status but it still got banned.You may say "but it does not rely on its defenses" well things like assault vest azumarill is vulnerable to status,lacks recovery and it relies on its defenses to be useful,and i can see people work with that because it has so much offensive utility it does not matter it lacks recovery and it is more of a hit and run pokemon rather than a gradual attacker

I also see how the ban could improve the meta but i believe that it would cause the meta to end up having other things like Talonflame, Charizard (mega), and many others possibly being banned which would make the OU meta game like UU and that being mainly bulk.

How this ban affect future bans do not matter.How this ban affects the pokemon right now matters.If pokemon like talonflame and charizard X&Y is as hard to check or counter as aegislash,I dont see how it is wrong to ban them too.(The exception is talonflame is extremely easy to counter but the charizard forms may be banned in the future).An OU centered around balanced teams is a dream metagame in my eyes,but thats subjective.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

personally, I was originally ALL for the aeigislash ban moreso than anyone. But after listening to 49 pages of discussion, my perspective has completely changed, and I honestly think all these pro-ban arguments are silly conjecture. Aegislash is an amazing, useful, and definetly centralizing mon, that's a fact. But honestly, is that even grounds for a ban? He seems no different than a really good mon, like scizor used to be. The 50/50 arguments are honestly BS now, and the part about mons having to run coverage to hit it is no different than other top tier mons either.

Also, while the topics still on my mind, IF aegislash is banned, pinsir shouldn't be running CC, as people have stated before, it doesn't beat anything before. It should either keep running eq for mega mawile or even consider running stone edge to dunk zapdos and thundy on the switch.

 

[Blizzardhail]

my reply to Pezomatic

I have stayed out of this thread (mainly because it's been bad) but come on...

"it gets demolished unless you have SR then it can do damage"

What? Are you seriously suggesting the use of offensive Aegislash in Ubers? That is literally the worst thing you can suggest to someone, where its only role is checking Xerneas and Pursuit trapping Gengar (and because this thread is what it is, yes I do know, because I wrote the analysis for it)

Those 2 moves are more than enough, Shadow Ball alone is enough, actually. There is no such thing as an "offensive wall set" or whatever o_o especially not that.

Did you just say confusion was viable to stop Aegislash?

"due to it not being able to regain health outside of items and as we know shell bell is the only thing that can restore over 6% (leftovers) and can be "consistent""

???????????

Ok. Shell Bell? I'm sorry but this loses all credibility. Shell Bell is a terrible item.

Aegislash being banned does not make anything else any more broken (I mean you can make an arguement for Mawile but not itt.

Also what Karxrida said

I don't have time to go for reqs, so I will just say that Aegislash does need to be banned. It is not because of bad arguements like how the metagame will turn out after, it is because Aegislash is, on its own, broken. Its limited switchins are already prone to being worn down and Aegislashs unique combination of bulk, typing, power, and versatility simply push it over the edge. People saying Swirds Dance is a gimmick please stop. It is nowhere near consistent as the standard Tank set but it is a viable and threatening set nonetheless. People saying Head Smash is a gimmick, just stop, it proves Aegi has enough to get past nearly any viable "counter" out there. Gliscor? HP Ice. Mandibuzz? Head Smash. It even has priority and the second best defensive typing in the game as well as Ghost typing offensively, so it is simply the best typing in the game outside of Klefki, who has no use offensively like Aegislash does. King's Shield 50/50s are another factor but not as big as everyone makes it out to be. If all moves caused the drop then yes, that would be insane, but status moves go through it and EQ/Sucker Punch do not cause the drop, for example, as well as Defiant Bisharp nullifying it. None of these factors make Aegislash broken, it is simply the combination of them that do. Aegislash is not concretely broken, so this is obviously controversial and while there are 2 very good sides (though not shown by this thread...) the best solution is simply: ban Aegislash, for a combination of excellent traits that make this Pokemon broken.

Hi RotomPoison. Most of your point are valid but. I have a few nitpicks
StanceDance is a gimmick. It's moves are weak and even at +6 KOs frail Offensive pokemon at best. Head Smash isn't a gimmick but if Aegislash's poor HP means Aegislash ends up killing itself anyway.

 

[Pyritie]

This 50/50 thing is always the situation you want to avoid in a competitive scene,because remember,since stupid things like Klefkis used to cause that 50/50 lottery it got banned,because it is uncompetitive.

