Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Pyritie

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I have tried him, and I dont see what he has over Scizor as a bulky Bug/Steel type.
A ground attack, immunity to powder moves (and hail), is a better AV user than scizor, and is great in trick room.

Yes, scizor is generally better, which is why scizor's in A+/B+ and excavalier's down in C.
 
Maybe an increase for Suicune could be something good.

With it's impressing bulk he is a good late game sweeper, meanwhile the real counters (Thundurus, Clefable, Slowbro, trickers) that must be keep off to let Suicune do his work are really uncommon, considering the fact that most of the checks are left for dead after a scald burn or forced to PP war in which pressure gives Suicune an important advantage...

Moreover, Suicune can set up on a lot of opponents as Mamoswine, Landorus, Heatran, Excadrill, Hippodown, Terrakion, Gliscor... and once the first calm mind step is done it becomes difficult to check Suicune effectively.

Sorry for the mistakes if there are some, I'm french.
 
Maybe an increase for Suicune could be something good.

With it's impressing bulk he is a good late game sweeper, meanwhile the real counters (Thundurus, Clefable, Slowbro, trickers) that must be keep off to let Suicune do his work are really uncommon, considering the fact that most of the checks are left for dead after a scald burn or forced to PP war in which pressure gives Suicune an important advantage...

Moreover, Suicune can set up on a lot of opponents as Mamoswine, Landorus, Heatran, Excadrill, Hippodown, Terrakion, Gliscor... and once the first calm mind step is done it becomes difficult to check Suicune effectively.

Sorry for the mistakes if there are some, I'm french.

Magic Guard Clefable and Slowbro aren't counters. Suicune wins the CM war against Clefable (assuming it isn't Unaware, usually a safe bet), and Slowbro can't do anything to Suicune, so is more setup fodder. Some better checks or counters are water immunities and Leech Seeders. Also, how are you saying Thundurus and Clefable are really uncommon? 0.o They're some of the most dominant pokemon in OU.


Anyway, I disagree with a rise in Suicune. It's a good pokemon that can often auto-win against certain teams, and usually just needs one or 2 checks removed to sweep, while still being a good bulky water and pivot throughout a match. However, so much stuff can take advantage of it and it requires so much time to set up (in my experience, it can need 3+ turns to set up to a reasonable power level) that it can end up dead weight against offensive teams. Suicune crumples to strong offensive pressure.

Edit: After thinking on it a bit more, I'm not so sure I'd be completely against a rise in Suicune. Including what I said earlier, it's more useful than the likes of Conkeldurr or Gothitelle and makes for a good check to many of OU's potent physical attackers such as Excadrill or Tyranitar, and can give stall a big headache if they lose Mega Venusaur. What're some other opinions?
 
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If Slowbro have a choice item, it can trick you, if it is the calm mind set psyshock is enough to win the 1vs1 against crocune. I was thinking about unaware Clefable to tell the truth.

By uncommon I meant that the number of solid counters is low, it was probably not the best word for it...

Suicune is in my main team since at least 50 battles and I can affirm that Cune isn't a dead weight against offensive teams as it always checks at least one / two of the threats and in most of the cases more than 3 after 1 calm mind. Cune's ability to spread burn is also annoying for most of the classic physical sweepers, much of them needing at least 3 turns to break Suicune's stall, which offers good chances to burn.
 
If Slowbro have a choice item, it can trick you, if it is the calm mind set psyshock is enough to win the 1vs1 against crocune. I was thinking about unaware Clefable to tell the truth.

By uncommon I meant that the number of solid counters is low, it was probably not the best word for it...

Suicune is in my main team since at least 50 battles and I can affirm that Cune isn't a dead weight against offensive teams as it always checks at least one / two of the threats and in most of the cases more than 3 after 1 calm mind. Cune's ability to spread burn is also annoying for most of the classic physical sweepers, much of them needing at least 3 turns to break Suicune's stall, which offers good chances to burn.

