np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[Mahmudkipz]

Sp def amoongus doeant care too much about venomoth and it can clear smog away the boosts and is immune to sleep powder. I give you a very solid counter. Even at +6 from modest moth its not a guaranteed ohko...

+6 252+ SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 415-490 (96 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Sap sipper goodra with d tail can phaze out as well...

+6 252+ SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 235-277 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Base 90 speed isnt even that good when yo
consider that hard hitters like scarf darm amd tini are common. Back in gen v i had a quicerpass team and would run moth. While it is true that it can put a poke to sleep, it can be easily rk before passing the boost. Theorymoning aside well see how moth does in this meta...

You should BP out to Luke asap if you see a Amoon coming in, and while Goodra is in impeccable counter, it isn't too hard to wear down a Goodra before attempting a Veno pass as it has no recovery to speak of, especially if you are wearing an AV.

Look, Veno isn't the most apparent broken thing around but the 50/50s it throws around with when it QDs or SPs before Sleep Clause is activated, and the fact that a fuckton of sweepers - not just special sweepers - things like Haxorus can very much enjoy the speed and SpDef - is what makes it suspect-worthy at first. Don't just look at Veno's Bug Buzz's calcs against something with the bulk of Blissey and think "hmm that isn't broken", calc it with a +6 Nidoking instead.

 

[KM]

just to clear this up - it's already been sort of said but I feel like this thread is going to have a lot of people saying that "venomoth isn't broken" and a lot of people who never understood the initial ban, so yeah

the problem with moth is that it introduces multiple elements of uncontrollable rngs and 50/50s that usually have no counterplay. the combination of a grass-type sleeping move, a boosting move, and a bug STAB means that it has incredibly few safe 100% switch-ins (and those that do aren't very good / don't fit on most teams). on the switch-in, venomoth can either go for QD or sleep right away, but a misprediction can severely cost you. more importantly, sleep is another element of rng that allows venomoth to potentially get 2 or 3 quiver dances, at which point anything it passes to that can use it decently (nidos, blastoise, even ape or something) can sweep through an entire team.

maybe on paper in the long term it ends up failing miserably more than it does succeeding wonderfully, but that doesn't change the fact that you have like a ~40% chance to luck out, predict right, and essentially become an uncounterable monster with few checks. and no, prediction is not counterplay.

wonder skin is just another element, but it's not crucial enough to just "ynot ban wonderskin" because the underlying problem would still exist. it helps you dodge a few taunts, but that's about it.

 

[Empress]

Personally, I think Venomoth should return to UU. The new drops will make its life hell in the retest, such as Infernape and Alakazam nuking its frail bones with their Sp. attacks; not to mention they are faster, so have fun trying to get a QD before they strike. And then there are Blissey and Goodra, who DGAF about any Sp. attacks. But Blissey is setup bait too, as Natural Cure hurts it here more than it helps. Yes, Moth is great as both a supporter and a standalone mon, but it has checks, and some of them are really, really common. The rise of Fletchinder isn't doing it many favors, either, as Gale Wings will bypass QD's Speed boosts. Not to mention the new BP clause, but full BP chains were never that great in UU anyway. Tinted Lens and Wonder Skin indeed make opponents furious, but you can only choose one. Venomoth has a lot going for it, but it also has enough going against it for me to say it will drop to UU.

 

[Patrick1088]

Venomoth needs to tank a hit to come in or tank a hit while switching. Heres some common priority users to bulky moth...

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venomoth: 266-314 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venomoth: 130-153 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venomoth: 126-149 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venomoth: 110-130 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

The espeed calcs look sad, but keep in mind this is the best case scenario for taking hits. Running those evs puts moth at a disappointing 216 speed, which leaves it outsped by +speed base 60s. if you take away its bulk, those espeed users get pretty scary

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Venomoth: 198-233 (57.5 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery


Even after nabbing a boost it still has to bp unscathed and you have plenty of common scarfers that can easily ohko moth with tini, darm, shao, ape, etcc. Also, if you dont run timid, jolly mega aero outspeeds even at +1.

And you can even run lum berry champ. Tank the sleep powder smack it with stone edge, get the ohko if its not sashed. If it is then follow with with bpunch. Before you start talking about nido sweeping, think how youll get moth in and out in one piece...