It's not a goddamn lottery, it's called prediction and risk vs reward and it's the same thing you do all the time in a battle. It has nothing to do with RNG like swagger did and this is a stupid argument

50/50's should be banned? Welp, guess we have to ban bisharp and m-mawile now because of sucker punch. And let's ban charizard too because oh it's a 50/50 as to what mega it is. Things that have multiple and different sets like clefable? Nope can't have that, it's a 50/50 as to what set it is! Is that a regular gyara or is it going to mega and change its type? Surely that must be a 50/50!
See where I'm going with this? It's dumb

Fine,vulnerability to status and lack of reliable recovery outside of items is a thing,but look,a mon does not have to be perfect,I mean,mega lucario was vulnerable to status but it still got banned.You may say "but it does not rely on its defenses" well things like assault vest azumarill is vulnerable to status,lacks recovery and it relies on its defenses to be useful,and i can see people work with that because it has so much offensive utility it does not matter it lacks recovery and it is more of a hit and run pokemon rather than a gradual attacker

Rotom-W has a similar role (pivot with strong offense but lack of good recovery) with a better typing and it's still perfectly fine. Sure it walls a ton of things, so does aegislash. But all of the calcs being thrown around in this thread assume aegi's always at 100% HP when that's only ever the case once per battle.

People saying Head Smash is a gimmick, just stop, it proves Aegi has enough to get past nearly any viable "counter" out there. Gliscor? HP Ice. Mandibuzz? Head Smash.

Yes, because I'm sure aegislash is running all these random coverage moves at the same time to beat two specific counters, giving up its other good movepool options. Sticking moves to beat random counters can be said about anything and is not a very good argument. Oh I'll just switch my azumarill into this conkeldurr and oh it used thunderpunch. I'll switch my heatran into this talonflame and oh it used ground-type natural gift.

 

[Durant]

Time for me to write a brick wall of text about Aegislash. Anyways while Aegislash is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame I don't really see it as broken or too good really. In this post I am gonna be comparing Aegislash to generation 4 Scizor since they shame quite a few similarities and I will show that Aegislash is not banworthy.

First up his overcentralization in the metagame. Thanks to Aegislash quite a few Pokemon like Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross have to run subpar coverage just to hit this threat. Mega Heracross is forced to run Earthquake over Swords Dance which means it can't tear through stall as effectively anymore. Mega Medicham has to run Fire Punch which means that it misses out on other coverage moves like Ice Punch and Thunderpunch. Both of these Pokemon aren't as viable because of Aegislash existing, however this is comparable to generation 4 Scizor. If you had a Steel or Bug type weakness then chances are you weren't all that good in the OU metagame. Pokemon like Cresselia took a massive downfall in viability because of Scizor ( Tyranitar was also a huge problem for Cresselia though ). Scizor also forced some Pokemon to run Hidden Power Fire just for him. Pokemon like Gengar and Alakazam don't really need Hidden Power Fire for many Pokemon aside from Scizor. Other sets like Protect Gengar were made just to scout if Scizor would either go for the Bullet Punch and take you out or Pursuit trap you. Scizor was also overcentralizing but it wasn't considered broken. Also let's look at the Pokemon that have to run specific coverage just for Aegislash. While losing Swords Dance does hurt Mega Heracross he could still function well without it. With 3 moves Heracross would still be threatening to face. Surely no Swords Dance does hurt some of it's viability but it still functions well without it as you can see when playing with Earthquake Heracross versus teams without Aegislash. Now let's take a look at Mega Medicham who runs Fire Punch just for Aegislash. If Aegislash wasn't around then Mega Medicham would probably run Thunderpunch or Ice Punch, however what are the Pokemon you hit with that. Thunderpunch will only really hit Slowbro for more damage since a neutral High Jump Kick outdamages a super effective Thunderpunch against targets like Alomomola and Suicune. If Mega Medicham were to run Ice Punch it would only use that move to get past Landorus and Gliscor really. Similar to Fire Punch these coverage moves are only used for specific targets so what makes Aegislash more overcentralizing then Gliscor or Slowbro. People run Fire Punch because it hits the most common threat compared to other coverage but that doesn't make Aegislash broken really.

