I don't see that as an issue. Out of Skyla's entire team, both in B/W and B2/W2, (including Challenge Mode) only Swoobat knew Acrobatics, the very move she hands out for beating her. A greatly expanded repertoire of Water types would be a godsend for the last half of the game. Tentacool/Tentacruel and Pelliper for Surf encounters everywhere can wear on one's patience. And once Clamperl, Chinchou, and Relicanth are caught...you're done with everything underwater.
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Hoenn 2.0
- Thread starter Stellar
- Start date
As of right now, there is no reason to assume Emerald line-ups for gym leaders and E4. If anything, Steven's champion status makes the RS lineups more likely.
That said, updates to RSE are substantial. Even if the only upgrade were the physical/special split, the change would be huge. I've compiled a list of possible improvements based on XY movepools of all Hoenn pokemon for quick reference. Pokemon capable of mega evolution are in bold.
Treecko / Grovyle / Sceptile
Torchic / Combusken / Blaziken
Mudkip / Marshtomp / Swampert
Poochyena / Mightyena
Wurmple / Cocoon / Beautifly or Dustox
Lotad / Lombre / Ludicolo
Seedot / Nuzleaf / Shiftry
Taillow / Swellow
Wingull / Pelipper
Ralts / Kirlia / Gardevoir or Gallade
Surskit / Masquerain
Shroomish / Breloom
Slakoth / Vigoroth / Slaking
Nincada / Ninjask / Shedinja
Whismur / Loudred / Exploud
Makuhita / Hariyama
Azurill / Marill / Azumarill
Nosepass / Probopass
Skitty / Delcatty
Sableye
Mawile
Aron / Lairon / Aggron
Meditite / Medicham
Electrike / Manectric
Plusle and Minun
Volbeat
Illumise
Budew / Roselia / Roserade
Gulpin / Swalot
Carvanha / Sharpedo
Wailmer / Wailord
Numel / Camerupt
Torkoal
Spoink / Grumpig
Spinda
Trapinch / Vibrava / Flygon
Cacnea / Cacturne
Swablu / Altaria
Zangoose
Seviper
Lunatone
Solrock
Barboach / Whiscash
Corphish / Crawdaunt
Baltoy / Claydol
Lileep / Cradily
Anorith / Armaldo
Feebas / Milotic
Castform
Kecleon
Shuppet / Banette
Duskull / Dusclops / Dusknoir
Tropius
Chingling / Chimecho
Absol
Wynaut / Wobbuffet
Snorunt / Glalie / Froslass
Spheal / Sealeo / Walrein
Clamperl / Huntail / Gorebyss
Relicanth
Luvdisc
Bagon / Shelgon / Salamence
Beldum / Metang / Metagross
Regirock
Regice
Registeel
Latias / Latios
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Heart scales are going to be a hot commodity guys, you heard it here first.
That said, updates to RSE are substantial. Even if the only upgrade were the physical/special split, the change would be huge. I've compiled a list of possible improvements based on XY movepools of all Hoenn pokemon for quick reference. Pokemon capable of mega evolution are in bold.
Treecko / Grovyle / Sceptile
These are seemingly hurt by the loss of Leaf Blade, but there remain alternatives. Depending where we get it, Grass Knot may be available to them. Furthermore, Grass / Fire / Water Pledge have been available as tutor moves since Gen 5 (Driftveil City, high 20s - low 30s). Grass Pledge would easily resolve that issue. Oh and I wouldn't be surprised if Dragon Pulse were placed at the start of Sceptile's level up pool so that its Mega evo had something useable.
Torchic / Combusken / Blaziken
Not much change that I can think of here...Fire Pledge might help them but otherwise I don't see anything else. Improved Rock Tomb is something, and maybe we'll see an early Flame Charge TM (Fiery path would be perfect). Mega Blaziken is obscene.
Mudkip / Marshtomp / Swampert
Easily had the best in-game leveling movepool of the 3 starters. Again, Water Pledge would solve its relatively weak water-type moves and it already has access to Mud Shot -> Mud Bomb -> Dig TM by Fallarbor. Even if they replaced Dig with Bulldoze, it's fine.
Poochyena / Mightyena
Access to physical Bite / Crunch and Quick Feet should help them greatly. If you wanted to go to the trouble, it gets access to Play Rough and the Fangs as egg moves, but the Hoenn pokemon that learn these through level-up at a reasonable level are few and far between.
Wurmple / Cocoon / Beautifly or Dustox
Beautifly sees relative improvement, with its SpA boosted to base 100 and early STAB special Gust. Between that and Absorb it actually isn't that bad in the early gyms. Later additions include special Bug STAB and Quiver Dance should you be inclined to raise one. Notable TMs include special Venoshock, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, and Acrobatics; early access to Struggle Bug would be ideal.
Dustox unfortunately got the short end of the stick, but it does get all the TMs Beautifly does and STAB on Venoshock. Protect spam is something it would have against Norman to help out.
Dustox unfortunately got the short end of the stick, but it does get all the TMs Beautifly does and STAB on Venoshock. Protect spam is something it would have against Norman to help out.
Lotad / Lombre / Ludicolo
These pokemon are decently improved. Keeping Lotad in its base form allows it to learn Mega Drain, and Lombre gets good water STAB in the form of Bubblebeam at Lv. 25 until Surf becomes available. This makes it a solid early-game attacker. Ludicolo has access to Focus Blast and Scald as well.
Seedot / Nuzleaf / Shiftry
I'd imagine that Seedot / Nuzleaf is still a relative struggle early game as not much has changed there. But not all is lost. Faint Attack is now physical for Shiftry, and we've seen relative confirmation that it will get Leaf Blade somehow. Nuzleaf has Razor Leaf from the start now, which is helpful since it can be caught in Ruby near the move relearner's house in Fallarbor. The rest of its success will be determined by TM placement: Dark Pulse, Energy Ball, Low Sweep, etc offer powerful options.
Taillow / Swellow
Hoenn's regional bird remains largely unchanged. Unless you want to go to the trouble of its egg move Brave Bird, its only notable additions are U-turn and Roost. And given the switch to Retaliate as Norman's TM (unless it is now in Slaking's level-up pool), it won't have access to Guts Facade. At least Return comes around the same time.
Wingull / Pelipper
These two get a little better as well. Strong STABs in the form of Wing Attack and Water Pulse by level 20, then Pelipper gets Protect and Roost by level 28, two moves that should help greatly against Norman. Scald and U-turn are new options for the line.
Ralts / Kirlia / Gardevoir or Gallade
The transition has been a mixed bag for these. Gardevoir has always been good, it's the Ralts / Kirlia period that is difficult. The line doesn't have Fairy STAB until Gardevoir and Kirlia has now lost STAB Psychic by Lv. 26; it's strongest move until it becomes Gardevoir or Gallade is Confusion. However, I suspect that Wattson's new TM giveaway will be either Volt Switch or Charge Beam, the latter of which would help somewhat. Gardevoir's ability to regain STAB Moonblast immediately upon evolution is also a big plus, and Garde additionally gains Focus Blast.