I wasn't aware choice+trick or calm mind Slowbro was in any way common, or even a thing. Is it really? But I suppose such sets could get annoying to Suicune.

Remember, I said "can be" dead weight against offense, not necessarily is. Suicune certainly checks many physical attackers, but can be worn down through offensive pressure, and often cannot get the time it needs to set up against opponents with more attacking power.

I'm not absolutely against Suicune moving up, but all these arguments are already known, and are why it's B Rank. I believe it was requested rank change suggestions be done with comparisons to pokemon in the suggested rank. What makes Suicune on par with other B+ Rank pokemon?
 
Lower ranks needed a rework so myself and a few others discussed the criteria for C / D ranked mons as well as the current Pokemon in those ranks. I understand that some of you might disagree with these changes, but for the good of the community and for the sake of cleaning up I had to make these. Note that there are obviously other changes as well, but the main focus is on C / D.

Scolipede: A- ---> B+
Mega Heracross: B ---> B+
Azelf: Unranked ---> C+
Sharpedo: C+ ---> C-
Haxorus: C+ ---> C-
Blissey: C ---> D
Tangrowth: C ---> C-
Thundurus-T: C- ---> C+
Snorlax: D ---> Unranked
Toxicroak: D ---> Unranked
Meloetta: D ---> Unranked
Weezing: Unranked ---> D rank
Alakazam: C+ --> C
Krookodile: C+ --> C
Omastar: C+ --> C
Seismitoad: C+ ---> C
Zygarde: C+ --> C
Banette (Mega): C --> D
Escavalier: C --> Unranked
Magnezone: C ---> C+
Salamence: C ---> C-
Tornadus: C --> C-
Gardevoir: C- ---> Unranked
Kyurem: C- ---> Unranked
Mantine: C- ---> D
Moltres: C- ---> D
Roserade: C- ---> D
Cloyster --> unranked
Cofagrigus --> unranked
Jirachi: D ---> unranked
Reuniclus: D ---> unranked

Scolipede
- it was honestly only moved up for its irreplaceable slot on BP, but that is now dead. Its LO set is still great and quick pass is as well so it will be pushed down to B+.

Mega Heracross - this thing literally bends Stall over backwards. Threats that hit hard and have a decently large amount of coverage generally trouble stall and Mega Heracross is no different. It is also insanely great against HO teams if paired with Sticky Web given that most Pokemon commonly found on this archetype are frail.

Azelf - a very solid replacement to Deoxys on HO teams as it can perform as a hazards suicide lead as well as a weather setting lead. It's at a convenient speed tier as weel, out speeding most opposing leads outside of Prankster or priority users.

Sharpedo - doesn't even come close to sweeping (which is the only things it's supposed to do) given that many things resist it's STAB or out speed it. Priority is also everywhere so Speed Boost doesn't help out as much as it would seem.

Haxorus - I feel for this poke, it's horribly outclassed in anything it tries to do and has a very, very time finding a slot on a competitive team.

Blissey - fat fuck...outclassed by Chansey in almost every way, but can still have a chance against Knock Off Landorus so it has enough of a niche to remain listed.

Tangrowth - pretty outclassed but does have a small niche in that it can wall some key threats. Excadrill, Garchomp and with AV it fairs quite well against Lati@s. Plus Regenerator is a perk to a defensive mon without many forms of recovery.

Thundurus-Therian - much better than people give it credit for, it provides an electric immunity for rain teams and given the right support can sweep with a DD set.

Weezing - might come as a bit of a shock to some of you, but it provides a solid check to all of Mega Mawile's common sets. If you can check an S rated threat as well as other top tier mons, you can have a rank of D.

Alakazam - getting less and less relevant as time goes on unfortunately. Sash set is the only thing it has over its mega evolution (much like Banded Scizor to its mega).

Krookadile - Intimidate and a fast Taunt on a wall is useful just as Foul Play and Dark typing. These attributes are good enough for C rank, but nothing higher.