Second is King's Shield. Now people for some reason don't like talking about 50/50's but I will talk about it anyway. Surely King's Shield can force mindgames but you have to remember that it also forces mindgames for yourself. For example Aegislash is up against a Mega Tyranitar. If Aegislash uses King's Shield then Mega Tyranitar can have a free turn to set up a Dragon Dance and maybe even sweep your team. However if the Aegislash user doesn't go for King's Shield then said player risks the Tyranitar killing you off with Crunch. Point is that both sides have 50/50 mindgames going on which isn't exactly uncompetetive if both sides have the same chances. Also let's look back at generation 4 Scizor for a second. Let's say Scizor is up against a Gengar and both are at full HP. If the Scizor user uses Bullet Punch then he risks the Gengar player switching out into a counter for free like Gyarados or Skarmory. However if the Scizor player goes for Pursuit then he risks getting outsped and OHKO'd by a Hidden Power Fire coming from the Gengar. Again was Scizor considered overpowered in generation 4, no it wasn't. Also even in a metagame without Aegislash 50/50 scenario's will still exist because they are part of the game. Sometimes you gotta risk hitting 2 Focus Blasts's in a row to win the game or sometime you gotta play mindgames with a Pursuit trapper like Bisharp trying to trap your Latios. Point is 50/50's will always be part of the game even without Aegislash.

Now lastly Aegislash his versatility. Aegislash is a versitile Pokemon no doubt, it has multiple sets it can run effectively and some of it's sets can even beat some of it's what would be counters. For example Head Smash Aegislash can defeat Mandibuzz one on one while Substitute and Toxic Aegislash defeats Chesnaught one on one. Due to the many different sets it can run there are next to no Pokemon that can safely counter every set which could be an argument for Aegislash being broken. With the versatility you can't really compare Aegislash to generation 4 Scizor. Surely Scizor did have a variety in different sets like Swords Dance, Choice Band and Baton Pass but it did have full 100% counters like Skarmory, Zapdos and Gyarados unlike Aegislash who can get past it's counters. However another good comparisation to Aegislash with his versatility is generation 5 Druddigon in RU. Druddigon in RU had literally 0 counters to it who could switch in safely and defeat it 1 on 1. Pokemon like Steelix and Tangrowth who could wall most sets still had to fear the mixed set with Flamethrower which was made specifically to beat those Pokemon. The best way to defeat Druddigon was to know which set it was, Aegislash is similar to this in that if you know what set it runs it is more managable. Now was Druddigon considered broken, according to some people it was but it wasn't banned in RU last generation anyway.

I guess you could say that unlike generation 4 Scizor Aegislash has ways to beat it's usual counters which could make it broken but my point still stands and I don't think it is broken. Aegislash is good but not too good to the point where it has to be banned. DO NOT BAN.

 

[DJ Rain]

I agree with Tricking but if aegi doesn't have king's shield then it would probably drop from ou to uu and kill everything there. Aegi is probably the most versatile thing to ever step in ou but all it does is just prevents other pokes from being good (e.g hawlucha), sure aegi overcentralises alot but I don't find it broken at all, besides, base 150 offenses aren't THAT bad when compared to things like kyu-b's attack or banded talonflame's brave bird (priority not power) and it can't have base 150 for both defenses and offenses at the same time, causing it to either slowing get whittled away in shield forme without KS (after taunt) or die after attacking something like hippo or shadow balling mega pinsir.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

It's not a goddamn lottery, it's called prediction and risk vs reward and it's the same thing you do all the time in a battle. It has nothing to do with RNG like swagger did and this is a stupid argument

50/50's should be banned? Welp, guess we have to ban bisharp and m-mawile now because of sucker punch. And let's ban charizard too because oh it's a 50/50 as to what mega it is. Things that have multiple and different sets like clefable? Nope can't have that, it's a 50/50 as to what set it is! Is that a regular gyara or is it going to mega and change its type? Surely that must be a 50/50!
See where I'm going with this? It's dumb

One can specifically plan for those Pokemon in the team constructing process (although it is still difficult) and formulate tactics during the course of the battle to specifically avoid those 50/50s. But for Aegislash, its bulk, defensive typing, King's Shield, and a powerful Shadow Ball severely limit the number of Pokemon that can take it on since they need good special bulk and non-contact moves that can at least neutrally hit Aegislash, and those that can have predictable moves that forces more 50/50s especially Earthquake as that can give a flying type/levitator a free switch. Thus, Aegislash can force 50/50s in almost any situation due to its characteristics.