Gallade is an entirely new take on Kirlia since RSE. You'll have to get lucky and catch a male Ralts, but access to immediate Close Combat, Night Slash, and Leaf Blade backed by decent speed are promising. The Dawn stone's location in-game will determine how useful Gallade is.
Gallade is an entirely new take on Kirlia since RSE. You'll have to get lucky and catch a male Ralts, but access to immediate Close Combat, Night Slash, and Leaf Blade backed by decent speed are promising. The Dawn stone's location in-game will determine how useful Gallade is.
Surskit / Masquerain
I expect these two to be just as useless as before, but not all hope is lost. Masquerain has access to Bug Buzz and Quiver Dance via move relearner and special Gust, as well as a few new TMs to take advantage of.
Shroomish / Breloom
These two are also largely unchanged, but I think the overall effect is positive. Poison Heal provides healing (maybe Toxic orb will be available somewhere), and they now will have the admittedly late Seed Bomb for physical grass STAB. Rock Slide and Stone Edge are more powerful alternatives to Rock Tomb this time around.
Slakoth / Vigoroth / Slaking
Truant will always make these difficult to use, but they've got some hope. Holding off Slakoth's evolution until Lv. 19 (just one level) gives it physical Faint Attack. Vigoroth can now hope for early Low Sweep, Bulldoze, or Shadow Claw to expand its coverage as well. Slaking can get back Hammer Arm, and has a surprisingly useful SpA stat if it wants to use the now-reuseable TMs of Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, etc.
Nincada / Ninjask / Shedinja
Ninjask now has a new and improved 100% accurate, 40 BP Fury Cutter to work with until the X-Scissor TM. And of course, it still learns Dig.
Shedinja remains as niche as ever but has new Ghost moves such as Shadow Sneak and Phantom Force on top of access to the X-Scissor TM.
Shedinja remains as niche as ever but has new Ghost moves such as Shadow Sneak and Phantom Force on top of access to the X-Scissor TM.
Whismur / Loudred / Exploud
These have already been covered, but their usefulness can't be overstated. A 90 BP STAB move from the start is great, supplemented by Loudred's Bite as soon as it evolves. Loudred has a huge movepool that becomes almost unnecessary once Exploud gains access to STAB Boomburst via the move relearner. Huge improvement here.
Makuhita / Hariyama
These pokemon now have physical Knock Off to take advantage of as early as Lv. 19, and good Fighting STABs as they grow. Rock Slide and Poison Jab are now two TMs that they can use to good effect as well.
Azurill / Marill / Azumarill
Another line that has seen significant improvement. Despite not getting Play Rough until Lv. 45, they have other options. Whether or not they decide to include Azurill in the wild, Marill can rock Return and Aqua Tail for easy coverage, supplementing with Superpower.
Nosepass / Probopass
75 SpA isn't the best, nor is it's low speed, but it's workable in-game and far better than what Nosepass could do previously. Power Gem, Discharge, and Earth Power are all useful level-up moves supplemented by access to Dazzling Gleam and Flash Cannon. Definitely improved.
Skitty / Delcatty
Delcatty is pathetic and has little going for it. It has lost physical Shadow Ball and only gained Wild Charge in return. Furthermore, Normalize was added to it and is even worse than Cute Charm.
Sableye
Much has improved for Sableye. It now has physical Dark STAB and access to Shadow Sneak, all before Lv. 30. It also gains Low Sweep. Furthermore, its Mega has increased special attack, allowing it to make use of Calm Mind, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, and Dazzling Gleam.
Mawile
Mawile wasn't the best in XY, but I think it has more potential in ORAS due to the earlier appearance of the move tutor. By the time you get there (about Lv 25), Mawile will have bit and renewed access to Play Rough and Iron Head for STAB. Prior to that, its Fairy-typing grants it additional resistances and Intimidate can be useful.
Aron / Lairon / Aggron
Aggon's biggest upgrade is its movepool expansion. You can catch Aron with Metal Claw and immediately teach it Rock Tomb, then upgrade to Iron Head at Lv. 25. Aggron also gets access to physical Dragon Claw, Dig, and Bulldoze as you progress through the game, not to mention extreme bulk should its mega stone be available.
Meditite / Medicham
These two are much improved, despite the loss of Shadow Ball. Meditite is found around Mt. Pyre at level 30, meaning it will already have Force Palm. By Lv. 32, it gains HJK and then Medicham has access to all three punches and Zen Headbutt for physical STAB thanks to the move relearner. And, although it doesn't need it, it does gain access to Rock Slide via TM. Their power is turned to up to an 11 with mega evolution, if available.
Electrike / Manectric
Electrike is a mixed bag. On the one had, it is sure to gain a good special electric STAB from Wattson, but on the other is loses special Bite and Crunch. Hopefully the Flamethrower TM is available about midway through the game. Otherwise, Manectric is solid. Lightningrod makes Electrike super useful for Wattson's gym, as well.
Plusle and Minun
Lumped these together because its about the same. Their only improvements are access to Nasty Plot and Grass Knot, although the latter is pretty decent I guess.
Volbeat
Volbeat lost physical Signal Beam and is now left with U-turn as it's strongest Bug attack. It does get access to Thunder Wave and Acrobatics but that hardly compensates; at least Tail Glow is now +3 Special attack.
Illumise
Illumise, on the other hand, gained special STAB Bug Buzz, Shadow Ball, and Dazzling Gleam, all improvements.
Budew / Roselia / Roserade
Roselia has improved much since RSE. It now has an additional evolution and access to special poison STAB in the form of Venoshock and Sludge Bomb. It's movepool has been accelerated such that it now has Magical Leaf / Giga Drain by level 25, and Petal Dance by 37. On top of this, Roselia gains special Shadow Ball and Dazzling Gleam as coverage, and the ability to utilize Eviolite to patch up its sub-par defenses. A definitive improvement.
Gulpin / Swalot
This line is largely unchanged, but Swalot can regain STAB Gunk Shot from the move relearner, which is stronger than anything it has had in the past. Like all poison-types, it also gains a resistance and advantage against the new Fairy-type, though we'll see how prominently it features throughout these games.
Carvanha / Sharpedo
These two haven't changed much. Their Dark STAB now runs off of their higher attack stat, and they've gained Ice Fang but that's about it. By the time you can fish out Carvanha with the Good Rod, it is very close to learning Crunch just before evolving, making it rather easy to raise.
Wailmer / Wailord
Wailmer can be fished out with a Good Rod as soon as you get it, and has the relatively powerful Water Pulse. However, the true advantage is the acquisition of Water Spout at level 34, which I imagine will be quite powerful. Not much else has changed other than that though.