 

[RufflesPro]

First of all you need Timid and 96 Speed investment to outspeed base 130s at +1, otherwise Brobat shits on you. And even Aero before Mega evolving.



Also lol this thing gets Toxic Spikes, Roost, Defog [Not compatible with Wonder skin IK], Disable, Infestation, is only x2 weak to rocks [Zapdos was too], has wonder skin, and is immune to toxic.

Might try this thing on t-spikes stall :o

LOL it can even Infestation Blissey + Toxic + Disable Seismic Toss/Aromatheropy/Soft-boil/Wish to trap and kill it.

 

[Patrick1088]

Mahmudkipz also in that situation of amoongus vs. Veno, amoongus can spam spore for the switch in or hit veno with clear smog on tye mispredict. The pressure is entirely on veno at that moment, while amoongus is pretty safe.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

A lot of people who are trying to justify that Venomoth isn't broken have clearly not used it extensively. The combination of Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, Baton pass, good typing, and good abilities make it extremely tough to deal with.

The fact that the player playing against Venomoth has to predict whether a quiver or a sleep powder is coming next is probably the most key element. So many times I switch in my Scarfer expecting the QD, but they put me to sleep. And many times I expect the Sleep, but they QD. The 4x resist to fighting and grass is quite helpful, being able to come in for free on locked CCs/HJK, most Roserade, specially defensive celebi, and set up on bulky mons, such as Florges and Blastoise.

Wonder skin can make taunt and roar/ww worthless, leaving a team to be helplessly swept by a +2/+ Special Sweeper, such as Nidoking, Victini, etc.

 

[cacturne]

Wonder skin can make taunt and roar/ww worthless, leaving a team to be helplessly swept by a +2/+ Special Sweeper, such as Nidoking, Victini, etc.

Ww and roar arent affected by wonder skin anymore, not that venemoth cant sleep the phazer anyways. But yeah most of the problems with moth have already been brought up and its p broken

 

[GULLY]

i say just use ditto(make sure there isnt sub up) until it gets banned.. it got more usage early this meta since there were more megas but it still is very viable.

 

[Nysyr]

The problem with moth is unless you have something in that can threaten it, you are fucked. You have to gamble on not being Sleep'd if you hard switch to your check that can deal with it (like scarf shao), otherwise if you go to something that doesnt outspeed and he QDs, you are fucked cuz you just gave him +2. Switched to something that can tank +2/3? Well fuck, it just Baton passed out.

Oh then there's wonderskin being deliciously bullshit.

Also randomsashwtf.

TL;DR thing is stupid.

 

[SaberSeven]

I did some testing here and there with Venomoth. Results have varied between good and underwhelming. Then again, I probably haven't used it to optimal conditions. When I have gotten it to work however, results are ridiculous. Had a match where I passed +4 over to a Nidoqueen and she proceeded to ruin stuff. Then again, I was facing a scrub...I think...maybe...probably since he had his Snorlax try to abuse Venomoth's Sleep Powder to set up Curses and he could have easily used Sharpedo to end my sweep if he were to run Focus Sash & Destiny Bond. That or go immediately into Houndoom to threaten my Venomoth (but then I would have passed to Blastoise). I'll do some more testing, but the threat of at least a +2 Nidoqueen can be scary.

 

[Art Vandelay]

can't Air Balloon Klefki wall Haxorus?

 

[Schpoonman]

Yes, but Klefki is BL (or OU, I don't remember which), that's extremely niche to counter one Pokemon, and Haxorus was found UU anyway, so the presence of Air Balloon Klefki doesn't matter in the first place.

 

[Shiruba]

Klefki's BL unless I am very much mistaken.

But yeah, no real point in discussing Haxorus at the moment, our current star is Venomoth.

 

[aim]

I feel Venemoth would be absolutely horrifying for stall to face. Being able to put a member to sleep and having access to roost + its ability making moves like Sableyes taunt miss half the time + having an immunity to toxic is gonna be crazy. Being able to easily pass those boosts haha it's definitely gonna make UU even more offensive.

