Of course it's good, but you shouldn't be forced to run it on 90% of teams and it can't really switch into misdreavus
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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Foongus comes in on Shell Smash - Spore + Giga Drain
Cottonee comes in on Shell Smash - Encore + Giga Drain
Ferroseed comes in on Shell Smash - Thunder Wave + Bullet Seed
I thought Foongus was A rank now ;;
The thing is, there is no need to switch into +2 Tirtouga, because to be at +2, Tirtouga needs to have set up first; it can't set up Shell Smash and use Waterfall in the same turn. This means that its checks will be able to switch in for free as it sets up, so due to its nature as a set-up Pokemon, it NEEDS to be able to OHKO everything in sight, as opposed to something like Murkrow or Meditite, who do not need to set up, and as such, can settle for a 2HKO.
And of course Tirtouga can deal decent damage at +2; the issue is, so can every other win condition. The point of a win condition is to deal solid damage after setting up, and Tirtouga is actually quite underwhelming in that regard compared to Omanyte or Zigzagoon.
Tirtouga is fairly difficult to deal with once it's set up, but it's not especially difficult; and of course, before it sets up, it's a bit underwhelming. Basically, Shell Smash Tirtouga is fairly average as a win condition and lacks utility before late-game, with its only redeeming point being its ability to avoid OHKOs, something that requires support to take advantage of, and which isn't actually that notable due to its drawbacks.
Another problem with that Complex ban is that it has to apply to all the pokemon.
Dwebble and Binnacle (I think e_e) have to be broken aswell with that combination. You can't be biased and apply it because of Tirtouga. Since it's not broken with Dwebble (imo), you would have to ban Tirtouga.
Just giving another reason why that complex wouldn't work.
Dwebble and Binnacle (I think e_e) have to be broken aswell with that combination. You can't be biased and apply it because of Tirtouga. Since it's not broken with Dwebble (imo), you would have to ban Tirtouga.
Just giving another reason why that complex wouldn't work.
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Binacle doesn't have Sturdy.
But yes I agree, it doesn't make sense that there should be a complex ban just because a Pokémon is "broken" (trust me Tirtouga isn't broken, I don't want to repeat what other people said about Pokémon that counter it but they're numerous and viable).
Going back a little bit, I faced a bunch of Fletchling's on my ladder run and they were pretty manageable. I in particular used a TBolt Missy or Magnemite and it couldn't really do anything. And according to calcs a 110 BP Acrobatics only KOes Timburr 6.3% of the time, who just Drain Punch + Mach Punch (though this happened fewer times because Timburr wasn't at full a lot). Uninvested Fletchling only has 12 Speed and is really squishy, so if you make it so Arcobatics isn't very useful it's easy to kill or force a switch. Magnemite can just Volt Switch, and switching into Missy is hard.
Speaking of Missy though, its bulk is a potential problem. Like you can stay in vs. Knock Off and use Will-O-Wisp to cripple Pawniard or Mienfoo or something. Sure the accuracy is low, but over a lot of games (IE on the ladder) you are still going to get that crucial burn to turn into a win, which is ultimately what I did. After that you can pretty much switch anything in and still have a 40% Missy ready to clean up later.
Speaking of Missy though, its bulk is a potential problem. Like you can stay in vs. Knock Off and use Will-O-Wisp to cripple Pawniard or Mienfoo or something. Sure the accuracy is low, but over a lot of games (IE on the ladder) you are still going to get that crucial burn to turn into a win, which is ultimately what I did. After that you can pretty much switch anything in and still have a 40% Missy ready to clean up later.
Apologies if this is the wrong area for this, but I tried searching through this subforum for Taillow w/ Boomburst in LC and it came up with minimal results, swamped in a constant and seemingly neverending argument of attack based Taillow vs. Fletchling.
I'm posting solely to gain information on the (large) possibility of Boomburst Taillow being discussed in-depth. Again, I tried searching for those two keywords, but I didn't get the results I'm looking for.
Thanks.
I'm posting solely to gain information on the (large) possibility of Boomburst Taillow being discussed in-depth. Again, I tried searching for those two keywords, but I didn't get the results I'm looking for.
Thanks.