Numel / Camerupt
These two have improved significantly. By the time you catch Numel, it has access to the relatively high-powered Magnitude and Flame Burst. By level 26 (ie before Flannery) these have become Lava Plume and Earth Power, complemented by Rock Slide upon evolution into Camerupt. Yawn is another new options that may see use, as well as Camerupt's Lv. 1 Eruption. It doesn't need many TMs with such great coverage, but it notably gets Rock Polish if patching up speed is something you want to do, and Solid Rock may help against weaker Ground attacks.
Torkoal
I'd say Torkoal has gotten a little better. Still gets Flamethrower by Lv. 28, and it now has access to Gyro Ball, Stone Edge, and other moves on the physical side. Shell Smash offers a way to boost its offenses and speed (lol base 20), and it does get Solarbeam I guess.
Spoink / Grumpig
Another line that sees improvement. Spoink will now have Psybeam when caught on the Jagged pass, and as a Grumpig gains access to Psyshock for attack on the physical side and a slew of moves on the special side (Energy Ball, Charge Beam, Power Gem, Focus Blast).
Spinda
STAB Uproar when caught is a big improvement, but I'm afraid that's it. Spinda has equally low attacking stats so its moves will hurt about the same. It gets notable priority with Sucker Punch and new access Rock Slide and Wild Charge.
Trapinch / Vibrava / Flygon
Our favorite desert Dragonfly receives quite the update. As Trapinch, Faint attack and Crunch both become physical and it has Superpower access via relearner (only as Trapinch, though). Additionally, it gains Dig and Rock Slide by level up prior to evolution, giving Vibrava quite the repertoire to work with. Flygon learns Dragon Tail upon evolving, which is eh, but it has new toys such as Rock Slide, Roost, U-turn, and Hone Claws. Draco Meteor is available, as well.
Cacnea / Cacturne
The issue with these two has always been their strange mismatch between stats and level-up pool, and this has not been remedied. Cacnea is stuck with Absorb until evolution into Cacturne at 32, at which point Cacturne has...Absorb and Faint Attack. It can still hope for Power-up Punch and Grass Knot as early TMs, but as for reliable STAB it is stuck until higher levels.
Swablu / Altaria
These two are largely unchanged. Altaria has gained recovery in Roost and a better special dragon attack in Dragon Pulse, but that's it. Due to getting Dragon Dance at 34, Altaria now requires a Heart Scale to regain the move rather than learning it at Lv. 40, which may be annoying.
Zangoose
Zangoose has improved for ORAS, in my opinion. It's only setback has been the loss of Swords Dance early on when you catch it, but beyond that everything is good news. It still has strong normal STAB to work with, but gains physical Pursuit until whenever we get Shadow Claw. Zangoose now learns X-Scissor at 36, which is sure to help for the Psychic gym, and Lv. 47 Close Combat rounds out its coverage for Rock and Steels while giving it a weapon for the Dark and Ice E4. Rock Slide and Poison Jab are newly accessible TMs and if tutors are introduced, the punches are likely.
Seviper
Seviper remains about the same for AS. It has Poison Tail and Venoshock as early STABs, but Lv. 25 Crunch is now replaced by Lv. 31 Night Slash. Still, Seviper has an impressive movepool including Flamethrower and Earthquake that leave it with surprising coverage. Shame that it has lost Giga Drain.
Lunatone
The addition of Rock Polish, Stone Edge, Shadow Ball, Psyshock, and Grass Knot to its movepool are notable gains here. It also learns Rock Slide on its own by level 25 and Moonblast at the late Lv. 50. Decent gains, I'd say.
Solrock
More physically inclined than Lunatone, Solrock has improved about the same with the additions of Will-o-wisp and Acrobatics to its movepool, as well as Rock Polish. That's about it.
Barboach / Whiscash
These have gained physical Aqua Tail / Waterfall and Rock Slide + Stone Edge in their repertoire, making them vastly improved compared to RS and good choices if you picked Torchic or Treecko.
Corphish / Crawdaunt
These two, while good, always lacked good physical STAB; that all changes now. By the time you get Corphish, you can immediately teach it a strong water move in Surf, and it learns Knock Off at level 26 before evolution into Crawdaunt at 30. The latter has access to X-Scissor, Rock Slide, and Dark Pulse in its TMs, as well as the old Ice Beam, and upgrades to Night Slash and Crunch as it levels up. Crabhammer has also been boosted to a physical 100 power attack.
Baltoy / Claydol
Holding off Baltoy's evolution for 1 level grants Earth Power, where Claydol was previously forced to wait for Earthquake or rely on Mud-Slap. In addition to all of its old moves, Dazzling Gleam and Grass Knot have been added to its TM movepool, and Rock Polish can patch up its speed.
Lileep / Cradily
Cradily now learns Ancientpower before it evolves, and has the improved Rock Tomb as an option on the physical side. Although it lost the Giga Drain TM, it does get Grass Knot and Energy Ball. Additionally, Cradily can now hope for Bulldoze and Rock Slide as potential moves prior to the Seafloor cavern, where Earthquake is obtained.
Anorith / Armaldo
These pokemon were starved for moves in RS, but have improved greatly since. Fury Cutter is now learned by Anorith prior to evolution, though X-Scissor may be available via TM prior to that point. This grants Armaldo Bug / Rock Tomb / Dig coverage, and it has access to Rock Polish and Rock Slide TMs later on.
Feebas / Milotic
Milotic has been much easier to obtain from Gen 5 on, but that's about all that's changed. If anything, Milotic has gotten worse. Recover is now at Lv. 21, meaning that you need to catch Feebas at a maximum level of 21 (20 if using the beauty evolution method) to get the move without having to resort to the relearner. Besides that, Milotic will be sticking to its standard Water + Ice coverage, though Hidden Power being special regardless of the type may be of some help.
Castform
Castform has had Hydro Pump added to its level-up pool, which offers a water-type option that doesn't require use of Rain Dance first. Aside from that, it has only gained access to Thunder Wave, Scald, Energy Ball, and special Shadow Ball.
Kecleon
Kecleon has a wide movepool augmented by Shadow Claw, Rock Slide, and Sucker Punch, but that's about it. If tutors are present, it will likely get the elemental punches as well.
Shuppet / Banette
This line hasn't changed much at all. Banette has access to Infestation and Thunder Wave, but not much else besides Mega Evolution. In fact, Shadow Claw is slightly weaker than its previous Shadow Ball.
Duskull / Dusclops / Dusknoir
The addition of Dusknoir means that the Duskull line will eventually become something that can actually attack. While Shadow Punch is far weaker than Shadow Ball (please GF give Phantom Force), the line now has access to elemental punches via relearner, and its other physical moves are much more powerful. If you prefer Dusclops, Eviolite is still available to make it nigh impenetrable.