 

[Empress]

Yeah, kinda changing my mind about Venomoth as well. I used to dismiss it as a "poor man's Volcarona", but considering how scary Volca was in UU, I can see Moth falling along the same lines. What Venomoth lacks in raw Special bulk, it can easily make up for it with QD. What else can Moth do that Volca cannot? QuiverPass, put targets to sleep, not GAF about resistances, make opponents rage quit over Wonder Skin, etc. However, it often needs a lot of support to function, as like I said before, it needs a free switch in to do anything against Infernape and Alakazam, as well as Mega Aerodactyl, Victini and Darmanitan, among other things. Though Venomoth can be high maintenance, it is extremely good at what it does, similar to how Tornadus-I in BW OU functioned (i.e. he needed support but was a monster when he got it). And once its counters are taken out, it is easy to get to +6, and it actually massacres even Blissey and Goodra. I remember saying that those two DGAF about Moth, but apparently they do:

+6 252+ SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 385-454 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (59% to 2HKO if Timid)
+6 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 214-253 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The support that Venomoth needs still makes me a bit iffy on the subject, but I see clearly why it was banned in the first place, and thus it would not be a surprise if it stayed banned.

 

[cacturne]

Yeah, kinda changing my mind about Venomoth as well. I used to dismiss it as a "poor man's Volcarona", but considering how scary Volca was in UU, I can see Moth falling along the same lines. What Venomoth lacks in raw Special bulk, it can easily make up for it with QD. What else can Moth do that Volca cannot? QuiverPass, put targets to sleep, not GAF about resistances, make opponents rage quit over Wonder Skin, etc. However, it often needs a lot of support to function, as like I said before, it needs a free switch in to do anything against Infernape and Alakazam, as well as Mega Aerodactyl, Victini and Darmanitan, among other things. Though Venomoth can be high maintenance, it is extremely good at what it does, similar to how Tornadus-I in BW OU functioned (i.e. he needed support but was a monster when he got it). And once its counters are taken out, it is easy to get to +6, and it actually massacres even Blissey and Goodra. I remember saying that those two DGAF about Moth, but apparently they do:

+6 252+ SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 385-454 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (59% to 2HKO if Timid)
+6 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 214-253 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The support that Venomoth needs still makes me a bit iffy on the subject, but I see clearly why it was banned in the first place, and thus it would not be a surprise if it stayed banned.

The problem with your reasoning imo is that you're not looking at venemoth as a support pokemon. Moth is very ineffective at standalone sweeping, that's just the way it is. Baton Pass gives moth a free out on any bad situation as well as allowing it to make special threats like Nidoking faster and even more ridiculously powerful. Having pokemon like Nidoking or Hydreigon running around with their awesome coverage, high power, and speed that is no longer middling is what makes it threatening. I am completely missing the boat on how it is easy to get to plus six. In this time venemoth can be statused, simply KOd, or phazed. Moth isn't a standalone sweeper and tbh passing with such ease is what is making it broken, not its ability to beat blissey and goodra if it gets to +6

 

[pokemonisfun]

I feel Venemoth would be absolutely horrifying for stall to face. Being able to put a member to sleep and having access to roost + its ability making moves like Sableyes taunt miss half the time + having an immunity to toxic is gonna be crazy. Being able to easily pass those boosts haha it's definitely gonna make UU even more offensive.

I would agree with you but in light of SD Haxorus staying UU it appears our tier leaders have abandoned stall anyways and that argument isn't going to help Venemoth banners too much I would say. Of course it is possible that Granbull will just rise to UU.

Luckily I've been using Roar Suicune already so it sort of at least delays Venemoth from sweeping. I'm not really sure what stall is supposed to do...does Venemoth even have defensive counters? I'm assuming Venemoth is running Baton Pass with Wonder Skin this is really troublesome for me hmmm.