===
King's Shield really doesn't force mind games; just do not become desperate and just understand the payoff matrix for your decisions, not only against Aegislash but in other situations. Do not allow yourself to be predicted on crucial turns.

 

[Pyritie]

and those that can have predictable moves that forces more 50/50s especially Earthquake as that can give a flying type/levitator a free switch. Thus, Aegislash can force 50/50s in almost any situation due to its characteristics.

That's not a 50/50, that's just being outpredicted.

Decide based on your team matchup how big of a threat aegislash is and whether or not to use certain moves.

Here's an example: let's say you're in that situation; you've got your scarfchomp against a shield forme aegislash and they're both at HP where one can KO the other. Let's also say that the opponent has something very dangerous that could easily switch into an EQ and you don't want to give it a free turn. However you've also got something that checks/revenges both aegislash and that other threat really well but can't switch into either one.

Will aegi KS to scout but give you a free switch? Will it predict your switch and shadow ball? Will you KO it with EQ? And so on

Would you call this situation a 50/50? It isn't. This is the sort of time where you take what you've learnt about your opponent and figure out which situation is most likely to happen, which has less risks, which has more reward, etc. You know, the stuff you normally do in pokemon battles.

And if you do end up in a situation that is literally a 50/50 (like endgame 1v1 low HP sucker punch shenanigans), then maybe if you played better you wouldnt've ended up in that situation. If you're constantly ending up in situations where you have no idea but to just guess and randomly hit a button because you think it's a 50/50 then maybe you just need to git gud.

 

[Wizarus]

I'm not really understanding the "pick your poison" argument, since the poisons in question aren't equally harmful. It's like picking something that would give you a mild cold, over something that will leave you walking along the edge of death. I'm pretty sure most people would be willing to drink back-to-back doses of the former before picking the latter. It's not really much of a choice at all.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Does anybody want to run Rapid Spin on Excadrill? No, but they just do. And earthquake is good coverage anyway. And the 50/50s are 50/25s or even 50/0s many times.


Shadow Ball has its switch ins. Bisharp, a good check, can switch in either way and be marginally safe.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 107-126 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 632-743 (195 - 229.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 764-899 (235.8 - 277.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And so are some other Dark checks. And some just will survive.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 183-216 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 566-668 (174.6 - 206.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And EQ doesnt make contact.

As far as the impact goes, some people here haven't even tried. Just keep a strong check like Bisharp ready, and maybe something for switch-ins, maybe some fodder. And if you can determine the set, you can switch well. An appropriate wall, especially with Will-O-Wisp, can switch in and cripple/force out aegis.

You do realize aegislash-blade has terrible defenses....your more likely to be attacking the shield which can always live the earthquake on that chomp and bisharps sucker. It appears to me like your trying to put aegislash in the worse possible check and can't even switch in if aegislash uses sacred sword, if anything bisharp is a really bad one and is only a check because of it. But yeah do these calcs on the shield.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also you do realize if someone uses max speed+ aegislash or something fancy like that, or even a mispredict happens than that "stong check" of yours just died. The only pokemon that can like ohko aegislash's shield are like the 2 best wallbreakers in the game using their stab attacks (there are some others but are less often seen), landorus and charizard y.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

You do realize aegislash-blade has terrible defenses....your more likely to be attacking the shield which can always live the earthquake on that chomp and bisharps sucker. It appears to me like your trying to put aegislash in the worse possible check and can't even switch in if aegislash uses sacred sword, if anything bisharp is a really bad one and is only a check because of it. But yeah do these calcs on the shield.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also you do realize if someone uses max speed+ aegislash or something fancy like that, or even a mispredict happens than that "stong check" of yours just died. The only pokemon that can like ohko aegislash's shield are like the 2 best wallbreakers in the game using their stab attacks (there are some others but are less often seen), landorus and charizard y.

Max speed aegslash to outspeed just to kill bisharp and sacrifice bulk? Seems legit.. I mean it ain't like max speed aegislash will ever be in this situation:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (98.4 - 116.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

It ain't happening.. max speed slash is yet another gimmicky set just to surprise a would be counter.. which can back fire majorly like mandibuzz roost/recoil stalling head smash..

Besides... lets say this gimmicky max speed aegislash becomes a thing if bisharp becomes more commonly used.. players will just run jolly nature on their bisharp and that's the end of that story. Max speed slash also run life orb so if it does live the sucker punch it's not going to live long since it doesn't have recovery.. mission still accomplished.