Tropius
Poor Tropius. It has always been disappointingly weak, and that hasn't changed much at all despite the addition of Leaf Storm and Air Slash. However, not all is lost. Access to the Swords Dance TM may make it a much more effective attacker.
Chingling / Chimecho
Chimecho is rare and obtained quite late though the addition of Chingling early to the Hoenn dex may resolve this. Sadly, even that may not be enough to make it worthwhile, as it's best psychic attack is Extrasensory at 46. It does, at least, have access to Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, Charge Beam, and Thunder Wave as well as special Shadow Ball. Yawn + Dream Eater combo is another alternative.
Absol
Absol is found around levels 27-31, making Bite and Pursuit its strongest stabs. SD is now at 33, so it isn't too far off. Absol has access to Night Slash, Sucker Punch, and Psycho Cut as well as some other cutting moves; it has gained Will-o-wisp and Thunder Wave as well. Notably, its mega evolution makes its large special movepool useable as well, so hopefully that comes early. Absol has decent egg moves in Megahorn and Play Rough, but the pokemon that learn them in Hoenn do so extremely late or require a heart scale, not to mention the backtracking required.
Wynaut / Wobbuffet
If anything they've gotten worse, because you can't predict Counter vs. Mirror Coat based on type anymore.
Snorunt / Glalie / Froslass
Snorunt no longer learns Ice Beam by level any more, but that is irrelevant if you swung by the abandoned ship to pick up Ice Beam. Glalie now has access to Bulldoze and Dark Pulse, but little more.
Froslass is a whole new pokemon to Hoenn, like Gallade. She is equally as powerful as Glalie but has access to higher speed and STAB Shadow Ball, as well as Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave, and Destiny Bond.
Froslass is a whole new pokemon to Hoenn, like Gallade. She is equally as powerful as Glalie but has access to higher speed and STAB Shadow Ball, as well as Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave, and Destiny Bond.
Spheal / Sealeo / Walrein
Walrein can now regain Crunch, but almost nothing else has changed. Yawn is an option through breeding as is Signal Beam, but by that point it may not be worth it. It gets Rock Slide by TM, for what it's worth.
Clamperl / Huntail / Gorebyss
Ice Fang, physical Crunch, and physical Water moves help Huntail distinguish itself from Gorebyss a little better, and helps it hit harder. There are no changes besides that unless you want to keep Clamperl until Lv. 50 Shell Smash.
Gorebyss has undergone no changes except the acquisition of special Shadow Ball. Lv. 50 Shell Smash from Clamperl is unrealistic.
Gorebyss has undergone no changes except the acquisition of special Shadow Ball. Lv. 50 Shell Smash from Clamperl is unrealistic.
Relicanth
Relicanth now gets Head Smash from the more relearner, giving it a fearsome STAB to utilize in conjunction with Rock Head. It also has physical STAB Waterfall and Rock Polish to help it out, so it may actually be worth using this time around.
Luvdisc
If you've somehow read through all of this, you may have noticed that many more pokemon will be relying on heart scales for their best moves and updated usefulness, making Luvdisc a valuable commodity. Luvdisc can also gain Aqua Jet through tutor, allowing it to ram into unsuspecting targets as lovingly as possible with its fearsome base 30 attack.
Bagon / Shelgon / Salamence
The improved base power of Fly and access to physical Dragon Claw make Salamence an even more fearsome pokemon to have after waiting all those levels. Moreover, Dragon Claw is found in the only room of Meteor Falls where Bagon can be caught, so you can teach it immediately. Salamence also receives more physical attacks to make use of its monstrous attack, including Crunch, Zen Headbutt, and Rock Slide / Stone Edge. On the special side, Mence retains Fire Blast and can be taught Draco Meteor. If you can manage to raise a Salamence before the E4 (actually quite possible with match call), it has the movepool to cover the entire E4 between Brick Break / Crunch / Rock Slide or Stone Edge or Fire Blast / Dragon Claw / Earthquake or Fire Blast. This is even more likely given that TMs are reuseable.
Beldum / Metang / Metagross
These pokemon are only available post-E4 and thus largely irrelevant, but they too have been improved overall. Meteor Mash is still a decent 90 power, and the line has gained physical psychic STAB in Zen Headbutt. If move tutors are present, physical Ice and Thunderpunch are additional options. Metagross also has access to the powerful Hammer Arm, and Rock Slide if so desired.
On the special side, it has gained Flash Cannon, special Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb, and Grass Knot. Most importantly, a Mega Evolution with Tough Claws gives Metagross renewed power on its contact moves.
On the special side, it has gained Flash Cannon, special Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb, and Grass Knot. Most importantly, a Mega Evolution with Tough Claws gives Metagross renewed power on its contact moves.
Regirock
Including because it is technically obtainable as soon as you clear the Magma / Aqua hideout (levels around low 40s). By level 40, Regirock has Ancientpower / Superpower / Curse / Rock throw and can regain Hammer Arm via move tutor. Regirock has generally improved, with access to Rock Polish, Stone Edge, Thunder Wave, and Rock Slide via TM. Physical punches would benefit it, if they are available.
Regice
Regice comes with Ancientpower / Superpower / Curse / Icy Wind, and can regain Zap Cannon via move tutor. However, TMs by that point will make it far better. You already have Ice Beam and Thunderbolt by that point, giving it Bolt-Beam coverage, and I suspect that Focus Blast will be available in the Lilycove department store to round out the coverage. It also learns Rock Polish and Thunder Wave.
Registeel
Registeel comes with Ancientpower / Superpower / Curse / Metal Claw, but can regain Zap Cannon, Iron Head, and Hammer Arm through move tutor. Likely TMs it can learn by that point are Thunderbolt, Shadow Claw, Focus Blast, Bulldoze, and Rock Slide. In the future, you obtain Earthquake and Brick Break, both viable options. Like Regirock, it learns Rock Polish and Thunder Wave and would appreciate elemental punches becoming available through tutor later in the game.
Latias / Latios
Like Metagross, these aren't available until after the game, but whatever. Both are about the same. More powerful Dragon STAB (Pulse, Meteor), and in Latios' case physical dragon STAB should it want to use Dragon Dance. Both can use Psyshock to hit on the physical side, but the introduction of the Fairy type and powerful Ghost/Dark moves on the physical side make them somewhat more vulnerable.
Kyogre
As if we thought Kyogre couldn't get better, it somehow has. It has a yet-unknown new signature move coming but still has improvements outside of that. Water Spout is now at level 50, granting it even more power than Hydro Pump. It is also capable of undergoing primal devolution, giving Sapphire players a devastating force.
Groudon
Again, as if we thought Groudon couldn't get better. Groudon also has a yet-unknown new signature move, but it also has improvements outside of that. Groudon gains access to physical Dragon Claw and Shadow Claw, as well as boosting moves in the Rock Polish and Swords Dance TMs. It can take advantage of its own primal devolution's fire-typing thanks to a host of Fire moves, including STAB Lava Plume, Fire Blast, and Eruption.