Omastar - it sees more play on Pokebattle than on smogon and it's almost never used there...it has a cool sash hazards lead and can be a nice rain abuser if you prefer to run a mon with less coverage and a less than ideal secondary STAB over Kabutops and Kingdra.

Seismitoad - in the same boat as Omastar tbh in that it's a weaker Swift Swim user than others. It provides SR and an Electric immunity in Ground typing, but hits a bit too soft to be considered a C+ threat.

Zygarde - just outclassed a bit by dragons, it has Coil which is chill but it will more often than not sit the bench while the other dragons play (fit in the sports reference hehe bwoi).

Mega Banette - lost a bit of its viability when Deoxys got banned, but still can be a nice utility Pokemon with Knock Off and Prankster Destiny Bond.

Magnezone - receives a ton more usage on the high end of the ladder and in tours for its ability to trap Steel types and can loosely check bird spam.

Salamence - more outclassed pokes :/ refer to Zygarde and Haxorus for reasoning as they pretty much sum it up. Has Moxie + DD which can sweep given the right team, but is generally too heavy for his teammates to carry (like user Halcyon.).

Tornadus - still effective on rain teams and might even see more usage now that Deoxys is gone, but for now we have to go based off of its current state which is "getting less relavant".

Mantine - still performs amazingly for me, but that might be based on player skill level and not the Pokemon itself. This poke has been discussed in length a couple pages back so users may scroll back to find reasoning.

Moltres - has nice reliable recovery and Will-o-Wisp for a defensive set and STAB Hurricane and Fire Blast for offensive sets. It can hit hard against some teams, but too many are prepared. On top of that having a wall x4 weak to rocks? No thanks.

Roserade - Spikes lead is cool as well as offensive Rest / Natural Cure, providing a good Rotom-Wash counter. In practice it plays out much worse than it seems it would on paper. It loses to a great deal of Defog users and faces competition from Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss in its typing or as a Rotom-Wash check / counter.

Snorlax, Toxicroak, Meloetta, Escavalier, Gardevoir, Kyurem, Cloyster, Jirachi, Reuniclus - not to be used on serious teams, too small of a niche to be considered, outclassed at everything, etc.

- OUTL
 
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I have a few disagreements with the above suggestions:

Krookodile is deserving of C+ in my opinion. It is a solid check to Aegislash even though Toxic, Flash Cannon, and Jolly Swords Dance are troublesome to it, and access to Foul Play is cool (as you pointed out) for smacking offensive threats without needing to invest in any Attack. It also has a great match-up with Sand Rush teams since it beats Exca and TTar 1-1 with Earthquake. It's also resistant to SR, a very nice attribute for a wall. It doesn't check as much as I would like, but offers enough to warrant a C+ rankings IMO.

I also disagree on Omastar, which is actually far stronger than Kingdra as a special attacker (not weaker as you claim) & therefore carves itself an excellent niche as a rain wallbreaker that can lure & destroy very threatening mons to rain like Mega Venu / Ferrothorn / Rotom-W in two hits with SR support. The lack of synergy with the best Swimmer in Kabutops is a big setback though.

Finally, Tangrowth is a very solid Pokemon that has massive competition from both Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur. It has solid coverage and excellent bulk when equipped with an Assault Vest, and like Krookodile fares well vs Sand Rush teams. In comparison to Amoonguss, it loses out on Spore and the ability to check Keldeo/Azumarill as effectively, in exchange for more offensive presence and a better match-up vs. Psychics and Grounds. It's not great but D rank is harsh; I'd have it C or C-.

Strong list overall, and I wholeheartedly endorse the promotions of Mega Heracross and Azelf.
 
Weezing looks kind of weird to me. Iron Head isn't terribly uncommon on Mega Mawile, and it does a lot of damage (+2 Iron Head OHKOs 252/252+ Weezing 62.5% of the time, for examples). I guess you could run a faster Weezing to outspeed Mega Mawile, I don't know. What other big threats does it check, by the way?