 

[InfinityX000]

You do realize aegislash-blade has terrible defenses....your more likely to be attacking the shield which can always live the earthquake on that chomp and bisharps sucker. It appears to me like your trying to put aegislash in the worse possible check and can't even switch in if aegislash uses sacred sword, if anything bisharp is a really bad one and is only a check because of it. But yeah do these calcs on the shield.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also you do realize if someone uses max speed+ aegislash or something fancy like that, or even a mispredict happens than that "stong check" of yours just died. The only pokemon that can like ohko aegislash's shield are like the 2 best wallbreakers in the game using their stab attacks (there are some others but are less often seen), landorus and charizard y.

The point of the blade, and the new calcs, are in another post.

Max speed aegslash to outspeed just to kill bisharp and sacrifice bulk? Seems legit.. I mean it ain't like max speed aegislash will ever be in this situation:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (98.4 - 116.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

It ain't happening.. max speed slash is yet another gimmicky set just to surprise a would be counter.. which can back fire majorly like mandibuzz roost/recoil stalling head smash..

Besides... lets say this gimmicky max speed aegislash becomes a thing if bisharp becomes more commonly used.. players will just run jolly nature on their bisharp and that's the end of that story.

I was using the fast set. And sucker punch not needed if it was bulky, cuz then Knock Off would work.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

[Toljik]

personally, I was originally ALL for the aeigislash ban moreso than anyone. But after listening to 49 pages of discussion, my perspective has completely changed, and I honestly think all these pro-ban arguments are silly conjecture. Aegislash is an amazing, useful, and definetly centralizing mon, that's a fact. But honestly, is that even grounds for a ban? He seems no different than a really good mon, like scizor used to be. The 50/50 arguments are honestly BS now, and the part about mons having to run coverage to hit it is no different than other top tier mons either.

Also, while the topics still on my mind, IF aegislash is banned, pinsir shouldn't be running CC, as people have stated before, it doesn't beat anything before. It should either keep running eq for mega mawile or even consider running stone edge to dunk zapdos and thundy on the switch.

Scizor was an amazing Pokemon in Gen 5, true, but also a pretty one dimensional one. The same Pokemon that check its Swords Dance set can also handle its banded set.

Aegislash is a lot more versatile and there a are much smaller list of Pokemon that can check it consistently. As I've said before, it has a great deal of control over what counters it. It has the defenses of Deoxys-D and the offenses of Deoxys-N, perfect coverage with two moves, the two best types in the game, the ability to go physical, special, mixed, or defensive, as well as the ability to sweep, pivot or wallbreak.

 

[CyclicCompound]

Max speed aegslash to outspeed just to kill bisharp and sacrifice bulk? Seems legit.. I mean it ain't like max speed aegislash will ever be in this situation:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (98.4 - 116.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

It ain't happening.. max speed slash is yet another gimmicky set just to surprise a would be counter.. which can back fire majorly like mandibuzz roost/recoil stalling head smash..

Besides... lets say this gimmicky max speed aegislash becomes a thing if bisharp becomes more commonly used.. players will just run jolly nature on their bisharp and that's the end of that story.

Errr... Max Speed Aegislash IS a viable and common enough set, I don't know what you're talking about. The reason it works is that against most Aegislash sets, Bisharp would rather Knock Off or Pursuit because the majority of Aegislash will switch out into a Bisharp check rather than stay in, and hitting Aegislash with Pursuit or the switch-in with Knock Off is far more beneficial than a useless Sucker Punch, which could potentially give up enough momentum to seriously shift the direction of the game seeing as switching in or out of Bisharp is often a high-risk, high-reward scenario.

So yeah, it's not a "gimmicky" set at all, it's actually quite good and it's certainly not something to be dismissed as either uncommon OR unviable. While the speed creep can be true, keep in mind that it's not the most common Aegislash spread by any stretch so Bisharp prefers Adamant in most cases anyway.