Rayquaza
It's likely that it will be obtained post E4, but whatever. Rayquaza remains top dog with powerful attacks on either side of the spectrum. Air Slash gives it a special counterpart to fly, while Draco Meteor is even more powerful than its former Outrage. The fairy type is the only impediment to its complete dominance, but that doesn't matter for in-game.
Heart scales are going to be a hot commodity guys, you heard it here first.
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Um...IcyMan28? Where...where's Chinchou/Lanturn? The former is uncommon underwater in the seaweed...
That said, many, many Luvdisc will suffer for our thirst for one maniac's obsession for their scales and what he offers in exchange for them. Almost makes me wonder if we could get free moves remembered for life if we toss the whole Luvdisc at him. All the Heart Scales he could ever want. Almost, but not quite.
That said, many, many Luvdisc will suffer for our thirst for one maniac's obsession for their scales and what he offers in exchange for them. Almost makes me wonder if we could get free moves remembered for life if we toss the whole Luvdisc at him. All the Heart Scales he could ever want. Almost, but not quite.
I did Hoenn pokemon only, not non-native pokemon that also live in Hoenn. But I can do those at a later time.
Also, Volt Switch is all but confirmed to be Wattson's TM.
breh
強いだね
Remember that ORAS will shuffle around level ups. BW2 did that with BW movepools to make mons that had really stupid levelups viable.
Some notes:
Zigzagoon / Linoone: Nice job skipping Linoone, jerk >:(. Play Rough is neat. Could be cool if GF decides to throw the poor thing a bone and give it earlier Belly Drum. Imagine Espeed by level @_@
Surskit / Masquerain: Personal bias here, but I think that Masquerain is probably viable this gen. You now get Bubblebeam relatively early and actually have STAB that's not physical. Scald is a learnable tm. I think you're underestimating how great Quiver Dance is; it makes literally any Pokemon an ingame god. I imagine that Air Slash will also probably get to a lower point in its level up (same goes for Bug Buzz, I imagine). Early Struggle Bug would be great.
Slakoth / Vigoroth / Slaking: You can abuse the switch prompt with Return / Giga Impact if you kill something (not unlikely given 102 or 150 BP coming from 160 base attack), so they're actually pretty good if you can get past Slakoth. Vigoroth can hold evio if you want entertainment.
Mawile: How good this is is determined entirely by when you get its mega stone. Even with Iron Head / Play Rough, it's still really mediocre. It doesn't get any strong moves or STABs until Fallarbor. Getting this from Granite Cave makes it garbage; getting it from Origin Cave or Victory Road is probably ok since I imagine you get its mega stone by then and also even have the ability to farm heart scales from the luvdisc that appear nowhere but before victory road.
Plusle: This actually seems not that bad. Electro Ball substitutes for Shock Wave kinda (ignores double team but has the potential to hit harder I guess) and Encore is actually pretty cool. Nasty Plot is particularly useful for it; I could see it have nice synergy with Encore, too. How good this is depends on when it gets GK / Thunderbolt. All of this goes for Minun too, but it's weaker than Plusle for negligible gain in bulk.
Volbeat: As terrible as this looks, Tail Glow makes it decently powerful. At +3, it hits kinda hard. Shame it can't BP the boosts, but something like Signal Beam -> Bug Buzz / Tbolt / Tail Glow / filler could work.
Cacnea / Cacturne: I'm betting this thing will get its levelup fixed. Why in hell is Needle Arm at 53; that's just hilarious. Any early STAB move and early Sucker Punch especially will make it really cool. Swords Dance is also potentially great.
Kecleon: If this gets hordes, it'll be cool. Protean is annoying as fuck ingame but having STAB on everything is neat.
Shuppet / Banette: A new mega and Knock Off are neat. Gets Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch too.
Duskull / Dusclops / Dusknoir: This is honestly one of the few mons where I have no clue what the fuck GF was thinking. Dusclops makes sense as a wall in gen 3, ok. Dusknoir, for whatever reason, is a Pokemon without STAB in a generation that literally gave STAB to almost every single Pokemon that needed it. This is not usable ingame unless you desperately want to troll around with 60 BP from 100 base attack. It's awful, lol. Hilariously, best I can see is evio dusclops with Night Shade.
Tropius: At least it gets Sweet Scent that's useful now :). Leaf Blade in level up would be cool. A gimmicky idea I can see is Growth + Sunny Day (a town and a route away from Tropius) + STAB moves + Chloro.
Clamperl: Maybe Clamperl gets Shell Smash earlier now? Maybe we get DeepSeaTooth easier now? One can only hope.
Other Hoenn Dex mons:
Abra / Kadabra / Alakazam: This thing loses Shock Wave and special Thief but that doesn't stop it from being very good.
Goldeen / Seaking:FUCK YEAH SEAKING Mediocre but it now has physical Waterfall, Megahorn and Poison Jab. Neato.
Magikarp / Gyarados: Physical / Special split makes it able to sweep anything it chooses. Guarantees victory against every elite four with DD + Waterfall + Ice Fang + Filler. Mega stone will make it even more broken.
Geodude / Graveler / Golem: Better attack. Gets Rock Blast as a Geodude very early on and gives it a non-ass STAB rock move for the rest of the game. Probably still a very solid ingame contender.
Zubat / Golbat / Crobat: I kinda wish we had a mega crobat now. Gets Acrobatics and the inferior-to-Sludge-Bomb Cross Poison. Acrobatics is neat but it does not get anything good that is not Flying-type. Still, better than it was in RSE, I guess.
Tentacool / Tentacruel: A solid ingame contender as always. STAB Bubblebeam -> Surf will always be enough for it. Sludge Bomb / Wave help whenever you get them.
Machop / Machoke / Machamp: 100% Submission is ok STAB. 100% Rock Tomb is neat.
Magnemite / Magneton / Magnezone: Great Pokemon that gets more broken when you evolve it. Will be very strong ingame. Whatever TM Wattson gives, it's gonna be good for Magnezone.
Voltorb / Electrode: Ass. It can't hit a Pokemon with an Electric resist without Explosion or the godly Rollout. Still awful. Come on, give it surf or something; it's dense enough to act as a buoy...
Oddish / Gloom / Vileplume or Bellossom: Oddish starts with special acid now, which is pleasant. Vileplume is "how long do you want to delay Gloom's evolution" and Bellossom is "I caved on Vileplume because I wanted STAB above 40 BP). How good it will be is dependent on when it gets STAB TM moves.
Doduo / Dodrio: Bird loses its physical Tri Attack. At least there's nothing competing for the Return TM anymore, I guess. Stronger Fly.