I'd also like to see Arcanine moved down to D. It's a great counter to Mega Mawile and it does its job really well, but that's just about all it really checks. I've heard a few people say it's better than Moltres, but I completely disagree. Moltres may hate Stealth Rock more, but outside of its Stealth Rock weakness, it's a solid check to several top threats. It checks Mega Mawile pretty well like Arcanine does, and it can even fully counter it even with Stealth Rock up if you run a physically based spread, which I've become a little fond of lately (I occasionally run enough SpD to keep Landorus's Psychic from 2HKOing after Knocking Off the Leftovers and the rest to Def, which gives Mega Mawile's Knock Off only a small chance to KO after Stealth Rock). In fact, as long as it isn't carrying Knock Off or at least doesn't hit you with a full power Knock Off on the switch with Stealth Rock down, you pretty much counter it even with a specially defensive spread. In addition, it also checks our outright counters many forms of Aegislash, non-Calm Mind Landorus, Mega Charizard Y, non-Stored Power Calm Mind Clefable, Mega Scizor, Gengar, etc., many of which Arcanine struggles with more than Moltres or outright loses to. I actually would kinda like to see Moltres in back C-, but that's probably just because I'm a big Moltres fan. All in all, I just don't think that Arcanine needs to be ranked higher because I don't think its ability to more easily handle Mega Mawile trumps Moltres's ability to better handle other offensive threats (notably Landorus). I also don't think that the extra Stealth Rock weaknesses is that big of a deal breaker since Arcanine still hates the hazard, and Moltres is capable of checking Mega Mawile even with Stealth Rock down just like Arcanine can.

Otherwise, I really like the new changes and am glad that you went through and weeded out a lot of things. :)
 
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Weezing looks kind of weird to me. Iron Head isn't terribly uncommon on Mega Mawile, and it does a lot of damage (+2 Iron Head OHKOs 252/252+ Weezing 62.5% of the time, for examples). I guess you could run a faster Weezing to outspeed Mega Mawile, I don't know. What other big threats does it check, by the way?
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 313-369 (93.7 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO


Honestly, I'd say that's pretty damn impressive for a D rank pokemon. Iron Head's really only for Mega Venusaur anyway, and that's honestly not that hard to remove with Landorus-I and Talonflame in the same tier, and you get better tier coverage with Fire Fang/ Knock Off. Here are the pokemon in A that I could see Weezing doing well against.

Mawile (Mega)
Azumarill
Bisharp
Garchomp
Pinsir (Mega)
Mega Pinsir
Talonflame
Tyranitar
Tyranitar (Mega)
Venusaur (Mega)
Dragonite
Ferrothorn
Hippowdon
Landorus-T
Terrakion
Breloom
Mamoswine
 
Yeah, but he mentioned common sets, not necessarily the most viable ones. Personally, Knock Off is my favorite fourth move on Mega Mawile, but it's really rare on the upper end of the ladder, while Iron Head is used on about one in every five Mawile (not sure how common they are in tournament play, though).

Regardless, some of those are really risky. Past Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir also OHKOs 62.5% of the time with +2 Return, Belly Drum Azumarill OHKOs with +6 Waterfall, Bisharp gets very close to a Knock Off OHKO at +2 (at best, you just burn it and lose your Weezing, although at least it's now crippled), etc. It may seem impressive for a D Rank Pokemon, but I hate to see an alleged check to these threats being threatened with a OHKO by them before he can even move or still outright losing to them. I also realize that these are all factoring in boosts, but boosted threats are generally the ones I'm afraid of when switching in defensive checks, lol. Still, it does seem to be a pretty solid answer to stuff like Life Orb Terrakion and Mega Tyranitar, and even the physical attackers that beat it 1-on-1 will be shut down by a burn. Really small niche, but I guess D is reasonable.
 