 

[yoman5]

Having lure sets does not make a pokemon broken. Running strange or subpar moves to kill specific things that usually come in on it is an old tactic thats generally used to poke holes in the other team to help an ally sweep/clean. Payback forretress got used to nail spinblockers on the switch in before defog existed. It wasnt because forretress was broken, but because people wanted to bait in spinblockers (that were also usually defensive stops to certain threats) and take them out of the picture for guarunteed rapid spins and likely an easier sweep later in the game. Having a lure set does NOT mean a pokemon is broken, it just adds a niche in their uses. Aegis has 2 main sets, subtoxic and grinder, with lure sets and stancedance as niche picks, but there are other mons with more sets if we're arguing versatility here (thundy, charizard with 2 mevos, dnite, keldeo, tyranitar). Aegis isnt comparable to a threat like lucario who has 2 angles to hit equally hard from and have VASTLY different answers to them and isnt comparable in the support clause to other ubers mons with a large tendency to give up free turns. Yes he can uninvestedly rack up damage and force repeated switches, but so can a lot of other mons. Yes he can switch in on a lot, but so can many other mons. No I don't believe aegislash is broken.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Errr... Max Speed Aegislash IS a viable and common enough set, I don't know what you're talking about. The reason it works is that against most Aegislash sets, Bisharp would rather Knock Off or Pursuit because the majority of Aegislash will switch out into a Bisharp check rather than stay in, and hitting Aegislash with Pursuit or the switch-in with Knock Off is far more beneficial than a useless Sucker Punch, which could potentially give up enough momentum to seriously shift the direction of the game seeing as switching in or out of Bisharp is often a high-risk, high-reward scenario.

So yeah, it's not a "gimmicky" set at all, it's actually quite good and it's certainly not something to be dismissed as either uncommon OR unviable. While the speed creep can be true, keep in mind that it's not the most common Aegislash spread by any stretch so Bisharp prefers Adamant in most cases anyway.

And Like I said.. bisharp will just run jolly if the gimmicky set becomes a thing, and knock off.. Those sets run life orb so even if sucker punch is spammed and it lives while bisharp dies.. it's not living very long. Lose your bulk to handle 1 check and die anyway.. seems pointless IMO.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (+Life orb recoil on slash)

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 252-296 (96.5 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (+Life orb recoil on slash)

252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 270-320 (69.9 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 374-444 (143.2 - 170.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Note it will be in blade forme due to attacking first..)

Running max speed and no HP just adds to the checks and counter list doesn't it?

 

[InfinityX000]

And Like I said.. bisharp will just run jolly if the gimmicky set becomes a thing, and knock off.. Those sets run life orb so even if sucker punch is spammed and it lives while bisharp dies.. it's not living very long. Lose your bulk to handle 1 check and die anyway.. seems pointless IMO.

You are missing the point, and Bish won't die if free switch in, if not then bish has a low chance to die. And, as CyclicCompound pointed out, the fast set is viable. again, remember that against the bulky set, bish outspeeds, and Knock Off will OHKO or damage any switch in. Pursuit is a risk, but that will kill Aegis if Aegis switches. But my point is, Bisharp checks all sets. Think about it. It resists Shadow Sneak, can outspeed bulky set, can prio fast set, and don't get me started on SubToxic. And bish isn't the only pokemon, it is just an example.

 

[Toljik]

You are missing the point, and Bish won't die if free switch in, if not then bish has a low chance to die. And, as CyclicCompound pointed out, the fast set is viable. again, remember that against the bulky set, bish outspeeds, and Knock Off will OHKO or damage any switch in. Pursuit is a risk, but that will kill Aegis if Aegis switches. But my point is, Bisharp checks all sets. Think about it. It resists Shadow Sneak, can outspeed bulky set, can prio fast set, and don't get me started on SubToxic. And bish isn't the only pokemon, it is just an example.

If Bisharp is going to use Knock Off to defeat Aegislash, Aegislash is better off running Colbur Berry.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

You are missing the point, and Bish won't die if free switch in, if not then bish has a low chance to die. And, as CyclicCompound pointed out, the fast set is viable. again, remember that against the bulky set, bish outspeeds, and Knock Off will OHKO or damage any switch in. Pursuit is a risk, but that will kill Aegis if Aegis switches. But my point is, Bisharp checks all sets. Think about it. It resists Shadow Sneak, can outspeed bulky set, can prio fast set, and don't get me started on SubToxic.

My point is, alot of players are mentioning how viable the max speed SD+3 moves set aegislash is..

People ran head smash to kill mandibuzz..

252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 330-390 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That recoil is going to hurt.. bad.. and then mandibuzz will just roost it off and stall and kill both of them.. or go straight for a foul play. (btw I completely forgot to mention how you won't even be flying type the turn you roost.. so head smash will do even less!)