Slugma / Magcargo: Worse because it loses Flamethrower for Lava Plume. I never realized how bad this thing is ingame lol; it does not evolve until LEVEL 38. Awful and sad because Magcargo is cool. Even gets Shell Smash (don't laugh; with 100 Speed EVs from Vitamins, a 15 IV and a neutral nature, it's going to outspeed somewhere around base 90s with a neutral nature and 15 IV.. not bad imo) on evolution and Ancientpower / Earth Power with move relearner.
Grimer / Muk: Why this doesn't have Poison Jab in its levelup is beyond me. Poison Jab TM placement changes how good it is.
Sandshrew: Magnitude alone makes this so much better. Slash + Magnitude is good enough until you get Return / maybe Dig. Swords Dance is cute and you have random TM moves now.
Skarmory: Awful 'til you get your slightly stronger Fly and probably decent after that. Over the gens, this thing has become a lot less impenetrable ingame. I remember it feeling really mediocre in BW2.
Igglybuff / Jigglypuff / Wigglytuff: Absolute garbage unless it gets something like Moonblast or Boomburst as level. Worse Exploud that you get later in the game. When you evolve it, it learns nothing. Dazzling Gleam TM placement determines whether it even has a shot at being nonshit.
Staryu / Starmie: Might as well evolve it the second you get it. You have Surf by this point and it learns nothing by level bar Power Gem. Surf is good enough for it and Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Psychic are all great. Same mon but still good.
Vulpix / Ninetales: Energy Ball + NP is cool. The second you get it, if you have enough Heart Scales, you can tutor it Flamethower + NP and get Energy Ball by TM. Maybe wait for Extrasensory; Calm Mind TM exists if you're too lazy to farm heart scales / there aren't any before victory road.
Pichu / Pikachu / Raichu: Catch a slave Nincada and use it to hunt for Light Balls. Grass Knot gives Pikachu more coverage and Volt Switch helps it not die on the first hit. Raichu is faster!!!
Psyduck / Golduck: Still mediocre in a game with so many better Water-types.
Natu / Xatu: Still bad. 120 BP Future Sight!!!
Girafarig: You'll have good Normal STAB to teach it by then. Probably ok but not really all that much better.... I guess there's no hard decisions on dumping Return on it.
Phanpy / Donphan: Magnitude by relearner, Assurance, Rock moves, Poison Jab, freer Return TM. Not waiting for a Ground move for the whole game...
Pinsir: X-Scissor + Storm Throw + Dig + Swords Dance = not bad. Mega = horrendously broken.
Heracross: Brick Break + Close Combat + Pin Missile -> Megahorn + filler is solid. Mega is very powerful.
Rhyhorn / Rhydon / Rhyperior: Bulldoze is nice. It gets Hammer Arm after evolving.
Corsola: Still garbage. Hustle is funny but still very bad.
Chinchou / Lanturn: Gets Discharge if you want it as well as Signal Beam.
Horsea / Seadra / Kingdra: "How many Heart Scales do you have for Dpulse?" or "How quickly can I farm max happiness for Dmeteor?" Not fundamentally bad before due to surf, at least.
Some notes:
Zigzagoon / Linoone: Nice job skipping Linoone, jerk >:(. Play Rough is neat. Could be cool if GF decides to throw the poor thing a bone and give it earlier Belly Drum. Imagine Espeed by level @_@
Surskit / Masquerain: Personal bias here, but I think that Masquerain is probably viable this gen. You now get Bubblebeam relatively early and actually have STAB that's not physical. Scald is a learnable tm. I think you're underestimating how great Quiver Dance is; it makes literally any Pokemon an ingame god. I imagine that Air Slash will also probably get to a lower point in its level up (same goes for Bug Buzz, I imagine). Early Struggle Bug would be great.
Slakoth / Vigoroth / Slaking: You can abuse the switch prompt with Return / Giga Impact if you kill something (not unlikely given 102 or 150 BP coming from 160 base attack), so they're actually pretty good if you can get past Slakoth. Vigoroth can hold evio if you want entertainment.
Mawile: How good this is is determined entirely by when you get its mega stone. Even with Iron Head / Play Rough, it's still really mediocre. It doesn't get any strong moves or STABs until Fallarbor. Getting this from Granite Cave makes it garbage; getting it from Origin Cave or Victory Road is probably ok since I imagine you get its mega stone by then and also even have the ability to farm heart scales from the luvdisc that appear nowhere but before victory road.
Plusle: This actually seems not that bad. Electro Ball substitutes for Shock Wave kinda (ignores double team but has the potential to hit harder I guess) and Encore is actually pretty cool. Nasty Plot is particularly useful for it; I could see it have nice synergy with Encore, too. How good this is depends on when it gets GK / Thunderbolt. All of this goes for Minun too, but it's weaker than Plusle for negligible gain in bulk.
Volbeat: As terrible as this looks, Tail Glow makes it decently powerful. At +3, it hits kinda hard. Shame it can't BP the boosts, but something like Signal Beam -> Bug Buzz / Tbolt / Tail Glow / filler could work.
Cacnea / Cacturne: I'm betting this thing will get its levelup fixed. Why in hell is Needle Arm at 53; that's just hilarious. Any early STAB move and early Sucker Punch especially will make it really cool. Swords Dance is also potentially great.
Kecleon: If this gets hordes, it'll be cool. Protean is annoying as fuck ingame but having STAB on everything is neat.
Shuppet / Banette: A new mega and Knock Off are neat. Gets Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch too.
Duskull / Dusclops / Dusknoir: This is honestly one of the few mons where I have no clue what the fuck GF was thinking. Dusclops makes sense as a wall in gen 3, ok. Dusknoir, for whatever reason, is a Pokemon without STAB in a generation that literally gave STAB to almost every single Pokemon that needed it. This is not usable ingame unless you desperately want to troll around with 60 BP from 100 base attack. It's awful, lol. Hilariously, best I can see is evio dusclops with Night Shade.
Tropius: At least it gets Sweet Scent that's useful now :). Leaf Blade in level up would be cool. A gimmicky idea I can see is Growth + Sunny Day (a town and a route away from Tropius) + STAB moves + Chloro.
Clamperl: Maybe Clamperl gets Shell Smash earlier now? Maybe we get DeepSeaTooth easier now? One can only hope.
Other Hoenn Dex mons:
Abra / Kadabra / Alakazam: This thing loses Shock Wave and special Thief but that doesn't stop it from being very good.
Goldeen / Seaking:
Magikarp / Gyarados: Physical / Special split makes it able to sweep anything it chooses. Guarantees victory against every elite four with DD + Waterfall + Ice Fang + Filler. Mega stone will make it even more broken.
Geodude / Graveler / Golem: Better attack. Gets Rock Blast as a Geodude very early on and gives it a non-ass STAB rock move for the rest of the game. Probably still a very solid ingame contender.