Fletchling is just too good in LC. It hinders team building so much. I feel i HAVE to put a chinchou or a magnemite on my team. Even then those are trapped or pressured by any good Fletchling team paired with a Diglett or even HP Ground Chinchou and the like. It just limits building and centralizes the meta game so it deserves a suspect
I've never played much LC but I've been trying to get reqs a bit and I started to enjoy the meta.
I've found Misdreavus to be extremely powerful in the metagame. It hits hard before setting up, and after a Nasty Plot boost, it can be near impossible to stop without a Sucker Punch user (especially if you run Substitute). The funny thing is, you set up a Substitute on a switch, use Nasty Plot, and go to town. If you get low on HP, Berry Juice kicks in and you can just keep spamming Substitute and Shadow Ball. Also, while weak, HP Fighting allows it to get around its counters to an extent (I wish it was still 70 Base Power but whatever).
Anyways that's just my two cents.
EDIT: @above fletchling can use Overheat to get past Magnemite to an extent
I've found Misdreavus to be extremely powerful in the metagame. It hits hard before setting up, and after a Nasty Plot boost, it can be near impossible to stop without a Sucker Punch user (especially if you run Substitute). The funny thing is, you set up a Substitute on a switch, use Nasty Plot, and go to town. If you get low on HP, Berry Juice kicks in and you can just keep spamming Substitute and Shadow Ball. Also, while weak, HP Fighting allows it to get around its counters to an extent (I wish it was still 70 Base Power but whatever).
Anyways that's just my two cents.
EDIT: @above fletchling can use Overheat to get past Magnemite to an extent
Sorry but Chinchou and Magnemite are not the only Fletchling counters.
refer to this post by Artemisa http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ominate-post-188.3505710/page-10#post-5612583
for a list of things that can take on the FletchDig combination. There are more Pokemon that can take on Fletchling without Diglett
refer to this post by Artemisa http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ominate-post-188.3505710/page-10#post-5612583
for a list of things that can take on the FletchDig combination. There are more Pokemon that can take on Fletchling without Diglett
Guys, as much as I dislike restricting discussion, can we please stop acting like Fletchling doesn't have counters? Tirt, Archen, chincjou, magnemite, and so much more are really good for handling fetch. The issue isn't brokenness, but a matter of the meta being centralized around a single actor to an absurd event
Yeah there are some that aren't extremely vague.
Careful how you use Revenge Killing and "basic prediction" when suspecting. The former can be applied to many offensive mons depending on the situation, in this situation revenging can help stop many mons for example Scraggy. (Note: I'm not saying Scraggy is broken in any way or with fletchling in the game it stop Scraggy from becoming broken) Being an extremely potent revenge killer doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing and I personally don't think revenge killing should be used as a strong point in any suspect. Also look at the term revenge killing, you are implying you have to fodder something to bring it in.
The latter, no matter how basic the prediction is, it's not 100% assured that things will go your way. I can easily say I predict the overheat.
Careful how you use Revenge Killing and "basic prediction" when suspecting. The former can be applied to many offensive mons depending on the situation, in this situation revenging can help stop many mons for example Scraggy. (Note: I'm not saying Scraggy is broken in any way or with fletchling in the game it stop Scraggy from becoming broken) Being an extremely potent revenge killer doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing and I personally don't think revenge killing should be used as a strong point in any suspect. Also look at the term revenge killing, you are implying you have to fodder something to bring it in.
The latter, no matter how basic the prediction is, it's not 100% assured that things will go your way. I can easily say I predict the overheat.
I do not think Fletchling is much a problem, has it a ton of viable checks and counters that don't really restrict teambuilding because they can serve other purposes. For example, a defensive core in foongus+ defensive tirtouga has no problem handling fletch as well as other pokemon. Tirtouga can handle fletch most of time and can handle diglett, thus beating the fletchdig core. However, Missy on the other hand has only 4 checks. Pawniard, Houndour, Carvanha, and Stunky. None of them can switch in safely as all of them fear will-o-wisp and 3/4 of them fear HP fight. This means that Missy can easily bypass it's checks without forcing it to run moves that are out of the ordinary of its orginal moveset. Unlike fletchling, who needs to run apicot berry to beat Tirtouga. Missy can also beat its counters. Missy can easily pick off a weakned porygon or spritzee easily subplot them. Basically, with knock off support Missy can rip through teams and even without it. Sure, Fletch is overcentralizing, but i dont think it really restricts teambuilding and forces you to run Pawniard like Missy.