Point is.. head smash was ran to kill 1 check.. and that check still has a way to work around it.

Max speed aegislash is ran to handle 1 check.. and that's bisharp, who'm can just run jolly nature to outspeed if it becomes eversocommon, and sucker punch in combination of him getting live orb damage. Bisharp can even pull 50/50 mindgames with sucker punch or sword's dance and take advantage of aegislash to sweep..

Both these gimmicky sets that hinder his bulk, the most important thing about him, and make him become dead weight to anything else (They don't even run king's shield! Stuck in blade and it's priority is easy to outspeed with yours..)

 

[InfinityX000]

If Bisharp is going to use Knock Off to defeat Aegislash, Aegislash is better off running Colbur Berry.

I have only ever seen Aegis with Life Orb. If it runs colbur berry, then other checks will take Bisharp's place as a switch in, and they won't even need to resist as long as they have any SpD. Aegis always runs Life Orb, or maybe occasional Weakness Policy.

 

[Max Carvalho]

If Bisharp is going to use Knock Off to defeat Aegislash, Aegislash is better off running Colbur Berry.

No Aegislash is better with Leftovers or Life Orb. EDIT: Just to make it clear, after Stealth Rock Bisharp guarantees the KO. (I mean without Colbur berry.)

 

[Toljik]

I have only ever seen Aegis with Life Orb. If it runs colbur berry, then other checks will take Bisharp's place as a switch in, and they won't even need to resist as long as they have any SpD. Aegis always runs Life Orb, or maybe occasional Weakness Policy.

It's true that Aegislash will have other checks, but if the Aegislash user chooses, Bisharp does not have to be a check to it. The new threats can be taken care of Aegislash's teammates. Or Aegislash could run Air Balloon so its teammates aren't as pressured to defeat Garchomp. Or it could stick to the standard Life Orb set.

No Aegislash is better with Leftovers or Life Orb.

That isn't the point. Aegislash has better sets, but if your team can handle Aegislash's other checks, but not Bisharp, Aegislash itself can fill that hole.

 

[InfinityX000]

My point is, alot of players are mentioning how viable the max speed SD+3 moves set aegislash is..

People ran head smash to kill mandibuzz..

252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 330-390 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That recoil is going to hurt.. bad.. and then mandibuzz will just roost it off and stall and kill both of them.. or go straight for a foul play. (btw I completely forgot to mention how you won't even be flying type the turn you roost.. so head smash will do even less!)

Point is.. head smash was ran to kill 1 check.. and that check still has a way to work around it.

Max speed aegislash is ran to handle 1 check.. and that's bisharp, who'm can just run jolly nature to outspeed if it becomes eversocommon, and sucker punch in combination of him getting live orb damage. Bisharp can even pull 50/50 mindgames with sucker punch or sword's dance and take advantage of aegislash to sweep..

Both these gimmicky sets that hinder his bulk, the most important thing about him, and make him become dead weight to anything else (They don't even run king's shield! Stuck in blade and it's priority is easy to outspeed with yours..)

My point is it's not just the fast set that works. I understand your point about the bad sets. Just that people have already posted Bish checking bulky set.

 

[Shadowmana9]

You're grasping for straws if you're debating whether things are 50/50s, or Aegislash's pseudo-720 BST, or whether Aegislash causes numerous 50/50s (fact), or whether Aegislash is the largest centralizing force (fact), the competitiveness of 50/50s (nonexistent), or that something will take its place as the primary centralizing force of the tier (false, irrelevant), or whether the meta will shift to the more offensive or defensive (irrelevant), or that Pokemon are running coverage solely for Aegislash (fact), or that it has checks (mostly irrelevant).

I think you may be confusing fact with conjecture. There have been many posts, as far as I can tell, that have put forth good reason to think that Aegislash's 50/50's are no different nor more numerous than those natural occurrences of game mechanics, that the 5050's are competitive because they are seldom actual 50/50's, that Aegislash effect on the metagame as a whole in a positive way by limiting defensive and offensive tactics. It is also, just not true that pokemon run EQ, knock-off etc. just for Aegislash, and even if it were it is an irrelevant fact that pokemon must run coverage moves for other pokemon. For instance, HP ice was used in previous generations just to hit the three dragon powerhouses.