Zubat / Golbat / Crobat: I kinda wish we had a mega crobat now. Gets Acrobatics and the inferior-to-Sludge-Bomb Cross Poison. Acrobatics is neat but it does not get anything good that is not Flying-type. Still, better than it was in RSE, I guess.
Tentacool / Tentacruel: A solid ingame contender as always. STAB Bubblebeam -> Surf will always be enough for it. Sludge Bomb / Wave help whenever you get them.
Machop / Machoke / Machamp: 100% Submission is ok STAB. 100% Rock Tomb is neat.
Magnemite / Magneton / Magnezone: Great Pokemon that gets more broken when you evolve it. Will be very strong ingame. Whatever TM Wattson gives, it's gonna be good for Magnezone.
Voltorb / Electrode: Ass. It can't hit a Pokemon with an Electric resist without Explosion or the godly Rollout. Still awful. Come on, give it surf or something; it's dense enough to act as a buoy...
Oddish / Gloom / Vileplume or Bellossom: Oddish starts with special acid now, which is pleasant. Vileplume is "how long do you want to delay Gloom's evolution" and Bellossom is "I caved on Vileplume because I wanted STAB above 40 BP). How good it will be is dependent on when it gets STAB TM moves.
Doduo / Dodrio: Bird loses its physical Tri Attack. At least there's nothing competing for the Return TM anymore, I guess. Stronger Fly.
Slugma / Magcargo: Worse because it loses Flamethrower for Lava Plume. I never realized how bad this thing is ingame lol; it does not evolve until LEVEL 38. Awful and sad because Magcargo is cool. Even gets Shell Smash (don't laugh; with 100 Speed EVs from Vitamins, a 15 IV and a neutral nature, it's going to outspeed somewhere around base 90s with a neutral nature and 15 IV.. not bad imo) on evolution and Ancientpower / Earth Power with move relearner.
Grimer / Muk: Why this doesn't have Poison Jab in its levelup is beyond me. Poison Jab TM placement changes how good it is.
Sandshrew: Magnitude alone makes this so much better. Slash + Magnitude is good enough until you get Return / maybe Dig. Swords Dance is cute and you have random TM moves now.
Skarmory: Awful 'til you get your slightly stronger Fly and probably decent after that. Over the gens, this thing has become a lot less impenetrable ingame. I remember it feeling really mediocre in BW2.
Igglybuff / Jigglypuff / Wigglytuff: Absolute garbage unless it gets something like Moonblast or Boomburst as level. Worse Exploud that you get later in the game. When you evolve it, it learns nothing. Dazzling Gleam TM placement determines whether it even has a shot at being nonshit.
Staryu / Starmie: Might as well evolve it the second you get it. You have Surf by this point and it learns nothing by level bar Power Gem. Surf is good enough for it and Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Psychic are all great. Same mon but still good.
Vulpix / Ninetales: Energy Ball + NP is cool. The second you get it, if you have enough Heart Scales, you can tutor it Flamethower + NP and get Energy Ball by TM. Maybe wait for Extrasensory; Calm Mind TM exists if you're too lazy to farm heart scales / there aren't any before victory road.
Pichu / Pikachu / Raichu: Catch a slave Nincada and use it to hunt for Light Balls. Grass Knot gives Pikachu more coverage and Volt Switch helps it not die on the first hit. Raichu is faster!!!
Psyduck / Golduck: Still mediocre in a game with so many better Water-types.
Natu / Xatu: Still bad. 120 BP Future Sight!!!
Girafarig: You'll have good Normal STAB to teach it by then. Probably ok but not really all that much better.... I guess there's no hard decisions on dumping Return on it.
Phanpy / Donphan: Magnitude by relearner, Assurance, Rock moves, Poison Jab, freer Return TM. Not waiting for a Ground move for the whole game...
Pinsir: X-Scissor + Storm Throw + Dig + Swords Dance = not bad. Mega = horrendously broken.
Heracross: Brick Break + Close Combat + Pin Missile -> Megahorn + filler is solid. Mega is very powerful.
Rhyhorn / Rhydon / Rhyperior: Bulldoze is nice. It gets Hammer Arm after evolving.
Corsola: Still garbage. Hustle is funny but still very bad.
Chinchou / Lanturn: Gets Discharge if you want it as well as Signal Beam.
Horsea / Seadra / Kingdra: "How many Heart Scales do you have for Dpulse?" or "How quickly can I farm max happiness for Dmeteor?" Not fundamentally bad before due to surf, at least.
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Hoenn really does need better Fire-types as the only one really worth it is Blaziken. Outside of the Torchic family in the original Hoenn Dex, we have are Camerupt (which is okay), Magcargo (which is terrible), Torkoal (not as good as Camerupt), and Ninetales. The best one of those is Ninetales since it is the only one who isn't painfully slow. The weirdest thing is that the remaining three are all defensive Fire-types, which is odd as Fire isn't the best type for that (the only one I can think of that is worst is Ice, though Game Freak likes to make tons of those, too). Hell, two of them (Camerupt and Magcargo) are x4 weak to Water. There are 200 Pokémon in the Hoenn Dex (not counting Jirachi and Deoxys) and 46 of them are Water-types. An x4 weakness to Water is just horrible.
Well, it still isn't as bad as the original Sinnoh Dex (where the only Fire-types were Infernape and Rapidash).
Well, it still isn't as bad as the original Sinnoh Dex (where the only Fire-types were Infernape and Rapidash).
Once again, this thread is meant to discuss changes to Pokémon that are in the Hoenn Pokédex, it is not meant as a general ORAS speculation thread. All posts should attempt to answer the question found in the OP.
IcyMan28 and breh, I love how dedicated you were to covering the "entirety" of the Hoenn dex. These are the types of posts that I was hoping for. Good on you!
These are the two from breh's list that most interested me:
IcyMan28 and breh, I love how dedicated you were to covering the "entirety" of the Hoenn dex. These are the types of posts that I was hoping for. Good on you!
These are the two from breh's list that most interested me:
Zubat was pretty much never used in RSE because it had no early Flying-STAB of which to speak. Now, Zubat gets access to Wing Attack at Lv15, making it a pretty good choice for Brawly. Another big issue I had with the Zubat line in the original games was that Zubat and Golbat could not learn Fly. Game Freak fixed this in HGSS, meaning Zubat will have a bit more utility come ORAS.
Doduo was another Pokémon I frequently used in RSE due to access to immediate physical Tri Attack. I'm pretty saddened that this'll no longer be the case as it was a pretty awesome move. Double Hit comes at roughly the same level, but it has lower BP and lower accuracy making it a completely inferior choice... that being said, it's an option depending on when we get the Return TM (Fallarbor or Pacifidlog). Drill Peck comes even later in XY than it did in RSE, so it seems like boosted Fly and potential access to Roost are the only things going for Doduo. :(
Im not that experienced in RSE, but IcyMan28 reminded me of a very important change in game mechanics:
Poisoned Pokemon do not loose health by walking anymore => Guts Taillow does not need to hunt for a burn, since Poison is a very common status in the earlygame and Poison Heal Breloom has now access to everlasting healing!