I still don't see why Mantine is still getting ranked. Defensive Gyarados actually outbulks Mantine on both attacking spectrum unless Mantine runs more special bulk than 248/146 Calm (which gets it 2 hitted by Secret Sword, Knock Off etc). Defog is hardly a redeeming factor (like how Rapid Spin isn't a redeeming factor for Donphan to be used over Hippowdon). Water Absorb is a hardly noticeable perk for mantine when defensive Gyarados takes 2 Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump easily even with rocks. To add insult to injury, Gyarados can run an identical set to Mantine minus Defog and actually perform better. What makes Mantine less outclassed than Donphan when both are a case of pokemon which are completely inferior defensively to another pokemon outside of the ability to remove hazards?

Alternatively, list one actually common scenario, not accounting in Defog, where Mantine can consistently outperform 248 HP/132 Def/128 SpD Gyarados with the same move slots.
 
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You want to know why Donphan is not used over Hippowdon? It's not got anything to do with Rapid Spin, it's about recovery. Hippowdon has Slack off whereas Donphan does not.

Mantine on the other hand has access to recovery in Roost AND Defog to remove hazards. Both of which Gyarados does not have. Those are redeeming factors imo.
 
I still don't see why Mantine is still getting ranked. Defensive Gyarados actually outbulks Mantine on both attacking spectrum unless Mantine runs more special bulk than 248/146 Calm (which gets it 2 hitted by Secret Sword, Knock Off etc). Defog is hardly a redeeming factor (like how Rapid Spin isn't a redeeming factor for Donphan to be used over Hippowdon). Water Absorb is a hardly noticeable perk for mantine when defensive Gyarados takes 2 Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump easily even with rocks. To add insult to injury, Gyarados can run an identical set to Mantine minus Defog and actually perform better. What makes Mantine less outclassed than Donphan when both are a case of pokemon which are completely inferior defensively to another pokemon outside of the ability to remove hazards?

Alternatively, list one actually common scenario, not accounting in Defog, where Mantine can consistently outperform 248 HP/132 Def/128 SpD Gyarados with the same move slots.
Water absorb helps alot against scald. Other than that, not much reason to use mantine over Gyarados.
You want to know why Donphan is not used over Hippowdon? It's not got anything to do with Rapid Spin, it's about recovery. Hippowdon has Slack off whereas Donphan does not.

Mantine on the other hand has access to recovery in Roost AND Defog to remove hazards. Both of which Gyarados does not have. Those are redeeming factors imo.
Mantine can't learn roost.
 
Askeia not sure you understand how viability rankings work. Where's Gyarados on the ranks? Where's Mantine? Ok then. We all know Mantine is outclassed in every way outside of Water Absorb and Defog, but those combined is called a niche, which lands it in D rank.

EDIT: Salemance it was D, I moved it up to C-
 
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Poor Weezing, to get ranked, then unranked, and then finally re-ranked. Such a roller coaster ride the poor thing has had.


Anyway, While I adore most of the changes (some have been advocated before in the past but didn't happen) and am sorta surprised at others. Thanks for the effort in general for updating em.


I have a few disagreements with the above suggestions:

Krookodile is deserving of C+ in my opinion. It is a solid check to Aegislash even though Toxic, Flash Cannon, and Jolly Swords Dance are troublesome to it, and access to Foul Play is cool (as you pointed out) for smacking offensive threats without needing to invest in any Attack. It also has a great match-up with Sand Rush teams since it beats Exca and TTar 1-1 with Earthquake. It's also resistant to SR, a very nice attribute for a wall. It doesn't check as much as I would like, but offers enough to warrant a C+ rankings IMO.

I also disagree on Omastar, which is actually far stronger than Kingdra as a special attacker (not weaker as you claim) & therefore carves itself an excellent niche as a rain wallbreaker that can lure & destroy very threatening mons to rain like Mega Venu / Ferrothorn / Rotom-W in two hits with SR support. The lack of synergy with the best Swimmer in Kabutops is a big setback though.

Finally, Tangrowth is a very solid Pokemon that has massive competition from both Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur. It has solid coverage and excellent bulk when equipped with an Assault Vest, and like Krookodile fares well vs Sand Rush teams. In comparison to Amoonguss, it loses out on Spore and the ability to check Keldeo/Azumarill as effectively, in exchange for more offensive presence and a better match-up vs. Psychics and Grounds. It's not great but D rank is harsh; I'd have it C or C-.