 

[Patrick1088]

wh0sy0urpapa if you let veno get to +6 then you deserve to be swept. How can people say you dont have an answer to a base 90 poke. At +1, its outsped by almost every revenge killercommon to UU. So lets say your phazer wall like swampy gets put to sleep, bring out your scarf ape, tini or darm and ko it before it switches. Sleep isnt as crippling as it was in gen V and grass types are immune to sleep powder. Wonderskin got nerfed and roar and ww affect it now. So, sleep talk ww snorlax is fine all of a sudden. All it takes is a little offensive pressure to beat. If you dont have a sleep absorber, priority user or faster scarf poke, then you may have trouble with it. But, there are so mnay options in UU. Heck you have overcoat forretress which doesmt care about sleep powder or bug buzz and doesajor damage with gyro ball. If you want to bp thr boosts to tini, then you have sucker punch users like mega absol, honchkrow, bulky mons that resist fire like snorlax.

I get it that baton pass is the crutch here, otherwise itd be similar to vivillion. But, as we say with haxorus, its a monster if it sets up. Moth has more weaknesses in psychi , rock, flying, fire. Thats my 2 cents, i think people are really forgetting that a little offensive pressure goes a long way...

 

[UU ALL DAY]

wh0sy0urpapa if you let veno get to +6 then you deserve to be swept. How can people say you dont have an answer to a base 90 poke. At +1, its outsped by almost every revenge killercommon to UU. So lets say your phazer wall like swampy gets put to sleep, bring out your scarf ape, tini or darm and ko it before it switches. Sleep isnt as crippling as it was in gen V and grass types are immune to sleep powder. Wonderskin got nerfed and roar and ww affect it now. So, sleep talk ww snorlax is fine all of a sudden. All it takes is a little offensive pressure to beat. If you dont have a sleep absorber, priority user or faster scarf poke, then you may have trouble with it. But, there are so mnay options in UU. Heck you have overcoat forretress which doesmt care about sleep powder or bug buzz and doesajor damage with gyro ball. If you want to bp thr boosts to tini, then you have sucker punch users like mega absol, honchkrow, bulky mons that resist fire like snorlax.

I get it that baton pass is the crutch here, otherwise itd be similar to vivillion. But, as we say with haxorus, its a monster if it sets up. Moth has more weaknesses in psychi , rock, flying, fire. Thats my 2 cents, i think people are really forgetting that a little offensive pressure goes a long way...

It isn't that most teams don't have answers for a +1 moth, it's "predicting" whether sash moth is going to sleep on the switch or quiver dance.

I already said this before, but this is how it goes.

Swampert vs Moth
Moth can either A.) Sleep or B.) Quiver
You can either A.) Attack, B.) Roar, or C.) Switch into your scarfer

If Moth decides to sleep while you attack or roar, and if sleep powder hits, you can switch into your scarfer next turn if the sash is broken (or if it doesn't run sash for whatever reason). If it does have sash, it will be able to get +2 and potentially BP to something that can run through your team, or weaken it for something else to sweep your team.

Now, if you decide to switch in your scarfer into the predicted quiver, but the trainer does indeed hit sleep powder, then you do not have an answer. You can switch into your phaser, but it does have appropriate moves to beat most phasers (bug buzz, giga drain, etc).

If you decide to switch into your scarfer and moth quiver dances, you should be able to revenge it given it does not have sash/run sash.

It seems simple, but if your phaser dies or you lack a phaser, you are in trouble. If you predict incorrectly and try to force out the moth by pulling a direct switch into a RV, you are in danger of being put to sleep. If you try to taunt or something like that predicting a sleep, you risk missing because of WS and it being able to BP to something that can eat up a hit.

Not to mention that a lot of special attackers (scarfed) won't be able to effective RV a +1 spd recipient

*shrugs*

 

[kokoloko]

Patrick1088 so I come in on your nidoking (the strongest special attacker in the tier and it's still setup bait, mind you), use quiver dance as you switch to your phazer, put that shit to sleep and then boost again as you go to your scarfer. you are now facing a +2+2+2 venomoth with a slower pokemon which I can baton pass out of into a special attacker that counters it AND I probably still have my sash because like 95% of teams don't bother trying to block defog.

restalk snorlax is garb.

good game.

why you're assuming I would try to set up on a pokemon that knows roar or whirlwind is beyond me tbh.