That should make both of them big contenders for High Tier in ORAS.
Poisoned Pokemon do not loose health by walking anymore => Guts Taillow does not need to hunt for a burn, since Poison is a very common status in the earlygame and Poison Heal Breloom has now access to everlasting healing!
That should make both of them big contenders for High Tier in ORAS.
Hopefully we'll get more pokemon with boomburst. Off the top of my head wigglytuff line, magnemite line, voltorb line make sense from a flavour point of view. XY also gave us a some no non legendary signature moves i'm excited about: Parting shot and topsy-turvy come to mind.
Hidden power might have more use this time around depending on when we get it. It's always a 60bp move now so getting ice/grass/fire hp won't be as tedious which should make certain pokemon more viable.
Hidden power might have more use this time around depending on when we get it. It's always a 60bp move now so getting ice/grass/fire hp won't be as tedious which should make certain pokemon more viable.
On the other hand, grinding for Wing Attack at 21 meant you only needed one more level for Golbat, and since you did so much grinding with it, generally it didn't take long for Crobat after that.
I see no reason for Hidden Power to be moved from where it was originally obtained in RSE - Fortree City. However, I can see a tweak to the old lady that gives it to you in that she'll also tell you what type it is on any given Pokemon you have her check. That said, you still have to be lucky enough for the Pokemon you want to teach it to to actually have the necessary IV combination of evens and odds for the desired Hidden Power type in game. Its set BP may help slightly, but the bigger difference is being always special. Sceptile can enjoy whatever type it gets out of it, and Magnezone as well, but Aggron and Golem want nothing to do with it for example. Viability of some Pokemon will depend on which ones have their move pools adjusted from X/Y, and how beneficial said adjustment is. As well as when the new TMs never before seen in RSE become available. I don't think we'll find Smack Down (replaced Iron Tail as TM 23 in gen 5 onward) in Meteor Falls right away as an example.
Infinite Bulk Up (likely still given out by Brawly unless they want to give him Power Up Punch) can make lots of physical Pokemon pretty darn tanky, and the same can be said for infinite Calm Mind (given by Tate & Liza) for special Pokemon. The latter would be very helpful for Camerupt in tandem with Solid Rock. (Simple Numel evolve into Solid Rock Camerupt)
We've mentioned gym leader/elite four changes but haven't addressed Team Aqua/Magma at all. In the original RSE they both had Mightyena, Crobat, and Camerupt/Sharpedo respectively. Since we don't have anything else to go on (other than a longing look at a mega-stone-like item in the trailers), I'm running with the teams not changing for the sake of discussion.
Originally both were jokes. Absolute jokes. Sharpedo's only attack was Slash, Camerupt has quad-water weakness in the land of the water tribe, and their only strategy was to throw swagger around like it was going out of style. Not a bad idea in reality, but not so much in Pokemon. Then comes the gen shifts...
First off, Mightyena and Crobat. Mightyena will probably still just exist to invalidate it's own intimidate with swagger, but at least in now has STAB crunch to do something with. Depending on how much of a challenge Gamefreak wants to give, it could have the elemental fangs for a surprise factor (and a well-rounded moveset for a shock). Crobat has been mentioned before and I doubt will change too much, but the potential to upgrade Wing Attack to Acrobatics and Cross Poison could give us a real monster if you don't resist flying with that speed.
For signature 'mons, Camerupt could have Solid Rock but the water weakness still defeats any chance of a challenge. Although it could have fissure if Gamefreak decided to be cold and heartless... Sharpedo gets the award for most improved. STABs working off it's better stat, potential for speed boost, Aqua Jet to pick off weakened targets, Ice Fang and Earthquake for coverage, this thing won't be steamrolled like before.
While there is a lot left to confirm, I think it is clear that Archie and Maxie will not be as easy as they used to be.
Originally both were jokes. Absolute jokes. Sharpedo's only attack was Slash, Camerupt has quad-water weakness in the land of the water tribe, and their only strategy was to throw swagger around like it was going out of style. Not a bad idea in reality, but not so much in Pokemon. Then comes the gen shifts...
First off, Mightyena and Crobat. Mightyena will probably still just exist to invalidate it's own intimidate with swagger, but at least in now has STAB crunch to do something with. Depending on how much of a challenge Gamefreak wants to give, it could have the elemental fangs for a surprise factor (and a well-rounded moveset for a shock). Crobat has been mentioned before and I doubt will change too much, but the potential to upgrade Wing Attack to Acrobatics and Cross Poison could give us a real monster if you don't resist flying with that speed.
For signature 'mons, Camerupt could have Solid Rock but the water weakness still defeats any chance of a challenge. Although it could have fissure if Gamefreak decided to be cold and heartless... Sharpedo gets the award for most improved. STABs working off it's better stat, potential for speed boost, Aqua Jet to pick off weakened targets, Ice Fang and Earthquake for coverage, this thing won't be steamrolled like before.
While there is a lot left to confirm, I think it is clear that Archie and Maxie will not be as easy as they used to be.
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Only problem is if Flannery has a Torkoal/Camerupt with EQ (I doubt it, but you never know), then RIP Dig. I'd honestly say this is the biggest change to come to a remake so far with reusable TMs, a new type, AND the physical special split on top of the usual new moves/evolutions.
Why would they have a TM move that appears inside a secret cave where an ancient legendary Pokemon capable of drying up/flooding all the world lives when you only want to explore a desert and challenge your father now?
Chuck's Primeape gained Rock Slide (TM), Pryce's Seel and Dewgong gained Snore (Tutor) and Sleep Talk (TM) respectively, and Claire's Dragonair gained Fire Blast (TM). There are likely more additions among the Kanto gym leaders.
Salamence could be more useful in this game. While you still do get it late in the game it can have more uses. Dragon Claw now runs of it's higher attack stat and the TM for it is available right when you catch it. With now infinite TM's you can freely teach it Earthquake which you should have by now for a strong coverage move. Also Flannery will most likely give out Flamethrower or Fire Blast TM since Overheat lost it's TM status. This is good news for Salamence as it learns both Flamethrower and Fire Blast but not Overheat. These are already 3 useful moves and the last one could be any of Fly, Aerial Ace or even Rock Slide. Will this be enough to make Salamence worth using in ORAS though since it still comes late as heck.
Since when is Overheat no longer a TM? What grounds are you basing that off of?
In X and Y, Overheat is still TM 50 - as it has always been since its introduction in RS - and is found in the Kiloude City Pokemon Center, at the Poke Mart counter in the back.
Oh wow I thought it lost it's TM status around generation 5. Well that was a derp on my part then.