yeah what even are porygon, cottonee, lickitung, munchlax, spritzee, ferroseed, timburr, vullaby, fletchling, elekid, tentacool, chespin, and croagunk
nope only four checks
Missy has also porygon as a check (which can be considered a counter). Btw fletchling is centralizing because it can set up on lots of pokemon thanks to the lack of items and the conseguent nerf of knock off. So if you don't have tirtouga (and no hp grass fletchling - i've seen that too lol -) you can't check a boosted fletchling and you get an easy sweep if there are stealth rocks setted. btw with fletch banned, chlorophyll users will be more threatening. So i'm going to vote for both bans even if I have never had any problems checking these threats: guys, Porygon is the way lol
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Yeah, HP grass fletchling totally isn't a thing. Neither is overheat/natural gift fletch either. There are no counters because of all the movesets it can run, despite some being labelled as "gimmicks" (which I totally disagree with). The closest thing you can get to a counter is resttalk evio chinch, which however is incredibly easy to deal with depending on the rest of the team.
Evio Sd tirt still beats hp grass and stuff like archen and chou still win. Nobody runs natural gift any more because fetch has better things to do than act as a bad one time lure that can't effectively fulfill its purpose.
We can't just claim that something lacks counters because of obscure move x.
We can't just claim that something lacks counters because of obscure move x.
Evio tirt can't switch into HP grass twice assuming SR, so GG bulky tirt. And why do people say natural gift is shit? Fletch is amazing at forcing switches, so even if the team lacks the check that natural gift is supposed to hit, Fletch can easily remove the berry and proceed to spam acrobatics. I feel like people who say natural gift fletch is bad are just bandwagoning, kind of like with the whole "omg Aipom iz bad dont use him" thing. And js, rock/water berry KOs chen after SR. So no, that still doesn't win. And even if you discount natural gift, steel wing still beats archen. Resttalk chou is the only chou that beats Fletch most of the time. BJ is screwed by apicot berry, regular evio is fucked by apicot/hp grass from repeatedly switching in. If a move allows a mon to break past its checks, then how exactly is it bad and "obscure"?
A move is "obscure" because there always has to be a standard set. The standard set for Fletchling is more or less Swords Dance / Acrobatics / Roost / [U-turn / Overheat] while Steel Wing, Natural Gift, and Hidden power coverage are all non-standard. Therefore they are all labelled as "Other Options." It is for the same reason that HP Fighting Foongus is considered a gimmick, regardless of if it beats Pawniard. It is forgoeing an otherwise better move that would be more useful more often. Foongus would much rather run something like Clear Smog or Stun Spore, but HP Fight allows it to completely get rid of something threatening.
Err what are you on about TCR why are you bringing up hp fight foongus which btw is pretty standard these days. You've been QCing too much if you start saying stuff like there has to be a standard set. End of the day, fletchling had a variety of options to bypass its counters
No, all of these aren't checks. Checks are pokemon that can't swtch in freely but can kill. Chespin can only switch into shadow ball but can do much back, and Croagunk is 2hko by shadow ball, tentacruel dies by tbolt and cant do much back as well. Ferroseed can be beaten by HP fight and easily worn down by lack of recovery. Outside of pursuit munchlax can do shit, vullaby cant come in freely either being weak to dgleam and tbolt. Fletchling cant come in either being tbolt weak and cant kill with acrobatics. Outside of this are spritzee, porygon, which i said can be easily knocked off and cleaned up. Lickitung is of course in the same boat. Only check i didnt mention was Elekid which cant kill with tbolt anyway. You know the point im trying to say, Missy is hard af to switch into and after these pokes have lost their evios or statused they can easily be cleaned up. No way, you are going to tell me that Chespin is a check to Missy.
MoxieInfinite
Banned deucer.
i found a hacker what do we do with this,,
wtf stop, obviously tentacool cant beat missy 1v1 missy can kill tenta with tbolt not an OHKO but it cant come in safely and is Killed afterwards. Stop trying to prove somebody wrong and listen. Tenta cant come in freely, and cant do shit. Understand that missy is strong enough, fast enough, and has a movepool large enough to bypass its checks and counters. Of course maybe not with full health, but with knock off pokes like mienfoo and timburr around Missy can just do the rest.
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