 

[g]

Lol the only reliable way of dealing with Venomoth is running 2 scarfers faster than it at +1 and that can OHKO it (that requires having hazards up) or otherwise it has the potential to beat practically anything else (bar sleep talk whirlwind/roar) if its user gets the 50/50s right and that is pretty ridiculous. Not to mention it can dodge taunt half of the time

 

[cacturne]

Lol the only reliable way of dealing with Venomoth is running 2 scarfers faster than it at +1 and that can OHKO it (that requires having hazards up) or otherwise it has the potential to beat practically anything else (bar sleep talk whirlwind/roar) if its user gets the 50/50s right and that is pretty ridiculous. Not to mention it can dodge taunt half of the time

Fletchinder can beat it too with priority acro. not that that makes venemoth manageable but js

 

[Patrick1088]

UU ALL DAY i dont think what i said came off the right away. Lets say we do have veno vs. Swampy and scarf darm. If you lead with swampy, thrn that scenario you said before applies. If ypu lead with scarf darm vs. Veno, then the pressure is on veno. If its sashed sleep powder is the safe option since even at +1 scarf darm wins. Darm can pivot out to the obvious sleep absorber or grass type. Or darm can just click flare blitz absorb the sleep powder if its sashed and then you switch out to either your phazer or priority user whether thats lucario, arcanine, swampy, ww snorlax, etc..darm is incapacitated until a cleric heals it or thr time clock resets. Its probably a nightmare for stall since most of the pokes couldnt immediately threaten it and i can see it being broken from that stance since its a special attacker who cant be worn down t spikes and can setup on the pink core and pass to a sweeper like queen who has the coverage nd bulk to handle unboosted priority users. My argument is mainly most balanced teams have a priority user or faster attacker like sash zam, scarf tini where they all force the above situation. I know moth isnt sweeping anytime soon, and its not broken in the sense of thundy-t, daunt or zone due to power, not does it have utility and longevity of torn-t. So, we have to focuz on it as a supporter more in the sense of klefki. Klefkis prankster and typing guaranteed its job will get done in one way or another, whether that was spike stacking, t wave spreader.. that job isnt guaranteed with moth. It can put a poke to sleep semi reliably one per match, but its not guaranteed to sweep unless the one poke put to sleep is the revenge killer or priority user. In my opinion, if the 50/50 is to sac thr poke to sleeping, then that comes down to smart play and prediction, not blindly clicking sleep powder and hoping to hit the one poke that can stop ypur sweep. I hope this makes more sense from my POV...

 

[UU ALL DAY]

UU ALL DAY i dont think what i said came off the right away. Lets say we do have veno vs. Swampy and scarf darm. If you lead with swampy, thrn that scenario you said before applies. If ypu lead with scarf darm vs. Veno, then the pressure is on veno. If its sashed sleep powder is the safe option since even at +1 scarf darm wins. Darm can pivot out to the obvious sleep absorber or grass type. Or darm can just click flare blitz absorb the sleep powder if its sashed and then you switch out to either your phazer or priority user whether thats lucario, arcanine, swampy, ww snorlax, etc..darm is incapacitated until a cleric heals it or thr time clock resets. Its probably a nightmare for stall since most of the pokes couldnt immediately threaten it and i can see it being broken from that stance since its a special attacker who cant be worn down t spikes and can setup on the pink core and pass to a sweeper like queen who has the coverage nd bulk to handle unboosted priority users. My argument is mainly most balanced teams have a priority user or faster attacker like sash zam, scarf tini where they all force the above situation. I know moth isnt sweeping anytime soon, and its not broken in the sense of thundy-t, daunt or zone due to power, not does it have utility and longevity of torn-t. So, we have to focuz on it as a supporter more in the sense of klefki. Klefkis prankster and typing guaranteed its job will get done in one way or another, whether that was spike stacking, t wave spreader.. that job isnt guaranteed with moth. It can put a poke to sleep semi reliably one per match, but its not guaranteed to sweep unless the one poke put to sleep is the revenge killer or priority user. In my opinion, if the 50/50 is to sac thr poke to sleeping, then that comes down to smart play and prediction, not blindly clicking sleep powder and hoping to hit the one poke that can stop ypur sweep. I hope this makes more sense from my POV...

ok

so you want me to have a team that has a scarfer, a cleric, a priority user, and a phaser to deal with one mon? ok i understand meow, ty.