Strong list overall, and I wholeheartedly endorse the promotions of Mega Heracross and Azelf.
I thought I saw Tangrowth as C-.....might you be confusing it with Blissey?

EDIT: Nog Oh, silly me xD
 
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Askeia not sure you understand how viability rankings work. Where's Gyarados on the ranks? Where's Mantine? Ok then. We all know Mantine is outclassed in every way outside of Water Absorb and Defog, but those combined is called a niche, which lands it in D rank.
Water Absorb is barely a factor to use Mantine to use over Gyarados. No unboosted Water type attack is capable of even 3 hitting Gyarados anyway. Proof:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Gyarados: 118-139 (30 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 132 Def Gyarados: 118-139 (30 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
As for Defog, Mantine is also hardly a good user of the move in the first place, weak to SR, lack of reliable recovery etc.

Summary of Mantine:
  • Somewhat useful but outclassed
  • 2 niches to set it apart: One of which is hardly noticeable; The other it is not particularly good at;
If everything that fits those descriptions deserve to be ranked, I can easily make a whole list of it.

Rather than telling me what niches it has, a more convincing way to prove that it deserve to be ranked is to show relevant replays where Mantine performed a important role that Gyarados wouldn't have. Otherwise, it will just be another Sylveon-Florges situation (and we know what happened to Florges).
 
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As much as I've spoken out against it, Mantine-Gyarados isn't exactly another Florges-Sylveon. Florges is almost completely outclassed by Sylveon. Besides slight differences in bulk and a bit more speed, the only real advantage Florges has is...Grass moves. Sylveon can pull off the exact same cleric sets even better with more physical bulk (i.e. patching up their shared weak point a little better), considerably stronger STAB, more HP for bigger Wishes, and the ability to hit opponents through Substitutes. Mantine may be overshadowed by Gyarados in terms of raw bulk, but at least it has Defog to set itself apart, which just so happens to be one of the best support moves in the game. While I still find it to be incredibly mediocre, access to Defog alone is enough to set it apart from Gyarados and avoid being another Florges-Sylveon.

Although I do agree that Water Absorb isn't a very relevant advantage when defensive Gyarados is perfectly capable of tanking strong Water-type attacks and healing off Scald burns with RestTalk, but I digress.
 
If cresselia and exploud are c rank because they are "trick room staples", why is reuniclus e rank?
Cress is pretty solid against stall as well as a good Trick Room setter, while Exploud hits like a truck and gives a lot of teams trouble. Reuniclus isn't that good of a sweeper anymore and is an even worse setter of the move. Most Trick Room teams that are played in tours or high up in the ladder don't use Reuniclus and for good reason.
 

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If cresselia and exploud are c rank because they are "trick room staples", why is reuniclus e rank?
Because Reuniclus is a bad offensive Pokemon on Trick Room teams. The OP will be updated in the next 5 minutes.

EDIT: List updated, and also moved Arcanine to D rank, as per Agent Gibbs's request.

Oh and i emptied the conclusion reached list, because the metagame is changing with the banning of the Deos.
 
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As much as Mantine gets Defog to differentiate itself, it is just a terrible Defogger due to SR weakness, lack of reliable recovery. If I'm not mistaken, Mantine is ranked for being able to handle common threats to stall like Landorus, Keldeo etc. On said teams, if Mantine is even meant to be the only reliable user of Defog, then the team will have much bigger problems. If there is a more reliable user of Defog on the same team, why not just use Gyarados? Is it worth it to run a Pokemon that is pretty average at all its roles rather than a combination of defensive Gyarados plus a better Defogger?

Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one still unhappy about Mantine being ranked, because it is just opening the nomination gates from the lower tiers for more mediocre stuff. Might as well clear things up.
 
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I'm a little confused as to why Mega Abomasnow is still ranked. I was under the impression it was pretty terrible in OU, and even D seems a little high.
 
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